GNU bug report logs - #17309
24.4.50; Typos in autotype info

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jan.synacek <at> gmail.com (Jan Synáček)
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 18:00:39 +0200

Section 4, "Skeleton Language", there is "Iff" twice in the text
describing '&' and '|'.

In GNU Emacs 24.4.50.7 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.10.8)
 of 2014-04-21 on jsynacek-ntb
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11500000
System Description:	NAME=Gentoo

Message #8 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: jan.synacek <at> gmail.com (Jan Synáček)
Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 23:50:05 +0300

> From: jan.synacek <at> gmail.com (Jan Synáček)
> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 18:00:39 +0200
> 
> 
> Section 4, "Skeleton Language", there is "Iff" twice in the text
> describing '&' and '|'.

Not typos: "iff" means "if and only if".

Message #11 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: jan.synacek <at> gmail.com (Jan Synáček)
Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 17:32:55 -0400

> Section 4, "Skeleton Language", there is "Iff" twice in the text
> describing '&' and '|'.

It's a standard mathematical expression for "if and only if".
In French, we say "ssi" instead.


        Stefan

Message #14 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: jan.synacek <at> gmail.com (Jan Synáček)
Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:42:51 -0400

> It's a standard mathematical expression for "if and only if".
> In French, we say "ssi" instead.

But yes, we should document it in the glossary,


        Stefan

Message #17 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: jan.synacek <at> gmail.com, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 05:50:14 +0300

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:42:51 -0400
> Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > It's a standard mathematical expression for "if and only if".
> > In French, we say "ssi" instead.
> 
> But yes, we should document it in the glossary,

We already do.

Message #20 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 07:48:37 +0200

On 04/22/2014 04:50 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
>> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:42:51 -0400
>> Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>>> It's a standard mathematical expression for "if and only if".
>>> In French, we say "ssi" instead.
>>
>> But yes, we should document it in the glossary,
> 
> We already do.
> 

Hmm, I didn't know that. Sorry for the noise.

-- 
Jan Synáček

Message #23 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>
To: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:37:44 +0200

On 04/22/2014 04:50 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
>> Date: Mon, 21 Apr 2014 21:42:51 -0400
>> Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>>> It's a standard mathematical expression for "if and only if".
>>> In French, we say "ssi" instead.
>>
>> But yes, we should document it in the glossary,
> 
> We already do.

I checked the glossary and this is what it says:

     "Iff" means "if and only if".  This terminology comes from
     mathematics.  Try to avoid using this term in documentation, since
     many are unfamiliar with it and mistake it for a typo.

So yes, I mistook it for a typo:) Another thing is that the Glossary
is located inside the "Emacs" info node, but I reported the bug
against the Autotype info node.

Cheers,
-- 
Jan Synáček

Message #26 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:40:43 -0400

>      "Iff" means "if and only if".  This terminology comes from
>      mathematics.  Try to avoid using this term in documentation, since
>      many are unfamiliar with it and mistake it for a typo.

Indeed, I think "iff" is perfectly fine in docstrings, but we should
refrain from using it in the Texinfo documentation.


        Stefan

Message #29 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>,
 Jan Syná?ek <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 07:48:51 -0700 (PDT)

> >      "Iff" means "if and only if".  This terminology comes from
> >      mathematics.  Try to avoid using this term in documentation, since
> >      many are unfamiliar with it and mistake it for a typo.
> 
> Indeed, I think "iff" is perfectly fine in docstrings, but we should
> refrain from using it in the Texinfo documentation.

FWIW, a different policy was decided and followed before:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2007-08/msg00306.html

Why this policy change now?

Message #32 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Nicolas Richard <theonewiththeevillook <at> yahoo.fr>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 16:51:16 +0200

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

>>      "Iff" means "if and only if".  This terminology comes from
>>      mathematics.  Try to avoid using this term in documentation, since
>>      many are unfamiliar with it and mistake it for a typo.
>
> Indeed, I think "iff" is perfectly fine in docstrings, but we should
> refrain from using it in the Texinfo documentation.

I grepped for '\biff\b' and got:
./info/message.info:625:     header.  (Iff `Cc' header is not present, `Bcc' header will be
./info/autotype.info:231:     Logical and.  Iff preceding element moved point, i.e., usually
./info/autotype.info:235:     Logical xor.  Iff preceding element didn't move point, i.e.,
(+ entries explaining it, or saying not to use it)

Having no experience with the involved packages, I don't suggest a
patch.

-- 
Nico.

Message #35 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Nicolas Richard <theonewiththeevillook <at> yahoo.fr>
To: Nicolas Richard <theonewiththeevillook <at> yahoo.fr>
Cc: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:24:16 +0200

Nicolas Richard <theonewiththeevillook <at> yahoo.fr> writes:

> Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:
>
>>>      "Iff" means "if and only if".  This terminology comes from
>>>      mathematics.  Try to avoid using this term in documentation, since
>>>      many are unfamiliar with it and mistake it for a typo.
>>
>> Indeed, I think "iff" is perfectly fine in docstrings, but we should
>> refrain from using it in the Texinfo documentation.
>
> I grepped for '\biff\b' and got:
> ./info/message.info:625:     header.  (Iff `Cc' header is not present, `Bcc' header will be
> ./info/autotype.info:231:     Logical and.  Iff preceding element moved point, i.e., usually
> ./info/autotype.info:235:     Logical xor.  Iff preceding element didn't move point, i.e.,
> (+ entries explaining it, or saying not to use it)
>
> Having no experience with the involved packages, I don't suggest a
> patch.

In view of Drew Adams' comment, here's the rest of the grep -- I removed
entries which are not part of docstrings (mostly ChangeLog, plain
comments and auto generated files) :

./lisp/progmodes/js.el:1355:variable name in the spec.  Return true iff this was actually a
./lisp/progmodes/gdb-mi.el:1982:  "Return non-nil iff STR and MATCH are equal up to the end of either strings.
./lisp/progmodes/gdb-mi.el:1992:  "Return non-nil iff CHARACTER is a numerical character between 0 and 9."
./lisp/progmodes/prolog.el:3231:    "Non-nil iff the mark is set.  Lobotomized version for Emacsen that do not provide their own."
./lisp/progmodes/sh-script.el:2363:;;  "Iff it isn't, define the current shell as abbrev table and fill that.
./lisp/url/url-parse.el:128:FULLNESS is non-nil iff the hierarchical sequence component of
./lisp/cedet/semantic/tag.el:175:  "Return the buffer TAG resides in IFF tag is already in a buffer.
./lisp/cedet/semantic/ia-sb.el:142:  "Show documentation about CONTEXT iff CONTEXT points at a complete symbol."
./lisp/cedet/semantic/bovine/c.el:1597:handled.  A class is abstract iff its destructor is virtual."
./lisp/cedet/ede.el:103:argument, the directory name; the function should return t iff
./lisp/cedet/ede.el:707:Return nil iff DIR should not be in `ede-project-directories'."
./lisp/menu-bar.el:925:  "Return non-nil iff VAL is a positive number."
./lisp/textmodes/reftex-parse.el:360:  "Return non-nil iff we are using biblatex rather than bibtex."
./lisp/minibuffer.el:2776:Those chars are treated as delimiters iff this variable is non-nil.
./lisp/gnus/gnus-registry.el:1130:the user is asked first.  Returns non-nil iff the registry is enabled."
./lisp/allout-widgets.el:269:Table is maintained iff `allout-widgets-maintain-tally' is non-nil.
./lisp/allout-widgets.el:1855:Optional HAS-SUCCESSOR is true iff the item is followed by a sibling.
./lisp/org/org-mouse.el:242:  "Return non-nil iff the line contains only white space."
./lisp/org/org-mouse.el:284:enabled for a given keyword iff (funcall SELECTED keyword) return
./src/floatfns.c:145:       doc: /* Return non nil iff argument X is a NaN.  */)
./lisp/progmodes/verilog-mode.el:3163:  "Return t iff the scan cache is up to date."
./lisp/progmodes/js.el:1305:  "Return non-nil iff point is in a function parameter list."
./lisp/progmodes/js.el:1316:  "Return non-nil iff point is in a Dojo multiple-inheritance class block."

The grep command was:

find . -type d \( -path \*/.eunit -o -path \*/.git -o -path \*/.hg -o -path \*/.fslckout -o -path \*/.bzr -o -path \*/_darcs -o -path \*/venv -o -path \*/build -o -path \*/SCCS -o -path \*/RCS -o -path \*/CVS -o -path \*/MCVS -o -path \*/.svn -o -path \*/_MTN -o -path \*/\{arch\} \) -prune -o \! -type d \( -name TAGS -o -name .\#\* -o -name \*mtc\* -o -name \*maf -o -name \*.o -o -name \*\~ -o -name \*.bin -o -name \*.lbin -o -name \*.so -o -name \*.a -o -name \*.ln -o -name \*.blg -o -name \*.bbl -o -name \*.elc -o -name \*.lof -o -name \*.glo -o -name \*.idx -o -name \*.lot -o -name \*.fmt -o -name \*.tfm -o -name \*.class -o -name \*.fas -o -name \*.lib -o -name \*.mem -o -name \*.x86f -o -name \*.sparcf -o -name \*.dfsl -o -name \*.pfsl -o -name \*.d64fsl -o -name \*.p64fsl -o -name \*.lx64fsl -o -name \*.lx32fsl -o -name \*.dx64fsl -o -name \*.dx32fsl -o -name \*.fx64fsl -o -name \*.fx32fsl -o -name \*.sx64fsl -o -name \*.sx32fsl -o -name \*.wx64fsl -o -name \*.wx32fsl -o -name \*.fasl -o -name \*.ufsl -o -name \*.fsl -o -name \*.dxl -o -name \*.lo -o -name \*.la -o -name \*.gmo -o -name \*.mo -o -name \*.toc -o -name \*.aux -o -name \*.cp -o -name \*.fn -o -name \*.ky -o -name \*.pg -o -name \*.tp -o -name \*.vr -o -name \*.cps -o -name \*.fns -o -name \*.kys -o -name \*.pgs -o -name \*.tps -o -name \*.vrs -o -name \*.pyc -o -name \*.pyo \) -prune -o  -type f \( -name \* -o -name .\* \) -exec grep -i -nH -e \\biff\\b {}+ 

which returns 194 lines. Removal was then done mostly manually.

-- 
Nico.

Message #38 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:47:01 +0300

> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:37:44 +0200
> From: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>
> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 
>  Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> 
> Another thing is that the Glossary is located inside the "Emacs"
> info node, but I reported the bug against the Autotype info node.

There's only one Glossary for all of the Emacs manuals.  (Actually,
most of the manuals in doc/misc are just parts of the Emacs User
Manual that are kept separate to avoid bloating the volume and the
price of the printed manual book; they are not separate manuals.)

Message #41 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: jan.synacek <at> gmail.com, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:53:02 +0300

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> Cc: 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 10:40:43 -0400
> 
> Indeed, I think "iff" is perfectly fine in docstrings, but we should
> refrain from using it in the Texinfo documentation.

Besides Glossary, autotype.info and message.info are the only manuals
that do, for the grand total of 3 (three) occurrences.  So I'd say we
follow our own advice quite well.

Message #44 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Nicolas Richard <theonewiththeevillook <at> yahoo.fr>
Cc: theonewiththeevillook <at> yahoo.fr, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 jan.synacek <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:57:16 +0300

> From: Nicolas Richard <theonewiththeevillook <at> yahoo.fr>
> Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 17:24:16 +0200
> Cc: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>,
> 	17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > I grepped for '\biff\b' and got:

Gee, almost 25 uses in what, 10 thousand doc strings? 20?  That's awful!

(Thanks for the footwork, Nicolas.)

Message #47 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Jan Synáček <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 14:26:18 -0400

> There's only one Glossary for all of the Emacs manuals.  (Actually,
> most of the manuals in doc/misc are just parts of the Emacs User
> Manual that are kept separate to avoid bloating the volume and the
> price of the printed manual book; they are not separate manuals.)

Indeed, I think they shouldn't appear in the top-level dir file.


        Stefan

Message #50 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Jan Syná?ek <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>,
 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 11:35:25 -0700 (PDT)

> > There's only one Glossary for all of the Emacs manuals.  (Actually,
> > most of the manuals in doc/misc are just parts of the Emacs User
> > Manual that are kept separate to avoid bloating the volume and the
> > price of the printed manual book; they are not separate manuals.)
> 
> Indeed, I think they shouldn't appear in the top-level dir file.

That sounds reasonable to me, providing they are linked to from the
Emacs manual.  IOW, there needs to be some way for a user to know
about them and reach them.

Message #53 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: Jan Syná?ek <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>,
 Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 15:44:26 -0400

> That sounds reasonable to me, providing they are linked to from the
> Emacs manual.  IOW, there needs to be some way for a user to know
> about them and reach them.

On the contrary, we should simply patch info.el so as to hide those
entries and prevent the user from ever reaching those manuals.


        Stefan

Message #56 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: Jan Syná?ek <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>,
 Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 12:54:09 -0700 (PDT)

> > That sounds reasonable to me, providing they are linked to from the
> > Emacs manual.  IOW, there needs to be some way for a user to know
> > about them and reach them.
> 
> On the contrary, we should simply patch info.el so as to hide those
> entries and prevent the user from ever reaching those manuals.

Then I obviously misunderstood what manuals you are talking about.
Sorry.  I thought this was about manuals such as Ediff, which involve
things that Emacs users use.

Message #59 received at 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: Jan Syná?ek <jan.synacek <at> gmail.com>,
 Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 17309 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Tue, 22 Apr 2014 19:04:02 -0400

> Then I obviously misunderstood what manuals you are talking about.
> Sorry.  I thought this was about manuals such as Ediff, which involve
> things that Emacs users use.

Yes, that's the kind of manuals I was talking about.
Off with their heads!


        Stefan

Message #64 received at 17309-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: 17309-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#17309: 24.4.50; Typos in autotype info
Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 19:56:46 -0400

Version: 24.4

I replaced the "iffs".

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