GNU bug report logs - #23130
25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names

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Package: emacs; Severity: minor; Reported by: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>; dated Sun, 27 Mar 2016 23:26:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
 <87vb47gkdx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <3e3ee3f1-41ba-4429-bfdc-c795c62844c0@default>
 <87h9fqhe5l.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <e4a50973-9e8b-4475-aaf9-763c649a5228@default>
 <87zitifx48.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <7a116182-3de6-4acc-8844-c2e100188fa1@default>
 <87pouefuqg.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <a0723b9e-0d8a-4f2b-9fcd-ffd02b0a9090@default>
X-Yow: While my BRAINPAN is being refused service in BURGER KING,
 Jesuit priests are DATING CAREER DIPLOMATS!!
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 19:18:31 +0200
In-Reply-To: <a0723b9e-0d8a-4f2b-9fcd-ffd02b0a9090@default> (Drew Adams's
 message of "Mon, 28 Mar 2016 10:08:52 -0700 (PDT)")
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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

>> >> > Show it as Lisp when showing Lisp.  Show it as a symbol name, as
>> >> > is the Emacs convention, in help text.  And in that case, show it
>> >> > enclosed in `...'.
>> >>
>> >> How will that help in case of weird names?
>> >
>> > You can figure it out, I'm sure...
>> 
>> So why do you want to make things worse?
>
> So why do keep trolling?

I don't.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 10:08:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
 <87vb47gkdx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <3e3ee3f1-41ba-4429-bfdc-c795c62844c0@default>
 <87h9fqhe5l.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <e4a50973-9e8b-4475-aaf9-763c649a5228@default>
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 <7a116182-3de6-4acc-8844-c2e100188fa1@default>
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> >> > Show it as Lisp when showing Lisp.  Show it as a symbol name, as
> >> > is the Emacs convention, in help text.  And in that case, show it
> >> > enclosed in `...'.
> >>
> >> How will that help in case of weird names?
> >
> > You can figure it out, I'm sure...
>=20
> So why do you want to make things worse?

So why do keep trolling?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
 <87vb47gkdx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <3e3ee3f1-41ba-4429-bfdc-c795c62844c0@default>
 <87h9fqhe5l.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <e4a50973-9e8b-4475-aaf9-763c649a5228@default>
 <87zitifx48.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <7a116182-3de6-4acc-8844-c2e100188fa1@default>
X-Yow: Tex SEX!  The HOME of WHEELS!  The dripping of COFFEE!!  Take me
 to Minnesota but don't EMBARRASS me!!
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 18:11:19 +0200
In-Reply-To: <7a116182-3de6-4acc-8844-c2e100188fa1@default> (Drew Adams's
 message of "Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:23:51 -0700 (PDT)")
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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

>> > Show it as Lisp when showing Lisp.  Show it as a symbol name, as
>> > is the Emacs convention, in help text.  And in that case, show it
>> > enclosed in `...'.
>> 
>> How will that help in case of weird names?
>
> You can figure it out, I'm sure...

So why do you want to make things worse?

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:23:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
 <87vb47gkdx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <3e3ee3f1-41ba-4429-bfdc-c795c62844c0@default>
 <87h9fqhe5l.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <e4a50973-9e8b-4475-aaf9-763c649a5228@default>
 <87zitifx48.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> > Show it as Lisp when showing Lisp.  Show it as a symbol name, as
> > is the Emacs convention, in help text.  And in that case, show it
> > enclosed in `...'.
>=20
> How will that help in case of weird names?

You can figure it out, I'm sure...




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
 <87vb47gkdx.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <3e3ee3f1-41ba-4429-bfdc-c795c62844c0@default>
 <87h9fqhe5l.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <e4a50973-9e8b-4475-aaf9-763c649a5228@default>
X-Yow: Yow!  Am I in Milwaukee?
Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 17:19:51 +0200
In-Reply-To: <e4a50973-9e8b-4475-aaf9-763c649a5228@default> (Drew Adams's
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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

> Show it as Lisp when showing Lisp.  Show it as a symbol name, as
> is the Emacs convention, in help text.  And in that case, show it
> enclosed in `...'.

How will that help in case of weird names?

Andreas.

-- 
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Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
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> >> > The name of the symbol is "foo.", not "foo\.".
> >>
> >> Both refer to the same symbol, as does "\foo.".
> >
> > Not as `symbol-name' values, they don't.
>=20
> It's showing a symbol, not the result of calling symbol-name on it.

Yes, we know.

> > The point is to show the symbol _name_, and to do so in a
> > way that is clear to anyone.
>=20
> The point is to show a symbol, unambigously.

The point of this bug report is that the symbol's name should be
shown clearly.  The symbol is already printed using prin1 in the
signature: (foo\.)

Show it as Lisp when showing Lisp.  Show it as a symbol name, as
is the Emacs convention, in help text.  And in that case, show it
enclosed in `...'.

> >> > Or better yet, to remove all ambiguity, even for characters
> >> > such as SPC in the function name, enclose the name in `...':
> >>
> >> The name as printed is already unambigous.
> >
> > "bar\ is a Lisp function." is not only unclear; it is incorrect.
>=20
> Of course it's incorrect, but describe-function will never generate
> that.

Why don't you read the bug report and try the recipe for yourself,
starting with `emacs -Q'?  That's exactly what `describe-funcction'
"generates":

(defun bar\  () (message "BARRRR"))

`C-h f RET' with point on "bar\ ":

  bar\ is a Lisp function.

  (bar\ )

  Not documented.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

>> > The name of the symbol is "foo.", not "foo\.".
>> 
>> Both refer to the same symbol, as does "\foo.".
>
> Not as `symbol-name' values, they don't.

It's showing a symbol, not the result of calling symbol-name on it.

> The point is to show the symbol _name_, and to do so in a
> way that is clear to anyone.

The point is to show a symbol, unambigously.

>> > Or better yet, to remove all ambiguity, even for characters
>> > such as SPC in the function name, enclose the name in `...':
>> 
>> The name as printed is already unambigous.
>
> "bar\ is a Lisp function." is not only unclear; it is incorrect.

Of course it's incorrect, but describe-function will never generate
that.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 06:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
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> > The name of the symbol is "foo.", not "foo\.".
>=20
> Both refer to the same symbol, as does "\foo.".

Not as `symbol-name' values, they don't.

The point is to show the symbol _name_, and to do so in a
way that is clear to anyone.

> > Or better yet, to remove all ambiguity, even for characters
> > such as SPC in the function name, enclose the name in `...':
>=20
> The name as printed is already unambigous.

"bar\ is a Lisp function." is not only unclear; it is incorrect.

And if you want to be pedantic, and you think there is already
no room for ambiguity, substitute "possible confusion".  Emacs
is not being as clear as it could be, and that is especially
important for someone new to Emacs and Emacs Lisp.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 23130 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#23130: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
References: <5f0de05c-33e6-4855-8603-19c0bd0c4c4e@default>
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Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> writes:

> The name of the symbol is "foo.", not "foo\.".

Both refer to the same symbol, as does "\foo.".

> Or better yet, to remove all ambiguity, even for characters such as SPC
> in the function name, enclose the name in `...':

The name as printed is already unambigous.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@HIDDEN
GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 16:25:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
Subject: 25.1.50; `C-h f' etc.: escaping in symbol names
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(defun foo. () (message "FOOOOOO"))

Put point somewhere on the name `foo.'.
`C-h f'
You see this message: Describe function (default foo.):
                                                 ^^^^

Hit `RET'.  You see this output in *Help*:

 foo\. is a Lisp function.

 (foo\.)

Not sure what others might think of this.  The name of the symbol is
"foo.", not "foo\.".  This is correctly reflected in the prompt.

I'm thinking it should also be reflected in the first line of the *Help*
output: "foo. is a Lisp function."

Or better yet, to remove all ambiguity, even for characters such as SPC
in the function name, enclose the name in `...':

(defun bar\  () (message "BARRRR"))

`C-h f'
Describe function (default bar ): RET

 bar\ is a Lisp function.

 (bar\ )

Note that the first line here is not even correct - it should at least
have another SPC char after the `\ '.  The way it is written now, it
suggests that the name is `bar\', i.e., that the symbol is bar\\.

I think it would be better to show something like this:

 `foo.' is a Lisp function.

 (foo\.)

 `bar ' is a Lisp function.

 (bar\ )

And it would be better to use `...' also in the prompt:

 Describe function (default `foo.'):
 Describe function (default `bar '):

The same thing holds for other help commands (`describe-variable',
`describe-mode', `describe-face', etc.).  The first line of help output
gives the symbol's name.  At least it should be enclosed in `...'.  And
perhaps when the name is indicated, as opposed to the symbol itself,
such chars should not be escaped.


In GNU Emacs 25.1.50.1 (i686-pc-mingw32)
 of 2015-12-10
Repository revision: 6148555ee5a3d0139ae517803718b3e0357933c7
Windowing system distributor 'Microsoft Corp.', version 6.1.7601
Configured using:
 'configure --prefix=3D/c/Devel/emacs/snapshot/trunk --enable-checking=3Dye=
s
 --enable-check-lisp-object-type --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=3D-Og
 -ggdb3' LDFLAGS=3D-Lc:/Devel/emacs/lib 'CPPFLAGS=3D-DGC_MCHECK=3D1
 -Ic:/Devel/emacs/include''




Acknowledgement sent to Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#23130; Package emacs. Full text available.
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