GNU bug report logs - #20323
25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode

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Package: emacs;

Reported by: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>

Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 02:52:01 UTC

Severity: wishlist

Found in version 25.0.50

Done: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

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Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Tue, 14 Apr 2015 02:52:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org. (Tue, 14 Apr 2015 02:52:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for
 emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 05:51:01 +0300
According to the previous discussions, we don't want to reformat code in
bulk. Still, it would be better to converge on one style eventually.

Regardless of how bug#20322 ends up, setting indent-tabs-mode in this
repository's top-level .dir-locals.el will be an improvement.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Tue, 14 Apr 2015 03:10:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #8 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50;
 Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for
 emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 2015 23:09:24 -0400
> According to the previous discussions, we don't want to reformat code in
> bulk.  Still, it would be better to converge on one style eventually.
> Regardless of how bug#20322 ends up, setting indent-tabs-mode in this
> repository's top-level .dir-locals.el will be an improvement.

My life is a lot better now that I simply pay no attention to
these issues.


        Stefan




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:17:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #11 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 15:16:17 +0300
On 04/14/2015 06:09 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> My life is a lot better now that I simply pay no attention to
> these issues.

Then you wouldn't mind this change either, right? ;-)

The OCD people should feel a little better, and everybody else will just 
move on.

Unless someone is particularly fond of the tabs-and-spaces mix we get in 
indentation inside .el files, of course. But normally, mixing them is 
considered combining the worst of the two worlds.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:59:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #14 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50;
 Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for
 emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 12:57:47 -0400
> The OCD people should feel a little better, and everybody else will just
> move on.

Half of the OCD people will feel a bit better and the other half will
go bonkers.

But yes, I personally couldn't care less about the value of
indent-tabs-mode in emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode inside the Emacs sources.
[ The main point here is that it should only affect the Emacs
source code.  ]

So feel free to change it any way you like.  You can even have
a commit-fight-fest where people keep changing it back and forth, if
you like.


        Stefan




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Tue, 14 Apr 2015 22:31:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #17 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2015 01:30:39 +0300
On 04/14/2015 07:57 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> Half of the OCD people will feel a bit better and the other half will
> go bonkers.

As a card-carrying member of the OCD club (not really), a definite 
choice in favor of the opposition would still be better than no choice, 
in my book.

> But yes, I personally couldn't care less about the value of
> indent-tabs-mode in emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode inside the Emacs sources.
> [ The main point here is that it should only affect the Emacs
> source code.  ]

Yes, this bug is about the dir-locals file.

> So feel free to change it any way you like.  You can even have
> a commit-fight-fest where people keep changing it back and forth, if
> you like.

Sounds fun!

I haven't seen much of support for the c-mode side in this issue, so 
guess I'll limit the fight-fest to the emast-lisp-mode value, for now.

Anyone interested in the C side of this is welcome to join.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Thu, 16 Apr 2015 20:16:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #20 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50;
 Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for
 emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 16:15:54 -0400
I've long since done what seems to me to be the sensible thing:

  use a mode-hook to set indent-tabs-mode to whatever the (pre-existing)
  file I'm editing seems to use.

I won't claim it's always right (for those files where the indentation
is mixed), but it's worked pretty well for me.

The fact that indent-tabs-mode has been added to dir-locals now breaks
this, since dir-locals take precedence over mode hooks (bug#1986).

So for me, this change increases the likelihood of me committing stuff
that does not match the existing indentation style. Ie, adding it to
dir-locals without untabifying every file (something which has already
been rejected) has made things worse IMO.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Thu, 16 Apr 2015 21:00:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #23 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 23:59:20 +0300
On 04/16/2015 11:15 PM, Glenn Morris wrote:
>
> I've long since done what seems to me to be the sensible thing:
>
>    use a mode-hook to set indent-tabs-mode to whatever the (pre-existing)
>    file I'm editing seems to use.
>
> I won't claim it's always right (for those files where the indentation
> is mixed), but it's worked pretty well for me.

That sounds like a great approach, but not for this case.

> The fact that indent-tabs-mode has been added to dir-locals now breaks
> this, since dir-locals take precedence over mode hooks (bug#1986).

Why is that a problem? If dir-locals take precedence, then the result 
will be that your commits won't use tabs, except in certain subprojects 
like gnus or erc, which have set file-local vars differently.

That's the original intent behind this proposal: to converge all .el 
files to one indentation style, eventually.

> So for me, this change increases the likelihood of me committing stuff
> that does not match the existing indentation style. Ie, adding it to
> dir-locals without untabifying every file (something which has already
> been rejected) has made things worse IMO.

You seen to consider the presence of different indentation styles in any 
specific file to be the main problem. I disagree: most files already 
contain both styles, and having different styles within the project is 
not much better.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Thu, 16 Apr 2015 21:31:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #26 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50;
 Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for
 emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Thu, 16 Apr 2015 17:30:44 -0400
> I've long since done what seems to me to be the sensible thing:
>   use a mode-hook to set indent-tabs-mode to whatever the (pre-existing)
>   file I'm editing seems to use.

Sounds like a good approach.  We could do that in prog-mode.

> So for me, this change increases the likelihood of me committing stuff
> that does not match the existing indentation style. Ie, adding it to
> dir-locals without untabifying every file (something which has already
> been rejected) has made things worse IMO.

My impression is that most Emacs's lisp files already have a mix anyway,
and I don't think that's a serious problem.


        Stefan




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Wed, 15 Jan 2020 05:18:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #29 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:17:03 +0100
Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> writes:

>> But yes, I personally couldn't care less about the value of
>> indent-tabs-mode in emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode inside the Emacs sources.
>> [ The main point here is that it should only affect the Emacs
>> source code.  ]
>
> Yes, this bug is about the dir-locals file.
>
>> So feel free to change it any way you like.  You can even have
>> a commit-fight-fest where people keep changing it back and forth, if
>> you like.
>
> Sounds fun!
>
> I haven't seen much of support for the c-mode side in this issue, so guess I'll
> limit the fight-fest to the emast-lisp-mode value, for now.

I see in emacs/.dir-locals.el the following line:

 (emacs-lisp-mode . ((indent-tabs-mode . nil)

So that part of this issue has already been done.

> Anyone interested in the C side of this is welcome to join.

Does anyone object to adding the same setting as above for c-mode?
If yes, I suggest to leave things as is and close the bug.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:22:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #32 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>,
 Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 09:21:25 +0100
>>>>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:17:03 +0100, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> said:
    >> Anyone interested in the C side of this is welcome to join.

    Stefan> Does anyone object to adding the same setting as above for c-mode?
    Stefan> If yes, I suggest to leave things as is and close the bug.

At the risk of inflaming the discussions: Iʼm strongly in favour of
having indent-tabs-mode set to nil for Emacs' sources.

Robert




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Wed, 15 Jan 2020 16:21:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #35 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50;
 Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for
 emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:20:32 +0200
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 06:17:03 +0100
> Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I see in emacs/.dir-locals.el the following line:
> 
>  (emacs-lisp-mode . ((indent-tabs-mode . nil)
> 
> So that part of this issue has already been done.
> 
> > Anyone interested in the C side of this is welcome to join.
> 
> Does anyone object to adding the same setting as above for c-mode?

What, use only spaces in C sources?  Please don't.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Wed, 15 Jan 2020 18:13:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #38 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: dgutov <at> yandex.ru, monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca, 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:12:03 +0100
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Does anyone object to adding the same setting as above for c-mode?
>
> What, use only spaces in C sources?  Please don't.

OK.  So how about setting indent-tabs-mode to t instead?

I prefer spaces myself, but I guess any convention is better than no
convention at all?  Or should we just leave this alone?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Thu, 16 Jan 2020 09:48:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #41 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, dgutov <at> yandex.ru, monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca,
 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 10:46:50 +0100
>>>>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2020 19:12:03 +0100, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> said:

    Stefan> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
    >>> Does anyone object to adding the same setting as above for c-mode?
    >> 
    >> What, use only spaces in C sources?  Please don't.

    Stefan> OK.  So how about setting indent-tabs-mode to t instead?

    Stefan> I prefer spaces myself, but I guess any convention is better than no
    Stefan> convention at all?  Or should we just leave this alone?

If we canʼt agree on a convention, then we should not enforce one =>
leave this alone.

Robert




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#20323; Package emacs. (Thu, 16 Jan 2020 13:39:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #44 received at 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 20323 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50; Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set
 indent-tabs-mode to nil for emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2020 14:38:17 +0100
Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com> writes:

> If we canʼt agree on a convention, then we should not enforce one =>
> leave this alone.

OK.  In that case, I don't think there is anything more to do here.
If no one objects within a week or two, I will close this bug.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




Reply sent to Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>:
You have taken responsibility. (Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:07:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Notification sent to Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru>:
bug acknowledged by developer. (Fri, 28 Feb 2020 23:07:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #49 received at 20323-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 20323-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca, dgutov <at> yandex.ru
Subject: Re: bug#20323: 25.0.50;
 Emacs's .dir-locals.el should set indent-tabs-mode to nil for
 emacs-lisp-mode and c-mode
Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 00:06:23 +0100
Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> If we canʼt agree on a convention, then we should not enforce one =>
>> leave this alone.
>
> OK.  In that case, I don't think there is anything more to do here.
> If no one objects within a week or two, I will close this bug.

No objections within 6 weeks, so I'm closing the bug now.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs <at> gnu.org> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Sat, 28 Mar 2020 11:24:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

This bug report was last modified 4 years and 1 day ago.

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