GNU bug report logs - #16455
24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 11:28:23 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

$ emacs -Q
M-x info RET
h

Expected behaviour:
The Info command keys are listed.

For example, the man entry for Info (M-x man RET info RET) says "For a
summary of key bindings, type h within Info."

Actual behaviour:
The Emacs Info viewer goes to the tutorial ("1.2 How to use
Info"). [That is the expected behaviour with the H command not the h
command.]

Additional information:
Stand alone Info (Version: info (GNU texinfo) 5.1) behaves as expected
for both h (displays key bindings) and H (displays tutorial).

In GNU Emacs 24.3.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.8.2)
 of 2013-08-14 on buildvm-15.phx2.fedoraproject.org
Windowing system distributor `Fedora Project', version 11.0.11404000
System Description:    Fedora release 19 (Schrödinger’s Cat)

Configured using:
 `configure '--build=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu'
 '--host=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu' '--program-prefix='
 '--disable-dependency-tracking' '--prefix=/usr' '--exec-prefix=/usr'
 '--bindir=/usr/bin' '--sbindir=/usr/sbin' '--sysconfdir=/etc'
 '--datadir=/usr/share' '--includedir=/usr/include'
 '--libdir=/usr/lib64' '--libexecdir=/usr/libexec'
 '--localstatedir=/var' '--sharedstatedir=/var/lib'
 '--mandir=/usr/share/man' '--infodir=/usr/share/info' '--with-dbus'
 '--with-gif' '--with-jpeg' '--with-png' '--with-rsvg' '--with-tiff'
 '--with-xft' '--with-xpm' '--with-x-toolkit=gtk3' '--with-gpm=no'
 'build_alias=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu'
 'host_alias=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu' 'CFLAGS=-DMAIL_USE_LOCKF -O2 -g
 -pipe -Wall -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2 -fexceptions -fstack-protector
 --param=ssp-buffer-size=4 -grecord-gcc-switches -m64 -mtune=generic'
 'LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro ''

Important settings:
  value of $LC_MONETARY: en_DK.utf8
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: en_DK.utf8
  value of $LC_TIME: en_DK.utf8
  value of $LANG: en_CA.utf8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Info

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
M-x i n f o <return> h M-x r e <tab> p o r t <tab>
<return>

Recent messages:
For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.
Composing main Info directory...done
You can run the command `info' with C-h i
Composing main Info directory...done
Making completion list...

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort gnus-util mail-extr emacsbug message format-spec rfc822 mml
mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev
gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util
mail-prsvr mail-utils help-mode jka-compr info easymenu time-date
tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar
dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list newcomment lisp-mode
register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar mouse
jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian
utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean
japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian
cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev
minibuffer loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties
overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget
hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process dbusbind
dynamic-setting system-font-setting font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk
x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #8 received at 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 12:09:38 -0500

"N. Jackson" wrote:

> For example, the man entry for Info (M-x man RET info RET) says "For a
> summary of key bindings, type h within Info."

Hmm, yet the info page for info says:

   If you are new to the Info reader and want to learn how to use it,
   type the command `h' now.  It brings you to a programmed instruction
   sequence.

and

   the other contains the node `Help' which the `h' command goes to. 

And info info-stnd says:

   'h' ('get-info-help-node')

    [...] Try hard to visit the node '(info)Help'.

and does not seem to mention 'H' AFAICS.

Message #11 received at 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:45:26 -0400

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 2014-01-15 13:09, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Hmm, yet the info page for info says:
>
>     If you are new to the Info reader and want to learn how to use it,
>     type the command `h' now.  It brings you to a programmed instruction
>     sequence.

Indeed, from the command line the command "info info" pulls up a node
containing this exact text. However pressing H brings up the tutorial
whereas pressing h actually brings up the help page with the keyboard
commands that is promised by the man page and which I'm also trying
to get to by pressing h in the Emacs Info viewer.

This incredibly useful page (it is identified in the status line as
"Info: *Info Help*") begins:

   Basic Info command keys

   x           Close this help window.
   q           Quit Info altogether.
   H           Invoke the Info tutorial.

   Up          Move up one line.
   Down        Move down one line.
   DEL         Scroll backward one screenful.
   SPC         Scroll forward one screenful.
   Home        Go to the beginning of this node.
   End         Go to the end of this node.

   TAB         Skip to the next hypertext link.
   RET         Follow the hypertext link under the cursor.
   l           Go back to the last node seen in this window.

   [           Go to the previous node in the document.
   ]           Go to the next node in the document.
   p           Go to the previous node on this level.
   n           Go to the next node on this level.
   u           Go up one level.
   t           Go to the top node of this document.
   d           Go to the main `directory' node.

   1...9       Pick the first...ninth item in this node's menu.
   0           Pick the last item in this node's menu.
   m           Pick a menu item specified by name.
   r           Follow a cross reference specified by name.
   g           Go to a node specified by name.

   s           Search forward for a specified string.
   {           Search for previous occurrence.
   }           Search for next occurrence.
   i           Search for a specified string in the index, and
                 select the node referenced by the first entry found.
   I           Synthesize menu of matching index entries.

   C-g         Cancel the current operation.

Note the

   H           Invoke the Info tutorial.

And also much further down the list of keys, it says (under the
heading "Commands available in Info windows:")

   H       (get-info-help-node)Visit Info node `(info)Help'

and

   h       (get-help-window)Display help message

Clearly there are inconsistencies / documentation bugs in Info.

As far as Emacs goes though, if h rather than H is *intended* to bring
up the tutorial (which it does), then there is not an Emacs bug here,
unless there is no way to get to the list of keyboard commands (which
is arguably *the* most important page in the Info documentation). Would
it not seem to be a flaw in the Emacs Info viewer if it is not easy to
get to this information, and obvious how to do so?

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #14 received at 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 16:16:34 -0500

"N. Jackson" wrote:

> unless there is no way to get to the list of keyboard commands (which
> is arguably *the* most important page in the Info documentation). Would
> it not seem to be a flaw in the Emacs Info viewer if it is not easy to
> get to this information, and obvious how to do so?

Use standard Emacs commands for listing key bindings, eg `C-h m'.

Message #17 received at 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 23:03:46 -0400

On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> Use standard Emacs commands for listing key bindings, eg `C-h m'.

Ah! Thank you Glen. That's exactly what I wanted to see. I had no idea
that C-h m listed key bindings, I thought it just provided information
about the prevailing modes. Of course, key bindings in a mode are
information about the mode. I'd just never thought of it. I haven't
used C-h m since I ran the Emacs tutorial three and a half years ago.
From there it brings up information about fundamental mode, no obvious
key binding documentation, and I had filed the command in my head as
"rather useless"! My mistake.

So the confusion turns out to be my ignorance plus the inconsistent
Info documentation, and no bug in Emacs [Currently. Although if the
Info documentation is fixed to be self-consistent, it seems that Emacs
Info mode might need to change so that H invokes the Info tutorial?],
so please close this bug. Sorry for wasting time.

Message #20 received at 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2014 23:15:10 -0400

On Wed, Jan 15, 2014 at 11:03 PM, N. Jackson <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> Ah! Thank you Glen. ...
                    ^
Thank you Glenn.

Message #23 received at 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 03:28:03 -0500

You're welcome.

It seems to me that the standalone info program has at least a
documentation bug (it says "h" should do one thing in the --help output
and the manual page, and another in the info pages).

Also the `h' key is inconsistent wrt Emacs's info reader (if that matters).

Would you like to report it to bug-texinfo <at> gnu.org?

Message #26 received at 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 16455 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2014 12:25:14 -0400

On 2014-01-16 04:28, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Would you like to report it to bug-texinfo <at> gnu.org?

Yes. I did so [1]. I feel bad about raising such tiny issues. However,
the people most likely to be affected by this are first-time users and
I feel it's important that they not be given a negative and
inconsistent experience unnecessarily.

[1] http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-texinfo/2014-01/msg00024.html

Message #31 received at 16455-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: 16455-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16455: 24.3; (Emacs Info) h command behaves like H command
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2014 21:17:33 -0500

Version: 24.4

Emacs added the H binding for describe-mode, for compatibility with
(future versions of) standalone info.

Ref: http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-02/msg00309.html

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