GNU bug report logs - #20583
calendar-absolute-from-gregorian

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Package: emacs; Severity: minor; Reported by: Nicholas Strauss <nicholas.strauss@HIDDEN>; Keywords: notabug wontfix; dated Fri, 15 May 2015 04:21:03 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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Subject: Re: bug#20583: calendar-absolute-from-gregorian
From: Nicholas Strauss <nicholas.strauss@HIDDEN>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
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--001a11c2597ccda0e40516d58e8a
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

Corrected comments to calendar-julianday-from-proleptic-gregorian
and cond for year 1582.
File requires calendar.el

Nick

On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Nicholas Strauss
<nicholas.strauss@HIDDEN> wrote:
> There are other day number systems more common than the  emacs
> "absolute" day number --
> the "astro" or Julian day number and the proleptic Gregorian system
> used by sqlite3
> e.g. select julianday("-4713-11-24").
> cal-julian.el:alendar-astro-to-absolute refers to  "astro".
> Proleptic Gregorian day 0 = November 24, 4714 BC while "astro" day 0 =
>  January 1, 4713 BC.
> I'm attaching julian.lisp which has calendar-correlate-from-date and
> calendar-correlate-from-julianday
> may help with days before 1582. These are based on Peter
> Duffett-Smiths calculations.

--001a11c2597ccda0e40516d58e8a
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--001a11c2597ccda0e40516d58e8a--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#20583; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 20583 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#20583: calendar-absolute-from-gregorian
From: Nicholas Strauss <nicholas.strauss@HIDDEN>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
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--089e0115fe245a8e960516ad6d19
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

There are other day number systems more common than the  emacs
"absolute" day number --
the "astro" or Julian day number and the proleptic Gregorian system
used by sqlite3
e.g. select julianday("-4713-11-24").
cal-julian.el:alendar-astro-to-absolute refers to  "astro".
Proleptic Gregorian day 0 = November 24, 4714 BC while "astro" day 0 =
 January 1, 4713 BC.
I'm attaching julian.lisp which has calendar-correlate-from-date and
calendar-correlate-from-julianday
may help with days before 1582. These are based on Peter
Duffett-Smiths calculations.

--089e0115fe245a8e960516ad6d19
Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="julian.lisp"
Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="julian.lisp"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
X-Attachment-Id: f_i9zrnoh30

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--089e0115fe245a8e960516ad6d19--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#20583; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 20583 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Fri, 15 May 2015 18:48:02 -0700
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Subject: Re: bug#20583: calendar-absolute-from-gregorian
From: Nicholas Strauss <nicholas.strauss@HIDDEN>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN>
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Hi Glenn,

The real point here is that Calendar Systems are instruments and as
subject are subject to error (Think like an engineer!). The real world
is messy -- Pope Gregory abolished some days, and various countries
took their time to jump on the band wagon.

I think what Reingold is/was trying to do was to use "absolute" as an
internal reference format -- a primary key -- that would correlate all the
other calendars.

there are other "absolute" choices for internal references.
Peter Duffett-Smith took a different approach -- he counts 2415020
days from January 1, 4713 BC until the 1900 epoch, January 0.5, 1900.

This crops up in sqlite3 calculations for date() and also common
javascript formulas.

I am still researching this.

If our civilization lasts for any appreciable time, having a consistent
calendar will be crucial for keeping a consistent history.
I think this helps why I am stressing the astronomy. If an Aztec calendar
records an eclipse on a certain day, that's pretty much it.

Nick


On Fri, May 15, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN> wrote:
> Nicholas Strauss wrote:
>
>> Why does (calendar-absolute-from-gregorian '(10 10 1582))
>> return 577731?
>> (calendar-generate '(10 1582)) is another example of this
>> error.
>
> It's behaving as designed. It's a utility function that operates on the
> basis that today's calendar system is valid for all time. It's not meant
> as literally historically accurate, and I think trying to make it so (by
> introducing discontinuities at certain dates) would be a mistake. See eg
> thread at:
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-07/msg01008.html




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#20583; Package emacs. Full text available.
Added tag(s) notabug and wontfix. Request was from Glenn Morris <rgm@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

Message received at 20583 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#20583: calendar-absolute-from-gregorian
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Nicholas Strauss wrote:

> Why does (calendar-absolute-from-gregorian '(10 10 1582))
> return 577731?
> (calendar-generate '(10 1582)) is another example of this
> error.

It's behaving as designed. It's a utility function that operates on the
basis that today's calendar system is valid for all time. It's not meant
as literally historically accurate, and I think trying to make it so (by
introducing discontinuities at certain dates) would be a mistake. See eg
thread at:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-07/msg01008.html




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#20583; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: calendar-absolute-from-gregorian
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Hi Bug Emacs,

Why does (calendar-absolute-from-gregorian '(10 10 1582))
return 577731?
(calendar-generate '(10 1582)) is another example of this
error.

There are no Gregorian dates from 5 - 15 October 1582.
Pope Gregory declared this.

Hence, ALL absolute day numbers in calendar before 1582
are probably wrong. So using emacs for historical computations
is bogus.

I will work on writing calendar-absolute-from-gregorian and
calendar-gregorian-from-absolute to patch this error.

Let me know if this sounds OK.

nick
ncs@HIDDEN




Acknowledgement sent to Nicholas Strauss <nicholas.strauss@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#20583; Package emacs. Full text available.
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