Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options
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In-Reply-To: <mety2viz94.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> (Glenn Morris's message of
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>>> But I think that has been previously rejected.
>> That was a long time ago. We should do it for 24.2.
> That's a surprise. What's changed?
Resources.
> This feature was taken out 2005-05-17.
> Why does define-derived-mode deliberately go out of its way to NOT do
> this? Will that be changed too?
Yes,
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 10773) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Feb 2012 20:17:41 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Feb 12 15:17:41 2012 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37800 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1Rwfre-0008Ij-4P for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:17:39 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:41861 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <rgm <at> gnu.org>) id 1Rwfra-0008IT-O0 for 10773 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:17:35 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <rgm <at> gnu.org>) id 1RwfqB-0006Ky-I4; Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:16:07 -0500 From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA> Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options References: <87r4y4fik0.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> <5w1uq3lv3z.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> <87sjijt2jv.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> <64pqdm4mtn.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> <p2d39mmusx.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> <jwvmx8ofz6m.fsf-monnier+emacs <at> gnu.org> X-Spook: Ortega Taiwan Mossad RSA interception digicash benelux X-Ran: ]-"G!hkyj-x[p3-CIN&wb=]oz;_$<q}3erWoKiERU6cfPGmu=?T0=*R%H?T,^T.!5 <at> OhIO X-Hue: blue X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:16:07 -0500 Message-ID: <mety2viz94.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10773 Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 10773 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) Stefan Monnier wrote: >> But I think that has been previously rejected. > > That was a long time ago. We should do it for 24.2. That's a surprise. What's changed? This feature was taken out 2005-05-17. Why does define-derived-mode deliberately go out of its way to NOT do this? Will that be changed too?
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options
Message-ID: <jwvmx8ofz6m.fsf-monnier+emacs <at> gnu.org>
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> But I think that has been previously rejected.
That was a long time ago. We should do it for 24.2.
Stefan
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
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From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options
References: <87r4y4fik0.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> <5w1uq3lv3z.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org>
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Glenn Morris wrote:
>> Currently William Stevenson is working on converting minor modes to use
>> `define-minor-mode', so more minor mode hooks will lose an ability to be
>> changed using `set-variable'. I don't have an opinion whether this is
>> good or bad.
>
> I think it is irrelevant / good.
PS If it is thought to be bad, the right solution would seem to be to
make define-minor-mode declare the hook with an appropriate defvar,
which it easily could. But I think that has been previously rejected.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 10773) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2012 17:32:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 10 12:32:51 2012 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35167 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1RvuL5-0008JU-M4 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:32:51 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([140.186.70.10]:54113 ident=Debian-exim) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <rgm <at> gnu.org>) id 1RvuL3-0008JM-GV for 10773 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:32:50 -0500 Received: from rgm by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <rgm <at> gnu.org>) id 1RvuJp-0006wQ-Hu; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:31:33 -0500 From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options References: <87r4y4fik0.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> <5w1uq3lv3z.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> <87sjijt2jv.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> X-Spook: clandestine $400 million in gold bullion Soviet mania NSA X-Ran: U[xfrPYS1Ac}>P|$E""Pozidg}~tNau}DZg;.#ernym+5hQHf</(m4q"wOj$G-SnWhb#y% X-Hue: black X-Debbugs-No-Ack: yes X-Attribution: GM Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:31:32 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87sjijt2jv.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> (Juri Linkov's message of "Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:18:56 +0200") Message-ID: <64pqdm4mtn.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> User-Agent: Gnus (www.gnus.org), GNU Emacs (www.gnu.org/software/emacs/) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10773 Cc: 10773 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) Juri Linkov wrote: > Currently William Stevenson is working on converting minor modes to use > `define-minor-mode', so more minor mode hooks will lose an ability to be > changed using `set-variable'. I don't have an opinion whether this is > good or bad. I think it is irrelevant / good. > What I still don't understand is why some hooks have "*" in the docstring. Perhaps it depends whether one interprets "*" as meaning "something a user might want to set in .emacs", or "something a user might want to set interactively" (this is what "Tips and Conventions" says).
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 10773) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Feb 2012 10:24:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Feb 10 05:24:21 2012 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34561 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1RvneJ-00055X-F5 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:24:19 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:49396 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <juri <at> jurta.org>) id 1RvneC-000551-Kf for 10773 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 05:24:10 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C7316451C84F; Fri, 10 Feb 2012 02:21:34 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options Organization: JURTA References: <87r4y4fik0.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> <5w1uq3lv3z.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 12:18:56 +0200 In-Reply-To: <5w1uq3lv3z.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org> (Glenn Morris's message of "Thu, 09 Feb 2012 13:28:16 -0500") Message-ID: <87sjijt2jv.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 10773 Cc: 10773 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) >> Why users are allowed to change the value of `outline-mode-hook', >> but not `outline-minor-mode-hook'? > > The former is defined with (defvar ... "*..."). > The latter is not defined anywhere, but as define-derived-mode says > about hooks and has been covered several times: > > No problems result if this variable is not bound. > `add-hook' automatically binds it. (This is true for all hook variables.) > > I would says it's not very useful to pass a hook to set-variable anyway, > since you need to type a lisp expression, and probably should use > an explicit add-hook statement. Currently William Stevenson is working on converting minor modes to use `define-minor-mode', so more minor mode hooks will lose an ability to be changed using `set-variable'. I don't have an opinion whether this is good or bad. I just discovered the inconsistency between `outline-mode-hook' and `outline-minor-mode-hook' when trying to set temporarily them to the same value with `set-variable'. What I still don't understand is why some hooks have "*" in the docstring.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
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From: Kevin Rodgers <kevin.d.rodgers <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 01:18:06 -0700
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References: <87r4y4fik0.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> <5w1uq3lv3z.fsf <at> fencepost.gnu.org>
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On 2/9/12 11:28 AM, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Juri Linkov wrote:
>
>> Why users are allowed to change the value of `outline-mode-hook',
>> but not `outline-minor-mode-hook'?
>
> The former is defined with (defvar ... "*...").
> The latter is not defined anywhere, but as define-derived-mode says
> about hooks and has been covered several times:
>
> No problems result if this variable is not bound.
> `add-hook' automatically binds it. (This is true for all hook variables.)
>
> I would says it's not very useful to pass a hook to set-variable anyway,
> since you need to type a lisp expression, and probably should use
> an explicit add-hook statement.
Or allow add-hook (and remove-hook) to be called interactively, for convenience:
--- - 2012-02-10 01:14:16.000000000 -0700
+++ /tmp/subr.el 2012-02-10 01:13:17.000000000 -0700
@@ -1216,15 +1216,17 @@
unless the optional argument APPEND is non-nil, in which case
FUNCTION is added at the end.
-The optional fourth argument, LOCAL, if non-nil, says to modify
-the hook's buffer-local value rather than its default value.
-This makes the hook buffer-local if needed, and it makes t a member
-of the buffer-local value. That acts as a flag to run the hook
-functions in the default value as well as in the local value.
+The optional fourth argument, LOCAL, if non-nil or an interactive
+prefix arg, says to modify the hook's buffer-local value rather
+than its default value. This makes the hook buffer-local if
+needed, and it makes t a member of the buffer-local value. That
+acts as a flag to run the hook functions in the default value as
+well as in the local value.
HOOK should be a symbol, and FUNCTION may be any valid function. If
HOOK is void, it is first set to nil. If HOOK's value is a single
function, it is changed to a list of functions."
+ (interactive "SHook: \naFunction: \ni\nP")
(or (boundp hook) (set hook nil))
(or (default-boundp hook) (set-default hook nil))
(if local (unless (local-variable-if-set-p hook)
@@ -1264,8 +1266,10 @@
FUNCTION isn't the value of HOOK, or, if FUNCTION doesn't appear in the
list of hooks to run in HOOK, then nothing is done. See `add-hook'.
-The optional third argument, LOCAL, if non-nil, says to modify
-the hook's buffer-local value rather than its default value."
+The optional third argument, LOCAL, if non-nil (interactively,
+with prefix argument) says to modify the hook's buffer-local
+value rather than its default value."
+ (interactive "SHook: \naFunction: \nP")
(or (boundp hook) (set hook nil))
(or (default-boundp hook) (set-default hook nil))
;; Do nothing if LOCAL is t but this hook has no local binding.
--
Kevin Rodgers
Denver, Colorado, USA
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Subject: Re: bug#10773: set-variable can't change values of user options
References: <87r4y4fik0.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org>
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Juri Linkov wrote:
> Why users are allowed to change the value of `outline-mode-hook',
> but not `outline-minor-mode-hook'?
The former is defined with (defvar ... "*...").
The latter is not defined anywhere, but as define-derived-mode says
about hooks and has been covered several times:
No problems result if this variable is not bound.
`add-hook' automatically binds it. (This is true for all hook variables.)
I would says it's not very useful to pass a hook to set-variable anyway,
since you need to type a lisp expression, and probably should use
an explicit add-hook statement.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Feb 2012 09:49:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Feb 09 04:49:30 2012 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33260 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1RvQd8-0001O4-6s for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:49:30 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:45112) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from <juri <at> jurta.org>) id 1RvQd6-0001Ns-HM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:49:28 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <juri <at> jurta.org>) id 1RvQbr-0004TB-9K for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:48:16 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([140.186.70.17]:54655) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <juri <at> jurta.org>) id 1RvQbr-0004T5-7l for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:48:11 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.92]:41020) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <juri <at> jurta.org>) id 1RvQbl-0007FE-RJ for bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:48:11 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <juri <at> jurta.org>) id 1RvQbf-0004QO-RG for bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:48:05 -0500 Received: from ps18281.dreamhost.com ([69.163.218.105]:45460 helo=ps18281.dreamhostps.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <juri <at> jurta.org>) id 1RvQbf-0004Q4-LX for bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org; Thu, 09 Feb 2012 04:47:59 -0500 Received: from localhost (ps18281.dreamhostps.com [69.163.218.105]) by ps18281.dreamhostps.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EF48451C815 for <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>; Thu, 9 Feb 2012 01:46:37 -0800 (PST) From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org Subject: set-variable can't change values of user options Organization: JURTA Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:43:43 +0200 Message-ID: <87r4y4fik0.fsf <at> mail.jurta.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.0.93 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-Received-From: 140.186.70.17 X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Spam-Score: -4.2 (----) Package: emacs Version: 24.0.93 Severity: wishlist emacs -Q C-h C-t M-x set-variable RET outline-mode-hook RET (hide-body) RET M-x set-variable RET outline-minor-mode-hook RET [No match] Why users are allowed to change the value of `outline-mode-hook', but not `outline-minor-mode-hook'?
Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>:bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#10773; Package emacs.
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