GNU bug report logs - #11948
24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not just space and tab

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Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>; dated Mon, 16 Jul 2012 12:49:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Severity set to 'wishlist' from 'normal' Request was from npostavs@HIDDEN to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters,
	not	just space and tab
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>> While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
>> practical and simplified version of collation, see
>> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
>> in emacs, I'd be all ears.
> We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
> 'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
> we?

We'd need to select a utf-8 locale before doing that, right?


        Stefan




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bug#11948; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters,
	not	just space and tab
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> Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2012 13:02:10 +0200
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> CC: rrt@HIDDEN, 11948 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  > We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
>  > 'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
>  > we?
> 
> That would be awesome.  Can you try doing that?

I can try, but would you please file a separate bug report for this?




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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking
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 > We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
 > 'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
 > we?

That would be awesome.  Can you try doing that?

martin




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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters,
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> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 11:49:56 +0200
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> CC: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>, 11948 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
> practical and simplified version of collation, see
> 
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
> 
> in emacs, I'd be all ears.

We could provide a function suitable to be a PREDICATE argument for
'sort', which would call 'strcoll' in the underlying C library, can't
we?




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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
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 >> Sadly, `sort-lines' and `dired' don't support it all.  I can't use
 >> `dired' because it doesn't.
 >
 > I suggest to file a separate bug report, and please explain there why
 > you cannot run Dired because of this, because I don't see the
 > relation.

I didn't say that I cannot "run" it.  I said that I cannot "use" it.
And I can't use it because ls/dired and I have different understandings
of what "alphabetically" means.

martin




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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not
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> Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:13:20 +0200
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 11948 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, 
>  Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
> 
>  > How does operating systems support this?
> 
> I suppose most of them support it in some locale dependent manner.
> Sadly, `sort-lines' and `dired' don't support it all.  I can't use
> `dired' because it doesn't.

I suggest to file a separate bug report, and please explain there why
you cannot run Dired because of this, because I don't see the
relation.




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	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking
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 > How does operating systems support this?

I suppose most of them support it in some locale dependent manner.
Sadly, `sort-lines' and `dired' don't support it all.  I can't use
`dired' because it doesn't.

martin




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On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:49 AM, martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
> practical and simplified version of collation, see
>
> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/
>
> in emacs, I'd be all ears.

How does operating systems support this?




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 >> The Unicode line breaking algorithm is probably the place to go:
 >>
 >> http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/
 >
 > Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
 > an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
 > implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
 > problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
 > specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.  By
 > contrast, the Emacs display engine, which implements word-wrap,
 > examines and processes characters one by one.  So one needs to
 > "serialize", so to speak, the UAX#14 algorithms so that its decisions
 > could be made on a character-by-character basis.
 >
 > I think just supporting more characters from LineBreak.txt on which to
 > wrap should be a good start, and much easier than implementing UAX#14.
 > Even for that, we will need an efficient char-table for the related
 > properties, probably via the uniprop_table machinery, like what bidi.c
 > uses.  Otherwise, referencing the ordinary char-tables of character
 > properties for each character we display could slow down redisplay too
 > much.

While you're all there: If anybody has any idea how to support a
practical and simplified version of collation, see

http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr10/

in emacs, I'd be all ears.

martin




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	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not
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> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:48:52 +0100
> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 11948 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On 16 July 2012 20:47, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
> > an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
> > implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
> > problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
> > specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.
> 
> I wasn't suggesting you should implement the algorithm; I just assumed
> it would contain a list of breaking space characters. You seem to have
> found such a thing anyway!

Yes, with your help: the file was mentioned in UAX#14.

Thanks.




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On 16 July 2012 22:16, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
>>> I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
>>> whether we want to show the file's content to the user.
>> Isn't whitespace-mode for showing the content, as far as spaces
>> are concerned?
>
> whitespace mode is good at showing where you have things like
> trailing-spaces, but other than anal retentive guys like us,
> nobody cares.

whitespace-mode is quite a bit more general than that: it allows one
to visualise various space characters, every time they appear. It
could presumably be extended to visualise more unicode space
characters.

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org




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bug#11948; Package emacs. Full text available.

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To: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not
	just space and tab
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>> I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
>> whether we want to show the file's content to the user.
> Isn't whitespace-mode for showing the content, as far as spaces
> are concerned?

whitespace mode is good at showing where you have things like
trailing-spaces, but other than anal retentive guys like us,
nobody cares.  OTOH many people (myself included) have wasted hours
tracking bugs where some chunk of code contained some weird char like
a NBSP that displayed exactly like a normal space but isn't parsed the
same way.

For similar reasons, we don't treat ~ in TeX as whitespace: while its
rendering will display as whitespace its meaning in the source code is
non-trivial.

I'm aware that neither ~ in TeX nor NBSP are quite the same as the
problem at hand, but there is still the same general issue of
distinguishing the specification from its rendering and when editing
a file in Emacs you often what to see what the file specifies more than
what it will render to (which you'll want to see maybe elsewhere such
as in a browser).


        Stefan




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all
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On 16 July 2012 21:37, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
> whether we want to show the file's content to the user.

Isn't whitespace-mode for showing the content, as far as spaces are concerned?

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org




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bug#11948; Package emacs. Full text available.

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To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters,
	not	just space and tab
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>> I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
>> space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
>> characters.
> A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
> characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
> the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
> decide on our own.

I think the issue here is whether we want to "render" the text, or
whether we want to show the file's content to the user.

For text-rendering, any space-like thingy that Unicode says isn't
unbreakable would probably be fine, but for the other case, it can
be important for the user to see the difference between a normal space
and some other space and wrapping the line can hide the difference.

Maybe we can rely on a variable such as nobreak-char-display (where
there's a similar issue).


        Stefan




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all
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On 16 July 2012 20:47, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
> an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
> implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
> problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
> specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.

I wasn't suggesting you should implement the algorithm; I just assumed
it would contain a list of breaking space characters. You seem to have
found such a thing anyway!

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org




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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not
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> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:21:00 +0100
> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 11948 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On 16 July 2012 17:05, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> >
> > A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
> > characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
> > the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
> > decide on our own.
> 
> The Unicode line breaking algorithm is probably the place to go:
> 
> http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/

Thanks, but that's not what I meant.  Implementing UAX#14 in full is
an effort similar (although smaller) to what was required for
implementing UAX#9, the Unicode Bidirectional Algorithm.  The main
problem is that, like with UAX#9, the algorithms in UAX#14 are
specified assuming that text is processed for display in batches.  By
contrast, the Emacs display engine, which implements word-wrap,
examines and processes characters one by one.  So one needs to
"serialize", so to speak, the UAX#14 algorithms so that its decisions
could be made on a character-by-character basis.

I think just supporting more characters from LineBreak.txt on which to
wrap should be a good start, and much easier than implementing UAX#14.
Even for that, we will need an efficient char-table for the related
properties, probably via the uniprop_table machinery, like what bidi.c
uses.  Otherwise, referencing the ordinary char-tables of character
properties for each character we display could slow down redisplay too
much.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#11948; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 11948 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50; word-wrap should allow wrapping at all
	breaking space characters, not just space and tab
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On 16 July 2012 17:05, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
>
> A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
> characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
> the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
> decide on our own.

The Unicode line breaking algorithm is probably the place to go:

http://unicode.org/reports/tr14/

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#11948; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 11948 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 19:05:49 +0300
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#11948: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters,
	not	just space and tab
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> From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:42:18 +0100
> 
> I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
> space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
> characters.

A prerequisite for doing something about this is to decide which
characters should allow breaking the line.  Is there some guidance in
the Unicode standard or elsewhere about this?  If not, we will have to
decide on our own.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#11948; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 24.1.50;
	word-wrap should allow wrapping at all breaking space characters, not
	just space and tab
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:42:18 +0100
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I noticed this when in visual-line-mode, and it failed to wrap at an em
space (U+2003), but of course there are lotsof other breaking space
characters.


In GNU Emacs 24.1.50.2 (x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.24.10)
 of 2012-07-14 on skwd
Bzr revision: 109087 cyd@HIDDEN
Windowing system distributor `The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11103000
Important settings:
  value of $LC_MONETARY: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LC_TIME: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Help

Minor modes in effect:
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  diff-auto-refine-mode: t
  recentf-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  server-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  minibuffer-electric-default-mode: t
  iswitchb-mode: t
  icomplete-mode: t
  global-auto-revert-mode: t
  desktop-save-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
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  file-name-shadow-mode: t
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  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  column-number-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent input:
<right> C-y C-d C-d C-d C-d C-d C-d C-d C-d C-d C-d 
C-d C-d <left> <left> <left> <left> <left> <left> <left> 
<left> <left> <left> <left> <left> <left> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <help-echo> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <right> 
<right> <right> <right> <right> <right> <left> <left> 
<left> <left> <left> <left> <down-mouse-3> <help-echo> 
C-g C-g C-h k C-c l C-n C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f 
C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f 
C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f <return> 
C-x 1 C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n 
C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n M-x 
c u s o t m i z e - <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> 
<backspace> <backspace> <backspace> <backspace> t o 
m i z e - g g r <backspace> <backspace> r o u p <return> 
v i s u <tab> <return> <help-echo> <help-echo> <help-echo> 
<down-mouse-1> <help-echo> <mouse-movement> <mouse-1> 
<help-echo> <down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <help-echo> <help-echo> 
<down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <help-echo> <help-echo> C-h 
f v i s u a l - l i n e - m o d e <return> C-n C-n 
C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f 
C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f 
C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f 
C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f C-f <return> <help-echo> <help-echo> 
<down-mouse-1> <mouse-1> <help-echo> <help-echo> <down-mouse-1> 
<mouse-1> M-x r e p o r t - b <backspace> e m a c s 
- b u g <return>

Recent messages:
Type "q" to restore previous buffer.
uncompressing simple.el.gz...done
Note: file is write protected
Creating customization items...
Creating group...
Creating group entries...done
Creating customization items ...done
Resetting customization items...done
Creating customization setup...done
Type "q" to restore previous buffer. [2 times]

Load-path shadows:
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/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/toolbar-x hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/toolbar-x
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/tex-buf hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/tex-buf
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fptex hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fptex
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/bib-cite hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/bib-cite
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/context-en hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/context-en
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fold hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/tex-fold
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/tex-bar hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/tex-bar
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/context hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/context
/usr/local/share/emacs/24.1.50/site-lisp/auctex/font-latex hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/auctex/font-latex

Features:
(shadow sort gnus-util mail-extr emacsbug message format-spec rfc822 mml
mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 mailabbrev
gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util
mail-prsvr mail-utils cus-edit find-func vc ediff-merg ediff-diff
ediff-wind ediff-help ediff-util ediff-mult ediff-init ediff
vc-dispatcher todoo shell pcomplete grep multi-isearch help-mode
jka-compr info etags nxml-uchnm rng-xsd xsd-regexp rng-cmpct image-mode
rng-nxml rng-valid rng-loc rng-uri rng-parse nxml-parse rng-match rng-dt
rng-util rng-pttrn nxml-ns nxml-mode nxml-outln nxml-rap nxml-util
nxml-glyph nxml-enc xmltok sgml-mode js byte-opt bytecomp byte-compile
cconv json imenu thingatpt inform-mode cc-langs cc-mode cc-fonts
cc-guess cc-menus cc-cmds cc-styles cc-align cc-engine cc-vars cc-defs
autoconf autoconf-mode make-mode noutline outline lua-mode diff-git
diff-mode cperl-mode flymake compile comint ansi-color ring vc-git
face-remap flyspell smart-quotes auto-dictionary-autoloads
c-eldoc-autoloads dictionary-autoloads diff-git-autoloads
dired-isearch-autoloads full-ack-autoloads guess-style-autoloads
kill-ring-search-autoloads magit-autoloads mv-shell-autoloads
tumble-autoloads http-post-simple-autoloads package completing-help
recentf tree-widget wid-edit uniquify paren server savehist
minibuf-eldef iswitchb icomplete autorevert desktop cus-start cus-load
ropemacs pymacs go-mode-load ispell advice advice-preload yasnippet
help-fns derived edmacro kmacro cl-macs gv easymenu assoc cl cl-lib
macroexp muse-autoloads emacs-goodies-el emacs-goodies-custom
emacs-goodies-loaddefs easy-mmode preview-latex tex-site auto-loads
user-site-loaddefs time-date tooltip ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type
mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe
tabulated-list newcomment lisp-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow
timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu
font-core frame cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan
thai tai-viet lao korean japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev minibuffer loaddefs button faces
cus-face files text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env
code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote
make-network-process dbusbind dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)

-- 
http://rrt.sc3d.org/




Acknowledgement sent to Reuben Thomas <rrt@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#11948; Package emacs. Full text available.
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Last modified: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:00:02 UTC

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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.