GNU bug report logs - #34390
package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord)
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 16:49:05 +0000

Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
longer in active development".

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html

It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
this report from M-x package-list-packages

  dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
  eglot              1.4           incompat   gnu        Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
  kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.


Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.


  company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
  dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
  dash-functional    2.15.0        dependency            Collection of useful combinators for Emacs Lisp
  direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs


The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
other line which shows dash is installed.

I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
Version Installed". Both a bit long.

Message #8 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord)
Cc: 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 17:10:53 +0000

phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) writes:

> Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
> probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
> longer in active development".
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html
>
> It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
> this report from M-x package-list-packages
>
>   dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
>   eglot 1.4 incompat gnu Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
>   kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.
>
>
> Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.
>
>
>   company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
>   dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
>   dash-functional 2.15.0 dependency Collection of useful combinators for Emacs
> Lisp
>   direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs
>
>
> The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
> other line which shows dash is installed.
>
> I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
> Version Installed". Both a bit long.

How about "shadowed" or similar?

-- 
Basil

Message #11 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk>
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 11:15:05 -0600

Basil L. Contovounesios writes:

> phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) writes:
>
>> Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
>> probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
>> longer in active development".
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html
>>
>> It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
>> this report from M-x package-list-packages
>>
>>   dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
>>   eglot 1.4 incompat gnu Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
>>   kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.
>>
>>
>> Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.
>>
>>
>>   company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
>>   dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
>>   dash-functional 2.15.0 dependency Collection of useful combinators for Emacs
>> Lisp
>>   direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs
>>
>>
>> The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
>> other line which shows dash is installed.
>>
>> I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
>> Version Installed". Both a bit long.
>
> How about "shadowed" or similar?

The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
term to be useful and nice.

Message #14 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk>
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 18:16:45 +0100

"Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie> writes:

>
> How about "shadowed" or similar?

"superseded"?

Message #17 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net>
Cc: 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk>
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 17:25:48 +0000

Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Basil L. Contovounesios writes:
>
>> How about "shadowed" or similar?
>
> The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
> term to be useful and nice.

SGTM.  Though if one wanted to be really pedantic I think they could
argue that a package (either installed or uninstalled) could be
superseded by another package (again regardless of whether it's
installed), whereas shadowing can only occur if both packages/versions
are installed, IIUC.

-- 
Basil

Message #20 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "brettg <at> posteo.net" <brettg <at> posteo.net>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk>
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 11:42:35 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

The statement of superseded as used by Guix is that it has a reference pointer to what it is superseded by, and will either point to a different package definition of a new version of the original package.
I think as long as the terminology is clear, and what it is superseded by is iterated properly, we are in good shape.
Brett Gilio
------ Original message------From: Basil L. ContovounesiosDate: Fri, Feb 8, 2019 11:34 AMTo: Brett Gilio;Cc: 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org;Phillip Lord;Subject:bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer Used"
Brett Gilio  writes:

> Basil L. Contovounesios writes:
>
>> How about "shadowed" or similar?
>
> The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
> term to be useful and nice.

SGTM.  Though if one wanted to be really pedantic I think they could
argue that a package (either installed or uninstalled) could be
superseded by another package (again regardless of whether it's
installed), whereas shadowing can only occur if both packages/versions
are installed, IIUC.

-- 
Basil

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #23 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: brettg <at> posteo.net
Cc: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>, 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Phillip Lord <phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk>
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 17:01:13 -0500

> The statement of superseded as used by Guix is that it has a reference
> pointer to what it is superseded by, and will either point to a different
> package definition of a new version of the original package.

Regardless if we change "obsolete" to "superseded" or something else,
I think making the word into a link/button that explains itself would be
a great improvement.


        Stefan

Message #26 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>, 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 brettg <at> posteo.net, Phillip Lord <phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk>
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2019 17:50:23 -0600

Stefan Monnier writes:

>> The statement of superseded as used by Guix is that it has a reference
>> pointer to what it is superseded by, and will either point to a different
>> package definition of a new version of the original package.
>
> Regardless if we change "obsolete" to "superseded" or something else,
> I think making the word into a link/button that explains itself would be
> a great improvement.
>
>
>         Stefan

Agreed, knowing what the package definition is point to for
upgrade/replacement is a necessary step.

Brett Gilio

Message #29 received at 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net>
Cc: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>, 34390 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Phillip Lord <phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk>
Subject: Re: bug#34390: package.el says "Obsolete" when it means "No Longer
 Used"
Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:45:25 +0200

Brett Gilio <brettg <at> posteo.net> writes:

> Basil L. Contovounesios writes:
>
>> phillip.lord <at> russet.org.uk (Phillip Lord) writes:
>>
>>> Currently package.el reports packages as "Obsolete" when this is
>>> probably not a good choice of word, as it is being interpreted as "no
>>> longer in active development".
>>>
>>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-gnu-emacs/2019-02/msg00070.html
>>>
>>> It happens when several versions of a package are installed. Consider
>>> this report from M-x package-list-packages
>>>
>>>   dash               2.12.0        obsolete              A modern list library for Emacs
>>>   eglot 1.4 incompat gnu Client for Language Server Protocol (LSP) servers
>>>   kiwix              0.4.0         incompat   melpa-s... Kiwix interface and support.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dash is showing here are obsolete because in my installation 2.15.0 is installed.
>>>
>>>
>>>   company            0.9.9         dependency            Modular text completion framework
>>>   dash               2.15.0        dependency            A modern list library for Emacs
>>>   dash-functional 2.15.0 dependency Collection of useful combinators for Emacs
>>> Lisp
>>>   direnv             1.4.0         dependency            direnv support for emacs
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem is "obsolete" line appears quite some distance away from
>>> other line which shows dash is installed.
>>>
>>> I would suggested "installed but outdated" perhaps. Or "More Recent
>>> Version Installed". Both a bit long.
>>
>> How about "shadowed" or similar?

I think that's the wrong term, because it implies that it is currently unused.

> The Guix package manager uses a term "superseded." I quite find this
> term to be useful and nice.

I guess that could work, but I don't find it very user friendly.

How about "upgradable"?  That makes it clear that it's both installed
and that it can be upgraded.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

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