GNU bug report logs - #21959
[25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q

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Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>; dated Thu, 19 Nov 2015 12:27:03 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 17:54:17 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q
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> From: Random832 <random832@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 14:43:32 +0000 (UTC)
> 
> On 2015-11-20, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> > AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> > customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> > your ~/.emacs first.
> 
> Why can't it "load" it (into a "saved but not set" state, or where the default
> value is considered "set and not saved") without _applying_ the settings, by
> simply reading from your .emacs when you first run customize?

Patches welcome.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q
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On 2015-11-20, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> wrote:
> AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> your ~/.emacs first.

Why can't it "load" it (into a "saved but not set" state, or where the default
value is considered "set and not saved") without _applying_ the settings, by
simply reading from your .emacs when you first run customize?





Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:08:28 +0200
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q
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> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:53:26 +0100
> From: Andreas R=F6hler <andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>
> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
>=20
> Emacs was started -Q, but init-file and custom-file loaded manually=
=20
> afterwards.

What is the value of user-init-file?  If it's nil, Emacs doesn't know
you loaded your init-file.





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bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q
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> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 10:05:03 +0100
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>
> CC: 21959 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> >> What is the rational for theses connection?
> > AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> > customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> > your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
> > just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
> > whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
> > there.
> 
> Hmm, editing a file doesn't require to load it before.

But this isn't editing.  AFAIU, Customize creates a
'custom-set-variables' section from internal Lisp data structures,
while distinguishing changes done by the user from other kinds of
changes, like those done by original ~/.emacs settings.

> While understanding it's easier to write a list down which was loaded:
> Here it must open the custom-file as plain-text and to replace the 
> section in question - if any.

I don't think it's that simple, see above; but I might be wrong.

> > Patches welcome.
> >
> 
> [ ... ]
> 
> Would the disclaimer signed be sufficient WRT copyright-issues?

IANAL, sorry.  I hope someone else will be able to answer that.




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  On 20.11.2015 10:05, Andreas Röhler wrote:
>  On 20.11.2015 09:24, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>>> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:24:23 +0100
>>> From: Andreas Röhler<andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>
>>> CC: 21959 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>>
>>>>        If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
>>>>     (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your 
>>>> customizations
>>>>     in your initialization file.  This is because saving 
>>>> customizations
>>>>     from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations 
>>>> you
>>>>     might have on your initialization file.
>>>>
>>> Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
>>> What is the rational for theses connection?
>> AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
>> customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
>> your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
>> just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
>> whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
>> there.
>

Emacs was started -Q, but init-file and custom-file loaded manually 
afterwards.





Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.

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  On 20.11.2015 09:24, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:24:23 +0100
>> From: Andreas Röhler<andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>
>> CC: 21959 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>>
>>>        If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
>>>     (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
>>>     in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
>>>     from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
>>>     might have on your initialization file.
>>>
>> Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
>> What is the rational for theses connection?
> AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
> customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
> your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
> just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
> whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
> there.

Hmm, editing a file doesn't require to load it before.

While understanding it's easier to write a list down which was loaded:
Here it must open the custom-file as plain-text and to replace the 
section in question - if any.


> Patches welcome.
>

[ ... ]

Would the disclaimer signed be sufficient WRT copyright-issues?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.

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> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 08:24:23 +0100
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>
> CC: 21959 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> >       If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
> >    (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
> >    in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
> >    from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
> >    might have on your initialization file.
> >
> 
> Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
> What is the rational for theses connection?

AFAIU, Customize cannot _update_ your settings (which might include
customizations of more than one feature) without _loading_ them from
your ~/.emacs first.  All it can do is to write out the few (usually,
just one) customizations you did in the "emacs -Q" session, replacing
whatever was there before.  This effectively "wipes out" what you had
there.

> What about having these separated and a command "clear customizations"?

Not sure how that would help; see above.

I think a way forward would be to teach Customize to _add_
customizations rather than _replace_ them.  If that's possible.
Patches welcome.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.

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  On 19.11.2015 16:55, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:27:29 +0100
>> From: Andreas Röhler<andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>
>>
>> A way around is to start with -Q and load init-file interactively.
>> However then saving options via customize isn't possible, which seems a bug.
> No, it's a deliberate feature.  From the Emacs manual:
>
>       If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
>    (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
>    in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
>    from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
>    might have on your initialization file.
>

Hmm, maybe not link saving and wiping out?
What is the rational for theses connection?

What about having these separated and a command "clear customizations"?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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Subject: Re: bug#21959: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q
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> Date: Thu, 19 Nov 2015 13:27:29 +0100
> From: Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>
> 
> A way around is to start with -Q and load init-file interactively.
> However then saving options via customize isn't possible, which seems a bug.

No, it's a deliberate feature.  From the Emacs manual:

     If Emacs was invoked with the `-q' or `--no-init-file' options
  (*note Initial Options::), it will not let you save your customizations
  in your initialization file.  This is because saving customizations
  from such a session would wipe out all the other customizations you
  might have on your initialization file.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: [25.1.50.1] No way to save customization from emacs -Q
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  GNU Emacs 25.1.50.1 (i686-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.24.25) of 
2015-11-16

Emacs built from source at my

Debian 3.16.7-ckt11-1+deb8u5 (2015-10-09) i686 GNU/Linux

would start with errors due to Debian specific stuff probably.

A way around is to start with -Q and load init-file interactively.
However then saving options via customize isn't possible, which seems a bug.

Thanks,

Andreas






Acknowledgement sent to Andreas Röhler <andreas.roehler@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#21959; Package emacs. Full text available.
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