GNU bug report logs - #16493
24.3.50; (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn visible-mode temporarily on

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> altern.org>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 24.3.50; (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sun, 19 Jan 2014 15:55:31 +0100

I see very little value in setting `search-invisible' to t.

Also, when doing so, text that is hidden with an overlay is not hit
during a search, only text that is hidden through an invisble text
property, which feels wrong.

I suggest this change: when `search-invisible' is set to `t',
temporarily turn visible-mode on in isearch-mode.  The meaning of
'open would not change and 'open is fine as a default IMO.

With this change, `C-s M-s i' will switch from 'open to 't, allowing
to display all invisible text temporarily, or from 't to 'open,
allowing to only open overlays containing hidden text.

What do you think?



In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.10.6)
 of 2014-01-13 on bzg
Repository revision: 116011 monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca-20140113153301-ozd3taipkkc7p5cr
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11405000
System Description:	Arch Linux

Important settings:
  value of $LC_COLLATE: C
  value of $LANG: fr_FR.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Group

Minor modes in effect:
  gnus-topic-mode: t
  helm-match-plugin-mode: t
  erc-list-mode: t
  erc-menu-mode: t
  erc-autojoin-mode: t
  erc-ring-mode: t
  erc-networks-mode: t
  erc-pcomplete-mode: t
  erc-track-mode: t
  erc-match-mode: t
  erc-button-mode: t
  erc-fill-mode: t
  erc-stamp-mode: t
  erc-netsplit-mode: t
  erc-irccontrols-mode: t
  erc-noncommands-mode: t
  erc-move-to-prompt-mode: t
  erc-readonly-mode: t
  diff-auto-refine-mode: t
  gnus-undo-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  display-time-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
<C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> C-e C-a <C-down> 
<C-down> <C-down> <C-down> <tab> <return> <C-down> 
<C-down> <C-down> <C-down> <tab> <return> <C-down> 
<C-down> <C-down> <C-down> <C-down> <C-down> <C-down> 
C-x C-f C-g C-x 3 C-x o C-x C-f <C-backspace> <C-backspace> 
<C-backspace> <C-backspace> o h <tab> <C-backspace> 
h o <tab> g u <tab> i n s <tab> g i <tab> e m a <tab> 
/ l i s <tab> C-a C-e <C-backspace> e <tab> N E <tab> 
<tab> W <tab> <return> C-s s a e <backspace> e a <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> e a r c h C-s C-s C-s C-s C-s 
C-s C-s C-e <C-left> <C-left> <C-left> <C-left> <C-left> 
C-e <down> C-a <C-right> C-e <C-left> <C-left> <C-left> 
C-a <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-down> <C-down> <down> C-e 
C-a <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> 
<C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> 
<C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> <C-up> M-< 
M-x o u t l i n <tab> e <tab> - m o d <tab> <return> 
M-x <up> <return> C-x 1 M-x o r g - m o d e <return> 
<C-down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> 
<down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> <down> s 
<tab> <tab> C-s s e a r c h C-s C-s C-a <up> <up> <up> 
<up> <tab> C-x n w <down> <tab> s M-x <up> C-g C-s 
C-s C-a C-x n w <tab> <down> <tab> s C-s s e a r c 
C-s C-a M-< C-x C-g C-x n w <tab> <down> C-e C-a <tab> 
s C-s s e a r c h C-a M-< C-x n w <tab> <down> <tab> 
s C-s s e a r c h C-s C-s C-a M-< <tab> C-x n w M-< 
C-e C-a C-x C-s C-z k C-x 1 M-x <up> <up> <up> <re
turn>

Recent messages:
Mark saved where search started
Quit
Mark saved where search started
Mark set
C-x C-g is undefined
Mark saved where search started
Mark set
Mark saved where search started
Mark set [2 times]
(No changes need to be saved)

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~/install/cvs/emacs-w3m/w3m-util hides /usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/w3m/w3m-util
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~/install/cvs/emacs-w3m/w3m-session hides /usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/w3m/w3m-session
~/install/cvs/emacs-w3m/w3m-rss hides /usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp/w3m/w3m-rss
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custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process
dbusbind gfilenotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)

Message #8 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
To: Bastien Guerry <bzg <at> altern.org>
Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 09:57:07 +0200

> I see very little value in setting `search-invisible' to t.
>
> Also, when doing so, text that is hidden with an overlay is not hit
> during a search, only text that is hidden through an invisble text
> property, which feels wrong.
>
> I suggest this change: when `search-invisible' is set to `t',
> temporarily turn visible-mode on in isearch-mode.  The meaning of
> 'open would not change and 'open is fine as a default IMO.
>
> With this change, `C-s M-s i' will switch from 'open to 't, allowing
> to display all invisible text temporarily, or from 't to 'open,
> allowing to only open overlays containing hidden text.
>
> What do you think?

I think we should keep the value `t' because it might be useful
for some users.  And add a new value like `open-all' that in its behavior
is similar to `open' but additionally will open all overlays at once
using `visible-mode' as you suggested to do.

Message #11 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:15:59 +0100

Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> writes:

> I think we should keep the value `t' because it might be useful
> for some users.  And add a new value like `open-all' that in its behavior
> is similar to `open' but additionally will open all overlays at once
> using `visible-mode' as you suggested to do.

This would definitely be an improvement, thanks.

This was my first idea, but then `isearch-toggle-invisible' needs
to cycle through _three_ states instead of two, which deviates from
other toggle commands.

If such cycling is fine, I'm all for this change.

I consider this a bug, because anyone trying to replace text within
an Org bracket link will not reach the URL.

E.g. replacing "www" by "ftp" is currently not possible in

  [[http://gnu.org][GNU]]

you have to manually turn visible-mode on.

-- 
 Bastien

Message #14 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 12:19:15 +0100

Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org> writes:

> E.g. replacing "www" by "ftp" is currently not possible in
                  ^^^
I mean "http" of course.

-- 
 Bastien

Message #17 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 08:54:56 -0500

> E.g. replacing "www" by "ftp" is currently not possible in
>   [[http://gnu.org][GNU]]
> you have to manually turn visible-mode on.

I don't understand the relationship between this problem and the subject
of bug#16493.


        Stefan

Message #20 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 21 Jan 2014 15:20:34 +0100

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> E.g. replacing "www" by "ftp" is currently not possible in
>>   [[http://gnu.org][GNU]]
>> you have to manually turn visible-mode on.
>
> I don't understand the relationship between this problem and the subject
> of bug#16493.

I forgot to connect the dots.

When search-invisible is t, perform-replace can replace matches
in any invisible text, but does not display it when prompting the
user for confirmation.

When search-invisible is 'open, perform-replace can replace matches
only in hidden text (invisible through an overlay), and displays it
when prompting the user.

We lack a way to reveal truly invisible text when performing a search
and replace.  The URL of a bracket link in Org is an example of such
truly invisible text.

Juri's solution to add 'open-all could also be used in perform-replace
to let the user see truly invisible matches before replacing them.

So the *solutions* are related, if not the problems themselves.

-- 
 Bastien

Message #23 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2014 10:30:54 -0500

> We lack a way to reveal truly invisible text when performing a search
> and replace.  The URL of a bracket link in Org is an example of such
> truly invisible text.

What do you mean by "truly invisible"?  Does that refer to text that's
marked with an `invisible' text-property (as opposed to an overlay with
that property)?


        Stefan

Message #26 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sun, 09 Nov 2014 21:30:42 +0200

>> We lack a way to reveal truly invisible text when performing a search
>> and replace.  The URL of a bracket link in Org is an example of such
>> truly invisible text.
>
> What do you mean by "truly invisible"?  Does that refer to text that's
> marked with an `invisible' text-property (as opposed to an overlay with
> that property)?

I guess Bastien meant toggling the value of `buffer-invisibility-spec'
while isearch is active.  Let's wait for Bastien to confirm this.

It's the problem indeed that isearch doesn't match such invisible text
but query-replace matches and replaces it.

Message #29 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:41:27 +0100

Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org> writes:

>>> We lack a way to reveal truly invisible text when performing a search
>>> and replace.  The URL of a bracket link in Org is an example of such
>>> truly invisible text.
>>
>> What do you mean by "truly invisible"?  Does that refer to text that's
>> marked with an `invisible' text-property (as opposed to an overlay with
>> that property)?
>
> I guess Bastien meant toggling the value of `buffer-invisibility-spec'
> while isearch is active.  Let's wait for Bastien to confirm this.

Yes, I do confirm, thanks Juri.

> It's the problem indeed that isearch doesn't match such invisible text
> but query-replace matches and replaces it.

Yes.  I tried to state the problem here:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2014-01/msg01054.html

I think the default behavior should be to open both invisible-with-a
-text-property and invisible-within-an-overlay areas when performing
a search-and-replace.

-- 
 Bastien

Message #32 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2014 11:48:00 -0500

>>>> We lack a way to reveal truly invisible text when performing a search
>>>> and replace.  The URL of a bracket link in Org is an example of such
>>>> truly invisible text.
>>> What do you mean by "truly invisible"?  Does that refer to text that's
>>> marked with an `invisible' text-property (as opposed to an overlay with
>>> that property)?
>> I guess Bastien meant toggling the value of `buffer-invisibility-spec'
>> while isearch is active.  Let's wait for Bastien to confirm this.
> Yes, I do confirm, thanks Juri.

Sounds confused.  I'm asking "how is it made invisible" and you answer by
referencing some way to make it visible.  All forms of invisible are
affected by buffer-invisibility-spec.

> I think the default behavior should be to open both invisible-with-a
> -text-property and invisible-within-an-overlay areas when performing
> a search-and-replace.

So, IIUC you're indeed talking about the text made invisible by
a text-property rather than an overlay, right?

I'm fine with making isearch "reveal" those as well.  Of course, "how"
is an important question: tweaking buffer-invisibility-spec means that
we don't just reveal the part of the text we're interested in, but all
other parts hidden in the same way as well.  An alternative would be to
temporarily remove the text-property.


        Stefan

Message #35 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2014 09:53:50 +0100

Hi Stefan,

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

> So, IIUC you're indeed talking about the text made invisible by
> a text-property rather than an overlay, right?

Yes.

> I'm fine with making isearch "reveal" those as well.  Of course, "how"
> is an important question: tweaking buffer-invisibility-spec means that
> we don't just reveal the part of the text we're interested in, but all
> other parts hidden in the same way as well.  An alternative would be to
> temporarily remove the text-property.

Removing just the text property seems cleaner.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Message #38 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 16:28:41 +0200

Hi Stefan and Juri,

reviving an old bug that continues to bug me.

The very frequent use-case I have is with (setq search-invisible t)
when I try to query-replace a string that's within an org-mode link.

I wish the content of the link could be displayed.

Bastien <bzg <at> altern.org> writes:

>> I'm fine with making isearch "reveal" those as well.  Of course, "how"
>> is an important question: tweaking buffer-invisibility-spec means that
>> we don't just reveal the part of the text we're interested in, but all
>> other parts hidden in the same way as well.  An alternative would be to
>> temporarily remove the text-property.
>
> Removing just the text property seems cleaner.

I guess this solution, though nice, is tricky to implement.  And
thinking about this again, I'd be fine with buffer-invisibility-spec
set to nil temporarily.

What do you think?  If you're okay with the buffer-invisibility-spec
solution, shall I go ahead and try to implement it?

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

Message #41 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 14:11:37 -0400

>> Removing just the text property seems cleaner.
> I guess this solution, though nice, is tricky to implement.

Why do you think so?


        Stefan

Message #44 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 11:50:58 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hi Stefan,

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

>>> Removing just the text property seems cleaner.
>> I guess this solution, though nice, is tricky to implement.
>
> Why do you think so?

I looked at the way isearch does the temporary opening of overlays,
and it looks complex to add another mechanism to temporarily ignore
the 'invisible text property.  At least I don't know how to do this.

Also, I tried a preliminary patches (attached) which I find quite
convenient and seems to do what I expected first when setting
(setq search-invisible t): turning on visible-mode.

The patch is not fully tested and incomplete, as query-replace is
not handled, but that's a start.

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,

-- 
 Bastien

[isearch.el.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Message #47 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 00:34:41 -0400

Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I looked at the way isearch does the temporary opening of overlays,
> and it looks complex to add another mechanism to temporarily ignore
> the 'invisible text property.  At least I don't know how to do this.

I was thinking all this complication could be avoided if we just allowed
(overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible nil) to make text visible.

--- i/src/textprop.c
+++ w/src/textprop.c
@@ -630,14 +630,14 @@ get_char_property_and_overlay (Lisp_Object position, register Lisp_Object prop,
       /* Now check the overlays in order of decreasing priority.  */
       while (--noverlays >= 0)
 	{
-	  Lisp_Object tem = Foverlay_get (overlay_vec[noverlays], prop);
+          Lisp_Object tem = Fplist_member (XOVERLAY (overlay_vec[noverlays])->plist, prop);
 	  if (!NILP (tem))
 	    {
 	      if (overlay)
 		/* Return the overlay we got the property from.  */
 		*overlay = overlay_vec[noverlays];
 	      SAFE_FREE ();
-	      return tem;
+	      return XCAR (XCDR (tem));
 	    }
 	}
       SAFE_FREE ();



> Also, I tried a preliminary patches (attached) which I find quite
> convenient and seems to do what I expected first when setting
> (setq search-invisible t): turning on visible-mode.

This seems like a reasonable, though perhaps making the whole buffer
visible isn't always wanted.

Message #50 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:06:54 +0300

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 00:34:41 -0400
> Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
> 
> I was thinking all this complication could be avoided if we just allowed
> (overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible nil) to make text visible.

But we already do: overlay-get returns nil in that case, and the text
is revealed, so the original code before your proposed changes already
does the job.  What am I missing?  Some context where the above
doesn't work?

Message #53 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 07:15:22 -0400

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 00:34:41 -0400
>> Cc: 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
>> 
>> I was thinking all this complication could be avoided if we just allowed
>> (overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible nil) to make text visible.
>
> But we already do: overlay-get returns nil in that case, and the text
> is revealed, so the original code before your proposed changes already
> does the job.  What am I missing?  Some context where the above
> doesn't work?

Sorry, I wasn't clear.  I was talking about the situation where there is
a non-nil invisible text property (or a different existing overlay with
with a non-nil invisible property).  For example:

    (let ((p (point))
          overlay)
      (insert "(" (propertize "invisible" 'invisible t) ")")
      (setq overlay (make-overlay p (point)))
      ;; Text remains invisible.
      (overlay-put overlay 'invisible nil))

Message #56 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:13:02 -0400

> I was thinking all this complication could be avoided if we just allowed
> (overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible nil) to make text visible.

No need for that.
You can do

    (overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible 'visible)

to get the same result without far-reaching changes to the C code.


        Stefan

Message #59 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:24:03 -0400

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca> writes:

>> I was thinking all this complication could be avoided if we just allowed
>> (overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible nil) to make text visible.
>
> No need for that.

I may have confused things a bit by forgetting to mention I was speaking
of overlays on top of an existing invisible text property (see my reply
to Eli).

> You can do
>
>     (overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible 'visible)
>
> to get the same result without far-reaching changes to the C code.

Um, no, that gives the opposite effect.

(let ((p (point))
      overlay)
  (insert "(" (propertize "invisible" 'invisible t) ")")
  (setq overlay (make-overlay p (point)))
  ;; All text, including parens, becomes invisible.
  (overlay-put overlay 'invisible 'visible))

Message #62 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:45:54 -0400

>> You can do
>>
>>     (overlay-put OVERLAY 'invisible 'visible)
>>
>> to get the same result without far-reaching changes to the C code.
>
> Um, no, that gives the opposite effect.
>
> (let ((p (point))
>       overlay)
>   (insert "(" (propertize "invisible" 'invisible t) ")")
>   (setq overlay (make-overlay p (point)))
>   ;; All text, including parens, becomes invisible.
>   (overlay-put overlay 'invisible 'visible))

You need to use `add-to-invisibility-spec` before that works.  E.g.: 

    (add-to-invisibility-spec 'dummy)
    
that's because of a quirk of the way we treat `invisible` and the
`buffer-invisibility-spec`.


        Stefan
        

PS: To fix this quirk, we should change buffer-invisibility-spec's
default value to nil (or `(t)`, maybe) instead of t.

Message #65 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 18:21:13 +0300

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2019 08:45:54 -0400
> Cc: Bastien <bzg <at> gnu.org>, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> You need to use `add-to-invisibility-spec` before that works.  E.g.: 
> 
>     (add-to-invisibility-spec 'dummy)
>     
> that's because of a quirk of the way we treat `invisible` and the
> `buffer-invisibility-spec`.
> 
> 
>         Stefan
>         
> 
> PS: To fix this quirk, we should change buffer-invisibility-spec's
> default value to nil (or `(t)`, maybe) instead of t.

That'd be confusing, IMO.  If we need to change some of the semantics
of buffer-invisibility-spec, I'd prefer to introduce some new form of
value which would mean "override any other invisibility properties".

Message #68 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 07:40:31 -0400

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>

>> PS: To fix this quirk, we should change buffer-invisibility-spec's
>> default value to nil (or `(t)`, maybe) instead of t.

(t) makes sense, I'd say.

> That'd be confusing, IMO.  If we need to change some of the semantics
> of buffer-invisibility-spec,

It's not a change to semantics though, just the default value.  And
starting from the current default of t, if some code does
(add-to-invisibility-spec 'foo) followed by
(remove-from-invisibility-spec 'foo) you get (t), so arguably just
starting from there in the first place makes things less confusing than
they are now.

Message #71 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 20:02:07 +0300

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>,  bzg <at> gnu.org,  16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 07:40:31 -0400
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
> 
> >> PS: To fix this quirk, we should change buffer-invisibility-spec's
> >> default value to nil (or `(t)`, maybe) instead of t.
> 
> (t) makes sense, I'd say.

The difference (or lack thereof) between t and (t) is something that's
confusing, and should be preferably avoided.

> It's not a change to semantics though, just the default value.  And
> starting from the current default of t, if some code does
> (add-to-invisibility-spec 'foo) followed by
> (remove-from-invisibility-spec 'foo) you get (t), so arguably just
> starting from there in the first place makes things less confusing than
> they are now.

I'd rather we fixed the remove-from-invisibility-spec result than
start promoting (t).

Message #74 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 13:29:20 -0400

> The difference (or lack thereof) between t and (t)

There is a rather large difference between the two.

> is something that's confusing, and should be preferably avoided.

Agreed and the way to avoid it, IMO, is to eliminate the `t` case which
is the weird one out whose behavior you can't rely on since some
other package may come around and call
(remove-from|add-to)-invisibility-spec from under you.


        Stefan

Message #77 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:27:55 -0400

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> >> PS: To fix this quirk, we should change buffer-invisibility-spec's
>> >> default value to nil (or `(t)`, maybe) instead of t.
>> 
>> (t) makes sense, I'd say.
>
> The difference (or lack thereof) between t and (t) is something that's
> confusing, and should be preferably avoided.
>
>> It's not a change to semantics though, just the default value.  And
>> starting from the current default of t, if some code does
>> (add-to-invisibility-spec 'foo) followed by
>> (remove-from-invisibility-spec 'foo) you get (t), so arguably just
>> starting from there in the first place makes things less confusing than
>> they are now.
>
> I'd rather we fixed the remove-from-invisibility-spec result than
> start promoting (t).

Starting from t, (add-to-invisibility-spec 'foo) also has the weird
result that it *reduces* the number of properties which cause
invisibility (from infinity to 2).  It seems unavoidable due to the
semantics of t (hence why we should default to (t) instead).

Message #80 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 18:50:13 +0300

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org,  16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca
> Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 11:27:55 -0400
> 
> > I'd rather we fixed the remove-from-invisibility-spec result than
> > start promoting (t).
> 
> Starting from t, (add-to-invisibility-spec 'foo) also has the weird
> result that it *reduces* the number of properties which cause
> invisibility (from infinity to 2).

Yes, but I don't see that as a problem.  buffer-invisibility-spec is a
filter, so adding to it could have that effect.

Message #83 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 16:06:12 -0400

>> Starting from t, (add-to-invisibility-spec 'foo) also has the weird
>> result that it *reduces* the number of properties which cause
>> invisibility (from infinity to 2).
> Yes, but I don't see that as a problem.

Here's another way to look at it:

Give me a circumstance where an Elisp package can make use of the fact
that buffer-invisibility-spec defaults to t?

I can't come up with any, because there are only 3 cases:
- the package doesn't use `invisible` and hence doesn't care.
- the package only uses the `t` value of the `invisible` property, so it
  doesn't care because add-to-invisibility-spec always puts `t` in the list.
- the package uses non-nil, non-t value of the `invisible` property.
  In this case, either the package:
  - calls add-to-invisibility-spec to register that value, in which case
    it doesn't care.
  - doesn't call add-to-invisibility-spec, so the text is only invisible
    until some other unrelated package comes around and calls
    add-to-invisibility-spec, thus causing undesired behavior.

So any package which makes use of this default value is vulnerable to
being broken by activation of some unrelated package.


        Stefan

Message #86 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 07:23:33 +0300

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>,  bzg <at> gnu.org,  16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 11 May 2019 16:06:12 -0400
> 
> >> Starting from t, (add-to-invisibility-spec 'foo) also has the weird
> >> result that it *reduces* the number of properties which cause
> >> invisibility (from infinity to 2).
> > Yes, but I don't see that as a problem.
> 
> Here's another way to look at it:
> 
> Give me a circumstance where an Elisp package can make use of the fact
> that buffer-invisibility-spec defaults to t?

That's the wrong way of looking at the issue, if you want to talk
about the aspects that I called "confusing".  I see no technical
problems with using (t) instead of t, I just said that it confuses the
heck out of me, because its semantics is not clear by just looking at
the value.

Message #89 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 11:35:01 -0400

> That's the wrong way of looking at the issue, if you want to talk
> about the aspects that I called "confusing".  I see no technical
> problems with using (t) instead of t, I just said that it confuses the
> heck out of me, because its semantics is not clear by just looking at
> the value.

I'm sorry, I misunderstood.  I don't see anything confusing about any of
this, I thought you were opposed to changing the default because you
thought it was a useful value (plus the usual backward compatibility
risks).

Regarding the possible new defaults and their possible confusing
qualities, then:

- could you explain what you find confusing about `(t)`?

- Personally I'm fine with either `(t)` and `nil` as default values.

- Currently an `invisible` property with value `t` "always" makes the
  text invisible without having to pay attention to
  buffer-invisibility-spec, so `(t)` is more backward compatible.  I put
  quotes around "always" because it's always possible for someone to
  come around and set buffer-invisibility-spec to nil by hand, and
  because until not too long ago, remove-from-invisibility-spec
  occasionally ended up setting buffer-invisibility-spec to nil.


        Stefan

Message #92 received at 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: bzg <at> gnu.org, 16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#16493: 24.3.50;
 (setq search-invisible t) is useless, let's allow to turn
 visible-mode temporarily on
Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 18:59:43 +0300

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: npostavs <at> gmail.com,  bzg <at> gnu.org,  16493 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 12 May 2019 11:35:01 -0400
> 
> - could you explain what you find confusing about `(t)`?

It's neither nil nor t.  So its semantics is unclear, until you read
the documentation.  I also envision people making mistakes and using
just t.

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