X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#64159: Feature suggestion for eglot: preferred LSP servers Resent-From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:12:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.64159.B.168712269130499 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: report 64159 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN> Cc: 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: "bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> Received: via spool by submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B.168712269130499 (code B ref -1); Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:12:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2023 21:11:31 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55093 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qAzgI-0007vq-Kx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; 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Sun, 18 Jun 2023 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87v8fk21az.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87v8fk21az.fsf@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 22:13:43 +0100 Message-ID: <CALDnm50aAHrH735ySu7xhQ=rTrZTe0E2wMsMxOjKXKkapVqkCg@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::c2b; envelope-from=joaotavora@HIDDEN; helo=mail-oo1-xc2b.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 5:16=E2=80=AFPM Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN>= wrote: > > > (Expanding an initial discussion with Joao to the proper email list) > > Hi, > > The variable eglot-server-programs includes suitable LSP servers per > major mode. Would it be useful for users to extend this to a preference = by order? > > For example, for example eglot has 2 supported programs for TeX: > ((tex-mode context-mode texinfo-mode bibt= ex-mode) > . ,(eglot-alternatives '("digestif" "te= xlab"))) > > Is one preferred in terms of compatibility with eglot or other > functionality? This could be implemented with a specific order. Just a preamble: Eglot is an LSP client. The (great) idea behind LSP is for every client to be compatible with every server. That's not always respected by client/server implementers (the most common case is servers who assume that VSCode, made by the company who also makes the standard, is the de facto standard). But in most cases it _is_ respected is, and certainly Eglot as a Client strives to achieve that. So, in my view, it makes little sense to talk about "servers supported or compatible with eglot" . Even eglot-server-programs itself is a bit of an anti-LSP thing, though admittedly it's a very useful one in some cases. It's just a list of server invocations that Emacs can guess for the current major mode. I almost always start my daily clangd sessions with C-u M-x eglot, for example, and then pass one or other comman= d line argument to the prompt, referring to history. I do this once or twice a day at most, and barely lose any time. So eglot-server-programs is almost useless to me. I try experimental servers all the time, and point Eglot to it with the same method. So the order of the alternatives isn't really important, or thought over. At least by me it isn't. Hope this helps, Jo=C3=A3o (with a tilde on the a for a nice round nasal =C3=A3o)
Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System) To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Subject: bug#64159: Acknowledgement (Feature suggestion for eglot: preferred LSP servers) Message-ID: <handler.64159.B.168712269130499.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org> References: <CALDnm50aAHrH735ySu7xhQ=rTrZTe0E2wMsMxOjKXKkapVqkCg@HIDDEN> X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 64159 X-Gnu-PR-Package: emacs Reply-To: 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 21:12:02 +0000 Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please send it to 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system. --=20 64159: https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D64159 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#64159: Feature suggestion for eglot: preferred LSP servers Resent-From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 22:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.64159.B.168712711525278 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64159 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Cc: 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Received: via spool by submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B.168712711525278 (code B ref -1); Sun, 18 Jun 2023 22:26:02 +0000 Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2023 22:25:15 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55207 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qB0pe-0006Zd-Mx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 18:25:15 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:45780) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <jb@HIDDEN>) id 1qB0pd-0006ZW-1E for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 18:25:13 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <jb@HIDDEN>) id 1qB0pc-0004wP-Ql for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 18:25:12 -0400 Received: from p3plsmtp15-04-2.prod.phx3.secureserver.net ([173.201.193.40] helo=p3plwbeout15-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <jb@HIDDEN>) id 1qB0pa-0005Bw-Se for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 18:25:12 -0400 Received: from mailex.mailcore.me ([94.136.40.141]) by :WBEOUT: with ESMTP id B0pVq4dSpAFQ0B0pWqyhal; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 15:25:07 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=ZOQSJV3b c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=648f8444 a=bheWAUFm1xGnSTQFbH9Kqg==:117 a=nzDM7VRi/FXkTBRroS9HBg==:17 a=yM0T0u6Ik-0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=of4jigFt-DYA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=4ZrrpnpWAAAA:8 a=mC7SWjGAuHvg8rTLOvwA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1Cd5MWGGBJJ9eP861nmr:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: jb@HIDDEN X-SID: B0pVq4dSpAFQ0 Received: from [152.37.91.204] (helo=hexa3.local.com) by smtp02.mailcore.me with esmtpa (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <jb@HIDDEN>) id 1qB0pc-0008aG-Ay; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 23:25:12 +0100 References: <87v8fk21az.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm50aAHrH735ySu7xhQ=rTrZTe0E2wMsMxOjKXKkapVqkCg@HIDDEN> User-agent: mu4e 1.8.13; emacs 29.0.91 From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 23:20:06 +0100 In-reply-to: <CALDnm50aAHrH735ySu7xhQ=rTrZTe0E2wMsMxOjKXKkapVqkCg@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <87r0q81k8v.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailcore-Auth: 278589627 X-Mailcore-Domain: 1689493 X-123-reg-Authenticated: jb@HIDDEN X-Originating-IP: 152.37.91.204 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfMbgeIeFC64Q+VPGSZSFwQ366SCdBRA2QboHFIj7mceB6mrC8/xaUoJd+08RcUGef2dKkSvFfZuBIb5RB+8EZVZXNuXoes2DIjmta/cXfWyaIQ9WKd4R E38sYgCzidguLU2+DaSc9TUkKieu4c3nmFvhfKDuNQjZsv7yIFm1Qxh2L0oV3POybPOn7SQkWljeUqL0fK1cxOJY+d55xiKZCt0= Received-SPF: pass client-ip=173.201.193.40; envelope-from=jb@HIDDEN; helo=p3plwbeout15-04.prod.phx3.secureserver.net X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) Thanks Jo=C3=A3o for the clarifications on the purpose of eglot, and the su= ggestion to use C-u M-x eglot, I will investigate. My feature suggestion was from a more basic user-level selection of LSP servers. PS: In the meantime, I have worked out how to use C-x 8 to insert Unicode f= or proper name spelling of Jo=C3=A3o, thank you for clarification. Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes: > On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 5:16=E2=80=AFPM Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN= t> wrote: >> >> >> (Expanding an initial discussion with Joao to the proper email list) >> >> Hi, >> >> The variable eglot-server-programs includes suitable LSP servers per >> major mode. Would it be useful for users to extend this to a preference= by order? >> >> For example, for example eglot has 2 supported programs for TeX: >> ((tex-mode context-mode texinfo-mode bib= tex-mode) >> . ,(eglot-alternatives '("digestif" "t= exlab"))) >> >> Is one preferred in terms of compatibility with eglot or other >> functionality? This could be implemented with a specific order. > > Just a preamble: Eglot is an LSP client. The (great) idea behind > LSP is for every client to be compatible with every server. That's > not always respected by client/server implementers (the most common > case is servers who assume that VSCode, made by the company who also > makes the standard, is the de facto standard). But in most cases > it _is_ respected is, and certainly Eglot as a Client strives to > achieve that. > > So, in my view, it makes little sense to talk about "servers supported > or compatible with eglot" . Even eglot-server-programs itself is a bit > of an anti-LSP thing, though admittedly it's a very useful one in some > cases. It's just a list of server invocations that Emacs can guess > for the current major mode. I almost always start my daily clangd > sessions with C-u M-x eglot, for example, and then pass one or other comm= and > line argument to the prompt, referring to history. I do this once > or twice a day at most, and barely lose any time. So eglot-server-progra= ms > is almost useless to me. I try experimental servers all the time, and > point Eglot to it with the same method. > > So the order of the alternatives isn't really important, or thought > over. At least by me it isn't. > > Hope this helps, > > Jo=C3=A3o (with a tilde on the a for a nice round nasal =C3=A3o)
X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN Subject: bug#64159: Feature suggestion for eglot: preferred LSP servers Resent-From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN> Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 22:26:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: <handler.64159.B64159.168712711825295 <at> debbugs.gnu.org> Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@HIDDEN X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 64159 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: To: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=C3=A3o_?= =?UTF-8?Q?T=C3=A1vora?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> Cc: 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Debbugs-Original-Cc: 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Received: via spool by 64159-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org id=B64159.168712711825295 (code B ref 64159); Sun, 18 Jun 2023 22:26:02 +0000 Received: (at 64159) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Jun 2023 22:25:18 +0000 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55210 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1qB0pi-0006Zv-6i for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 18:25:18 -0400 Received: from p3plsmtp27-03-2.prod.phx3.secureserver.net ([216.69.139.50]:36864 helo=p3plwbeout27-03.prod.phx3.secureserver.net) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <jb@HIDDEN>) id 1qB0pe-0006ZO-Mo for 64159 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 18:25:15 -0400 Received: from mailex.mailcore.me ([94.136.40.142]) by :WBEOUT: with ESMTP id B0pVqCVgK9J7QB0pWqWqsk; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 15:25:06 -0700 X-CMAE-Analysis: v=2.4 cv=UtCmi88B c=1 sm=1 tr=0 ts=648f8444 a=s1hRAmXuQnGNrIj+3lWWVA==:117 a=nzDM7VRi/FXkTBRroS9HBg==:17 a=yM0T0u6Ik-0A:10 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=of4jigFt-DYA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=4ZrrpnpWAAAA:8 a=mC7SWjGAuHvg8rTLOvwA:9 a=7Zwj6sZBwVKJAoWSPKxL6X1jA+E=:19 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1Cd5MWGGBJJ9eP861nmr:22 X-SECURESERVER-ACCT: jb@HIDDEN X-SID: B0pVqCVgK9J7Q Received: from [152.37.91.204] (helo=hexa3.local.com) by smtp02.mailcore.me with esmtpa (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from <jb@HIDDEN>) id 1qB0pc-0008aG-Ay; Sun, 18 Jun 2023 23:25:12 +0100 References: <87v8fk21az.fsf@HIDDEN> <CALDnm50aAHrH735ySu7xhQ=rTrZTe0E2wMsMxOjKXKkapVqkCg@HIDDEN> User-agent: mu4e 1.8.13; emacs 29.0.91 From: Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2023 23:20:06 +0100 In-reply-to: <CALDnm50aAHrH735ySu7xhQ=rTrZTe0E2wMsMxOjKXKkapVqkCg@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <87r0q81k8v.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailcore-Auth: 278589627 X-Mailcore-Domain: 1689493 X-123-reg-Authenticated: jb@HIDDEN X-Originating-IP: 152.37.91.204 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4xfBgAYLNtJTmq85Ug4Ut6J5OApE7E5d4rg0hCx444VGeP+fJFKSXIDm6nlz/fWt/iE7JSAmTQo1EWA2F+JZHvPNfejm46Od6CqC59Wd96vaFzGSK2cOvC j2kWcFSqbWFcFkUmvMrWGL8b/hskgtoJ1I0iixCjSmQH8rvZgvXkbjP6vnVJP9QosnJuDLjoL6UsQtXP0zDASKzUrOmXDVDwuoE= X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Thanks Jo=C3=A3o for the clarifications on the purpose of eglot, and the su= ggestion to use C-u M-x eglot, I will investigate. My feature suggestion was from a more basic user-level selection of LSP servers. PS: In the meantime, I have worked out how to use C-x 8 to insert Unicode f= or proper name spelling of Jo=C3=A3o, thank you for clarification. Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> writes: > On Sun, Jun 18, 2023 at 5:16=E2=80=AFPM Jeremy Bryant <jb@HIDDEN= t> wrote: >> >> >> (Expanding an initial discussion with Joao to the proper email list) >> >> Hi, >> >> The variable eglot-server-programs includes suitable LSP servers per >> major mode. Would it be useful for users to extend this to a preference= by order? >> >> For example, for example eglot has 2 supported programs for TeX: >> ((tex-mode context-mode texinfo-mode bib= tex-mode) >> . ,(eglot-alternatives '("digestif" "t= exlab"))) >> >> Is one preferred in terms of compatibility with eglot or other >> functionality? This could be implemented with a specific order. > > Just a preamble: Eglot is an LSP client. The (great) idea behind > LSP is for every client to be compatible with every server. That's > not always respected by client/server implementers (the most common > case is servers who assume that VSCode, made by the company who also > makes the standard, is the de facto standard). But in most cases > it _is_ respected is, and certainly Eglot as a Client strives to > achieve that. > > So, in my view, it makes little sense to talk about "servers supported > or compatible with eglot" . Even eglot-server-programs itself is a bit > of an anti-LSP thing, though admittedly it's a very useful one in some > cases. It's just a list of server invocations that Emacs can guess > for the current major mode. I almost always start my daily clangd > sessions with C-u M-x eglot, for example, and then pass one or other comm= and > line argument to the prompt, referring to history. I do this once > or twice a day at most, and barely lose any time. So eglot-server-progra= ms > is almost useless to me. I try experimental servers all the time, and > point Eglot to it with the same method. > > So the order of the alternatives isn't really important, or thought > over. At least by me it isn't. > > Hope this helps, > > Jo=C3=A3o (with a tilde on the a for a nice round nasal =C3=A3o)
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