GNU bug report logs - #23372
25.0.93; `text-quoting-style' missing from manual and from customize

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com (N. Jackson)
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 25.0.93; `text-quoting-style' missing from manual and from customize
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 09:59:25 -0300

While reading the Emacs NEWS file I was happy to discover that the
variable `text-quoting-style' can be used to see the conventional
readable and unambiguous quoting style for symbols in help buffers etc..

However, when I tried to set it, I discovered that it is missing from
Customize.

[Putting (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) in my init file works, but I
prefer to use custom-set-variables as a matter of course to benefit
from its advantages.]

Additionally, when I looked in the Emacs Manual, I couldn't find an
entry for `text-quoting-style'.


In GNU Emacs 25.0.93.1 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.18.9)
 of 2016-04-23 built on moondust
Repository revision: 5c587fdff164e8b90beb47f6da64b4884290e40a
Windowing system distributor 'Fedora Project', version 11.0.11803000
System Description:	Fedora release 23 (Twenty Three)

Configured using:
 'configure --enable-checking=yes,glyphs --enable-check-lisp-object-type
 'CFLAGS=-O0 -g3 -gdwarf-4''

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND DBUS GCONF GSETTINGS NOTIFY
ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11

Important settings:
  value of $LC_MONETARY: en_DK.utf8
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: en_DK.utf8
  value of $LC_TIME: en_DK.utf8
  value of $LANG: en_CA.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=ibus
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Group

Minor modes in effect:
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  delete-selection-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
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  auto-encryption-mode: t
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Recent messages:
Reading active file via nnnil...done
Reading active file from archive via nnfolder...
Opening nnfolder server on archive...done
Reading active file from archive via nnfolder...done
Reading active file via nnfolder...
Opening nnfolder server...done
Reading incoming mail from file...
nnfolder: Reading incoming mail (no new mail)...done
Reading active file via nnfolder...done
Checking new news...done
Quit

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Message #8 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>
To: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: 25.0.93; text-quoting-style missing from manual and from customize
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 15:26:18 -0700

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When text-quoting-style was introduced, Stefan Monnier (then the 
maintainer) did not see the need the the variable at all, and wrote "At 
the very least it should not be a Custom var." See:


https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-08/msg01020.html


Eventually I vaguely recall that Stefan was persuaded to put up with the 
variable. Still, I think he's right that it's not suitable for a user 
option. I installed the attached patch to try to document this better. 
Since it's intended for experts, the variable is documented in the 
reference manual, not the user manual.

[0001-Say-why-text-quoting-style-is-not-a-user-option.patch (application/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #13 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu>, "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#23372: 25.0.93; text-quoting-style missing from manual and
 from customize
Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:41:23 -0700 (PDT)

It _should_ be a user option.  You've radically changed the
default behavior of Emacs.  Give individual users a simple
way to undo your choice.  This is at least as important as
letting a user change the default appearance of a face.

And yes, it should be prominently documented.

Message #18 received at 23372-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, eggert <at> cs.ucla.edu, 23372-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#23372: 25.0.93;
 text-quoting-style missing from manual and from customize
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 09:30:06 +0300

> Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2016 18:41:23 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> Cc: 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> It _should_ be a user option.  You've radically changed the
> default behavior of Emacs.  Give individual users a simple
> way to undo your choice.  This is at least as important as
> letting a user change the default appearance of a face.

I don't think we know enough about the impact of this feature to make
that decision at this time.  We will have to see how it is accepted by
the users out there first.  It could be deemed by the majority as the
best invention since sliced bread.  Having a variable to disable it is
a good fire escape for now.

> And yes, it should be prominently documented.

It is, just not in the user manual.

Closing.

Message #21 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>
To: 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, eliz <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#23372: 25.0.93;
 text-quoting-style missing from manual and from customize
Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:02:16 -0400

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>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> It _should_ be a user option. You've radically changed the default behavior
>> of Emacs. Give individual users a simple way to undo your choice. This is
>> at least as important as letting a user change the default appearance of a
>> face.

> I don't think we know enough about the impact of this feature to make that
> decision at this time. We will have to see how it is accepted by the users
> out there first. It could be deemed by the majority as the best invention
> since sliced bread. Having a variable to disable it is a good fire escape
> for now.

I believe it should be a customizable option. Reason: I want to customize that
option and turn it off; and I'd much rather use customize-option to do it than
add Lisp code to my .emacs (which I almost never have to do for variables, so
I don't see why this should be a special case).

I don't think we need to wait to hear a ruckus before we offer people a way to
return to the Emacs-they-know-and-love. So, would someone please make this
variable into a customizable option? I can do so by the weekend if no one else
gets to it.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

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Message #24 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#23372: 25.0.93;
 text-quoting-style missing from manual and from customize
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 09:43:53 +0300

> From: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org,  nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com
> Date: Tue, 26 Apr 2016 20:02:16 -0400
> 
> >> It _should_ be a user option. You've radically changed the default behavior
> >> of Emacs. Give individual users a simple way to undo your choice. This is
> >> at least as important as letting a user change the default appearance of a
> >> face.
> 
> > I don't think we know enough about the impact of this feature to make that
> > decision at this time. We will have to see how it is accepted by the users
> > out there first. It could be deemed by the majority as the best invention
> > since sliced bread. Having a variable to disable it is a good fire escape
> > for now.
> 
> I believe it should be a customizable option. Reason: I want to customize that
> option and turn it off; and I'd much rather use customize-option to do it than
> add Lisp code to my .emacs (which I almost never have to do for variables, so
> I don't see why this should be a special case).

I don't object too strongly to having this as a defcustom, but I still
want to point out that having 2 (or 3) people who want this as a
defcustom is not necessarily a large enough sample for us to change
past decisions before we release even a single Emacs version with the
feature.  It is easy to make a variable into a defcustom; the inverse
is generally much harder.

> So, would someone please make this variable into a customizable
> option? I can do so by the weekend if no one else gets to it.

If it's going to be a defcustom, I guess we need suitable changes in
NEWS and in the user manual.

Message #27 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#23372: 25.0.93;
 text-quoting-style missing from manual and from customize
Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2016 15:10:44 -0400

>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> It is easy to make a variable into a defcustom; the inverse is generally
> much harder.

That _is_ a rather strong argument...

The main reason I'd like a customization option along with the introduction of
the feature, is that it's a departure from *very* long-standiing practice, so
unless you happen to like Unicode quotes, I'm predicting that several people
will want a way to get back the sort of display they've been used to seeing
since antiquity.

Do any others object to having a customization option along with release of
the feature?  I'm cross-posting this to Emacs-devel to get more opinions.

The question is: Should `text-quoting-style' be customizable in 25.1, or
should it be a variable, thus requiring Lisp code to change it for now?

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Message #30 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com,
 emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#23372: 25.0.93; text-quoting-style missing from manual and
 from customize
Date: Thu, 28 Apr 2016 21:45:01 +0000

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>
> Do any others object to having a customization option along with release of
> the feature?  I'm cross-posting this to Emacs-devel to get more opinions.
>
> The question is: Should `text-quoting-style' be customizable in 25.1, or
> should it be a variable, thus requiring Lisp code to change it for now?
>

If a user's opinion counts, I now like the curved quotes (thanks Paul and
others!). The quotes look great! There was initial resistance from my side
as I saw a lot of inconsistencies. But by now, all the inconsistencies that
at least I saw are resolved. Earlier I wanted to switch back to quotes
being displayed as ` and ', but not anymore :).

So I do not mind the quotes being displayed curly by default and that
option still not being a defcustom.

If we see a lot of emacs users unhappy because of this, then may be this is
converted to defcustom in 25.2? Because as Eli said:

> It is easy to make a variable into a defcustom; the inverse is generally
> much harder.
-- 

-- 
Kaushal Modi

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Message #33 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Nicolas Petton <nicolas <at> petton.fr>
To: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#23372: 25.0.93;
 text-quoting-style missing from manual and from customize
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:54:35 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com> writes:

> The question is: Should `text-quoting-style' be customizable in 25.1, or
> should it be a variable, thus requiring Lisp code to change it for
> now?

I think I'd go for a defcustom.

Nico

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Message #36 received at 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>
To: Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi <at> gmail.com>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 23372 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 emacs-devel <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#23372: 25.0.93;
 text-quoting-style missing from manual and from customize
Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2016 14:22:14 -0700

>>>>> Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi <at> gmail.com> writes:

> If we see a lot of emacs users unhappy because of this, then may be this is
> converted to defcustom in 25.2? Because as Eli said:

OK, I'm fine with that, as it seems the path of greatest caution.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

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