GNU bug report logs - #12443
24.2.50; Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)

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Package: emacs; Severity: minor; Reported by: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>; dated Fri, 14 Sep 2012 14:08:01 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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From: Juri Linkov <juri@HIDDEN>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
Organization: JURTA
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	(Dani Moncayo's message of "Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:42:47 +0200")
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>> It's a matter of taste (some people prefer the "(default ...)").
>
> maybe, but other people (Drew, you, me and I guess many others) prefer
> other behavior.
>
> Therefore, it seems that this should be user-configurable.

(defcustom minibuffer-default-prompt-format " (default %s)"
 "Default format."
 :type 'string)

Example of usage:

(let ((default "def"))
  (read-from-minibuffer
   (format "Set bookmark%s: "
           (format minibuffer-default-prompt-format default))))

Other possible values:

(setq minibuffer-default-prompt-format " [%s]")
(setq minibuffer-default-prompt-format "")




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#12443; Package emacs. Full text available.

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	<87a9wsmiqw.fsf@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2012 13:55:07 -0700
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> >> It's a matter of taste (some people prefer the "(default ...)").
> >
> > maybe, but other people (Drew, you, me and I guess many 
> > others) prefer other behavior.
> >
> > Therefore, it seems that this should be user-configurable.
> 
> A new/first-time user will need a hint.
> 
> An experienced user or a user with some experience - one who 
> knows what to expect, where and when - will find it a clutter.

So make the default value do what we do now, if you really think such a hint is
important for newbies.  But give users the choice.

FWIW, I do not think that newbies need such a hint, anymore than they might need
hints about hitting TAB for completion or a host of other things one could
imagine are as new to them as `M-n'.  But I am not adamantly against providing
such hints by default.





Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#12443; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@HIDDEN>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
References: <CAH8Pv0jv4PE3GbzoS1cb9x+wcORutLoEvogytNKa=tT4PS-BPA@HIDDEN>
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	(Dani Moncayo's message of "Fri, 14 Sep 2012 22:42:47 +0200")
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Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN> writes:

>>> Thanks, but if we agree that there is a problem here (or there is room
>>> for improvement), it would be better to fix this in the vanilla Emacs.
>>
>> It's a matter of taste (some people prefer the "(default ...)").
>
> maybe, but other people (Drew, you, me and I guess many others) prefer
> other behavior.
>
> Therefore, it seems that this should be user-configurable.

A new/first-time user will need a hint.

An experienced user or a user with some experience - one who knows what
to expect, where and when - will find it a clutter.

I believe I belong to the third camp.
-- 




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bug#12443; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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>> Thanks, but if we agree that there is a problem here (or there is room
>> for improvement), it would be better to fix this in the vanilla Emacs.
>
> It's a matter of taste (some people prefer the "(default ...)").

maybe, but other people (Drew, you, me and I guess many others) prefer
other behavior.

Therefore, it seems that this should be user-configurable.

-- 
Dani Moncayo




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#12443; Package emacs. Full text available.

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To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
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>>> I see no reason for this inconsistency,
>> Agreed.  The officially sanctioned behavior is to use "(default ...)".
> Then all commands should be consistent on that.

Agreed.

> (Anyway, I don't understand why the way of formatting the default
> value in the prompt string should make the job of this mode harder,
> because if we know what the default value is and how is formatted in
> the prompt string, it should be trivial to identify that part at the
> right side of the prompt string.  Maybe I'm missing something...)

The problem is that we don't always know how it is formatted in the
prompt (it might be a shortened version, for example).

> Thanks, but if we agree that there is a problem here (or there is room
> for improvement), it would be better to fix this in the vanilla Emacs.

It's a matter of taste (some people prefer the "(default ...)").


        Stefan




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Subject: Re: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
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>> > So, hereby I propose to fix this, i.e., to omit the "default " in
>> > those commands where this is currently shown.
>>
>> I find the "(default ...)" text to use up too much space for
>> my own taste, so I use the patch below to rewrite it on-the-fly
>> to "[...]".
>
> Just get rid of "(default ...)" altogether.  A user can use `M-n' to see the
> default value, and `M-n RET' instead of `RET' to choose it.  No big deal, and a
> lot less noise.

But some users may prefer to see the default value in the prompt.

> ---
>
> Or do as I do in Icicles: give users the choice, across all minibuffer prompts.
> They have an option, with these possible values:
>
> nil               - Do not insert default value
>                     or add it to prompt.
> t                 - Add default value to prompt
>                     (except for `read-file-name' and
>                     `read-from-minibuffer').
>                     Do not insert it.
> `insert-start'    - Insert default value
>                     and leave cursor at start.
> `insert-end'      - Insert default value
>                     and leave cursor at end.
> `preselect-start' - Insert and preselect default value;
>                     leave cursor at beginning.
> `preselect-end'   - Insert and preselect default value;
>                     leave cursor at end.
>

That looks like a good improvement, indeed.

> The default value of the option is `t' (mainly to be closer to what people are
> used to in vanilla Emacs).  But what I am suggesting for Emacs is the `nil'
> behavior as default: do nothing with the default value.  (Personally, I use
> `insert-end'.)

I'm not sure what would be the more suitable default value (whether
nil ot t), in any case, this is secondary, as anyone could customize
it.

-- 
Dani Moncayo




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Subject: Re: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
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On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 5:56 PM, Stefan Monnier
<monnier@HIDDEN> wrote:
>> I see no reason for this inconsistency,
>
> Agreed.  The officially sanctioned behavior is to use "(default ...)".

Then all commands should be consistent on that.

>> neither I see the need for the "default " part.
>
> That would make the job of minibuffer-electric-default-mode harder
> (more false positives).

I didn't know about that minor mode.  I've just read its docstring and
I think it isn't worth it, because:
* It makes the input string jump right and left, making harder to
concentrate on it.
* Users obviously know that the default value is used only when no
value is provided, so there is no need to be inserting/removing the
default value from the prompt.
* The only advantage I can see is to save space in the minibuffer when
you are entering some text, but usually the frame is wide enough not
to care about this.

(Anyway, I don't understand why the way of formatting the default
value in the prompt string should make the job of this mode harder,
because if we know what the default value is and how is formatted in
the prompt string, it should be trivial to identify that part at the
right side of the prompt string.  Maybe I'm missing something...)

>> So, hereby I propose to fix this, i.e., to omit the "default " in
>> those commands where this is currently shown.
>
> I find the "(default ...)" text to use up too much space for my own taste, so
> I use the patch below to rewrite it on-the-fly to "[...]".

Thanks, but if we agree that there is a problem here (or there is room
for improvement), it would be better to fix this in the vanilla Emacs.

-- 
Dani Moncayo




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Subject: RE: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
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> > I see no reason for this inconsistency,
> 
> Agreed.  The officially sanctioned behavior is to use "(default ...)".

> > neither I see the need for the "default " part.
> 
> That would make the job of minibuffer-electric-default-mode harder
> (more false positives).

No offense to Miles or anyone else, but that mode is just a workaround for the
bother introduced by Emacs adding `(default ...)' here and there (but not yet
everywhere).  Just get rid of the cause, instead of sticking a band-aid on the
wound.

> > So, hereby I propose to fix this, i.e., to omit the "default " in
> > those commands where this is currently shown.
> 
> I find the "(default ...)" text to use up too much space for 
> my own taste, so I use the patch below to rewrite it on-the-fly
> to "[...]".

Just get rid of "(default ...)" altogether.  A user can use `M-n' to see the
default value, and `M-n RET' instead of `RET' to choose it.  No big deal, and a
lot less noise.

---

Or do as I do in Icicles: give users the choice, across all minibuffer prompts.
They have an option, with these possible values:

nil               - Do not insert default value
                    or add it to prompt.
t                 - Add default value to prompt
                    (except for `read-file-name' and
                    `read-from-minibuffer').
                    Do not insert it.
`insert-start'    - Insert default value
                    and leave cursor at start.
`insert-end'      - Insert default value
                    and leave cursor at end.
`preselect-start' - Insert and preselect default value;
                    leave cursor at beginning.
`preselect-end'   - Insert and preselect default value;
                    leave cursor at end.

The default value of the option is `t' (mainly to be closer to what people are
used to in vanilla Emacs).  But what I am suggesting for Emacs is the `nil'
behavior as default: do nothing with the default value.  (Personally, I use
`insert-end'.)





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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#12443: 24.2.50;
	Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
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	(Dani Moncayo's message of "Fri, 14 Sep 2012 15:53:51 +0200")
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> I see no reason for this inconsistency,

Agreed.  The officially sanctioned behavior is to use "(default ...)".

> neither I see the need for the "default " part.

That would make the job of minibuffer-electric-default-mode harder
(more false positives).

> So, hereby I propose to fix this, i.e., to omit the "default " in
> those commands where this is currently shown.

I find the "(default ...)" text to use up too much space for my own taste, so
I use the patch below to rewrite it on-the-fly to "[...]".


        Stefan


Using submit branch file:///home/monnier/src/emacs/bzr/trunk/
=== modified file 'lisp/minibuf-eldef.el'
--- lisp/minibuf-eldef.el	2012-04-09 13:05:48 +0000
+++ lisp/minibuf-eldef.el	2012-09-14 15:54:47 +0000
@@ -34,15 +34,17 @@
 ;;; Code:
 
 (defvar minibuffer-default-in-prompt-regexps
-  '(("\\( (default\\>.*)\\):? \\'" . 1) ("\\( \\[.*\\]\\):? *\\'" . 1))
+  '(("\\( (default\\(?: is\\)? \\(.*\\))\\):? \\'" 1 " [\\2]")
+    ("\\( \\[.*\\]\\):? *\\'" 1))
   "A list of regexps matching the parts of minibuffer prompts showing defaults.
 When `minibuffer-electric-default-mode' is active, these regexps are
 used to identify the portions of prompts to elide.
 
-Each entry is either a string, which should be a regexp matching the
-default portion of the prompt, or a cons cell, who's car is a regexp
-matching the default part of the prompt, and who's cdr indicates the
-regexp subexpression that matched.")
+Each entry is of the form (REGEXP MATCH-NUM &optional REWRITE),
+where REGEXP should match the default part of the prompt,
+MATCH-NUM is the subgroup that matched the actual default indicator,
+and REWRITE, if present, is a string to pass to `replace-match' that
+should be displayed in its place.")
 
 
 ;;; Internal variables
@@ -85,15 +87,25 @@
 	;; See the prompt contains a default input indicator
 	(while regexps
 	  (setq match (pop regexps))
-	  (if (re-search-forward (if (stringp match) match (car match)) nil t)
-	      (setq regexps nil)
+	  (if (re-search-forward (car match) nil t)
+              (if (consp (cddr match))
+                  (let ((inhibit-read-only t)
+                        (buffer-undo-list t)
+                        (props (text-properties-at (match-beginning (cadr match)))))
+                    (replace-match (caddr match) nil nil nil (cadr match))
+                    (set-text-properties (match-beginning (cadr match))
+                                         (match-end (cadr match))
+                                         props)
+                    (setq match nil)
+                    (goto-char (point-min)))
+                (setq regexps nil))
 	    (setq match nil)))))
     (if (not match)
 	;; Nope, so just make sure our post-command-hook isn't left around.
 	(remove-hook 'post-command-hook #'minibuf-eldef-update-minibuffer t)
       ;; Yup; set things up so we can frob the prompt as the state of
       ;; the input string changes.
-      (setq match (if (consp match) (cdr match) 0))
+      (setq match (cadr match))
       (setq minibuf-eldef-overlay
 	    (make-overlay (match-beginning match) (match-end match)))
       (setq minibuf-eldef-showing-default-in-prompt t)
@@ -124,10 +136,6 @@
 	   (overlay-put minibuf-eldef-overlay 'intangible t)))))
 
 
-;;; Note this definition must be at the end of the file, because
-;;; `define-minor-mode' actually calls the mode-function if the
-;;; associated variable is non-nil, which requires that all needed
-;;; functions be already defined.  [This is arguably a bug in d-m-m]
 ;;;###autoload
 (define-minor-mode minibuffer-electric-default-mode
   "Toggle Minibuffer Electric Default mode.





Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#12443; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: 24.2.50; Default values in the minibuffer prompt (fix inconsisntecy)
From: Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>
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Severity: minor

Hello,

I see that some commands that use the minibuffer such as "C-x b"
(switch-to-buffer) present the default value in the minibuffer prompt,
as "(default <value>)", while other commands such as "C-x r m"
(bookmark-set) omit the "default " part, i.e, they show the default
value just as "(value)".

I see no reason for this inconsistency, neither I see the need for the
"default " part.

So, hereby I propose to fix this, i.e., to omit the "default " in
those commands where this is currently shown.

TIA.


In GNU Emacs 24.2.50.1 (i386-mingw-nt6.1.7601)
 of 2012-09-13 on DANI-PC
Bzr revision: 110018 eggert@HIDDEN
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 `configure --with-gcc (4.7) --no-opt --enable-checking --cflags
 -I../../libs/libxpm-3.5.8/include -I../../libs/libxpm-3.5.8/src
 -I../../libs/libpng-1.4.10 -I../../libs/zlib-1.2.6
 -I../../libs/giflib-4.1.4-1/include -I../../libs/jpeg-6b-4/include
 -I../../libs/tiff-3.8.2-1/include
 -I../../libs/libxml2-2.7.8-w32-bin/include/libxml2
 -I../../libs/gnutls-3.0.16/include
 -I../../libs/libiconv-1.14-2-mingw32-dev/include'

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: ESN
  locale-coding-system: cp1252
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t


-- 
Dani Moncayo




Acknowledgement sent to Dani Moncayo <dmoncayo@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#12443; Package emacs. Full text available.
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