GNU bug report logs - #22866
24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Shiyao Ma <i <at> introo.me>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:23:58 +0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

For the function `delete-char'.
'C-h S' takes me to:
(emacs)Top > Killing > Deletion and Killing > Deletion

However, it should go to:
(elisp)Top > Text > Deletion


Regards.







In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (x86_64-pc-linux-gnu)
 of 2015-10-25 on trouble, modified by Debian
System Description:    Debian GNU/Linux testing (stretch)

Configured using:
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Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
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Recent messages:
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Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50autoconf.el (source)...done
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50cmake-data.el (source)...done
Loading /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50python-docutils.el (source)...done
Turn on helm-projectile key bindings
Loading /home/introom/.emacs.d/cache/helm-adaptive-history...done
Loading term/xterm...done
6am is refreshing
C-c C-x C-g is undefined

Load-path shadows:
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[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #8 received at 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Shiyao Ma <i <at> introo.me>, 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#22866: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 06:52:53 -0800 (PST)

> For the function `delete-char'.  'C-h S' takes me to:
> (emacs)Top > Killing > Deletion and Killing > Deletion 
> However, it should go to: (elisp)Top > Text > Deletion

Why do you think so?  This is a user command, not just an
Elisp function.  An Emacs user looking for information about
it interactively will expect to go to its description in the
Emacs manual.  If we have to choose one or the other, we
should, I think, favor user help, especially for a command.

That said... (1) Maybe we could cross-reference the one from
the other manual?  (2) It might be good if `C-h S' popped
up a buffer of links to references in both manuals.  (3) It
would be good if *Help* output from `C-h f' and `C-h k'
provided links to the manuals (both).

----

FWIW, my library `help-fns+.el' does provide references to
the manuals in the output of help commands such as `C-h f' and
`C-h k'.  But it does not provide such links for `C-h S'.

If you click the link on `manuals' in the `*Help*' output:
"For more information check the manuals." then you get this
Info buffer, where the left column has links to the nodes
listed in the right column:

File: *Indexed*,  Node: Index for `delete-char',  Up: Top

Index Matches

Index entries that match `delete-char':

* Menu:

* delete-char [elisp]:            (elisp)Deletion.
* delete-char [emacs]:            (emacs)Deletion.

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/help-fns%2b.el

Message #11 received at 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: i <at> introo.me, 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22866: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 18:56:36 +0200

> Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 06:52:53 -0800 (PST)
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> 
> > For the function `delete-char'.  'C-h S' takes me to:
> > (emacs)Top > Killing > Deletion and Killing > Deletion 
> > However, it should go to: (elisp)Top > Text > Deletion
> 
> Why do you think so?  This is a user command, not just an
> Elisp function.  An Emacs user looking for information about
> it interactively will expect to go to its description in the
> Emacs manual.  If we have to choose one or the other, we
> should, I think, favor user help, especially for a command.
> 
> That said... (1) Maybe we could cross-reference the one from
> the other manual?  (2) It might be good if `C-h S' popped
> up a buffer of links to references in both manuals.  (3) It
> would be good if *Help* output from `C-h f' and `C-h k'
> provided links to the manuals (both).

I think the way to solve this is to have a new Help command that would
specifically look up a function name in the ELisp manual.

Message #14 received at 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: i <at> introo.me, 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#22866: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 09:18:47 -0800 (PST)

> > > For the function `delete-char'.  'C-h S' takes me to:
> > > (emacs)Top > Killing > Deletion and Killing > Deletion
> > > However, it should go to: (elisp)Top > Text > Deletion
> >
> > Why do you think so?  This is a user command, not just an
> > Elisp function.  An Emacs user looking for information about
> > it interactively will expect to go to its description in the
> > Emacs manual.  If we have to choose one or the other, we
> > should, I think, favor user help, especially for a command.
> >
> > That said... (1) Maybe we could cross-reference the one from
> > the other manual?  (2) It might be good if `C-h S' popped
> > up a buffer of links to references in both manuals.  (3) It
> > would be good if *Help* output from `C-h f' and `C-h k'
> > provided links to the manuals (both).
> 
> I think the way to solve this is to have a new Help command that
> would specifically look up a function name in the ELisp manual.

That too would work.

If someone wanted references to both manuals, it would still be
helpful if that new command, as well as `C-h S', interpreted
certain prefix-arg values as requesting that, and showed links
to them (e.g., as I described).

For example:

* A non-negative prefix arg could do as now: query for the mode.
* A non-positive prefix arg could show links to both manuals.

(So a zero arg would do both.)

Message #17 received at 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: i <at> introo.me, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>, 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22866: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 15:09:00 -0800

>>>>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I think the way to solve this is to have a new Help command that would
> specifically look up a function name in the ELisp manual.

Just FYI, the info-look module can be configured to also look up things in the
elisp manual. I've been using it to do this for years now, via
`info-lookup-symbol'. And it's already part of Emacs, so we'd just need to
integrate by default.

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Message #20 received at 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Shiyao Ma <i <at> introo.me>
To: John Wiegley <johnw <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>,
 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22866: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:44:57 +0800

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

On 2 March 2016 at 07:09, John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Just FYI, the info-look module can be configured to also look up things in
> the
> elisp manual. I've been using it to do this for years now, via
> `info-lookup-symbol'. And it's already part of Emacs, so we'd just need to
> integrate by default.
>
>
>
It does look up symbols under elisp manual from time to time. The problem
here is for functions like `delete-char', both emacs manual and elisp
manual contain it and  info-lookup-symbol  prefers the latter under both
emacs-lisp-mode and lisp-mode.

Possible to tell info-lookup-symbol prefer elisp manual ?


Regards.



-- 

吾輩は猫である。ホームーページはhttps://introo.me <http://introo.me>。

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #23 received at 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: John Wiegley <jwiegley <at> gmail.com>
To: Shiyao Ma <i <at> introo.me>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>,
 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22866: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 14:28:31 -0800

>>>>> Shiyao Ma <i <at> introo.me> writes:

> It does look up symbols under elisp manual from time to time. The problem
> here is for functions like `delete-char', both emacs manual and elisp manual
> contain it and info-lookup-symbol prefers the latter under both
> emacs-lisp-mode and lisp-mode.

> Possible to tell info-lookup-symbol prefer elisp manual ?

There is an extension package, Info-lookmore, which will let you browse
multiple manuals for a symbol, if I remember correctly...

-- 
John Wiegley                  GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F
http://newartisans.com                          60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2

Message #26 received at 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: i <at> introo.me, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>, 22866 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#22866: 24.5; 'C-h S' leads to inaccurate result
Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 13:00:22 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I think the way to solve this is to have a new Help command that would
> specifically look up a function name in the ELisp manual.

I've now added this to Emacs 29, bound to `I'.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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