GNU bug report logs - #69977
[PATCH] doc: doc-Simplify installation instructions (was Re: doc: installation: fix ~root confusion (was Re: doc: Removing much of Binary Installation))

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Package: guix-patches; Reported by: Matt <matt@HIDDEN>; Keywords: patch; merged with #69976; dated Sun, 24 Mar 2024 10:52:02 UTC; Maintainer for guix-patches is guix-patches@HIDDEN.
Merged 69976 69977. Request was from "pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)" <pelzflorian@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

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Subject: [PATCH] doc: doc-Simplify installation instructions (was Re: doc:
 installation: fix ~root confusion (was Re: doc: Removing much of Binary
 Installation))
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Cc: Josselin Poiret <dev@HIDDEN>,
 Christian Miller <christian.miller@HIDDEN>,
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 "pelzflorian \(Florian Pelz\)" <pelzflorian@HIDDEN>
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On Ludo's recommendation, I'm submitting this patch set.  It fixes issues o=
f confusion raised in feedback on the manual.  See this discussion: https:/=
/lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2024-03/msg00023.html

I will reply to points raised in that thread here and have CC'd people who =
have previously shown interest.

 ---- On Sat, 16 Mar 2024 15:05:13 +0100  pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)  wrote=
 ---
 > I think the diff was quite appropriate.  You could make a patch via =E2=
=80=9Cgit
 > format-patch=E2=80=9D or =E2=80=9Cgit send-email=E2=80=9D, which would i=
nclude a commit message
 > and which could include a move of sections 2.2 and 2.3 to the
 > contributing.texi.  But it is not necessary for documentation changes.

See attached.

 > >> > Matt matt@HIDDEN> writes:
 > >> > +You can install the Guix package management tool on top of an exis=
ting
 > >> > +GNU/Linux or GNU/Hurd system@footnote{Currently only the Linux-lib=
re
 > >> > +kernel is fully supported. [=E2=80=A6]
 > >>
 > >> No.
 > >>
 > >> First of all, using guix-install.sh as per your instructions, one
 > >> installs the Guix distribution *and* package management tool.  Either
 > >> say =E2=80=9CYou can install the Guix package management tool and dis=
tribution=E2=80=9D
 > >> or =E2=80=9CYou can install Guix=E2=80=9D.
 > >
 > > I'm afraid I don't follow.  Where do you see the suggested changes
 > > confusing the installation process for Guix as a distribution and Guix
 > > as a package management tool?
 > >
 > > The sentence you quote is the suggested first sentence for the Chapter
 > > 2: Installation.  The complete sentence reads,
 > >
 > > "You can install the Guix package management tool on top of an
 > > existing GNU/Linux or GNU/Hurd system(1), referred to as a "foreign
 > > distro", or as a standalone operating system distribution, the "Guix
 > > System"."
 > >
 > > It literally says Guix is a package manager or a distribution.
 >
 > Precisely this terminology is the issue.  Nix is a package manager;
 > Nixpkgs is a distribution.  For Guix, Guix is both a package manager and
 > distribution.  Guix System is not a distribution in this sense; Guix is
 > the distribution.  I am aware that some people expect distribution to
 > mean a self-sufficient operating system, but we should not subscribe to
 > one side of terminology.  (Actually, the term operating system is
 > complex as well, for example GNU is an operating system and the people
 > from Robot Operating System call ROS an operating system.)

Thank you for your feedback.  Reading the suggested changes again with fres=
h eyes, I think I now see your concerns.  I see you raise two concerns:

1. A clear distinction between Guix and the Guix System was not made

I have split the suggested sentence, whose current version (v04) is given a=
bove, into two. One sentence has the subject of "the package management too=
l Guix" and the other "the Guix System".  You were correct in observing tha=
t the suggestion confused the meaning of "Guix".  Good catch!

2. The use of "operating system" is inappropriate

The v04 suggestion used "operating system" only because the current manual =
(bf53001) says in Section 1: Introduction, "If, instead, you want to instal=
l the complete GNU operating system..." before linking to "...how to instal=
l Guix System on a machine."

I have changed the patch set to say,

"If, instead, you want to install the complete, standalone GNU system distr=
ibution..."

This is based off the Section 1: Introduction which calls Guix System a dis=
tribution, "...or you can use [Guix] as a standalone operating system distr=
ibution, 'Guix System'" and Section 1.2: GNU Distribution which says, "we r=
efer to the standalone distribution as Guix System."

I'm not sure if I've responded to all of your concerns here.  Have I missed=
 any?

 > I would not address Hurd here at all.  Hurd support would be important
 > and is promising, but documentation for it should come after it works on
 > more than a Childhurd.

You say, "I would not address Hurd *here*" which implies it's valid to addr=
ess Hurd elsewhere.  What's the criteria for deciding whether to address Hu=
rd and how are the reasons I inadequate?

Here are the reasons I gave previously for why we should continue documenti=
ng Hurd support:

- The manual already documents Hurd support
- Core developers have published the statement, "running on the Hurd was al=
ways a goal for Guix"
- Guix can run on Hurd
- Code exists in the main branch for Hurd support

 > > No mention of 'guix-install.sh' is made on that page.
 >
 > I wanted to give an example what I mean, not a suggestion.

I don't understand what you mean then.  The exchange quoted here was part o=
f the "Guix" versus "Guix System" discussion above.  Have the updates I've =
made there addressed this point?

 > >> Next, I believe Guix cannot currently be built on existing GNU/Hurd
 > >> systems, because guile-fibers does not work.  I do not really know
 > >> enough, but I would not mention Hurd support.
 > >
 > > The are two issues here, what is said and what should be said.
 > >
 > > Regarding what is said, the section we're talking about is for
 > > installing not building.  You *can* install the Guix package
 > > management tool on top of an existing GNU/Hurd system.
 >
 > Probably a guix pack of the guix package would run, but Debian=E2=80=99s
 > guile-fibers is not accepted, if I don=E2=80=99t misunderstand.

What I ask myself is, "Is this a problem or a detail?"  I know that probabl=
y sounds stupid.  However, the question is whether Guix can be installed on=
 Hurd.  The answer is, Guix can be installed on Hurd.  Everything else, the=
refore, including guile-fibers or which Hurd, while important in other cont=
exts, is not important to this issue.

 > > [=E2=80=A6]
 > >> >> Similarly, IMO the nuances are more appropriate in the old wording
 > >> >> =E2=80=9CFor Debian or a derivative such as Ubuntu,=E2=80=9D rathe=
r than your change
 > >> >> =E2=80=9CFor Debian and Ubuntu-based systems=E2=80=9D.
 > >> >
 > >> > The current wording is, "If you're running Debian or a derivative s=
uch
 > >> > as Ubuntu..."  None of the suggested changes include the wording yo=
u
 > >> > give.
 > >> >
 > >> > What are the nuances?  If they matter, we should probably make them=
 explicit.
 > >>
 > >> The nuance is that Ubuntu is a derivative of Debian.  It can be
 > >> bootstrapped with Debian=E2=80=99s dpkg, although I did not follow a =
recent
 > >> e-mail thread on how to do this from a Guix-provided dpkg.
 > >
 > > Unless there's something about this nuance which directly affects the
 > > installation process, I don't think the distinction warrants mention.
 > >
 > > I opted to ignore the distinction and use "Debian and Ubuntu-based
 > > systems" because many popular distros, such as Ubuntu, Linux Mint,
 > > Zorin OS, Elementary OS, Linux Lite, and Pop!_OS, are known for being
 > > "based on Ubuntu."  The relevant information for users of these
 > > systems is not that they're derivatives of Debian, it's that this is
 > > the installation process for such systems.
 >
 > Ubuntu should not get the credits for what Debian is doing.  The current
 > wording =E2=80=9CDebian or a derivative such as Ubuntu=E2=80=9D is faire=
r and equally
 > clear.

Ensuring fairness is everyone's responsiblity.  I respect you for accepting=
 this and speaking up.  I understand that you're concerned about proper att=
ribution.

AFAIK, Ubuntu gives clear credit to Debian.  For example, the Ubuntu websit=
e says, "Debian is the rock on which Ubuntu is built."  https://ubuntu.com/=
community/governance/debian They give similarly clear statements elsewhere,=
 too.

My understanding is that many distros call themselves "based on Ubuntu", "b=
uilt upon Ubuntu", or list Ubuntu as "upstream" because they use packages t=
hat are, at minimum, distributed by Ubuntu.  That adds value also deserving=
 of credit and which is separate from the value added by Debian.  Also, we =
must not overlook that Debian is itself built upon the work of others, many=
 of whom are not associated with Debian and may not even be aware Debian pa=
ckages or distributes their work.  This is all possible and just because of=
 Free Software.  One of the four freedoms is the right to distribute unmodi=
fied copies.  It depends on the license terms, or lack thereof, whether exp=
licit credit needs to be given.  I've not heard of Ubuntu violating any lic=
ense terms or other legal restrictions requiring attribution.

Am I missing something?

 > >> Better not change the wording?  I believe enabling substitutes is not
 > >> the default.

You are correct!  I misunderstood the current manual and wrote that misunde=
rstanding into my suggested changes.  I have updated the suggested changes.=
  Thank you for catching this!

 > I agree with you now that the wording can be simplified, except it must =
be rewritten to that disabling substitutes is an option that is not the def=
ault.

The term "substitute" is given in the Section 1 Introduction.  However, sin=
ce it's jargon and this is a different chapter, I think it prudent to repea=
t the definition again as a reminder.

The 'guix-install.sh' script uses the term "pre-built package binaries" ins=
tead of "substitute":

"Permit downloading pre-built package binaries from the project's build far=
ms? [Y/n]"

I propose the following.  The intent is to match the script's language so t=
hat readers may understand the consequences of a 'Y' or 'n' choice.  The be=
st place to do this would be in the prompt.  However, documenting consequen=
ces in the manual seems a reasonable compromise which makes the prompt conc=
ise and allows us to link to the "On Trusting Binaries" section.

+By default, 'guix-install.sh' will configure Guix to download pre-built
+package binaries, called @dfn{substitutes} (@pxref{Substitutes}), from
+the project's build farms.  If you choose not to permit this, Guix will
+build @emph{everything} from source, making each installation and
+upgrade very expensive.  @xref{On Trusting Binaries} for a discussion of
+why you may want to build packages from source.

 > Otherwise LGTM.  Could you send another diff?

Gladly.  I reviewed our past messages and tried to document all the relevan=
t changes in the commit messages.
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------=_Part_1364388_1327837156.1711272450423--





Acknowledgement sent to Matt <matt@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to guix-patches@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to guix-patches@HIDDEN:
bug#69977; Package guix-patches. Full text available.
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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.