GNU bug report logs - #12973
@: overused in manual

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 11:25:21 -0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Tags: patch
Severity: minor

The Emacs manual uses "@:" in many places where it needn't.
Sometimes the @: has no effect, e.g., "Jay K.@: Adams".
Other times, it's being used in places where punctuation
would be better, e.g., "(e.g.@: spaces)".  I'm attaching a
proposed patch.

[at-colon.txt.gz (application/x-gzip, attachment)]

Message #8 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:46:47 +0200

> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 11:25:21 -0800
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
> 
> The Emacs manual uses "@:" in many places where it needn't.
> Sometimes the @: has no effect, e.g., "Jay K.@: Adams".

Why do you say it has no effect in this case?

Message #11 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:50:34 -0800

On 11/23/2012 11:46 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Why do you say it has no effect in this case?

It has no effect in TeX because TeX already does
the right thing with initials.  TeX assumes that
"." ends a sentence unless it's preceded by a capital
letter.  "Jay K. Adams" has a capital letter before
the period so no @: is needed after the period.

Message #14 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 23:47:20 +0200

> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:50:34 -0800
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
> CC: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On 11/23/2012 11:46 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Why do you say it has no effect in this case?
> 
> It has no effect in TeX because TeX already does
> the right thing with initials.  TeX assumes that
> "." ends a sentence unless it's preceded by a capital
> letter.  "Jay K. Adams" has a capital letter before
> the period so no @: is needed after the period.

This ought to be in the Texinfo manual, then.  I suggest to report
this to Texinfo maintainers, because the latest manual doesn't mention
that.

Message #17 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 00:51:27 +0100

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 12:50:34 -0800 Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu> wrote:

> On 11/23/2012 11:46 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Why do you say it has no effect in this case?
>
> It has no effect in TeX because TeX already does
> the right thing with initials.  TeX assumes that
> "." ends a sentence unless it's preceded by a capital
> letter.  "Jay K. Adams" has a capital letter before
> the period so no @: is needed after the period.

What does TeX do with sentences like these:

"Mary would never do that, nor would I.  Would you?"
"We met the mysterious Madame X.  She's younger than I thought."
"Walk ten paces to point A.  Turn left, then walk 7 paces to point B."

Steve Berman

Message #20 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 15:56:08 -0800

On 11/23/2012 03:51 PM, Stephen Berman wrote:
> What does TeX do with sentences like these:
> 
> "Mary would never do that, nor would I.  Would you?"
> "We met the mysterious Madame X.  She's younger than I thought."
> "Walk ten paces to point A.  Turn left, then walk 7 paces to point B."

It assumes that "I.", "X.", "A.", and "B." do not end sentences.
To fix this in Texinfo, use "I@." instead of "I.", and similarly
for the others.

This is documented in the Texinfo manual, though apparently the
documentation isn't clear enough.

Message #23 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:11:53 +0100

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 15:56:08 -0800 Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu> wrote:

> On 11/23/2012 03:51 PM, Stephen Berman wrote:
>> What does TeX do with sentences like these:
>> 
>> "Mary would never do that, nor would I.  Would you?"
>> "We met the mysterious Madame X.  She's younger than I thought."
>> "Walk ten paces to point A.  Turn left, then walk 7 paces to point B."
>
> It assumes that "I.", "X.", "A.", and "B." do not end sentences.
> To fix this in Texinfo, use "I@." instead of "I.", and similarly
> for the others.
>
> This is documented in the Texinfo manual, though apparently the
> documentation isn't clear enough.

I hadn't actually looked before, but I just did, and it's quite clear in
(texinfo)Ending a Sentence.

Steve Berman

Message #26 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 20:43:14 -0500

    It has no effect in TeX because TeX already does
    the right thing with initials.  TeX assumes that
    "." ends a sentence unless it's preceded by a capital
    letter.  "Jay K. Adams" has a capital letter before
    the period so no @: is needed after the period.

Maybe other Texinfo formatters do not treat the capital letter as
special.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call

Message #29 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:03:33 -0500

Paul Eggert wrote:

> Other times, it's being used in places where punctuation
> would be better, e.g., "(e.g.@: spaces)".

Stylistically, I prefer the current form in at least some cases.

Anyway, I think a patch of this kind if applied to trunk is likely to
lead to repeated merge conflicts coming from emacs-24. So maybe wait
till there is no active branch.

Message #32 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
Cc: eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 08:32:10 +0200

> From: Stephen Berman <stephen.berman <at> gmx.net>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,  12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 01:11:53 +0100
> 
> On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 15:56:08 -0800 Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu> wrote:
> 
> > On 11/23/2012 03:51 PM, Stephen Berman wrote:
> >> What does TeX do with sentences like these:
> >> 
> >> "Mary would never do that, nor would I.  Would you?"
> >> "We met the mysterious Madame X.  She's younger than I thought."
> >> "Walk ten paces to point A.  Turn left, then walk 7 paces to point B."
> >
> > It assumes that "I.", "X.", "A.", and "B." do not end sentences.
> > To fix this in Texinfo, use "I@." instead of "I.", and similarly
> > for the others.
> >
> > This is documented in the Texinfo manual, though apparently the
> > documentation isn't clear enough.
> 
> I hadn't actually looked before, but I just did, and it's quite clear in
> (texinfo)Ending a Sentence.

But if one looks up @:, which is in another section, they will not see
that "X." doesn't need a @:.  And that is a problem, because "Not
Ending a Sentence" should have pointed to "Ending a Sentence" or told
explicitly that @: is not required in those cases.

Message #35 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 08:33:12 +0200

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 21:03:33 -0500
> Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Paul Eggert wrote:
> 
> > Other times, it's being used in places where punctuation
> > would be better, e.g., "(e.g.@: spaces)".
> 
> Stylistically, I prefer the current form in at least some cases.

Me too (which isn't surprising, since I wrote some of them ;-).

Message #38 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 22:45:40 -0800

> maybe wait till there is no active branch.

Yes, it sounds good to wait.

>> Stylistically, I prefer the current form in at least some cases.
> Me too (which isn't surprising, since I wrote some of them ;-).

I got the suggestion of putting a comma after "i.e." and after "e.g."
from RMS, many years ago.  RMS's style agrees with that of the
Chicago Manual of Style, the Columbia Guide to Standard American
English, the Lynch Guide to Grammar, and the Blue Book on Grammar
and Punctuation, among others.

American style guides seem to prefer the commas almost universally.
British guides are not that way (Fowler 3rd, in particular, says to omit
comma after i.e.; it says nothing about e.g.).  The Emacs manual
is written in American English, though, not in British English.

Message #41 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: rgm <at> gnu.org, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 09:44:52 +0200

> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2012 22:45:40 -0800
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
> CC: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> American style guides seem to prefer the commas almost universally.
> British guides are not that way (Fowler 3rd, in particular, says to omit
> comma after i.e.; it says nothing about e.g.).  The Emacs manual
> is written in American English, though, not in British English.

It is pointless to argue about personal style preferences.

In any case, in my experience, this kind of changes is quickly made
futile by future changes to the manuals that re-introduce comma-less
e.g. and i.e. back into the text.  So if we want to adhere to the
style that prefers the comma, we should IMO install some change that
enforces these rules, to be run at "make info" time and flag any
deviations.

Message #44 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:17:02 -0500

> In any case, in my experience, this kind of changes is quickly made
> futile by future changes to the manuals that re-introduce comma-less
> e.g. and i.e. back into the text.  So if we want to adhere to the
> style that prefers the comma, we should IMO install some change that
> enforces these rules, to be run at "make info" time and flag any
> deviations.

And I think we had better just ignore those differences and move on.
Enforcing such rules is a waste of time.


        Stefan

Message #47 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 17:45:14 +0200

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>,  12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 10:17:02 -0500
> 
> > In any case, in my experience, this kind of changes is quickly made
> > futile by future changes to the manuals that re-introduce comma-less
> > e.g. and i.e. back into the text.  So if we want to adhere to the
> > style that prefers the comma, we should IMO install some change that
> > enforces these rules, to be run at "make info" time and flag any
> > deviations.
> 
> And I think we had better just ignore those differences and move on.

Ignore them and install the changes proposed by Paul, or ignore them
and don't install?

Message #50 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:37:14 -0500

    But if one looks up @:, which is in another section, they will not see
    that "X." doesn't need a @:.  And that is a problem, because "Not
    Ending a Sentence" should have pointed to "Ending a Sentence" or told
    explicitly that @: is not required in those cases.

I explicitly decided NOT to say this.  I don't remember for certain
why I made that decision, but it was not an omission.  Maybe it
was to simplify the rules for Texinfo; maybe it is for some
other formatter's sake.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call

Message #53 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:37:26 -0500

Consistent style and proper usage do not alone make a manual good, but
the lack of them makes any manual worse.  We should correct these
style issues for each Emacs release.

It would be good to invite some people who are good at this
to do the work and install the fixes directly.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call

Message #56 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 12:31:11 -0800

On 11/23/2012 05:43 PM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> Maybe other Texinfo formatters do not treat the capital letter as
> special.

As far as I know, they're all consistent in this matter,
i.e., all formatters treat the "Q." in "John Q. Smith"
as not ending a sentence, and none of them insert extra
space after the "Q.".

In hindsight, perhaps Texinfo should also have been consistent
about the way that it formats "Write it in C.  The compile it."
That is, perhaps it should have formatted that "C.<space><space>"
as end of sentence, regardless of what TeX would do with the same
input.  But I suppose it's too late to change that now.

Message #59 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 15:35:04 -0500

> Ignore them and install the changes proposed by Paul, or ignore them
> and don't install?

Whichever gets us to "move on" more quickly.


        Stefan

Message #62 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 22:39:33 +0200

> Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:37:14 -0500
> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> CC: stephen.berman <at> gmx.net, eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>     But if one looks up @:, which is in another section, they will not see
>     that "X." doesn't need a @:.  And that is a problem, because "Not
>     Ending a Sentence" should have pointed to "Ending a Sentence" or told
>     explicitly that @: is not required in those cases.
> 
> I explicitly decided NOT to say this.  I don't remember for certain
> why I made that decision, but it was not an omission.

That suggests we shouldn't make those parts of the proposed changes,
where initials are involved.

Message #65 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 16:46:34 -0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 11/24/2012 10:37 AM, Richard Stallman wrote:
> We should correct these style issues for each Emacs release.

Our release strategy makes it difficult to fix these style
changes now: if we made changes like these, either to
the trunk or to the emacs-24 branch, that'd make it harder
to merge other emacs-24 changes into the trunk later.  For
this reason it's been suggested that I hold off on changes
like these, I guess until after the next Emacs release.

While we're on the topic, the Emacs manual has similar problems with
"@.".  Sometimes it uses "@." when it's not necessary, or even
incorrect (the attached patch at-dot1.txt fixes instances of this
that I found).  More often, the manual incorrectly omits "@."
(see attached patch at-dot.txt.gz).

I'm attaching a combined patch at-combined.txt.gz to make it
easier for me to remember about installing these patches later.
I'm not installing these patches now, though, for the reasons
discussed above.

[at-dot1.txt (text/plain, attachment)]

[at-dot.txt.gz (application/x-gzip, attachment)]

[at-combined.txt.gz (application/x-gzip, attachment)]

Message #68 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [TRUNCATED MESSAGE 2692 191817] bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2012 23:47:09 -0500

    > We should correct these style issues for each Emacs release.

    Our release strategy makes it difficult to fix these style
    changes now: if we made changes like these, either to
    the trunk or to the emacs-24 branch, that'd make it harder
    to merge other emacs-24 changes into the trunk later.

I don't think we are talking about the same thing.

You seem to be criticizing a specific plan for installing the changes
into the Bzr repository.  I'm not talking about mechanics like that.
I'm saying that someone should edit the manual for style and usage for
each release.  Precisely when in the release style is a detail that I
leave to others, but I would normally do it before making a separate
branch for a given release.  If it is done after that, the changes 
should be installed in both the trunk and the branch.

    While we're on the topic, the Emacs manual has similar problems with
    "@.".  Sometimes it uses "@." when it's not necessary, 

An unnecessary use of @. is not an error.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call

Message #71 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: rms <at> gnu.org, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 14:16:08 -0500

Paul Eggert wrote:

> Our release strategy makes it difficult to fix these style changes
> now: if we made changes like these, either to the trunk or to the
> emacs-24 branch, that'd make it harder to merge other emacs-24 changes
> into the trunk later.

There's zero problem wrt merging if the changes go to emacs-24 now.
If they go trunk, they will probably create repeated merge annoyances
(like any pervasive formatting change would).

Message #74 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>, 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 14:17:12 -0500

Richard Stallman wrote:

> I'm saying that someone should edit the manual for style and usage for
> each release.

People do.

Message #77 received at 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: 12973 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2012 20:31:46 -0500

Glenn Morris wrote:

> There's zero problem wrt merging if the changes go to emacs-24 now.

In fact I suggest you just do that so that we can stop discussing this.

Message #82 received at 12973-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 12973-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#12973: @: overused in manual
Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2012 14:31:35 -0800

On 11/25/12 17:31, Glenn Morris wrote:
> In fact I suggest you just do that so that we can stop discussing this.

Done, as emacs-24 bzr 110998, and I'm
marking this bug as done.

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