GNU bug report logs - #4980
23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify

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Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
To: emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org
Subject: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 18:05:27 -0500

When I try to quit Emacs by clicking File > Quit, I see seven choices:

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

Save file foo.txt?

*  Yes
*  No
*  View This Buffer
*  View Changes In This Buffer
*  Save This But No More
*  Save All Buffers
*  No For All

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

1.  As dak wrote in 2008 at
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/65537/focus=100634 there's
no Cancel button.  "Closing the dialog window happens to achieve that
... but it is not really obvious."  Please add a Cancel button.

2.  For the first choice, instead of writing "Yes", write "Save".
Usability researchers have found that action verbs are always better
when a list of choices is provided.  I can explain why if you require
it.

3.  The seven choices act as a confusing way to ask me which files to
save.  Instead, as Joshua Juran <jjuran <at> gmail.com> suggested to me in
Freenode #macdev, you should use a dialog box like "gedit" uses (
screenshot at http://omploader.org/vMnQzaw ; download gedit for
Windows / Mac at http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/ ):

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((

[!] There are 2 document(s) with unsaved changes.
Save before closing?

Select the documents you want to save:
| [x] foo.txt    |
| [x] bar.txt    |
|                |
|                |

If you don't save, your changes will be lost.
                                                 ________     ______
[ Close &without Saving ] [       &Cancel     ] [________&Save______]

)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Don't offer view-buffer or view-changes choices in a GUI.  You see, a
GUI should be simple instead of listing every possible choice the user
might conceivably want.  If the user wants to do so, they can click
Cancel then do so themselves.

Message #10 received at 4980 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write 
	"Save", and simplify
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 00:38:16 +0100

On Fri, Nov 20, 2009 at 12:05 AM, Jason A. Spiro <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> When I try to quit Emacs by clicking File > Quit, I see seven choices:
>
> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
>
> Save file foo.txt?
>
> *  Yes
> *  No
> *  View This Buffer
> *  View Changes In This Buffer
> *  Save This But No More
> *  Save All Buffers
> *  No For All
>
> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
>
> 1.  As dak wrote in 2008 at
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/65537/focus=100634 there's
> no Cancel button.  "Closing the dialog window happens to achieve that
> ... but it is not really obvious."  Please add a Cancel button.


Aggeed.


> 2.  For the first choice, instead of writing "Yes", write "Save".
> Usability researchers have found that action verbs are always better
> when a list of choices is provided.  I can explain why if you require
> it.


Agreed. There is no reason for yes/no here. Use verbs to make it clear.


> 3.  The seven choices act as a confusing way to ask me which files to
> save.  Instead, as Joshua Juran <jjuran <at> gmail.com> suggested to me in
> Freenode #macdev, you should use a dialog box like "gedit" uses (
> screenshot at http://omploader.org/vMnQzaw ; download gedit for
> Windows / Mac at http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/ ):

> (((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
>
> [!] There are 2 document(s) with unsaved changes.
> Save before closing?
>
> Select the documents you want to save:
> | [x] foo.txt    |
> | [x] bar.txt    |
> |                |
> |                |
>
> If you don't save, your changes will be lost.
>                                                 ________     ______
> [ Close &without Saving ] [       &Cancel     ] [________&Save______]
>
> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))


Yes, a dialog box is better. But it should be cross platform. No one
has yet tried to write this for w32. (I do not know for other
platforms.)


> Don't offer view-buffer or view-changes choices in a GUI.  You see, a
> GUI should be simple instead of listing every possible choice the user
> might conceivably want.  If the user wants to do so, they can click
> Cancel then do so themselves.


Not sure. This is for experienced users also. Fast ways are useful,
but maybe not when using dialog boxes.

Message #15 received at 4980 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jason Rumney <jasonr <at> f2s.com>
To: Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>,
        4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50;	In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write  "Save",
 and simplify
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:59:41 +0800

Lennart Borgman wrote:
> Not sure. This is for experienced users also. Fast ways are useful,
> but maybe not when using dialog boxes.
>   

Personally I only see a need for a dialog with 3 buttons. "Close without 
saving" "Save All" and "Cancel"

Anything more complicated and the user can Cancel, resolve the situation 
and attempt to exit again.

Message #20 received at 4980 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Jason Rumney <jasonr <at> f2s.com>
Cc: 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
        Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>,
        "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write  "Save", and simplify
Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2009 23:31:18 -0500

> Personally I only see a need for a dialog with 3 buttons. "Close without
> saving" "Save All" and "Cancel"

Agreed.


        Stefan

Message #25 received at 4980 <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> jurta.org>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 11:31:42 +0200

> 1.  As dak wrote in 2008 at
> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel/65537/focus=100634 there's
> no Cancel button.  "Closing the dialog window happens to achieve that
> ... but it is not really obvious."  Please add a Cancel button.
>
> 2.  For the first choice, instead of writing "Yes", write "Save".
> Usability researchers have found that action verbs are always better
> when a list of choices is provided.  I can explain why if you require
> it.
>
> 3.  The seven choices act as a confusing way to ask me which files to
> save.  Instead, as Joshua Juran <jjuran <at> gmail.com> suggested to me in
> Freenode #macdev, you should use a dialog box like "gedit" uses (
> screenshot at http://omploader.org/vMnQzaw ; download gedit for
> Windows / Mac at http://projects.gnome.org/gedit/ ):

The graphical version of the closing dialog window is modelled
after the corresponding minibuffer prompts.

So if we are going to change "Yes/No" to "Quit without saving",
"Save All" and "Cancel" (I wholeheartedly welcome this change
since a "Yes/No" question is dangerous to lose unsaved changes),
then we have to modify the minibuffer prompts too.

Maybe in the non-graphical version we should display a list of unsaved
buffers (in a fashion like the *Buffer List* for `C-x C-b') like
we display the process list when quitting with running processes.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Message #30 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: Jan Djärv <jan.h.d <at> swipnet.se>
To: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Cc: emacs-pretest-bug <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50;	In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save",
 and simplify
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2009 10:55:27 +0100

Jason A. Spiro skrev:

> 
> [!] There are 2 document(s) with unsaved changes.
> Save before closing?
> 
> Select the documents you want to save:
> | [x] foo.txt    |
> | [x] bar.txt    |
> |                |
> |                |
> 
> If you don't save, your changes will be lost.
>                                                  ________     ______
> [ Close &without Saving ] [       &Cancel     ] [________&Save______]
> 
> )))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
> 
> Don't offer view-buffer or view-changes choices in a GUI.  You see, a
> GUI should be simple instead of listing every possible choice the user
> might conceivably want.  If the user wants to do so, they can click
> Cancel then do so themselves.
> 

It is a good idea.  However, the dialog functions in Emacs can't currently do 
this in a generic way (that is from elisp).

Close is not a good word.  You close a dialog and a frame, but you quit or 
exit the application.

So IMHO "Close without Saving" should be "Exit without Saving" and "Save" 
should be "Save and Exit" or prehaps "Save marked and Exit" (if indeed that is 
what Save does, it isn't clear).

	Jan D.

Message #40 received at 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Jason Rumney <jasonr <at> f2s.com>
Cc: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write
 "Save", and simplify
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:55:10 +0100

Jason Rumney <jasonr <at> f2s.com> writes:

>> Not sure. This is for experienced users also. Fast ways are useful,
>> but maybe not when using dialog boxes.
>>   
>
> Personally I only see a need for a dialog with 3 buttons. "Close
> without saving" "Save All" and "Cancel"
>
> Anything more complicated and the user can Cancel, resolve the
> situation and attempt to exit again.

(I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
at the time.)

Good idea.  Now done in Emacs 29.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #45 received at 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com,
 jasonr <at> f2s.com
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50;
 In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:56:30 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 19:55:10 +0100
> Cc: "Jason A. Spiro" <jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com>, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>  Lennart Borgman <lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com>
> 
> Jason Rumney <jasonr <at> f2s.com> writes:
> 
> >> Not sure. This is for experienced users also. Fast ways are useful,
> >> but maybe not when using dialog boxes.
> >>   
> >
> > Personally I only see a need for a dialog with 3 buttons. "Close
> > without saving" "Save All" and "Cancel"
> >
> > Anything more complicated and the user can Cancel, resolve the
> > situation and attempt to exit again.
> 
> (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
> at the time.)
> 
> Good idea.  Now done in Emacs 29.

This now pops the dialog when you click File->Quit immediately after
entering "emacs -Q".  But there's no buffer that needs saving at that
point.

Message #48 received at 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: larsi <at> gnus.org
Cc: jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com,
 jasonr <at> f2s.com
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50;
 In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write "Save", and simplify
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:07:46 +0200

> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 21:56:30 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com,
>  jasonr <at> f2s.com
> 
> > > Personally I only see a need for a dialog with 3 buttons. "Close
> > > without saving" "Save All" and "Cancel"
> > >
> > > Anything more complicated and the user can Cancel, resolve the
> > > situation and attempt to exit again.
> > 
> > (I'm going through old bug reports that unfortunately weren't resolved
> > at the time.)
> > 
> > Good idea.  Now done in Emacs 29.
> 
> This now pops the dialog when you click File->Quit immediately after
> entering "emacs -Q".  But there's no buffer that needs saving at that
> point.

Also, if you try this:

  emacs -Q
  C-x C-f /some/non-existent/file RET

then insert some text and click File->Quit, then selecting "Close
without saving" will still pop up an additional dialog asking whether
to exit although modified buffers exist.  But "Close without saving"
was supposed to have already answered that question.

Message #51 received at 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com,
 jasonr <at> f2s.com
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write
 "Save", and simplify
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:27:28 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> This now pops the dialog when you click File->Quit immediately after
> entering "emacs -Q".  But there's no buffer that needs saving at that
> point.

Now fixed.

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Also, if you try this:
>
>   emacs -Q
>   C-x C-f /some/non-existent/file RET
>
> then insert some text and click File->Quit, then selecting "Close
> without saving" will still pop up an additional dialog asking whether
> to exit although modified buffers exist.  But "Close without saving"
> was supposed to have already answered that question.

I didn't change that logic -- you had to answer "no" twice before, and
you still have to.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #54 received at 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com,
 jasonr <at> f2s.com
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write
 "Save", and simplify
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 09:06:54 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: jasonr <at> f2s.com,  jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com,  4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>   lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2022 22:27:28 +0100
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > This now pops the dialog when you click File->Quit immediately after
> > entering "emacs -Q".  But there's no buffer that needs saving at that
> > point.
> 
> Now fixed.

Thanks.

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Also, if you try this:
> >
> >   emacs -Q
> >   C-x C-f /some/non-existent/file RET
> >
> > then insert some text and click File->Quit, then selecting "Close
> > without saving" will still pop up an additional dialog asking whether
> > to exit although modified buffers exist.  But "Close without saving"
> > was supposed to have already answered that question.
> 
> I didn't change that logic -- you had to answer "no" twice before, and
> you still have to.

But save-some-buffers doesn't ask the same question: it asks about
specific buffers, one by one.  And popping 2 dialogs with basically
the same question looks ... worse.

Message #57 received at 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: jasonspiro4 <at> gmail.com, 4980 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, lennart.borgman <at> gmail.com,
 jasonr <at> f2s.com
Subject: Re: bug#4980: 23.1.50; In File > Quit GUI, add "Cancel", write
 "Save", and simplify
Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2022 14:52:03 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> But save-some-buffers doesn't ask the same question: it asks about
> specific buffers, one by one.  And popping 2 dialogs with basically
> the same question looks ... worse.

Yes, previously it was "Save file <...>" and "No for all", and then
"... exit anyway?".  Since the first prompt is now "Close without
saving" it feels a bit more nagging?

But I think it still makes sense to ask twice, since it's pretty...
drastic?  So I dunno.  I don't have any strong opinion here -- what do
others feel?  Should we keep the double prompt even though the first
prompt is now less cryptic?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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