GNU bug report logs - #37327
Simplifying access to built-in tutorial

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Bug GNU Emacs <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial
Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:39:13 +0200

Hello,

I would like to present an idea of simplifying tutorial access, which
is described below.

1.  Change 'help-with-tutorial' to act like
    'help-with-tutorial-spec-language' by default.

2.  Remove 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language'.

3.  Change "Emacs Tutorial" in "Help" menu to "Emacs Tutorial...".

- The "(choose language)" part won't be needed, because there will be
  no other tutorial entry, so even unsure people will have to choose
  "Emacs Tutorial..." (dots because of additional choice in the next
  step, convention?).

4.  Remove "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." from "Help" menu.

5.  Remove key binding to Tutorial, i.e. 'C-h t', as it won't be
    needed.

- In the "Emacs manual" (Preface) there is

    "To run the tutorial, start Emacs and type C-h t."

  The problem is people may not know what 'C-h t' means, it's
  explained later in point "1.2 The Echo Area".  So it will be easier
  to tell them to go to menu bar, which is by default in both GUI and
  TUI Emacs, and click "Help" and then "Emacs Tutorial...", which is
  why key binding is not needed any more.  Of course this sentence
  will change to something like:

    "To run the tutorial, start Emacs and click `Help' in Menu Bar,
    then `Emacs Tutorial...' and choose language."

6.  Update "Emacs manual" in like 3 places (search for "tutorial").

7.  Optionally list of languages could use native languages names
    instead of English names, e.g. "Deutsch" or "Deutsch (German)" or
    "Deutsch (GER)" instead of "German".

- Unfortunately I'm not sure how well it would work with e.g. Chinese
  characters (slower loading time, because of the fonts).  Also
  I don't know whether these names are defined in Emacs or are they
  read from the file name.  If the former - redefine, if the latter -
  alias, i.e. Deutsch would point to file German?


In the end access will be more streamlined.  If someone wants tutorial
in his native or different language - it doesn't matter.  The path is
the same - no additional code (and menu entries), no guessing language
environment, etc.  As a bonus, one more free key to bind to something
useful, will be available.


S. U.

GNU Emacs 26.2 (build 1, i686-w64-mingw32) of 2019-04-13

Message #8 received at 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:18:16 +0300

> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 6 Sep 2019 19:39:13 +0200
> 
> I would like to present an idea of simplifying tutorial access, which
> is described below.
> 
> 1.  Change 'help-with-tutorial' to act like
>      'help-with-tutorial-spec-language' by default.
> 
> 2.  Remove 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language'.

I don't think I like this, not at this time, anyway.  English is still
the main language for learning to use Emacs; the tutorials in other
languages are mainly for people who have difficulties in understanding
English to the degree that it gets in their way of learning Emacs.

Thanks.

Message #11 received at 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com
Cc: 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 22:03:23 +0300

> Date: Fri, 06 Sep 2019 21:18:16 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> English is still the main language for learning to use Emacs; the
> tutorials in other languages are mainly for people who have
> difficulties in understanding English to the degree that it gets in
> their way of learning Emacs.

Also, and perhaps more importantly, the English version of the
tutorial is maintained by the Emacs developers, so is always up to
date; whereas the translations are updated by translators if and when
they become available, and so could potentially become outdated for
some periods of time.

Message #14 received at 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:20:39 +0200

>> English is still the main language for learning to use Emacs; the
>> tutorials in other languages are mainly for people who have
>> difficulties in understanding English (...)
>
> (...) more importantly, the English version (...) is maintained by
> the Emacs developers, so is always up to date; (...)  the
> translations are updated by translators if and when they become
> available, and so could potentially become outdated (...)

1.  English version is still among languages.  Additionally you could
change its name to "English (default)" or "English (official)" to
emphasize that it is recommended one.  You could even add it as
default argument - "Language (default English):".

2.  If English version is the recommended way, then why 'C-h t' loads
by default version that corresponds with user language environment,
i.e. if I type it I get Polish version?  If English version is most
up-to-date it should be loaded by default no matter what (I think
Emacs 25.2 behaved this way), and then the rest should be optional and
only available through 'help-with-tutorial-spec-language'.

Message #17 received at 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2019 13:25:28 +0300

> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 11:20:39 +0200
> 
> 1.  English version is still among languages.

But the user will have to select a language anyway, which is one more
potentially annoying op.

> 2.  If English version is the recommended way, then why 'C-h t' loads
> by default version that corresponds with user language environment,
> i.e. if I type it I get Polish version?  If

Arguably, a bug.

Message #20 received at 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial
Date: Sat, 7 Sep 2019 21:31:21 +0200

> But the user will have to select a language anyway, which is one more
> potentially annoying op.

We are talking about beginners and activity that'll be done... once?
I cannot find a reason why clicking "Emacs Tutorial..." then selecting
language (including English) would be annoying - it will be, in
case of "Language (default English):", typing RET.  I do find it
logical: 1st - select tutorial, 2nd - select language.  Plain and
simple.

>> 2.  If English version is the recommended way, then why 'C-h t' loads
>> by default version that corresponds with user language environment,
>> i.e. if I type it I get Polish version?  If
> 
> Arguably, a bug.

Well, I'll wait and see where this thread will go, before I submit
another bug report.

Message #23 received at 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>, 37327 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#37327: Simplifying access to built-in tutorial
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:00:02 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I don't think I like this, not at this time, anyway.  English is still
> the main language for learning to use Emacs; the tutorials in other
> languages are mainly for people who have difficulties in understanding
> English to the degree that it gets in their way of learning Emacs.

I think the conclusion here is that we don't want to change this, so I'm
closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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