GNU bug report logs - #3503
23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo

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Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: <emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org>
Subject: 23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 15:39:21 -0700

emacs -Q
C-h r
 
``region'' in the main menu should be just region - or possibly
"region", if you consider that this somehow defines a region (which I
don't). AFAIK, there is never a need for ``...'' in Info.
 

In GNU Emacs 23.0.94.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600)
 of 2009-05-24 on SOFT-MJASON
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600
configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4)'
 

Message #10 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: <3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, <emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org>
Subject: RE: bug#3503: 23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo
Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 16:02:24 -0700

Same thing for ``edit'' in the same node.

Also, ``Shifted motion keys'' in node Setting Mark.

Also, ``GNU Free Documentation License'' in the node of the same name.

There are no other occurrences of `` in the Emacs manual, AFAICT.

Message #20 received at 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: 23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 18:32:25 +0200

"Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> ``region'' in the main menu should be just region - or possibly
> "region", if you consider that this somehow defines a region (which I
> don't). AFAIK, there is never a need for ``...'' in Info.

I think this looks OK the way it is.  It's introducing a concept that
most newbies won't be familiar with.

> Same thing for ``edit'' in the same node.

Ditto.

> Also, ``Shifted motion keys'' in node Setting Mark.

That one looked rather odd, yes.  I've rewritten it.

> Also, ``GNU Free Documentation License'' in the node of the same name.
>
> There are no other occurrences of `` in the Emacs manual, AFAICT.

Eg.:

In the combination, you must combine any sections Entitled ``History''
in the various original documents, forming one section Entitled
``History''; likewise combine any sections Entitled ``Acknowledgements'',
and any sections Entitled ``Dedications''.  You must delete all
sections Entitled ``Endorsements.''

And so on.  So I think I'll leave that one alone, too.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Message #27 received at 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen'" <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 'Eli Zaretskii' <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: RE: 23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:04:41 -0700

Lars> I think this looks OK the way it is.
Lars> It's introducing a concept that most newbies won't
Lars> be familiar with.

There is never any purpose in using double single quotes this way in the manual,
AFAICT.  

Maybe Eli will correct me.  If Eli checks this and he agrees with you, then I'm
OK with it.  Otherwise, I maintain that it is not helpful to use ``...'' in the
manual.

I am not the expert on the formatting conventions for our manuals, but this
seems odd to me.

Message #30 received at 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: 23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:21:26 +0300

> From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Cc: <3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>, "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:04:41 -0700
> 
> Lars> I think this looks OK the way it is.
> Lars> It's introducing a concept that most newbies won't
> Lars> be familiar with.
> 
> There is never any purpose in using double single quotes this way in the manual,
> AFAICT.  
> 
> Maybe Eli will correct me.  If Eli checks this and he agrees with you, then I'm
> OK with it.  Otherwise, I maintain that it is not helpful to use ``...'' in the
> manual.

Drew is right, the Info output should not use ``..'' quoting here.

Let me explain.

Normally, when the Info output is produced from Texinfo sources,
`makeinfo' converts ``...'' into "...", while in the printed output, TeX
converts that into “...”.  This is why one normally should use ``...''
in Texinfo, not "...".  But in menus, which are only visible in the
Info output, this conversion is evidently not done, so ``...'' stays
unchanged, which is not what we want.

You will see further down the main menu that "..." is used correctly.

Bottom line: the ``region'' thing (and ``edit'') should be changed to
use "..."  quoting.

Message #33 received at 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: RE: 23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:21:50 -0700

> Drew is right, the Info output should not use ``..'' quoting here.
> Let me explain.
> 
> Normally, when the Info output is produced from Texinfo sources,
> `makeinfo' converts ``...'' into "...", while in the printed 
> output, TeX
> converts that into "...".  This is why one normally should use ``...''
> in Texinfo, not "...".  But in menus, which are only visible in the
> Info output, this conversion is evidently not done, so ``...'' stays
> unchanged, which is not what we want.
> 
> You will see further down the main menu that "..." is used correctly.
> 
> Bottom line: the ``region'' thing (and ``edit'') should be changed to
> use "..."  quoting.

Thanks, and thanks for the explanation.  I know little about TexInfo and the
manual conventions.

Message #36 received at 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 3503 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Subject: Re: 23.0.94; Emacs manual, main menu typo
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 22:50:58 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Normally, when the Info output is produced from Texinfo sources,
> `makeinfo' converts ``...'' into "...", while in the printed output, TeX
> converts that into “...”.  This is why one normally should use ``...''
> in Texinfo, not "...".  But in menus, which are only visible in the
> Info output, this conversion is evidently not done, so ``...'' stays
> unchanged, which is not what we want.

I see.  I'll fix the three ``...'' entries in the menus in emacs.texi. 

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

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