GNU bug report logs - #15095
24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:48:37 -0500

This bug report is regarding the usability of the menu system. The
"Tools" menu has three options for mail/news:

    - Read Net News (Gnus)
    - Read Mail (RMAIL)
    - Send Mail (with Gnus Message)   C-x m

Any user new to Emacs would, reasonably in my view, ask, "Why do I read
Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus Message (is that different
from just Gnus?) but read mail with RMAIL?" My recommendation is to
eliminate a specific "Send Mail" menu item, since I think most people
think of reading and sending mail together as a single task.  We'd then
have two items, something like:

     - Read/Send Mail & Net News (Gnus)
     - Read/Send Mail (RMAIL)


In GNU Emacs 24.2.1 (x86_64-unknown-openbsd, GTK+ Version 2.24.14)
 of 2013-02-26 on amd64.ports.openbsd.org
Configured using:
 `configure '--build=amd64-unknown-openbsd' '--without-compress-info'
 '--with-x-toolkit=gtk' '--prefix=/usr/local' '--sysconfdir=/etc'
 '--mandir=/usr/local/man' '--infodir=/usr/local/info'
 '--localstatedir=/var' '--disable-silent-rules'
 'build_alias=amd64-unknown-openbsd' 'CC=cc' 'CFLAGS=-O2 -pipe -fno-pie'
 'LDFLAGS=-L/usr/local/lib -nopie' 'CPPFLAGS=-I/usr/local/include
 -I/usr/local/include/libpng -DHAVE_SOUND''

Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: nil
  value of $LC_COLLATE: nil
  value of $LC_CTYPE: nil
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: nil
  value of $LC_MONETARY: nil
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: nil
  value of $LC_TIME: nil
  value of $LANG: nil
  value of $XMODIFIERS: nil
  locale-coding-system: nil
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
i g h t l y SPC m o r e SPC c o m p l i c a t e d , 
SPC s i n c e SPC i t SPC g i v e s SPC a SPC r e s 
o DEL DEL a s o n a b l e SPC DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL 
DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL 
DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL DEL : SPC SPC 
I SPC g o t SPC " p e r m i s s i o n SPC d e n i e 
d " SPC o n SPC W i n d o w s , SPC b u t SPC C-c k 
C-x k RET y e s RET ESC [ 5 ~ ESC [ 5 ~ c y RET RET 
SPC SPC SPC ESC O B ESC O A SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC 
SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC ESC O B RET SPC SPC SPC SPC 
ESC O B RET ESC O B RET ESC O B ESC O B ESC O B ESC 
O B ESC O A ESC O A ESC O A RET SPC SPC SPC SPC ESC 
O B RET SPC ESC O B RET SPC ESC O B RET SPC DEL SPC 
ESC O B RET SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC SPC ESC O B RET SPC 
DEL ESC O B ESC [ 6 ~ c y ESC O A ESC O A c y q y ESC 
x e m a c s - r e p o r t - b u g RET C-a C-k r e p 
o r t - e m TAB RET

Recent messages:
Auto-saving...done
Mark all unread articles as read? (y or n)  y
Mark all unread articles in gmane.comp.version-control.fossil-scm.user as read? (y or n)  y
Are you sure you want to quit reading news? (y or n)  y
Saving file /home/carson/.newsrc...
Wrote /home/carson/.newsrc
Saving /home/carson/.newsrc.eld...
Saving file /home/carson/.newsrc.eld...
Wrote /home/carson/.newsrc.eld
Saving /home/carson/.newsrc.eld...done

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow emacsbug vc-fossil vc ediff-merg ediff-diff ediff-wind
ediff-help ediff-util ediff-mult ediff-init ediff vc-dispatcher
flow-fill newcomment qp mule-util sort gnus-cite mail-extr gnus-async
gnus-bcklg gnus-ml disp-table nndraft nnmh nnmbox utf-7 gnutls nnimap
utf7 nnfolder parse-time netrc network-stream auth-source eieio byte-opt
bytecomp byte-compile cconv macroexp assoc starttls tls gnus-agent
gnus-srvr gnus-score score-mode nnvirtual gnus-msg gnus-art mm-uu
mml2015 mm-view mml-smime smime password-cache dig mailcap nntp
gnus-cache gnus-sum nnoo gnus-group gnus-undo nnmail mail-source
epg-config gnus-start gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range message idna
sendmail format-spec rfc822 mml mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode
mail-parse rfc2231 rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mailabbrev gmm-utils
mailheader gnus-win gnus gnus-ems nnheader gnus-util mail-utils mm-util
mail-prsvr wid-edit time-date fvwm-mode easymenu bbdb-loaddefs ledger
derived pcomplete comint regexp-opt ansi-color ring esh-arg esh-util
package tabulated-list tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type
mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image fringe lisp-mode register
page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock
font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang
misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew
greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese
case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer loaddefs
button faces cus-face files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64
format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable
backquote make-network-process dbusbind dynamic-setting
system-font-setting font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x
multi-tty emacs)

Message #8 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 21:05:00 +0300

> From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 11:48:37 -0500
> 
> This bug report is regarding the usability of the menu system. The
> "Tools" menu has three options for mail/news:
> 
>     - Read Net News (Gnus)
>     - Read Mail (RMAIL)
>     - Send Mail (with Gnus Message)   C-x m
> 
> Any user new to Emacs would, reasonably in my view, ask, "Why do I read
> Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus Message (is that different
> from just Gnus?) but read mail with RMAIL?" My recommendation is to
> eliminate a specific "Send Mail" menu item, since I think most people
> think of reading and sending mail together as a single task.  We'd then
> have two items, something like:
> 
>      - Read/Send Mail & Net News (Gnus)
>      - Read/Send Mail (RMAIL)

That's not really the issue here.  The real problem is that the "Gnus"
part of "Gnus Message" is misleading: message.el is a package that was
developed as part of Gnus, but you can send email with it without
firing up Gnus.  Since a few versions ago, Emacs uses message.el as
the default way of sending email (it was sendmail.el before).

Another issue that might be confusing here is that you can start mail
composition and send it without reading any email before that.  That's
why there are 2 menu items instead of one.

Finally, Rmail cannot send mail, it uses either message.el or
sendmail.el for that.

Message #11 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>, 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 15:10:32 -0400

>> This bug report is regarding the usability of the menu system. The
>> "Tools" menu has three options for mail/news:
>> 
>> - Read Net News (Gnus)
>> - Read Mail (RMAIL)
>> - Send Mail (with Gnus Message)   C-x m
>> 
>> Any user new to Emacs would, reasonably in my view, ask, "Why do I read
>> Net News with Gnus and send mail with Gnus Message (is that different
>> from just Gnus?) but read mail with RMAIL?" My recommendation is to
>> eliminate a specific "Send Mail" menu item, since I think most people
>> think of reading and sending mail together as a single task.  We'd then
>> have two items, something like:
>> 
>> - Read/Send Mail & Net News (Gnus)
>> - Read/Send Mail (RMAIL)

I think "Send Mail" should be replaced with "Compose new mail".  Then it
makes more sense to have a separate entry for it.

And the (Gnus) and (RMAIL) annotations should be removed from the
menu item.  They could be moved to the :help-echo thingy, but they need
to make it clear that it's just the currently configured "backend".

> That's not really the issue here.  The real problem is that the "Gnus"
> part of "Gnus Message" is misleading: message.el is a package that was

Indeed, the name should just be "Message".


        Stefan

Message #14 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:49:57 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Another issue that might be confusing here is that you can start mail
> composition and send it without reading any email before that.  That's
> why there are 2 menu items instead of one.

I agree (of course) that that's what's going on and why there are
currently two menu items.  My contention, though, is that the kind of
people who are apt to be confused are the same people who don't want to,
or rather don't think to, send mail without going to the mail function.
Put another way, "Send a mail message while in the text editing mode"
sounds strange unless you already know how Emacs handles sending mail,
whereas "Take me to the mail functionality so I can send a mail message
(and maybe read some too)" makes more sense to a user without much
experience of Emacs.

> Finally, Rmail cannot send mail, it uses either message.el or
> sendmail.el for that.

I think that for purposes of the discussion here, that's a distinction
without a difference (though of course it's an important difference in
another context).  If I'm a new user, I start up Rmail to read my mail,
and then reply to a message, am I going to know or care that Rmail is
actually calling message.el?  I don't think so, any more than a random
user would care that sendmail on the current system is actually exim or
smtpd.

Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via 
emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user
would.  Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail
client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no
indication that I've left Rmail.

Message #17 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>, 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT)

> I think "Send Mail" should be replaced with "Compose new mail".  Then it
> makes more sense to have a separate entry for it.

Or perhaps just "New Message"?

Message #20 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 05:44:59 +0300

> From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
> Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2013 14:49:57 -0500
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Another issue that might be confusing here is that you can start mail
> > composition and send it without reading any email before that.  That's
> > why there are 2 menu items instead of one.
> 
> I agree (of course) that that's what's going on and why there are
> currently two menu items.  My contention, though, is that the kind of
> people who are apt to be confused are the same people who don't want to,
> or rather don't think to, send mail without going to the mail function.
> Put another way, "Send a mail message while in the text editing mode"
> sounds strange unless you already know how Emacs handles sending mail,

I'm guessing everyone is nowadays aware of a function in a word
processor that sends the current document via email.  So I think you
are wrong here.

> Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via 
> emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user
> would.  Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail
> client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no
> indication that I've left Rmail.

The indication is in the mode line, as usual in Emacs.  After all,
that's how you know you are in Rmail, right?

Message #23 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:02:21 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I'm guessing everyone is nowadays aware of a function in a word
> processor that sends the current document via email.  So I think you
> are wrong here.

I have to disagree.  It's my experience--and granted, the plural of
anecdote is not data--that in an office where Microsoft Office is used
heavily, daily, nearly no one uses this functionality, even if they are
aware of it; and very few are aware of it.  I know this because messages
are by default formatted differently (for example, the signature block
is not used) if they are sent in this way.  My co-workers invariably 

   - save the file
   - open Outlook
   - compose a new message
   - locate the file in Explorer
   - drag it into the new message to attach it, and then hit "send"

I see them do it every day.

Even in LibreOffice (which is what I have on the machine I'm writing
this from), the menu item is simply "Send", which then has a submenu to
give you several choices, of which the first is "Document as Email...."
Moreover, it's in the "File" menu, which I think makes it considerably
clearer to a new user that "here is an option which will allow you to
send the current file/document via email."

>> Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via 
>> emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user
>> would.  Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail
>> client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no
>> indication that I've left Rmail.
>
> The indication is in the mode line, as usual in Emacs.  After all,
> that's how you know you are in Rmail, right?

It just says "Message."  There is no indication--again, to a user
unfamiliar with Emacs--that Message isn't just some part of Rmail.  To
be clear, I'm not saying there *should* be an indication other than the
mode line.  I'm just saying that to a new user it doesn't *matter*.

Message #26 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 18:03:08 +0300

> From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
> Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 07:02:21 -0500
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I'm guessing everyone is nowadays aware of a function in a word
> > processor that sends the current document via email.  So I think you
> > are wrong here.
> 
> I have to disagree.  It's my experience--and granted, the plural of
> anecdote is not data--that in an office where Microsoft Office is used
> heavily, daily, nearly no one uses this functionality, even if they are
> aware of it; and very few are aware of it.

My experience is almost exactly the opposite.  I get quite a few
emails whose subject is a telltale "Emailing: Something.doc".

> >> Incidentally, I didn't remember what came up, so I just tried (via 
> >> emacs -Q and then going through Rmail) to send a message like a new user
> >> would.  Emacs (presumably message.el) just prompts me to select "mail
> >> client," "transport," or "smtp" to send my message; and there is no
> >> indication that I've left Rmail.
> >
> > The indication is in the mode line, as usual in Emacs.  After all,
> > that's how you know you are in Rmail, right?
> 
> It just says "Message."  There is no indication--again, to a user
> unfamiliar with Emacs--that Message isn't just some part of Rmail.

As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode.  It
was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail.

Message #29 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:23:55 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode.  It
> was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail.

Yes, *I* know that, and *you* know that.  But my point is that this bug
report is not about me or you, it's about being confusing to a *new*
user, one who is unfamiliar with Emacs.  When I first began using Emacs
several years ago, I didn't even know what the mode line was, much less
that I should look at it.  All I knew was that Emacs was this text
editor that a lot of people talked about and which could do various
things in addition to editing text.

In any case, it seems obvious that you've already decided to leave three
menu items.  I still believe it's confusing to new users, but I've
exhausted my interest in discussing it.  Please feel free to close this
report as Will Not Fix or whatever is appropriate.

Message #32 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 20:41:28 +0300

> From: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>
> Cc: 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 12:23:55 -0500
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode.  It
> > was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail.
> 
> Yes, *I* know that, and *you* know that.  But my point is that this bug
> report is not about me or you, it's about being confusing to a *new*
> user, one who is unfamiliar with Emacs.

The mode line is described in the tutorial, which should be the first
reading.  A user who doesn't understand what is displayed in the mode
line will have much more difficult problems than to find her way in
these 3 menu items.

> In any case, it seems obvious that you've already decided to leave three
> menu items.

I didn't decide anything.  I was just giving some response and context
to this bug report.  I hope it will be useful to whoever will decide
to make the changes in the menus.

Thanks.

Message #35 received at 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Carson Chittom <carson <at> wistly.net>, 15095 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2013 16:42:42 -0400

>> > As you well know, that "Message" thing is the current major mode.  It
>> > was "Rmail" when you were in Rmail.
>> Yes, *I* know that, and *you* know that.  But my point is that this bug
>> report is not about me or you, it's about being confusing to a *new*
>> user, one who is unfamiliar with Emacs.
> The mode line is described in the tutorial, which should be the first
> reading.  A user who doesn't understand what is displayed in the mode
> line will have much more difficult problems than to find her way in
> these 3 menu items.

It's still irrelevant: whether you're in Message mode or Rmail mode has
no implication in terms of whether you're still in Rmail or not.
After all, when I'm typing my message in Message mode (opened from
Gnus), I consider myself as still being in Gnus.  Is it really the case?
Does it matter?

But yes, technically, composing and sending an email is largely separate
from reading email.  There's surprisingly little overlap from
a technical point of view between the two activities.  Also sometimes
you just want to compose an email (maybe even without having set up
mail-reading, since after all, the two require separate configuration as
well, even in MUAs like evolution).  So I think having 3 entries is
fine, but the wording could be improved and there's no reason to pollute
the menu with info about which backend is currently configured (or
about the fact that Message originally grew out of Gnus).


        Stefan

Message #40 received at 15095-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: 15095-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#15095: 24.2; mail items in Tools menu confusing to new users
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2013 02:51:37 -0400

Version: 24.4

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> I think "Send Mail" should be replaced with "Compose new mail".  Then it
> makes more sense to have a separate entry for it.
>
> And the (Gnus) and (RMAIL) annotations should be removed from the
> menu item.

Done.

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