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Subject: bug#19479: Package manager vulnerable
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Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2015 12:38:59 +0000
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Ivan Shmakov requested that I send this message to the bug list.

For details, see my message with subject =E2=8C=9CEmacs package manager v=
ulnerable to replay attacks=E2=8C=9D to emacs-devel on 30 Dec 2014:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-12/msg02319.html

Executive summary to fix the vulnerabilities:

0. Include a hash and length of each package's content in the package's r=
ecord in archive-contents, rather than only including the package name an=
d version number in that file as Emacs currently does. Barf if a package =
hash doesn't verify, regardless of whether any signatures verify.
(Length technically not necessary, but still generally useful, e.g. if th=
ere's a length mismatch then you know there's a content mismatch and you =
don't have to bother checking the hash.)

Stop distributing elpa-key signatures of packages, since they're superflu=
ous if you have package hashes in archive-contents and have elpa-key sign=
atures of archive-contents, and you already have the latter.

1. Include a timestamp of archive-contents in that file itself (so that t=
he signature in archive-contents.sig depends on the timestamp, so that th=
e timestamp can't be forged), and have Emacs ignore any new archive-conte=
nts that's older than the latest valid one that Emacs has already seen or=
 is older than some specified limit. One thing I forgot to mention in my =
original message: have Emacs signal a warning if it ever sees an archive-=
contents dated in the future, which indicates misconfiguration of the cli=
ent or server (or of course, some kind of mischief).

Optional alternative timestamp handling, as Ivan pointed out that Debian =
does (at least sometimes): Instead of expiring archive-contents after som=
e limit configured in Emacs, put an explicit expiration date in it. Perso=
nally, I don't like server-supplied expiration dates, kind of for a simil=
ar reason that RMS doesn't like server-supplied Javascript, or maybe just=
 because I have too many irritating memories of expired SSL certs.

Ivan suggested maybe filing those as separate bug reports, but it's point=
less to fix either of them unless both are fixed, so it makes more sense =
to include them together.

One more feature: include in each version of archive-contents a hash (and=
 length) of the previous version of that file. This isn't necessary for p=
reventing any of the vulnerabilities above, but it's easy insurance that =
slightly mitigates the disaster if the metadata signing key is compromise=
d. It's pointless unless both the above problems are fixed, so it makes s=
ense to put it here.

BTW, check whether Emacs is vulnerable to endless-data attack. (I haven't=
.) If it is, then the length field mentioned above (which is a good idea =
in any case) will assist in early detection of this attack. This belongs =
here because... well no it doesn't, but I don't want to file a separate b=
ug report for it because the report would be bogus if it turns out Emacs =
isn't vulnerable, and I've already filled my bogusness quota for the week=
.

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To: Kelly Dean <kelly@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#19479: Acknowledgement (Package manager vulnerable)
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Subject: bug#19479: Package manager vulnerable
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2015 15:00:43 -0500
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> For details, see my message with subject =E2=8C=9CEmacs package manager v=
ulnerable
> to replay attacks=E2=8C=9D to emacs-devel on 30 Dec 2014:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-12/msg02319.html

AFAICT, this vulnerability also applies to the way GNU packages are
distributed in ftp.gnu.org (i.e. as a tarball plus a .sig file).

Is that right?

> Executive summary to fix the vulnerabilities:

Another way to attack the problem is to include the file name along with
its content in "the thing that gets signed".
I.e. the signature shouldn't apply to the output of "cat <foo>" but to
the output of "echo <foo>; cat <foo>".

This way an attacker can't take <vulnerable>.tar along with
<vulnerable>.tar.sig and send them off as <safe>.tar along with
<safe>.tar.sig.


        Stefan

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

Subject: bug#19479: Package manager vulnerable
Resent-From: Kelly Dean <kelly@HIDDEN>
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To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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From: Kelly Dean <kelly@HIDDEN>
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Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2015 01:11:40 +0000
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Stefan Monnier wrote:
> AFAICT, this vulnerability also applies to the way GNU packages are
> distributed in ftp.gnu.org (i.e. as a tarball plus a .sig file).
>
> Is that right?

Yes, because there are no hashes in, or signatures on, http://ftp.gnu.org/find.txt.gz or http://ftp.gnu.org/ls-lrRt.txt.gz

They used to do it right; see
http://ftp.gnu.org/before-2003-08-01.md5sums.asc

But it looks like they stopped.

Having to redo a huge monolithic metadata file whenever any data file changes is inefficient; it's more efficient for the metadata for each directory to just have the hash of each file in the directory and the hash of the metadata of each subdirectory, like Git does. But either way will prevent package replay attacks.

>> Executive summary to fix the vulnerabilities:
>
> Another way to attack the problem is to include the file name along with
> its content in "the thing that gets signed".
> I.e. the signature shouldn't apply to the output of "cat <foo>" but to
> the output of "echo <foo>; cat <foo>".
>
> This way an attacker can't take <vulnerable>.tar along with
> <vulnerable>.tar.sig and send them off as <safe>.tar along with
> <safe>.tar.sig.

If filenames include version numbers and the version numbers are never reused, then your solution does prevent package replay attacks. Since Emacs packages already include a Version header (and the package name), you could actually do your proposed verification using that header, without changing the way signatures are currently made, which is a solution I addressed in my original emacs-devel message.

But having a list of hashes of all the packages (and even better, chaining together all the versions of that list) makes changes to any package more conspicuous, which makes the attacker's job harder, as I explained. And if you do that, then the elpa key no longer needs to sign individual packages at all. Git, Fossil, and Debian's apt-get use hash lists, and Git and Fossil also chain together the lists, so there's good precedence. Both are simple to do for Emacs: in the archive-contents file, include the hash of each package and the hash of the previous version of archive-contents.

But remember, none of the above prevents metadata replay attacks. If the user himself is specifying the metadata (e.g. you manually request Emacs 24.4 because you know that's the latest version), then verification to prevent metadata replay attacks isn't the computer's job. But when the user just says to update some package(s) to the latest version, without specifying the version, then it is the computer's job. For this, put a timestamp of the archive-contents file into the file itself.

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> If filenames include version numbers and the version numbers are never
> reused,

The ELPA system in general does not enforce that.  But the GNU ELPA
scripts do, and other ELPA servers work in a way that should generally
make sure this is also the case.

> then your solution does prevent package replay attacks. Since Emacs
> packages already include a Version header (and the package name), you could
> actually do your proposed verification using that header, without changing
> the way signatures are currently made, which is a solution I addressed in my
> original emacs-devel message.

Indeed, I realized this just after I sent my message.
So we can fix this problem simply by changing package.el so as to check
that the name&version of the downloaded file match the name&version
contained therein.
Patch welcome.

> But remember, none of the above prevents metadata replay attacks. If the
> user himself is specifying the metadata (e.g. you manually request Emacs
> 24.4 because you know that's the latest version), then verification to
> prevent metadata replay attacks isn't the computer's job. But when the user
> just says to update some package(s) to the latest version, without
> specifying the version, then it is the computer's job. For this,
> put a timestamp of the archive-contents file into the file itself.

Agreed.  It should be fairly easy to add a timestamp in there without
causing any backward incompatibility.


        Stefan

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Richard Stallman wrote:
> What do we need to do on ftp.gnu.org to avoid these dangers?

It depends on what you expect the user's responsibility to be.

If you expect him to know the latest version number of a package (without relying on the gnu.org webserver to find out, in case it's compromised), and you expect him to manually verify that his download is the latest version (in addition to verifying the signature, of course), and you give him the ability to do this by always including both the name and the version number in your packages (so far as I'm aware, you already do) and never re-using version numbers (I think you're ok here too), then you have no problem, so there's nothing you need to do.

Otherwise, the problems and solution are the same as for package distribution systems in general, as detailed at
https://www.cs.arizona.edu/stork/packagemanagersecurity/attacks-on-package-managers.html
https://www.cs.arizona.edu/stork/packagemanagersecurity/otherattacks.html

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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > If you expect him to know the latest version number of a package
  > (without relying on the gnu.org webserver to find out, in case
  > it's compromised),

It is normal for users to find the latest version based on gnu.org.
So we don't expect that.

   > and you expect him to manually verify that his download is the
   > latest version (in addition to verifying the signature, of
   > course),

The file name has the version in it.

So it seems we have a problem to fix.  Would you like to help
us fix it?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

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--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/plain

Stefan Monnier wrote:
> > If filenames include version numbers and the version numbers are never
> > reused,
>
> The ELPA system in general does not enforce that.  But the GNU ELPA
> scripts do, and other ELPA servers work in a way that should generally
> make sure this is also the case.

But having security rely on that makes it easier than necessary to accidentally open a window of vulnerability by failing to enforce that constraint. It's a brittle solution.

>> then your solution does prevent package replay attacks. Since Emacs
>> packages already include a Version header (and the package name), you could
>> actually do your proposed verification using that header, without changing
>> the way signatures are currently made, which is a solution I addressed in my
>> original emacs-devel message.
>
> Indeed, I realized this just after I sent my message.
> So we can fix this problem simply by changing package.el so as to check
> that the name&version of the downloaded file match the name&version
> contained therein.
> Patch welcome.

Ok, but as I explained in my original message, that solution still makes the attacker's job easier than necessary in some cases. Verifying the hash is a more robust solution than verifying the version number, so my patch below verifies the hash.

This is forward compatible. You can install this now and start putting archive-contents with hashes on elpa (and melpa and marmalade), and old clients will simply ignore the hashes and operate as usual.

BTW, one happy side effect of properly fixing this vulnerability is eliminating melpa's incentive to mangle package version numbers (they're mangled apparently to deal with the problem of package maintainers reusing version numbers).

> It should be fairly easy to add a timestamp in there without
> causing any backward incompatibility.

Unfortunately, I don't see how to add timestamps to archive-contents without breaking old clients, so the metadata replay vulnerability will have to remain open until you decide how to handle the compatibility problem. My patch here only fixes the package replay vulnerability.

--=-=-=
Content-Type: text/x-diff
Content-Disposition: inline; filename=package-replay-vuln.patch

--- emacs-24.4/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el
+++ emacs-24.4/lisp/emacs-lisp/package.el
@@ -314,6 +314,11 @@
 
 (defvar package--default-summary "No description available.")
 
+(defvar package-hashfun 'sha256 "Function for secure hashing.")
+
+(defvar package-acceptable-hashfuns '(sha256)
+  "Past and current `package-hashfun' functions that are still secure.")
+
 (cl-defstruct (package-desc
                ;; Rename the default constructor from `make-package-desc'.
                (:constructor package-desc-create)
@@ -843,6 +848,20 @@
                          (epg-context-result-for context 'verify)))
         good-signatures))))
 
+(defun package--check-size (pkg-desc)
+  (eq (cdr (assoc :size (package-desc-extras pkg-desc)))
+      (pcase (package-desc-kind pkg-desc)
+	(`single (string-bytes (buffer-string)))
+	(`tar (buffer-size)) ; Because insert-file-contents mangled the literal
+	(kind (error "Unknown package kind: %s" kind)))))
+
+(defun package--check-hash (pkg-desc)
+  (let* ((x (cdr (assoc :hash (package-desc-extras pkg-desc))))
+	 (hashfun (car x)) ; Avoid Git's shortsightedness
+	 (hash (cadr x)))
+    (and (memq hashfun package-acceptable-hashfuns)
+	 (string= hash (secure-hash hashfun (current-buffer))))))
+
 (defun package-install-from-archive (pkg-desc)
   "Download and install a tar package."
   (let* ((location (package-archive-base pkg-desc))
@@ -859,6 +878,10 @@
 	    (unless (eq package-check-signature 'allow-unsigned)
 	      (error "Unsigned package: `%s'"
 		     (package-desc-name pkg-desc)))))
+      (unless (package--check-size pkg-desc)
+	(error "File size not correct: %s" (package-desc-name pkg-desc)))
+      (unless (package--check-hash pkg-desc)
+	(error "Failed to verify hash: %s" (package-desc-name pkg-desc)))
       (package-unpack pkg-desc))
     ;; Here the package has been installed successfully, mark it as
     ;; signed if appropriate.
@@ -1172,7 +1195,10 @@
            (package--prepare-dependencies
             (package-read-from-string requires-str)))
        :kind 'single
-       :url homepage))))
+       :url homepage
+       :size (string-bytes (buffer-string))
+       :hash (list package-hashfun
+		   (secure-hash package-hashfun (current-buffer)))))))
 
 (declare-function tar-get-file-descriptor "tar-mode" (file))
 (declare-function tar--extract "tar-mode" (descriptor))
@@ -1184,7 +1210,10 @@
   (let* ((dir-name (file-name-directory
                     (tar-header-name (car tar-parse-info))))
          (desc-file (package--description-file dir-name))
-         (tar-desc (tar-get-file-descriptor (concat dir-name desc-file))))
+         (tar-desc (tar-get-file-descriptor (concat dir-name desc-file)))
+	 (size (buffer-size tar-data-buffer))
+	 (hash (list package-hashfun
+		     (secure-hash package-hashfun tar-data-buffer))))
     (unless tar-desc
       (error "No package descriptor file found"))
     (with-current-buffer (tar--extract tar-desc)
@@ -1196,7 +1225,8 @@
                       (error "Can't find define-package in %s"
                              (tar-header-name tar-desc))
                     (apply #'package-desc-from-define
-                           (append (cdr pkg-def-parsed))))))
+                           (append (cdr pkg-def-parsed)
+				   (list :size size :hash hash))))))
             (setf (package-desc-kind pkg-desc) 'tar)
             pkg-desc)
         (kill-buffer (current-buffer))))))

--=-=-=--

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I appreciate the spirit of wanting to provide a patch, but unless you
have changed your position on the Emacs copyright assignment, I don't
see that this patch can be used by Emacs.

(Ref: http://debbugs.gnu.org/14492#19)

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Glenn Morris wrote:
> I appreciate the spirit of wanting to provide a patch, but unless you
> have changed your position on the Emacs copyright assignment, I don't
> see that this patch can be used by Emacs.

I did do what you requested: submit a bug report, but not a patch. But th=
is isn't just a bug; it's a security vulnerability, and Stefan invited me=
 to submit a patch to fix it. So then I did.

Regarding the copyright issue, please don't conflate two separate issues =
like your copyright clerk tried to.

The first issue is: does the FSF want any more public domain code in Emac=
s than is already there? The answer is =E2=80=9Fno=E2=80=9D, as explained=
 by Donald R Robertson III, your copyright clerk, on February 19, 2013. W=
hen explaining why the FSF wouldn't accept my PD code, he wrote, =E2=80=9F=
It really is more beneficial for our enforcement efforts if we get the wo=
rk assigned instead of 'disclaimed'. We will only accept a disclaimer ins=
tead of an assignment in particular circumstances.=E2=80=9D

Of course, he's right; PD code isn't useful for your enforcement efforts,=
 but it's absurd to say it's an issue for my patches, which even includin=
g this latest one, amount to no more than a few parts per million of the =
Emacs code base. Obviously it doesn't hurt your efforts; no copyright jud=
ge is going to care if Emacs has a few lines of Hamlet or any other PD in=
formation in it. The judge will let you sue people for GPL violations jus=
t the same.

Anyway, the first issue is clear: new PD code is unwelcome in Emacs. Emac=
s is your project, not mine, so regardless of how silly I think your excl=
usion of PD code is, I abided (and still abide) by your wishes. I submitt=
ed this patch because Stefan invited me to. Maybe Stefan just forgot that=
 you asked me not to submit any more patches, but I assumed he invited th=
is patch because a security vulnerability counted as a =E2=80=9Fparticula=
r circumstance=E2=80=9D that your copyright clerk mentioned.

The second issue is: is my code in the public domain? The answer is =E2=80=
=9Fyes=E2=80=9D; the author of SQLite says that's PD, and it is, the auth=
or of Qmail says that's PD, and it is, and I'm simply doing the same thin=
g they are. My code is in the public domain. If you want, I can PGP-sign =
and publish on my website a statement that my patches are PD, even though=
 that's more than the authors of SQLite and Qmail deemed necessary for th=
eir code.

Your clerk wrote, =E2=80=9Fplacing a work in the public domain is difficu=
lt/may not be possible=E2=80=9D. But that's obviously false, as proven by=
 his statement that you do (sometimes) accept disclaimers, and as proven =
by the general legal acceptance of other people's statements that their w=
ork is PD, including highly respected authors such as Richard Hipp.

It's clear that the second issue is not an issue, especially in the Unite=
d States, which is where I am, and the only purpose served by the FSF bri=
nging it up is clouding the first issue, which is the only real issue.

I recommend not rejecting a patch to fix a security vulnerability just fo=
r the sake of keeping 29 lines of new PD code out of Emacs. If it really =
is too much PD code, then I recommend deleting feedmail.el (PD) to compen=
sate.

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Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2015 11:40:25 +0000
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BTW, Stefan mentioned (see bug #19536) that you don't use package-x for elpa.gnu.org, and instead use some other scripts, so it just occurred to me that you might not immediately notice that my patch not only verifies hashes, but also generates them, so there's nothing extra you need to do.

Just use package-upload-file from package-x.el, and it will automatically add the appropriate entry (including hash) for the package to the archive-contents file.

Apply the fix for bug #19536 if you want package-upload-file to correctly add tar files to the archive's package directory. (It already correctly adds single-file packages.)

GNU elpa, Melpa, and Marmalade can start using the new archive-contents now. Old clients will still work fine, and simply ignore the hashes. New clients will verify them.

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> of PD code is, I abided (and still abide) by your wishes. I submitted this
> patch because Stefan invited me to. Maybe Stefan just forgot that you ask=
ed
> me not to submit any more patches,

Indeed, that's the case.  You're one of the very rare oddballs who can't
be bothered to sign a trivial document to get this out of the way, but
for the life of me, I can't remember the names of the handful of
oddballs, so I keep repeating this error.

> but I assumed he invited this patch because a security vulnerability
> counted as a =E2=80=9Fparticular circumstance=E2=80=9D that your copyright
> clerk mentioned.

Emacs is full of vulnerabilities and has barely started using encryption
technology to try and eliminate some of them, so no, it's definitely not
"special" in this sense.  And in any case the "special"ness usually
doesn't refer to the usefulness of the code but rather to the fact that
it'd be difficult to get this code some other way (i.e. it's both
important/useful code and it'd take a while to rewrite it).


        Stefan

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Stefan Monnier wrote:
> You're one of the very rare oddballs who can't
> be bothered to sign a trivial document to get this out of the way

That's not true. I offered to sign a document saying my work is PD.

The following say that's an option:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.manual
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.changes.manual
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.program

The copyright clerk declined my offer.

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>> You're one of the very rare oddballs who can't
>> be bothered to sign a trivial document to get this out of the way
> That's not true. I offered to sign a document saying my work is PD.

I didn't mean "a trivial document" in the sense "any trivial document",
but rather "the particular trivial document that everybody else signed".


        Stefan

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--=-=-=
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Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> You're one of the very rare oddballs who can't
>>> be bothered to sign a trivial document to get this out of the way
>> That's not true. I offered to sign a document saying my work is PD.
>
> I didn't mean "a trivial document" in the sense "any trivial document",
> but rather "the particular trivial document that everybody else signed".

The FSF doesn't have just one document for contributors; it has multiples, three of which I linked to in my previous message, and at least two more that are for assignment instead of disclaimer (one for only past contributions, and one for past and future contributions).

More than two years ago, I asked the copyright clerk to send me a disclaimer form to sign. He refused. This is the _only_ reason that the FSF doesn't already have a disclaimer on file for me.

If I sign an assignment document (i.e. saying that I own intellectual property for my work and that I'm assigning that ownership to the FSF), then I would just be committing perjury, because I don't own PD works. Nothing I sign can remove anything from the public domain.

Again, please don't conflate two separate issues:
0. The FSF is refusing new PD code in Emacs. (I would be happy to learn that I'm mistaken about this.)
1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching a signed document to establish it.)

Because the clerk refused to send me anything to sign that would establish #1 to the FSF's satisfaction, today I printed, signed, and scanned the attached document based on the disclaimer forms the FSF has published, to make it abundantly clear that my work is PD and that the FSF is free to use my work with no legal restrictions whatsoever.

I'm also CCing it to assign@HIDDEN, even though at this point I assume the clerk will come up with some excuse to reject it.

If the clerk feels this doesn't make #1 clear enough, then please tell me what needs to change. Even better, send me the exact disclaimer form you want me to sign, which I asked for in the first place.

I repeat: nothing I sign can remove anything from the public domain. So nothing I sign can assign to the FSF ownership of my work; if assignment is what the FSF insists on, then it's asking for the impossible.

The attached document is to establish #1 to the FSF's satisfaction. The FSF alone has the ability to solve #0; it has nothing to do with me.

Here's the text of the attached document:

This document is derived from the following sources:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.manual
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.program

I, Kelly Dean, American citizen and resident, hereby disclaim all patent, copyright, and all other forms of intellectual property ownership of and interest in all of my patches, software manuals, software programs, source code, documentation, revisions thereof, and all other works, past, present, and future, that I sent or will send to the emacs-devel@HIDDEN or bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN mailing lists, to 19479 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, to any other mailing list or email address at gnu.org or any subdomain thereof, or to any developer or maintainer of GNU Emacs or any other GNU software, from my previous (no longer active) email address of kellydeanch@HIDDEN, my current email address of kelly@HIDDEN, or any other email address.

I affirm that I have no other proprietary interest that would undermine this release, and will do nothing to undermine it in the future. I represent that all of the aforementioned works are my own and not a copy of someone else's work, except where sources are cited. Patches include citations and partial copies of the works to which the patches apply.

I created all of the works exclusively on my own time. They are not works made for hire, and there's no educational institution, employer, or any other organization or person who owns them. I do not have any agreement with any person or organization saying he or it owns programs I write, and I did not have any such agreement when I created any of the aforementioned works.

All of the works are permanently and irrevocably in the public domain.

Kelly Dean
kelly@HIDDEN
January 8, 2015


--=-=-=
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Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=gnu-disclaimer.pdf
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--=-=-=--

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN
Subject: bug#19479: Copyright issue
Resent-From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
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X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 19479
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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 10:17:52 -0500
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> 1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching
>    a signed document to establish it.)

It can't be PD.  You're simply confused about it.  It will only be PD 75
years after your death (or something like that).  Until then, all you
can do is sign paperworks, and currently for Emacs contributions we
require this paperwork to be a copyright assignment rather than
a disclaimer.


        Stefan

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Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN> writes:

>> 1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching
>>    a signed document to establish it.)
>
> It can't be PD.  You're simply confused about it.  It will only be PD
> 75 years after your death (or something like that).

If I remember correctly, if he is living in the U.S.A. and registers a
specific work with the U.S. copyright office as being released by him
into the public domain, then the work will indeed be in the public
domain within the U.S.A.  We need to bother with more than the U.S.A.,
however, and one can only register specific works which means it is not
possible to register them before they are even created.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> 1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching
>>    a signed document to establish it.)
>
> It can't be PD.  You're simply confused about it.  It will only be PD 7=
5
> years after your death (or something like that).  Until then, all you
> can do is sign paperworks, and currently for Emacs contributions we
> require this paperwork to be a copyright assignment rather than
> a disclaimer.

GNU's own website says it can be PD. The documents at the three links I s=
ent you start with:
=E2=8C=9CI'd like to ask you to sign a disclaimer for the manual, thus pu=
tting it in the public domain.=E2=8C=9D
=E2=8C=9CI'd like to ask you to sign a disclaimer for the program, thus p=
utting it in the public domain.=E2=8C=9D
=E2=8C=9CI'd like to ask you to sign a disclaimer for your changes, thus =
putting them in the public domain.=E2=8C=9D

Notice the =E2=8C=9Cthus putting them in the public domain=E2=8C=9D.

Also, do you claim that SQLite is not PD? The author, Richard Hipp, says =
it's PD, and the many millions of users of SQLite, including many major c=
ompanies with lots of copyright lawyers, accept the legal fact that it's =
PD. And Richard Hipp is not dead.

Also, do you claim that feedmail.el is not PD? The first lines of it are:
;;; feedmail.el --- assist other email packages to massage outgoing messa=
ges
;;; This file is in the public domain.

;; This file is part of GNU Emacs.

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I must say, that it was not my impression that disclaimers were not
accaptable for Emacs. Only that the FSF does not offer a "past and
future" option for disclaimers like it does for assignments, so a new
disclaimer would have to be completed for every new change. I thought
this was not worth bothering with, so I advised you not to send more patches.

But I certainly don't know, I just go with whatever assign@gnu says.

I don't see much point discussing this on emacs-devel. None of us are
lawyers so our opinions are pretty irrelevant. We need to wait and see
what assign@gnu says.

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Glenn Morris wrote:

> I must say, that it was not my impression that disclaimers were not
> accaptable for Emacs. Only that the FSF does not offer a "past and
> future" option for disclaimers like it does for assignments, so a new
> disclaimer would have to be completed for every new change. I thought
> this was not worth bothering with, so I advised you not to send more patches.

PS but yes, for a non-trivial security issue like 19479 it did seem
worth it to me, so I was on the verge of saying, would you be willing to
complete a disclaimer for this change. But then Stefan said disclaimers
were not viable, so I didn't bother to say it.

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David Kastrup wrote:
> We need to bother with more than the U.S.A.,
> however

Does this mean that all PD code, including feedmail.el, needs to be deleted from Emacs? The authors of that code don't satisfy the not-USA countries' supposed requirements of having been dead for 75 years or so.

> one can only register specific works which means it is not
> possible to register them before they are even created.

Ouch. Unfortunately, I've been busy and have had no time for proper preparation, so I'll parry your blow next week. ;-)

Anyway, my patch that Glenn objected to was created in the past, not the future, so at least that one is ok.

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From: Kelly Dean <kelly@HIDDEN>
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Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2015 21:49:54 +0000
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I wrote:
> Anyway, my patch that Glenn objected to was created in the past, not th=
e future, so at least that one is ok.

Actually my future patches are ok too.

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.=
program says:
=E2=8C=9CDigital Stimulation Corporation hereby disclaims all copyright i=
nterest
  in the program "seduce" (a program to direct assemblers to make passes =
at
  compilers under GNU Emacs) written by Hugh Heffner, including both the
  present version of the program and his/her future changes and
  enhancements to it.=E2=8C=9D

Notice the disclaimer applies to future work. Which means my disclaimer a=
pplying to future work is effective.

If the FSF thinks it has to register those PD works (which would be absur=
d, but absurdity has never stopped lawyers), that's a separate issue from=
 the one-time disclaimer (covering past and future work) that the disclai=
m.program file shows that the FSF does accept. It isn't any extra burden =
for the FSF compared to assignment, since obviously the FSF can only regi=
ster intellectual property ownership of assigned works after those works =
are created too, so the FSF still has to constantly (or annually or whate=
ver) send new paperwork to the copyright office even for contributors who=
 have signed an assignment form. IOW, Stefan keeps the lawyers a lot busi=
er than I do. ;-)

But again, even if for some weird reason the lawyers think my disclaimer =
for future work isn't effective, it certainly is effective for my previou=
s work, including my patch for bug #19479. (And if it isn't, then they're=
 welcome to point out what's wrong with it, and send me a disclaimer form=
 that _is_ effective, which I asked for already in 2012). If necessary, I=
 can re-date and re-sign it in the future to cover new work, which is fin=
e since my contributions to Emacs are infrequent.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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All this arguing just to try and avoid signing the standard document
baffles me,


        Stefan


>>>>> "Kelly" =3D=3D Kelly Dean <kelly@HIDDEN> writes:

> I wrote:
>> Anyway, my patch that Glenn objected to was created in the past, not the
>> future, so at least that one is ok.

> Actually my future patches are ok too.

> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.=
program says:
> =E2=8C=9CDigital Stimulation Corporation hereby disclaims all copyright i=
nterest
>   in the program "seduce" (a program to direct assemblers to make passes =
at
>   compilers under GNU Emacs) written by Hugh Heffner, including both the
>   present version of the program and his/her future changes and
>   enhancements to it.=E2=8C=9D

> Notice the disclaimer applies to future work. Which means my disclaimer
> applying to future work is effective.

> If the FSF thinks it has to register those PD works (which would be absur=
d,
> but absurdity has never stopped lawyers), that's a separate issue from the
> one-time disclaimer (covering past and future work) that the
> disclaim.program file shows that the FSF does accept. It isn't any extra
> burden for the FSF compared to assignment, since obviously the FSF can on=
ly
> register intellectual property ownership of assigned works after those wo=
rks
> are created too, so the FSF still has to constantly (or annually or
> whatever) send new paperwork to the copyright office even for contributors
> who have signed an assignment form. IOW, Stefan keeps the lawyers a lot
> busier than I do. ;-)

> But again, even if for some weird reason the lawyers think my disclaimer =
for
> future work isn't effective, it certainly is effective for my previous wo=
rk,
> including my patch for bug #19479. (And if it isn't, then they're welcome=
 to
> point out what's wrong with it, and send me a disclaimer form that _is_
> effective, which I asked for already in 2012). If necessary, I can re-date
> and re-sign it in the future to cover new work, which is fine since my
> contributions to Emacs are infrequent.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Stefan Monnier wrote:
> All this arguing just to try and avoid signing the standard document
> baffles me

If I sign an assignment document, then I would be committing perjury. Possibly in the legal sense, and at least in the moral sense.

And there isn't just one standard document. There are at least five; three for disclaimers, and two for assignments. I asked the clerk to choose the correct disclaimer for me. If he'd done it, none of this arguing would be necessary.

All of which I already pointed out, so I'm baffled by your bafflement.

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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

In general, we do accept code whose copyright has been disclaimed by
the author.  That is not our preference, but it is ok.

Would you please discuss this privately with me and the copyright clerk?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

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> If I sign an assignment document, then I would be committing perjury.

No, the assignment document is just for the Emacs code you wrote and
whose copyright you own.  It simply doesn't apply to the code whose
copyright you don't own (which normally only happens when the copyright
is owned by your employer).


        Stefan

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Back on topic...

I found a good way to add timestamps to prevent metadata replay (the othe=
r vulnerability), and to further harden the package manager's security, b=
ut of course I'll wait until we hear from the clerk before trying to impl=
ement it.

The reason I said there's a compatibility problem for timestamps is that =
archive-contents is a list consisting just of a version number followed b=
y a bunch of package records; the list's format isn't extensible (though =
the package record format is extensible). There's no way to insert a time=
stamp without changing the list's format (and thus, the version number), =
but if you do that, then old clients can't understand archive-contents an=
ymore.

Even worse, old clients become stuck because they store the new-format (i=
ncompatible) file before checking the version number, then barf on it and=
 refuse to accept even an old-format (compatible) file to replace it unti=
l you manually delete the stored one.

I see four possible solutions:
0. Have a flag day, on which all the elpas switch to the new format, and =
on or before which everybody must upgrade to Emacs 25 or his package mana=
ger will stop working.
1. Have the server check the User-Agent header, and send the old-format f=
ile if it's =E2=8C=9CURL/Emacs=E2=8C=9D, and the new-format if it's =E2=8C=
=9CURL/Emacs-25=E2=8C=9D or later.
2. Use a different URL for the new-format file.
3. Keep the old format, and put the timestamp in a different file.

#0 obviously isn't an option.
I advise against #1, for reasons which everybody here already knows.
#2 would work, but is inelegant, since you would still have to retain the=
 old-format file for the sake of old clients, and it's inefficient, since=
 new clients would have to periodically re-download the entire file (fair=
ly big, in Melpa's case) even if nothing but the timestamp changed (and c=
lients have to demand fresh timestamps in order to prevent metadata repla=
y attacks).

#3 looks like the best solution. The timestamp file includes the timestam=
p and the hash of archive-contents. Sign the timestamp file for the sake =
of new clients.

Old clients would ignore the timestamp file. If archive-contents is uncha=
nged, then new clients would only have to periodically re-download the ti=
mestamp file and signature--the minimal amount of data necessary. They'd =
see that the current hash of archive-contents matches the version they al=
ready have stored. IOW, to whoever made archive-contents inextensible: th=
ank you! You've forced the right solution to timestamping. ;-)

Combined with my previous patch, this leaves the timestamp-file's signatu=
re as the only one that's necessary to secure the entire archive (package=
s and metadata, including timestamp) and prevent both package and metadat=
a replay attacks. IMHO, this simplicity makes it practical to insist that=
 all elpas provide this signature, so Emacs 25 could enforce it by defaul=
t.

Optionally continue signing archive-contents for the sake of 24.4 clients=
, but since 25 won't need that signature, nothing before 24.4 is capable =
of checking it, 24.4 doesn't enforce it by default, Melpa doesn't even pr=
ovide it IIUC (GNU Elpa does), and 24.4 is vulnerable to package and meta=
data replay anyway, you might as well not. The kind of people who have ch=
anged package-check-signature to t will upgrade to 25 anyway.

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Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> If I sign an assignment document, then I would be committing perjury.
>
> No, the assignment document is just for the Emacs code you wrote and
> whose copyright you own.  It simply doesn't apply to the code whose
> copyright you don't own (which normally only happens when the copyright
> is owned by your employer).

I don't have a copy of it handy, but if that's the way it's worded, then you're right, it wouldn't be illegal for me to sign it. It would only be immoral. It would be legally vacuous, and deceptive, leading to doubt about my intent.

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>> No, the assignment document is just for the Emacs code you wrote
>> and whose copyright you own.  It simply doesn't apply to the code
>> whose copyright you don't own (which normally only happens when the
>> copyright is owned by your employer).
> 
> I don't have a copy of it handy, but if that's the way it's worded,
> then you're right, it wouldn't be illegal for me to sign it. It
> would only be immoral. It would be legally vacuous, and deceptive,
> leading to doubt about my intent.

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but quite relevant IMHO in a global
perspective:

It is *not* possible to create not-copyrighted code in some
jurisdictions like Germany.  Whatever you write, it is by default
copyrighted by you (regardless whether there is a `public domain' line
or not), and you have to explicitly disclaim or reassign the
copyright.

For this reason, it is *much* better to use a license like CC0 instead
of a public domain notice, since this covers the `public domain' idea
in virtually all countries.  Actually, this is what the FSF recommends
(https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#CC0), and I guess
this works for emacs also, since it works already for GNU (according
to https://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html#legal).


    Werner

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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Instead of having a discussion here, please let me get this worked out
between Kelly and our clerk, with the help of lawyers when needed.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

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The FSF has accepted my disclaimer and added me to their records. You can install my patches if you find them satisfactory on technical grounds.

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block 19759 by 18718 19407 19479 19548

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Note, I'm not implementing the metadata-replay fix, because it's unlikely my patch would be accepted, so somebody else will need to do it. See my January 11th message to bug #19479 for a description of how to do it.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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So, I don't want to get into this discussion, but I've always assumed
that disclaimers do not/cannot apply to future changes. I asked
assign@HIDDEN, and they confirmed "Disclaimers are not valid for future
contributions".

I mention this because AFAICS you are sending new patches.

Your disclaimer is dated 2015-1-8. AFAICS we cannot apply anything after
that. Someone should also check the several patches from you that have
been applied recently to make sure they originated before this date.

Sorry, I don't have time/inclination to discuss special cases.
Maybe you want to take it up with rms and/or assign@gnu.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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> So, I don't want to get into this discussion,

And yet you chose to dig it back up, even after everybody else was satisf=
ied that it was resolved more than a month ago. The copyright clerk's exa=
ct words on January 20th were, =E2=80=9FWe've accepted the public domain =
disclaimer and added you to our records=E2=80=9D, not =E2=80=9Fwe've acce=
pted part of the disclaimer, but rejected another part=E2=80=9D.

The disclaimer covers future changes, and everybody's comments about that=
 part had already been CCed to the clerk, and his answer was, =E2=80=9FWe=
've accepted the public domain disclaimer=E2=80=9D.

> but I've always assumed
> that disclaimers do not/cannot apply to future changes. I asked
> assign@HIDDEN, and they confirmed "Disclaimers are not valid for futur=
e
> contributions".

Good luck finding a copyright judge anywhere in America who would agree w=
ith your absurd claim that my work since January 8th is not in the public=
 domain, despite my signed statement that it is.

Or if you admit it is PD, I'm sure you can dream up some rationalization =
of why PD code isn't allowed in Emacs, and then try to remove it all, whi=
ch is a lot more than just my code.

Either way, I'm done trying to work on Emacs. This B.S. isn't worth my ti=
me.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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Kelly Dean wrote:

>> So, I don't want to get into this discussion,
>
> And yet you chose to dig it back up, even after everybody else was
> satisfied that it was resolved more than a month ago.

I've been largely on a break from Emacs. I always thought there was
something strange here, and I just happened to get motivated enough now
to ask assign@gnu for clarification when I saw patches were still arriving.

> The copyright clerk's exact words on January 20th were, =E2=80=9FWe've
> accepted the public domain disclaimer and added you to our records",
> not =E2=80=9Fwe've accepted part of the disclaimer, but rejected another
> part".

I specifically mentioned you by name in the question I asked assign@gnu,
and the reply I got (one day ago) was, in totality:

   Disclaimers are not valid for future contributions. Thanks for checking =
in.

Like I said, you can take it up with them if you disagree.
I'be glad to be corrected, but it all seems pretty clear to me.

I am not trying to be the bad guy and I am not out to get you.
I applied several patches from you and would have been happy to apply more.
I am just trying to ensure Emacs follows the FSF's procedures,
which seem pretty clear to me.

Vibhav Pant wrote:

> Well, what about
> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/request-a=
ssign.future?
> This is the form to request documents for assigning past and future
> works, which according to you isn't possible.

That's not what I said.
I said: I am told *disclaimers* cannot apply to future changes.

You will note that there are separate documents for *assigning* past
changes (request-assign.changes), and past-and-future changes
(request-assign.future). But for *disclaimers* there is only
request-disclaim.changes. There is no request-disclaim.future.
If you read

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/tree/doc/Copyright/request-disc=
laim.changes

it quite clearly states that it only applies to past, finished changes.

I am not a lawyer (AFAIK, neither is anyone else on this list) and
have no interest in discussing why these things are different.
They just are.

I said the first time we went through this that it was my
understanding that disclaimers worked this way. I said it again here:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00198.html

I have now had this confirmed by assign@gnu.

If you (the generic you) want to contribute to Emacs, there is a
well-defined, simple procedure that hundreds of people have followed
with no problem.

If you don't want to follow the procedure, then fine, that's your
prerogative. Then you can't contribute.

But please don't start arguing with us about what the procedure is, or
should be, or what you think a judge might say, or why you need to be an
exception. We don't set the rules here at Emacs, and it just isn't a
productive use of anyone's time.

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> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2015 16:09:57 -0500
> Cc: 19479 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@HIDDEN
> 
> I am not a lawyer (AFAIK, neither is anyone else on this list) and
> have no interest in discussing why these things are different.
> They just are.
> 
> I said the first time we went through this that it was my
> understanding that disclaimers worked this way. I said it again here:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-01/msg00198.html
> 
> I have now had this confirmed by assign@gnu.
> 
> 
> If you (the generic you) want to contribute to Emacs, there is a
> well-defined, simple procedure that hundreds of people have followed
> with no problem.
> 
> If you don't want to follow the procedure, then fine, that's your
> prerogative. Then you can't contribute.
> 
> But please don't start arguing with us about what the procedure is, or
> should be, or what you think a judge might say, or why you need to be an
> exception. We don't set the rules here at Emacs, and it just isn't a
> productive use of anyone's time.

Two and a half years later, with no one complaining about this, it
doesn't sound right for this issue to block the release of Emacs 26.1.

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unblock 24655 by 19479
thanks

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[Dropping emacs-devel, since that seems unlikely to be productive given
the lack of context.]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Two and a half years later, with no one complaining about this, it
> doesn't sound right for this issue to block the release of Emacs 26.1.

The context here was security vulnerabilities in the package manager.
Personally I'm uneasy with saying "we've ignored this for X years so
let's continue to ignore it.". But I don't have anything substantive to
add.

Message sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:

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 Content preview:  Kelly Dean <kelly@HIDDEN> writes: > Ivan Shmakov requested
    that I send this message to the bug list. > > For details, see my message
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--00000000000081bb75059412a0f0
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Kelly Dean <kelly@HIDDEN> writes:

> Ivan Shmakov requested that I send this message to the bug list.
>
> For details, see my message with subject =E2=8C=9CEmacs package manager v=
ulnerable to replay attacks=E2=8C=9D to emacs-devel on 30 Dec 2014:
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2014-12/msg02319.html
>
> Executive summary to fix the vulnerabilities:
>
> 0. Include a hash and length of each package's content in the package's r=
ecord
> in archive-contents, rather than only including the package name and vers=
ion
> number in that file as Emacs currently does. Barf if a package hash doesn=
't
> verify, regardless of whether any signatures verify.
> (Length technically not necessary, but still generally useful, e.g. if
> there's a length mismatch then you know there's a content mismatch and
> you don't have to bother checking the hash.)

I have implemented the first part of the protection against metadata
replay attacks in the attached patch: support for checksum (or hash)
verification.  This change is backwards-compatible; the new fields can
be added to "archive-contents" file without impacting old clients.
I've not yet updated documentation, NEWS, etc. but will get to that
next.

I introduce a new user option `package-verify-checksums' that controls
this new behaviour.  The default is 'allow-missing', which only
carries out this check if there are checksums in "archive-contents",
and does nothing otherwise.  In itself, this does nothing to protect
against metadata replay attacks (but might protect against data
corruption).  You need to set `package-verify-checksums' to t, and
implement timestamping (discussed below).

I still suggest to stick with this default for Emacs 27.1, or at least
until common package archives can catch up.  Once this is implemented
in GNU ELPA and MELPA, it makes more sense to move to a stricter
default.  Otherwise, the transition will be very bumpy.  I therefore
suggest to discuss stricter defaults later.

(BTW, I didn't bother fixing the package-x.el code for this patch,
since it seems like it's not that widely used.  It will work as
before, but lack support for adding the checksums automatically.)

> 1. Include a timestamp of archive-contents in that file itself (so that t=
he
> signature in archive-contents.sig depends on the timestamp, so that the
> timestamp can't be forged), and have Emacs ignore any new archive-content=
s
> that's older than the latest valid one that Emacs has already seen or is =
older
> than some specified limit. One thing I forgot to mention in my original m=
essage:
> have Emacs signal a warning if it ever sees an archive-contents dated in =
the
> future, which indicates misconfiguration of the client or server (or of c=
ourse,
> some kind of mischief).

To protect against metadata replay attacks, it is correct that we need
timestamps too.  I haven't done that in this first patch, but I hope
to do it in a following patch.  I wanted to get this first part done
before I started working on that.

My current best idea for how to do it is one which AFAICT haven't been
raised in this thread before: to add a comment with an RFC3339
timestamp to the top of the "archive-contents" file:

    ;; Last-Updated: 2019-10-01T15:32:55.000Z

This will be ignored by older versions of Emacs, since package.el uses
(read (current-buffer)) to read this file.  New versions will have
an easy time parsing this header, caching the value, and refusing to
update the package cache if the timestamp is older than one we have
already seen.  With that, we would have implemented protection
against metadata replay attacks.

I think it would be highly beneficial if this could go in before Emacs
27, not least so that package archives can start implementing support
for this.

Comments on all this are obviously more than welcome.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

PS. Note that the original thread ended up highly off-topic discussing
copyright issues, because one potential contributor refused to sign
the standard copyright assignment.  The eventual outcome was that we
could not use a patch written by that person.  I have therefore
deliberately not looked at that persons patch in order to avoid any
copyright issues.  I have implemented this from scratch based solely
on the below link, and the discussion in this thread:
https://www2.cs.arizona.edu/stork/packagemanagersecurity/attacks-on-package=
-managers.html

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--00000000000081bb75059412a0f0--

Last modified: Mon, 25 Nov 2019 12:00:02 UTC

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.