GNU bug report logs - #44834
27.1; Tcl mode enforces bad indentation following proc within a namespace

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Morgan Willcock <mwillcock <at> precedence.co.uk>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 27.1; Tcl mode enforces bad indentation following proc within a
 namespace
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 23:58:48 +0000

It seems as though an incorrect indentation level is sometimes detected
by Tcl mode. An easy (and commonly used) example is a proc defined in a
namespace: the third line which defines p2 incorrectly wants to indent
into the wrong position:

namespace eval ns {
    proc p1 {} {}
proc p2 {} {}
}

Spreading braces over more lines has the same issue:

namespace eval ns {
    proc p1 {} {
        # ...
    }
proc p2 {} {
    # ...
}
}

The issues seems very specific to detection of the proc, commenting the
first proc delays the problem:

namespace eval ns {
    # proc p1 {} {}
    proc p2 {} {}
proc p3 {} {}
}

...as does using something other than a proc at the start of the
namespace:

namespace eval ns {
    variable x {}
    proc p1 {} {}
proc p2 {} {}
}

I believe the problem originates from this commit:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/lisp/progmodes/tcl.el?id=cd5bb4bf3dbad8941d25823f398b595b8f0edbb9

To re-create the problem in a new buffer:

1. enter Tcl mode:

M-x tcl-mode

2. paste this text:

namespace eval ns {
    proc p1 {} {}
    proc p2 {} {}
}

3. move point to anywhere on line 3 and press tab



In GNU Emacs 27.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.11, cairo version 1.14.8)
 of 2020-08-12 built on inspiron
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11902000
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 9 (stretch)

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Configured using:
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GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE
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mm-archive gnutls url-http url-gw url-cache url-auth nnrss mm-url
nndraft nnmh utf-7 epa-file network-stream nsm nnfolder nnnil gnus-agent
gnus-srvr gnus-score score-mode nnvirtual gnus-cache gnus-demon nntp
org-agenda gnus-icalendar org-capture org-refile icalendar diary-lib
diary-loaddefs nnir lua-mode compile rx renpy-mode imenu python org-msg
htmlize cl gnus-msg gnus-art mm-uu mml2015 mm-view mml-smime smime dig
gnus-sum url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history
mailcap gnus-group gnus-undo gnus-start gnus-cloud nnimap nnmail
mail-source utf7 netrc nnoo gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range message rmc
dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec epa derived epg epg-config
mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev gmm-utils
mailheader gnus-win erc-spelling flyspell ispell erc-goodies erc
erc-backend erc-compat thingatpt pp erc-loaddefs ob-dot org ob ob-tangle
ob-ref ob-lob ob-table ob-exp org-macro org-footnote org-src ob-comint
org-pcomplete org-list org-faces org-entities noutline outline
easy-mmode org-version ob-emacs-lisp ob-core ob-eval org-table ol
org-keys org-compat advice org-macs org-loaddefs find-func cal-menu
calendar cal-loaddefs savehist icomplete tramp-cache tramp-sh tramp
tramp-loaddefs trampver tramp-integration files-x tramp-compat shell
pcomplete comint ansi-color ring parse-time iso8601 ls-lisp format-spec
recentf tree-widget ibuffer ibuffer-loaddefs hl-line time edmacro kmacro
gnus nnheader gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums
time-date mail-utils mm-util mail-prsvr wid-edit shr
text-property-search url-cookie url-domsuf url-util puny svg xml dom
modus-vivendi-theme info package easymenu browse-url url-handlers
url-parse auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs eieio-loaddefs
password-cache json subr-x map url-vars seq byte-opt gv bytecomp
byte-compile cconv cl-loaddefs cl-lib tooltip eldoc electric uniquify
ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel term/x-win x-win
term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe
tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode
prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch timer
select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core
term/tty-colors frame minibuffer cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang
misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms
cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian
cyrillic chinese composite charscript charprop case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev obarray cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs
button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5
base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable
backquote threads dbusbind inotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty
make-network-process emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 601379 93831)
 (symbols 48 41903 13)
 (strings 32 163981 18423)
 (string-bytes 1 5420629)
 (vectors 16 67450)
 (vector-slots 8 1236339 91558)
 (floats 8 647 1055)
 (intervals 56 5816 2611)
 (buffers 1000 157))

-- 
Morgan Willcock, Support and Development Engineer
Precedence Technologies Ltd              T: +44 (0) 845 6446 800
Technology House, 36a Union Lane         F: +44 (0) 845 6446 899
Cambridge, CB4 1QB, United Kingdom       W: http://www.precedence.co.uk/
Limited company registered in England and Wales. Company number 3725626

Message #8 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: change severity
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 12:21:59 -1000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Just a note that this bug makes the current tcl-mode practically unusable
for anyone writing more than a basic single-file script. I'm not sure
'minor' is the correct severity. Can it be changed to 'normal' and would it
be possible to alert the maintainer, who I imagine must not be aware of the
impact of his commits last year?

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #11 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Patch to provide failing test for bug 44834
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:04:20 -1000

--- emacs/test/lisp/progmodes/tcl-tests.el 2021-01-01 22:11:30.620000000 -1000
+++ emacs.patched/test/lisp/progmodes/tcl-tests.el 2021-01-08
12:51:27.420000000 -1000
@@ -50,14 +50,14 @@
(insert "proc notinthis {} {\n # nothing\n}\n\n")
(should-not (add-log-current-defun))))

-(ert-deftest tcl-mode-function-name ()
+(ert-deftest tcl-mode-function-name-2 ()
(with-temp-buffer
(tcl-mode)
(insert "proc simple {} {\n # nothing\n}")
(backward-char 3)
(should (equal "simple" (add-log-current-defun)))))

-(ert-deftest tcl-mode-function-name ()
+(ert-deftest tcl-mode-function-name-3 ()
(with-temp-buffer
(tcl-mode)
(insert "proc inthis {} {\n # nothing\n")
@@ -71,6 +71,15 @@
(insert text)
(indent-region (point-min) (point-max))
(should (equal (buffer-string) text)))))
+
+;; From bug#44834
+(ert-deftest tcl-mode-namespace-indent-2 ()
+ (with-temp-buffer
+ (tcl-mode)
+ (let ((text "namespace eval Foo {\n proc foo {} {}\n\n proc bar {}{}}\n"))
+ (insert text)
+ (indent-region (point-min) (point-max))
+ (should (equal (buffer-string) text)))))

(provide 'tcl-tests)

Message #14 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Patch to provide failing test for bug 44834
Date: Fri, 8 Jan 2021 15:24:50 -1000

Apologies, the patch was munged by gmail even in plain text mode. It
should not be applied.

Message #17 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Patch to provide failing test for bug 44834
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 13:10:48 +0100

Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Apologies, the patch was munged by gmail even in plain text mode. It
> should not be applied.

Try resending it as an attachment.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #20 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Patch to provide failing test for bug 44834
Date: Sun, 10 Jan 2021 08:41:33 -1000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Trying again with an attachment, thank you for the suggestion.

[patch.txt (text/plain, attachment)]

Message #23 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Patch to provide failing test for bug 44834
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 16:17:18 +0100

Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Trying again with an attachment, thank you for the suggestion.

Thanks; applied to Emacs 28 (but marked the test as failing).

This change was small enough to apply without assigning copyright to the
FSF, but for future patches you want to submit, it might make sense to
get the paperwork started now, so that subsequent patches can be applied
speedily. Would you be willing to sign such paperwork?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #26 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in namespace
Date: Thu, 21 Jan 2021 15:17:41 -1000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

This patch corrects the problem by partially backing out changes
introduced in this commit 2 1/2 years ago:

https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/lisp/progmodes/tcl.el?id=cd5bb4bf3dbad8941d25823f398b595b8f0edbb9

The patch removes the customized tcl-beginning-of-defun-function in
favor of relying on the existing lisp mechanism. It preserves the
customized tcl-end-of-defun-function because that is required for some
test cases.

The expected-failing test was marked as succeeding.

This is a minor change. I did not refer to any code outside of emacs
itself in investigating and correcting this bug. I will not be able to
provide additional paperwork.

[tcl-beginning-of-defun-patch.txt (text/plain, attachment)]

Message #29 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Patch also closes bug#44083
Date: Fri, 22 Jan 2021 09:37:02 -1000

This patch also closes bug#44083.

Message #32 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 05:37:30 +0100

Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com> writes:

> This is a minor change. I did not refer to any code outside of emacs
> itself in investigating and correcting this bug. I will not be able to
> provide additional paperwork.

The change is unfortunately too big to apply without a copyright
assignment to the FSF.  Are you willing to sign such paperwork?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #39 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 11:51:21 -1000

> The change is unfortunately too big to apply without a copyright
> assignment to the FSF.  Are you willing to sign such paperwork?

On further thoughts, I am not willing to complete the paperwork
requested to assign copyright to the FSF. Instead, I waive all
interest in this patch by adopting the CC0 public domain waiver. I
have posted a shortened form of the patch (without the test/ diff) and
waiver to:

  https://gist.github.com/anticrisis/08ca7e7e5a66a4c9d4b445cde7ed75b4

in the hopes that it will be useful to those in the emacs community
who use tcl-mode.

Message #42 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sun, 7 Feb 2021 00:55:54 +0200

On 27.01.2021 06:37, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> The change is unfortunately too big to apply without a copyright
> assignment to the FSF.

Is it really?

There are like 2 new [non-empty] lines in there.

Message #45 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2021 00:47:39 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > The change is unfortunately too big to apply without a copyright
  > > assignment to the FSF.

  > Is it really?

  > There are like 2 new [non-empty] lines in there.

If someone contributes just 2 nontrivial lines, we can treat it as a
trivial change.
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #48 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2021 00:47:53 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I have not looked at the patch or the problem it fixes.
But I can say something about the issue of its copyright.

We can use the program if it is under CC0, but would you
please send the FSF a paper affirming that?

Also, do you have an employer that might claim copyright on it?
-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #51 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Anticrisis <anticrisisg <at> gmail.com>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sat, 6 Feb 2021 21:26:09 -1000

It really is a tiny change, and I explain the rationale in an earlier
comment on this bug report, it would take five minutes for anyone else
to read the explanation and make the same code change. I placed the
CC0 disclaimer using the Creative Commons CC0 tool directly on the
gist at github I posted earlier. I'm afraid any paperwork would
require my real name and signature, which I'm not willing to give. And
I am self-employed. I don't need attribution, I just hope the official
version of tcl-mode can be improved for everyone.

On Sat, Feb 6, 2021 at 7:47 PM Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> I have not looked at the patch or the problem it fixes.
> But I can say something about the issue of its copyright.
>
> We can use the program if it is under CC0, but would you
> please send the FSF a paper affirming that?
>
> Also, do you have an employer that might claim copyright on it?
> --
> Dr Richard Stallman
> Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
> Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
> Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
>
>

Message #54 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2021 12:40:05 +0100

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   > > The change is unfortunately too big to apply without a copyright
>   > > assignment to the FSF.
>
>   > Is it really?
>
>   > There are like 2 new [non-empty] lines in there.
>
> If someone contributes just 2 nontrivial lines, we can treat it as a
> trivial change.

Oh, I thought the rule was "15 lines of non-trivial changes", not "15
lines of non-trivial new code"...  (The patch in question mostly just
removes code.)

Let's see...  From CONTRIBUTE:

----
Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
copyright for your contributions. 
----

So if code removal doesn't count, then perhaps this should be rephrased?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #57 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sun, 07 Feb 2021 22:44:45 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
  > of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
  > copyright for your contributions. 
  > ----

  > So if code removal doesn't count, then perhaps this should be rephrased?

It can surely be improved, to say that lines deleted or totally replaced don't
count.

However, trying to make it a completely clear and precise statement
is a misguided goal.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #60 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Mon, 08 Feb 2021 07:30:48 +0100

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   > Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
>   > of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
>   > copyright for your contributions. 
>   > ----
>
>   > So if code removal doesn't count, then perhaps this should be rephrased?
>
> It can surely be improved, to say that lines deleted or totally replaced don't
> count.
>
> However, trying to make it a completely clear and precise statement
> is a misguided goal.

I've now changed "changes" to "code", and I'll apply the patch.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #67 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 01:07:52 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The text said

  > >   > Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
  > >   > of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
  > >   > copyright for your contributions. 

I think you changed it to

  > >   > Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
  > >   > of non-trivial code, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
  > >   > copyright for your contributions. 

but that is not entirely correct either.  People could misinterpret
what is "trivial."

Please put in

   about 10 new or modified nontrivial lines of code.  (A line with
   a symbol is nontrivial.)




-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #70 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 09:24:53 +0100

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

> but that is not entirely correct either.  People could misinterpret
> what is "trivial."
>
> Please put in
>
>    about 10 new or modified nontrivial lines of code.  (A line with
>    a symbol is nontrivial.)

Eli has changed the text further; please have a look.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #73 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 17:40:50 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Tue, 09 Feb 2021 09:24:53 +0100
> Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > but that is not entirely correct either.  People could misinterpret
> > what is "trivial."
> >
> > Please put in
> >
> >    about 10 new or modified nontrivial lines of code.  (A line with
> >    a symbol is nontrivial.)
> 
> Eli has changed the text further; please have a look.

FTR, the text now says:

  Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
  of non-trivial code you added or changed (not counting deleted lines),
  we will need you to assign to the FSF the copyright for your
  contributions.  Ask on emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will send you the
  necessary form together with the instructions to fill and email it, in
  order to start this legal paperwork.

Message #76 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 00:32:42 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > FTR, the text now says:

  >   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
  >   of non-trivial code you added or changed (not counting deleted lines),
  >   we will need you to assign to the FSF the copyright for your
  >   contributions.  Ask on emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will send you the
  >   necessary form together with the instructions to fill and email it, in
  >   order to start this legal paperwork.

Thanks.  Please make it this:

  >   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10
  >   new or modified nontrivial lines of code, we will need you to
  >   assign to the FSF the copyright for your contributions.  (If a
  >   line contains a symbol, consider it nontrivial.)  Ask on
  >   emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will send you the necessary form
  >   together with the instructions to fill and email it, in order to
  >   start this legal paperwork.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #79 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 17:08:46 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 00:32:42 -0500
> 
>   > FTR, the text now says:
> 
>   >   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 15 lines
>   >   of non-trivial code you added or changed (not counting deleted lines),
>   >   we will need you to assign to the FSF the copyright for your
>   >   contributions.  Ask on emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will send you the
>   >   necessary form together with the instructions to fill and email it, in
>   >   order to start this legal paperwork.
> 
> Thanks.  Please make it this:
> 
>   >   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10
>   >   new or modified nontrivial lines of code, we will need you to
>   >   assign to the FSF the copyright for your contributions.  (If a
>   >   line contains a symbol, consider it nontrivial.)  Ask on
>   >   emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will send you the necessary form
>   >   together with the instructions to fill and email it, in order to
>   >   start this legal paperwork.

Why remove the note about not counting deleted lines?  I agree that in
principle "new or modified" covers that, but how many readers will
immediately understand that "modified" doesn't include "deleted"?  I
put that there to make it clear; is there a reason not to say that
explicitly?

Message #82 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 16:24:05 +0100

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   >   assign to the FSF the copyright for your contributions.  (If a
>   >   line contains a symbol, consider it nontrivial.)  Ask on

I don't quite understand what you mean by "if a line contains a symbol".
Do you mean that strings or comments don't count?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #85 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Matt Armstrong <matt <at> rfc20.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Wed, 10 Feb 2021 08:03:35 -0800

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>>   >   assign to the FSF the copyright for your contributions.  (If a
>>   >   line contains a symbol, consider it nontrivial.)  Ask on
>
> I don't quite understand what you mean by "if a line contains a symbol".
> Do you mean that strings or comments don't count?

Yes, "non-blank lines added/changed" seems preferable, simply because it
is clear and unambiguous.

 - I think Richard may have implied that a line with a symbol is a
   sufficient condition for nontriviality, but it isn't clear if
   intended it to be a necessary condition. I suspect he meant
   "sufficient", but I think many people would interpret it as a
   "necessary" condition.

 - The meaning of "symbol" is not immediately clear in non-lisp code
   such as C, makefiles, scripts, etc.

 - If a commit completely rewrites a long comment or doc string, should
   it be considered "trivial" for the purposes of copyright?

Message #88 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:39:12 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Why remove the note about not counting deleted lines?

Because it is logically not necessary.

  >   I agree that in
  > principle "new or modified" covers that, but how many readers will
  > immediately understand that "modified" doesn't include "deleted"?

The idea is to count lines in the new version which are added or
modified.  If that is clear, you will see that it doesn't count
anything from the old versin.

If that is not clear, we do need to clarify it.  But real
clarification calls for more than "deleted lines don't count".  It's,
"Don't count _anything_ from the old code; count only the added and
modified lines in the _patched_ code."

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #91 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, eliz <at> gnu.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:39:24 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I don't quite understand what you mean by "if a line contains a symbol".
  > Do you mean that strings or comments don't count?

No.  I meant to say that even one symbol on a line maks it nontrivial.
But you're right that strings and comments count.  So do numbers.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #94 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 15:00:50 +0100

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   > Why remove the note about not counting deleted lines?
>
> Because it is logically not necessary.

Preferably, instructions like this shouldn't be brain teasers, but state
(even redundantly) what the terms are.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #97 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:39:46 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:39:12 -0500
> 
>   >   I agree that in
>   > principle "new or modified" covers that, but how many readers will
>   > immediately understand that "modified" doesn't include "deleted"?
> 
> The idea is to count lines in the new version which are added or
> modified.  If that is clear, you will see that it doesn't count
> anything from the old versin.

The problem is that most modern comparison tools show diffs where
there are no "changed" lines (the "!" mark of "diff -c"), they only
show "-" and "+", i.e. as if the edit distance is a sequence of just 2
operations: delete and add.  So "changed" doesn't have a clear and
immediate interpretation in terms of the presentation in diffs.

> If that is not clear, we do need to clarify it.  But real
> clarification calls for more than "deleted lines don't count".  It's,
> "Don't count _anything_ from the old code; count only the added and
> modified lines in the _patched_ code."

That's clear enough.  How about this text:

  Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
  of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
  copyright for your contributions.  (To see how many lines were
  non-trivially changed, count only added and modified lines in the
  patched code.  An added or changed line is non-trivial if it includes
  at least one identifier.)  Ask on emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will
  send you the necessary form together with the instructions to fill and
  email it, in order to start this legal paperwork.

Message #100 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:41:23 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 08:39:24 -0500
> 
>   > I don't quite understand what you mean by "if a line contains a symbol".
>   > Do you mean that strings or comments don't count?
> 
> No.  I meant to say that even one symbol on a line maks it nontrivial.
> But you're right that strings and comments count.  So do numbers.

Empty lines are clearly trivial, but what other examples of trivial
lines exist?  Should we say "non-empty lines"?

Message #103 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2021 16:49:38 +0200

On 11.02.2021 16:41, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> Empty lines are clearly trivial, but what other examples of trivial
> lines exist?  Should we say "non-empty lines"?

I think we should also usually discount the cases of moving code around.

If a line was removed in one place and an exact same line added in 
another, it's not really new code.

Message #106 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:46 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Empty lines are clearly trivial, but what other examples of trivial
  > lines exist?  Should we say "non-empty lines"?

A line with just braces, or parentheses, or just a few operators,
can be taken as trivial.

There is no precise rule here.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #109 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:49 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > The idea is to count lines in the new version which are added or
  > > modified.  If that is clear, you will see that it doesn't count
  > > anything from the old versin.

  > The problem is that most modern comparison tools show diffs where
  > there are no "changed" lines (the "!" mark of "diff -c"), they only
  > show "-" and "+", i.e. as if the edit distance is a sequence of just 2
  > operations: delete and add.

That seems inconvenient, in general.  Why do they do that?

But it doesn't matter at all for this one purpose.

                                 So "changed" doesn't have a clear and
  > immediate interpretation in terms of the presentation in diffs.

When you're counting the added or changed lines, it should not matter
whether the tool distinguishs added lines from changed lines.
If it labels them all with +, you can still count them.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #112 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:54 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    > Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
    > of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
    > copyright for your contributions.  (To see how many lines were
    > non-trivially changed, count only added and modified lines in the
    > patched code.  An added or changed line is non-trivial if it includes
    > at least one identifier.)  Ask on emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will
    > send you the necessary form together with the instructions to fill and
    > email it, in order to start this legal paperwork.

Please change it to this.  (I am taking account of someone else's
feedback.)

    > Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
    > of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
    > copyright for your contributions.  (To see how many lines were
    > non-trivially changed, count only added and modified lines in the
    > patched code.  Consider an added or changed line to be non-trivial
    > if it includes at least one identifier, string, or substantial comment.)
    > Ask on emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will
    > send you the necessary form together with the instructions to fill and
    > email it, in order to start this legal paperwork.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #115 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 09:26:12 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 	dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 00:48:54 -0500
> 
> Please change it to this.  (I am taking account of someone else's
> feedback.)
> 
>     > Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
>     > of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
>     > copyright for your contributions.  (To see how many lines were
>     > non-trivially changed, count only added and modified lines in the
>     > patched code.  Consider an added or changed line to be non-trivial
>     > if it includes at least one identifier, string, or substantial comment.)
>     > Ask on emacs-devel <at> gnu.org, and we will
>     > send you the necessary form together with the instructions to fill and
>     > email it, in order to start this legal paperwork.

Thanks, installed.

Message #118 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 09:14:33 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
>   of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the

But it used to be 15 lines?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #121 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 13:16:47 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: rms <at> gnu.org,  anticrisisg <at> gmail.com,  44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>   dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 09:14:33 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
> >   of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
> 
> But it used to be 15 lines?

Richard asked to change it to 10.

AFAIU, what CONTRIBUTE says is just a conservative threshold, above
which human judgment is required.  After all, how much of creative
value is there in any given code is not something one can estimate by
just counting lines.

Message #124 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, eliz <at> gnu.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 22:26:50 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
  > >   of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the

  > But it used to be 15 lines?

If people were counting both old and new code in the patch, and now they
are counting just new code, the total should be smaller.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #127 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 12:37:43 +0100

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   > >   Once the cumulative amount of your submissions exceeds about 10 lines
>   > >   of non-trivial changes, we will need you to assign to the FSF the
>
>   > But it used to be 15 lines?
>
> If people were counting both old and new code in the patch, and now they
> are counting just new code, the total should be smaller.

I was counting that way, but it doesn't sound like Eli was (and I don't
know whether anybody else was).  So if that's the reason for lowering
the number of lines, it should be changed back to 15 again.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #130 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: rms <at> gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2021 14:25:56 +0200

On 13.02.2021 05:26, Richard Stallman wrote:
> If people were counting both old and new code in the patch

I didn't.

Message #133 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 00:19:41 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > If people were counting both old and new code in the patch

  > I didn't.

It's not about you or one specific case.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #136 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:05:03 +0200

On 16.02.2021 07:19, Richard Stallman wrote:
>    > > If people were counting both old and new code in the patch
> 
>    > I didn't.
> 
> It's not about you or one specific case.

I have been accepting patches from users for years, both into Emacs 
proper and into several GNU ELPA packages.

Message #139 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 13:06:43 +0100

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> writes:

> On 16.02.2021 07:19, Richard Stallman wrote:
>>    > > If people were counting both old and new code in the patch
>>    > I didn't.
>> It's not about you or one specific case.
>
> I have been accepting patches from users for years, both into Emacs
> proper and into several GNU ELPA packages.

So I think the text should go back to "15" unless Richard has a better
explanation for the change.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #142 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:38:33 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 13:06:43 +0100
> Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
> 
> So I think the text should go back to "15" unless Richard has a better
> explanation for the change.

Would it be good enough to say "about 10" instead?  The exact number
is impossible to define, and arguing about it is waste of time and
energy.  When in doubt (and we rarely are), we can always ask (and
actually do ask).

Message #145 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 17:29:17 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Would it be good enough to say "about 10" instead?  The exact number
> is impossible to define, and arguing about it is waste of time and
> energy.

Sure, that's fine.  Or "about 15".  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #148 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, dgutov <at> yandex.ru,
 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 19:15:20 +0200

>> So I think the text should go back to "15" unless Richard has a better
>> explanation for the change.
>
> Would it be good enough to say "about 10" instead?  The exact number
> is impossible to define, and arguing about it is waste of time and
> energy.  When in doubt (and we rarely are), we can always ask (and
> actually do ask).

Or for a number between 10 and 15 - "a dozen".

Message #151 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru,
 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 20:53:31 +0200

> From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,  anticrisisg <at> gmail.com,
>   44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  rms <at> gnu.org,  dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 19:15:20 +0200
> 
> Or for a number between 10 and 15 - "a dozen".

Yes, "a dozen" would also be good, IMO.

Message #154 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 2021 23:12:15 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >> It's not about you or one specific case.
  > >
  > > I have been accepting patches from users for years, both into Emacs
  > > proper and into several GNU ELPA packages.

  > So I think the text should go back to "15" unless Richard has a better
  > explanation for the change.

I can't follow your reasoning.  Why is Dmitri's own interpretation
of the old wording have to do with this question?

It's possible I am mistaken about how people generally interpreted
the previous criterion, but one person's interpretation doesn't show that.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #157 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, eliz <at> gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org,
 dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 01:12:46 -0500

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Or for a number between 10 and 15 - "a dozen".

"a dozen or so" could be good.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #160 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, larsi <at> gnus.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru,
 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, juri <at> linkov.net
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 16:08:25 +0200

> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org, anticrisisg <at> gmail.com,
> 	44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
> Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 01:12:46 -0500
> 
>   > Or for a number between 10 and 15 - "a dozen".
> 
> "a dozen or so" could be good.

Thanks, I made that change.

Message #163 received at 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: anticrisisg <at> gmail.com, 44834 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44834: Fix for failing indentation of Tcl procs nested in
 namespace
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 2021 16:15:07 +0200

On 16.02.2021 17:38, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> When in doubt (and we rarely are)

I believe this will happen more often now.

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