GNU bug report logs - #19822
url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is associated with the URI

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
To: submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is associated with the
 URI 
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2015 16:55:35 +0000

Package:  emacs
Severity: wishlist

	The handling of the news: (nntp:), irc:, and (as it seems) ftp:
	(file:) URI schemes is implemented in such a way that a
	/successful/ url-retrieve call is /not/ in fact guaranteed to
	return a “retrieved document” of any kind.  Consider, e. g.:

(let ((url-proxy-services nil))
  (list (url-retrieve "news://news.aioe.org/alt.sources"
                      (lambda (&rest any) (message "news: %S" any)))
        (url-retrieve "irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/x-test-channel"
                      (lambda (&rest any) (message "irc:  %S" any)))))

	Here, the first call starts up Gnus and opens a *Summary* buffer
	for the group; the second starts Rcirc by default; either call
	returns nil.

	I’d expect for these two calls to instead produce the buffers
	/describing/ those respective resources – the newsgroup (say,
	its XOVER data) and the IRC channel (the server responses to a
	few IRC commands issued for the channel.)  That is: I’d expect
	url-retrieve to behave much like wget(1), – /not/ like, say,
	run-mailcap(1).

	Naturally, this is orthogonal to the use of Gnus, Rcirc, etc. to
	do the actual job; and also to the ability to spawn them via
	M-x browse-url.  (Which seems unsupported, anyway.)

	As for the possible implementation, there may be a separate
	dynamic variable (say, url-retrieve-action) to tell the scheme
	handlers whether they should only try to retrieve the URI (and
	signal an error if not supported), or that they /may/ resort to
	the current behavior (i. e., start up some scheme-specific
	interaction facility.)

	Alternatively, url-retrieve may be changed to pass an additional
	non-nil argument to the scheme handler function in the case that
	the call is not intended to result in further user interaction.
	There may be either a separate call (url-run?) to request such
	an interaction, or a new argument to url-retrieve.

-- 
FSF associate member #7257  http://boycottsystemd.org/  … 3013 B6A0 230E 334A

Message #8 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Cc: 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 20:00:34 +0100

Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net> writes:

> The handling of the news: (nntp:), irc:, and (as it seems) ftp:
> (file:) URI schemes is implemented in such a way that a
> /successful/ url-retrieve call is /not/ in fact guaranteed to
> return a “retrieved document” of any kind.  Consider, e. g.:
>
> (let ((url-proxy-services nil))
> (list (url-retrieve "news://news.aioe.org/alt.sources"
> (lambda (&rest any) (message "news: %S" any)))
> (url-retrieve "irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/x-test-channel"
> (lambda (&rest any) (message "irc:  %S" any)))))
>
> Here, the first call starts up Gnus and opens a *Summary* buffer
> for the group; the second starts Rcirc by default; either call
> returns nil.

I think all these non-http{s,} things in the URL library should be
marked obsolete and removed.  There is very little utility to them (some
have been broken for years without anybody noticing), and they are very
fiddly to maintain.

Anybody mind if I remove them for Emacs 25.2?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #11 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Cc: 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2015 15:47:55 -0800 (PST)

> I think all these non-http{s,} things in the URL library should be
> marked obsolete and removed.  There is very little utility to them (some
> have been broken for years without anybody noticing), and they are very
> fiddly to maintain.
> 
> Anybody mind if I remove them for Emacs 25.2?

1. Such a proposal should explicitly list each of the "things" you
   propose to mark as obsolete.

2. Marking something as obsolete (deprecating it) does not imply
   that you can remove it.  Normally (although I do know that Emacs
   is not necessarily normal) deprecated "things" remain, and remain
   supported for quite some time before they are desupported.  And
   that means that their supporting code remains (is not removed).

   Or did you perhaps mean remove only from "the URL library",
   and not remove from Emacs?

(All of this said, I probably do not care, personally, what you
do with the unspecified "non-http{s,} things in the URL library"
that you want to remove.)

Message #14 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>, emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 17:07:40 -0500

On Fri, 25 Dec 2015 20:00:34 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> wrote: 

LI> I think all these non-http{s,} things in the URL library should be
LI> marked obsolete and removed.  There is very little utility to them (some
LI> have been broken for years without anybody noticing), and they are very
LI> fiddly to maintain.

LI> Anybody mind if I remove them for Emacs 25.2?

I'd leave at least the ftp and file protocols.

Ted

Message #17 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Cc: 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2015 23:30:53 +0100

Ted Zlatanov <tzz <at> lifelogs.com> writes:

> I'd leave at least the ftp and file protocols.

Mm, yes.  But the rest could be retired, I think.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #20 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 03:03:53 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net> writes:
>
>> The handling of the news: (nntp:), irc:, and (as it seems) ftp:
>> (file:) URI schemes is implemented in such a way that a
>> /successful/ url-retrieve call is /not/ in fact guaranteed to
>> return a “retrieved document” of any kind.  Consider, e. g.:
>>
>> (let ((url-proxy-services nil))
>> (list (url-retrieve "news://news.aioe.org/alt.sources"
>> (lambda (&rest any) (message "news: %S" any)))
>> (url-retrieve "irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/x-test-channel"
>> (lambda (&rest any) (message "irc:  %S" any)))))
>>
>> Here, the first call starts up Gnus and opens a *Summary* buffer
>> for the group; the second starts Rcirc by default; either call
>> returns nil.
>
> I think all these non-http{s,} things in the URL library should be
> marked obsolete and removed.  There is very little utility to them (some
> have been broken for years without anybody noticing), and they are very
> fiddly to maintain.
>
> Anybody mind if I remove them for Emacs 25.2?

Hi Lars,

This is a good idea, but it seems like it was never done?  There was
no one protesting the proposal at the time (December 2015).  Perhaps
we should move some of them to obsolete/ before Emacs 27.1?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #23 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 07:47:43 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> This is a good idea, but it seems like it was never done?  There was
> no one protesting the proposal at the time (December 2015).  Perhaps
> we should move some of them to obsolete/ before Emacs 27.1?

I think that would be good, but Eli should probably weigh in here.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #26 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 10:21:06 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 07:47:43 +0200
> Cc: 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
> 
> Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
> 
> > This is a good idea, but it seems like it was never done?  There was
> > no one protesting the proposal at the time (December 2015).  Perhaps
> > we should move some of them to obsolete/ before Emacs 27.1?
> 
> I think that would be good, but Eli should probably weigh in here.

I'm not sure I understand the proposal: we are being asked to remove
ftp:, news:, etc. from being supported by the URL library?  I think
those protocols are still widely used, no?

Message #29 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:30:36 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I'm not sure I understand the proposal: we are being asked to remove
> ftp:, news:, etc. from being supported by the URL library?  I think
> those protocols are still widely used, no?

Not ftp:, but news: and gopher: and the other obscure ones.

They aren't used a lot and some of them do not work at all currently.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #32 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 11:22:20 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se,  19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  ivan <at> siamics.net
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:30:36 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I'm not sure I understand the proposal: we are being asked to remove
> > ftp:, news:, etc. from being supported by the URL library?  I think
> > those protocols are still widely used, no?
> 
> Not ftp:, but news: and gopher: and the other obscure ones.
> 
> They aren't used a lot and some of them do not work at all currently.

How are network news URL referenced, if not by 'news:'?

Anyway, can we please have an explicit list of those we'd like to
deprecate, and some usage numbers to back that?  I'd like to have some
more firm basis for this decision, if possible.

Thanks.

Message #35 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 16:40:02 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> How are network news URL referenced, if not by 'news:'?

They aren't, really.  You use a newsreader to read news -- no modern
browser supports news: URLs.

> Anyway, can we please have an explicit list of those we'd like to
> deprecate, and some usage numbers to back that?  I'd like to have some
> more firm basis for this decision, if possible.

Geez.  Gathering the list of schemes supported is more work than I
thought, because it's not an explicit list.

Here's the schemes it supports:

imap:
file:
http:
https:
ldap:
mail:
mailto:
man:
info:
data:
news:
snews:
nfs:
ftp:
rlogin:
telnet:
tn3270:


Of these, file:, http:, https:, data: and ftp: are the only ones that
are useful.

But on consideration, perhaps it's just best to leave them all as they
are to smoulder.  As you may remember, there's a with-fetched-url branch
that reimplements the entire URL interface, and it only supports the
modern schemes.  (I'm planning on merging when master goes to Emacs 28.)

So we can leave the url.el interfaces alone as a backwards-compatible
stuff and then pension off the entire url.el machinery in, say, Emacs 34.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #38 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 18:05:45 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se,  19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  ivan <at> siamics.net
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 16:40:02 +0200
> 
> But on consideration, perhaps it's just best to leave them all as they
> are to smoulder.  As you may remember, there's a with-fetched-url branch
> that reimplements the entire URL interface, and it only supports the
> modern schemes.  (I'm planning on merging when master goes to Emacs 28.)
> 
> So we can leave the url.el interfaces alone as a backwards-compatible
> stuff and then pension off the entire url.el machinery in, say, Emacs 34.

Fine with me, thanks.

Message #41 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 15:19:28 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Of these, file:, http:, https:, data: and ftp: are the only ones that
> are useful.
>
> But on consideration, perhaps it's just best to leave them all as they
> are to smoulder.  As you may remember, there's a with-fetched-url branch
> that reimplements the entire URL interface, and it only supports the
> modern schemes.  (I'm planning on merging when master goes to Emacs 28.)
>
> So we can leave the url.el interfaces alone as a backwards-compatible
> stuff and then pension off the entire url.el machinery in, say, Emacs 34.

I don't feel very strongly about this, but I'm curious: Why don't you
want to obsolete at least some of them?  I think they add user
confusion and are just not very helpful.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a middle ground here: to only obsolete the
very low hanging fruit.  To be more concrete, it doesn't seem to me
that it would take much effort to immediately obsolete url-irc.el,
url-news.el, url-imap.el and url-ns.el.

I could volunteer to cook up a patch if that's indeed something we
want to do.  Otherwise, I suggest to close this bug report as wontfix.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #44 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 16:37:35 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 15:19:28 +0200
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
> 
> > So we can leave the url.el interfaces alone as a backwards-compatible
> > stuff and then pension off the entire url.el machinery in, say, Emacs 34.
> 
> I don't feel very strongly about this, but I'm curious: Why don't you
> want to obsolete at least some of them?  I think they add user
> confusion and are just not very helpful.

How would obsoleting them help avoid that confusion?

Message #47 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 15:44:15 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> > I don't feel very strongly about this, but I'm curious: Why don't you
> > want to obsolete at least some of them?  I think they add user
> > confusion and are just not very helpful.
>
> How would obsoleting them help avoid that confusion?

I think in at least two ways:

1. Obsoleting is a fairly strong sign that this is code that it's
probably better to avoid.

2. AFAIU, the point of obsoleting a file is to eventually remove it.
If it doesn't exist, it can't confuse anyone.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #50 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 15:56:15 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> I don't feel very strongly about this, but I'm curious: Why don't you
> want to obsolete at least some of them?  I think they add user
> confusion and are just not very helpful.

I think an across-the-board obsoletion is easier to communicate than
doing it piece by piece.

But I don't feel very strongly about this, either.

> Personally, I wouldn't mind a middle ground here: to only obsolete the
> very low hanging fruit.  To be more concrete, it doesn't seem to me
> that it would take much effort to immediately obsolete url-irc.el,
> url-news.el, url-imap.el and url-ns.el.

Oh, I missed irc: and ns:.  :-/  Yes, those are pretty useless...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #53 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:06:00 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> > I don't feel very strongly about this, but I'm curious: Why don't you
> > want to obsolete at least some of them?  I think they add user
> > confusion and are just not very helpful.
>
> I think an across-the-board obsoletion is easier to communicate than
> doing it piece by piece.

Good point, thanks.

> > Personally, I wouldn't mind a middle ground here: to only obsolete the
> > very low hanging fruit.  To be more concrete, it doesn't seem to me
> > that it would take much effort to immediately obsolete url-irc.el,
> > url-news.el, url-imap.el and url-ns.el.
>
> Oh, I missed irc: and ns:.  :-/  Yes, those are pretty useless...

Given the above, how about just obsoleting url-ns.el?  This file
handles Netscape configuration files, and there should be no problem
communicating the irrelevancy of that.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #56 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 16:24:39 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> Given the above, how about just obsoleting url-ns.el?  This file
> handles Netscape configuration files, and there should be no problem
> communicating the irrelevancy of that.

Patch attached.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

[0001-Move-url-ns.el-to-obsolete.patch (application/octet-stream, attachment)]

Message #59 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 17:51:49 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 15:44:15 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > > I don't feel very strongly about this, but I'm curious: Why don't you
> > > want to obsolete at least some of them?  I think they add user
> > > confusion and are just not very helpful.
> >
> > How would obsoleting them help avoid that confusion?
> 
> I think in at least two ways:
> 
> 1. Obsoleting is a fairly strong sign that this is code that it's
> probably better to avoid.
> 
> 2. AFAIU, the point of obsoleting a file is to eventually remove it.
> If it doesn't exist, it can't confuse anyone.

I understand how removing will end the confusion.  What I don't quite
understand is how obsoleting will help avoiding the confusion.  I
think the obsolete messages just add to the confusion, not take away.

Lars suggested to let this stuff become fallback, which means users
will see the confusing stuff much less frequently.  That made sense to
me.

Message #62 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 17:13:34 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I understand how removing will end the confusion.  What I don't quite
> understand is how obsoleting will help avoiding the confusion.  I
> think the obsolete messages just add to the confusion, not take away.

I see your point.

> Lars suggested to let this stuff become fallback, which means users
> will see the confusing stuff much less frequently.  That made sense to
> me.

Yes, I agree.

However, I did provide a patch to obsolete the Netscape code, as a
special case.  Please let me know if that patch should be installed or
not -- either way is fine with me.

Once we have a decision on that, I think we should close this
particular bug as wontfix.  Perhaps we should also look over to see if
there are any other bug reports which deserve closing too, since any
efforts are probably better spent improving the with-fetched-url
branch.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #65 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 17:13:58 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> +** The url-ns.el library is now marked obsolete.
> +This library is used to open configuration files for the long defunct
> +web browser Netscape, and is no longer relevant.

Looks good to me.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #68 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, ivan <at> siamics.net
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 01 Oct 2019 18:24:26 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 17:13:34 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
> 
> However, I did provide a patch to obsolete the Netscape code, as a
> special case.  Please let me know if that patch should be installed or
> not -- either way is fine with me.

I'll let Lars decide.

Thanks.

Message #71 received at 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 19822 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Ivan Shmakov <ivan <at> siamics.net>
Subject: Re: bug#19822: url-retrieve: allow to fail when no document is
 associated with the URI
Date: Tue, 1 Oct 2019 18:07:26 +0200

tags 19822 + wontfix
close 19822
thanks

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> > +** The url-ns.el library is now marked obsolete.
> > +This library is used to open configuration files for the long defunct
> > +web browser Netscape, and is no longer relevant.
>
> Looks good to me.

Thanks, now pushed to master as commit 41f59e71e2.

I'm also closing this bug as wontfix, since the consensus seems to be
that it's not worth making any changes here at this point.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

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