GNU bug report logs - #24070
LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
To: bug-auctex <at> gnu.org
Subject: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 13:11:05 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Whenever I load a .tex file, LaTeX-mode doesn't load and I get the error:

File mode specification error: (void-function TeX-latex-mode)

This happens when the only line in my .emacs is (load "auctex.el" nil t t)
I have verified this bug on two separate Linux systems using Emacs 24.4.1.
I have only had this problem with auctex 11.89.4 (which I installed from
http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/ using the emacs package manager).
I have also tested this with manually installed versions of 11.89 and 11.88
(which i installed from https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/auctex/) and both of
these versions work fine.

Caleb

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #8 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 22:39:31 +0200

Hi Caleb,

2016-07-25 21:11 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> Whenever I load a .tex file, LaTeX-mode doesn't load and I get the error:
>
> File mode specification error: (void-function TeX-latex-mode)
>
> This happens when the only line in my .emacs is (load "auctex.el" nil t t)
> I have verified this bug on two separate Linux systems using Emacs 24.4.1.
> I have only had this problem with auctex 11.89.4 (which I installed from
> http://elpa.gnu.org/packages/ using the emacs package manager).
> I have also tested this with manually installed versions of 11.89 and 11.88
> (which i installed from https://ftp.gnu.org/pub/gnu/auctex/) and both of
> these versions work fine.

After you install AUCTeX from ELPA you must *not* add anything to your
init file.  This is explained also in the AUCTeX manual:
https://www.gnu.org/software/auctex/manual/auctex.html#Installation
after the installation you're done.

Please, remove the line "(load "auctex.el" nil t t)" and report back
if this solves your problem.

Bye,
Mosè

Message #11 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>, 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 01:32:01 +0200

Please, don't remove 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org from recipients list, hit
the "reply to all" button when sending messages to mailing lists.

2016-07-26 1:20 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> I removed AUCTeX and reinstalled via package.el. Still, when i open a .tex
> file, it uses emacs' default TeX-mode.

Can you see in your "*Messages*" buffer some message indicating problems?

> This is still only a problem that I've had with 11.89.4, so I don't know why
> this newest version would be different.

Did you upgrade the AUCTeX package in ELPA from an earlier version or
this was your first installation?  There has been no change regarding
installation that I know of, and I just tried to install AUCTeX via
ELPA and works just fine for me, without the need to add anything to
the init file.

Can someone please try and install AUCTeX from ELPA and report if
experience the same problem as Caleb?

Bye,
Mosè

> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> 2016-07-25 23:35 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
>> > If I remove that line, I am unable to enter Auctex's LaTeX mode, and it
>> > always goes to the default emacs TeX mode
>>
>> Ok, that's not how it's supposed to work.  Can you please remove
>> AUCTeX and reinstall, without adding anything to your init file?
>>
>> Bye,
>> Mosè
>
>

Message #14 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
To: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Mon, 25 Jul 2016 18:39:00 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

This is not the first time I've installed AUCTeX via ELPA. I recently
installed it on a new computer, and that's where i noticed it failing. I
then upgraded AUCTex on my older computer, and after upgrading it I noticed
I had the same problems with the newest version.

There is nothing in my Messages buffer that makes me think there was any
attempt to load AucTeX. The only time i get a message in my messages buffer
is when i have the line "(load "auctex.el" nil t t)" in my init file.

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> Please, don't remove 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org from recipients list, hit
> the "reply to all" button when sending messages to mailing lists.
>
> 2016-07-26 1:20 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> > I removed AUCTeX and reinstalled via package.el. Still, when i open a
> .tex
> > file, it uses emacs' default TeX-mode.
>
> Can you see in your "*Messages*" buffer some message indicating problems?
>
> > This is still only a problem that I've had with 11.89.4, so I don't know
> why
> > this newest version would be different.
>
> Did you upgrade the AUCTeX package in ELPA from an earlier version or
> this was your first installation?  There has been no change regarding
> installation that I know of, and I just tried to install AUCTeX via
> ELPA and works just fine for me, without the need to add anything to
> the init file.
>
> Can someone please try and install AUCTeX from ELPA and report if
> experience the same problem as Caleb?
>
> Bye,
> Mosè
>
> > On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> 2016-07-25 23:35 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> >> > If I remove that line, I am unable to enter Auctex's LaTeX mode, and
> it
> >> > always goes to the default emacs TeX mode
> >>
> >> Ok, that's not how it's supposed to work.  Can you please remove
> >> AUCTeX and reinstall, without adding anything to your init file?
> >>
> >> Bye,
> >> Mosè
> >
> >
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #17 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 16:33:34 +0200

Hi Stefan,

do you have a clue of what may be the problem here:
https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=24070 ?

Bye,
Mosè

2016-07-26 2:39 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> This is not the first time I've installed AUCTeX via ELPA. I recently
> installed it on a new computer, and that's where i noticed it failing. I
> then upgraded AUCTex on my older computer, and after upgrading it I noticed
> I had the same problems with the newest version.
>
> There is nothing in my Messages buffer that makes me think there was any
> attempt to load AucTeX. The only time i get a message in my messages buffer
> is when i have the line "(load "auctex.el" nil t t)" in my init file.
>
> On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 5:32 PM, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>>
>> Please, don't remove 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org from recipients list, hit
>> the "reply to all" button when sending messages to mailing lists.
>>
>> 2016-07-26 1:20 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
>> > I removed AUCTeX and reinstalled via package.el. Still, when i open a
>> > .tex
>> > file, it uses emacs' default TeX-mode.
>>
>> Can you see in your "*Messages*" buffer some message indicating problems?
>>
>> > This is still only a problem that I've had with 11.89.4, so I don't know
>> > why
>> > this newest version would be different.
>>
>> Did you upgrade the AUCTeX package in ELPA from an earlier version or
>> this was your first installation?  There has been no change regarding
>> installation that I know of, and I just tried to install AUCTeX via
>> ELPA and works just fine for me, without the need to add anything to
>> the init file.
>>
>> Can someone please try and install AUCTeX from ELPA and report if
>> experience the same problem as Caleb?
>>
>> Bye,
>> Mosè
>>
>> > On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 3:39 PM, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> 2016-07-25 23:35 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
>> >> > If I remove that line, I am unable to enter Auctex's LaTeX mode, and
>> >> > it
>> >> > always goes to the default emacs TeX mode
>> >>
>> >> Ok, that's not how it's supposed to work.  Can you please remove
>> >> AUCTeX and reinstall, without adding anything to your init file?
>> >>
>> >> Bye,
>> >> Mosè
>> >
>> >
>
>

Message #20 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 10:42:08 -0400

> There is nothing in my Messages buffer that makes me think there was any
> attempt to load AucTeX. The only time i get a message in my messages buffer
> is when i have the line "(load "auctex.el" nil t t)" in my init file.

What happens if you do:

- remove your ~/.emacs file (or make it empty)
- start Emacs
- open a .tex file

Do you get AUCTeX's mode or do you get the default (tex-mode.el) mode or
do you get an error?  If you get an error, please enable "Options =>
Enter Debugger on Error" and show us the backtrace.

Also, please check `C-h v load-history` and see if there's
an auctex-autoloads.el file in there.


        Stefan

Message #23 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:11:01 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Thank you for the suggestions. When I removed my init.el file, AUCTeX's
mode loaded fine so I knew it must be a conflict somewhere else in my
init.el.

I had the following lines in my init.el to try to decrease my emacs startup
time (as emacs had been slow to load):

(setq package-enable-at-startup nil)
(package-initialize t)
(let ((default-directory "~/.emacs.d/elpa"))
  (normal-top-level-add-subdirs-to-load-path))

When I get rid of the first line, AUCTeX loads fine, so this fixes my
problem. (It turns out that first line really wasn't helping emacs start
that much quicker anyway).

Still, this workaround seem a little odd to me. First, It seems odd that I
can't start AUCTeX "when I want", i.e., by using the line (load "auctex.el"
nil t t), even though this worked for me in previous versions of auctex
(11.89 and 11.88). Second, it also seems a little odd that I can't do
something like (require 'auctex) or (use-package auctex), even though I can
load all my other 30+ packages that way. The concept of having nothing in
my .emacs and the package still being expected to work definitely confused
me at the beginning.

Regardless, this fixes my problem. Thank you very much for the help.



On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:

> > There is nothing in my Messages buffer that makes me think there was any
> > attempt to load AucTeX. The only time i get a message in my messages
> buffer
> > is when i have the line "(load "auctex.el" nil t t)" in my init file.
>
> What happens if you do:
>
> - remove your ~/.emacs file (or make it empty)
> - start Emacs
> - open a .tex file
>
> Do you get AUCTeX's mode or do you get the default (tex-mode.el) mode or
> do you get an error?  If you get an error, please enable "Options =>
> Enter Debugger on Error" and show us the backtrace.
>
> Also, please check `C-h v load-history` and see if there's
> an auctex-autoloads.el file in there.
>
>
>         Stefan
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #26 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 19:25:53 +0200

Hi Caleb,

2016-07-26 19:11 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> Thank you for the suggestions. When I removed my init.el file, AUCTeX's mode
> loaded fine so I knew it must be a conflict somewhere else in my init.el.
>
> I had the following lines in my init.el to try to decrease my emacs startup
> time (as emacs had been slow to load):
>
> (setq package-enable-at-startup nil)
> (package-initialize t)
> (let ((default-directory "~/.emacs.d/elpa"))
>   (normal-top-level-add-subdirs-to-load-path))
>
> When I get rid of the first line, AUCTeX loads fine, so this fixes my
> problem. (It turns out that first line really wasn't helping emacs start
> that much quicker anyway).

Good, then I'm going to close this ticket.

> Still, this workaround seem a little odd to me. First, It seems odd that I
> can't start AUCTeX "when I want", i.e., by using the line (load "auctex.el"
> nil t t), even though this worked for me in previous versions of auctex
> (11.89 and 11.88). Second, it also seems a little odd that I can't do
> something like (require 'auctex) or (use-package auctex), even though I can
> load all my other 30+ packages that way. The concept of having nothing in my
> .emacs and the package still being expected to work definitely confused me
> at the beginning.

You can't manually load AUCTeX (for what I know, it should have never
worked that way), but you can unload it before opening a *TeX file:

    (unload-feature 'tex-site)

Bye,
Mosè

Message #29 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>, auctex-devel <at> gnu.org
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:44:27 -0400

> Still, this workaround seem a little odd to me.  First, It seems odd that I
> can't start AUCTeX "when I want", i.e., by using the line (load "auctex.el"
> nil t t), even though this worked for me in previous versions of auctex
> (11.89 and 11.88).

Packaging in ELPA aims to follow the way packages bundled with Emacs are
handled, such that they're not "started" automatically, but they are
automatically setup so that you can "start" them by just invoking their
functionality (e.g. loading a .tex file).

> Second, it also seems a little odd that I can't do something like
> (require 'auctex) or (use-package auctex), even though I can load all
> my other 30+ packages that way.  The concept of having nothing in my
> .emacs and the package still being expected to work definitely
> confused me at the beginning.

The only standard/supported way to setup an ELPA package in general is
to load its <pkg>-autoloads.el file (that's what package-initialize does
usually).  In practice, from what you say, loading <pkg>.el tends to
work as well, but that's mostly an accident.

This said, AUCTeX has historically been enabled by (load "tex-site") or
(load "auctex"), so it would make sense for AUCTeX's package to support
this.  I thought it worked, but your bug-report shows that it doesn't.

The (untested) patch/hack below might help cases like yours.
I'm not sure if AUCTeX's maintainers want to go that route or would
prefer to just detect the case and emit a warning instead to try and
help people follow the standard installation method.


        Stefan


diff --git a/tex-site.el b/tex-site.el
index 44edc54..e59ebc7 100644
--- a/tex-site.el
+++ b/tex-site.el
@@ -1,6 +1,6 @@
 ;;; tex-site.el - Site specific variables.  Don't edit.
 
-;; Copyright (C) 2005, 2013 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+;; Copyright (C) 2005, 2013, 2016 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 ;;
 ;; completely rewritten.
 
@@ -39,7 +39,14 @@
 ;;; Code:
 
 (if (< emacs-major-version 21)
-  (error "AUCTeX requires Emacs 21 or later"))
+  (error "AUCTeX requires Emacs 21 or later")) ;FIXME: Really?
+
+(unless (or (fboundp 'TeX-modes-set)     ;Avoid inf-looping.
+            (fboundp 'TeX-tex-mode))     ;auctex-autoloads is not loaded.
+  ;; Try and support the case where someone loads tex-site.el or
+  ;; auctex.el directly, in the old way.
+  (provide 'tex-site)        ;Avoid (re)loading tex-site from auctex-autoloads.
+  (load "auctex-autoloads" 'noerror 'nomessage))
 
 ;; Define here in order for `M-x customize-group <RET> AUCTeX <RET>'
 ;; to work if the main AUCTeX files are not loaded yet.

Message #32 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:48:32 -0400

> You can't manually load AUCTeX (for what I know, it should have never
> worked that way), but you can unload it before opening a *TeX file:
>
>     (unload-feature 'tex-site)

Tho I'd recommend to customize the `TeX-modes' variable instead.
It's more fine-grained and it avoid `unload-feature' which I consider as
rather unreliable.


        Stefan

Message #35 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 00:35:55 +0200

Hi Stefan,

2016-07-26 19:44 GMT+02:00 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>:
>> Still, this workaround seem a little odd to me.  First, It seems odd that I
>> can't start AUCTeX "when I want", i.e., by using the line (load "auctex.el"
>> nil t t), even though this worked for me in previous versions of auctex
>> (11.89 and 11.88).
>
> Packaging in ELPA aims to follow the way packages bundled with Emacs are
> handled, such that they're not "started" automatically, but they are
> automatically setup so that you can "start" them by just invoking their
> functionality (e.g. loading a .tex file).
>
>> Second, it also seems a little odd that I can't do something like
>> (require 'auctex) or (use-package auctex), even though I can load all
>> my other 30+ packages that way.  The concept of having nothing in my
>> .emacs and the package still being expected to work definitely
>> confused me at the beginning.
>
> The only standard/supported way to setup an ELPA package in general is
> to load its <pkg>-autoloads.el file (that's what package-initialize does
> usually).  In practice, from what you say, loading <pkg>.el tends to
> work as well, but that's mostly an accident.
>
> This said, AUCTeX has historically been enabled by (load "tex-site") or
> (load "auctex"), so it would make sense for AUCTeX's package to support
> this.  I thought it worked, but your bug-report shows that it doesn't.
>
> The (untested) patch/hack below might help cases like yours.
> I'm not sure if AUCTeX's maintainers want to go that route or would
> prefer to just detect the case and emit a warning instead to try and
> help people follow the standard installation method.

Sorry, I don't quite understand the purpose of the patch.   Is it
intended for the ELPA version of AUCTeX or for the upstream package?
The fact that the package is against tex-site.el in ELPA makes me
think it's for the ELPA version of AUCTeX.  In that case, I don't have
any objection against trying to make the installation easier for users
(even if I don't know how the current installation method via ELPA can
be defined as "hard").

Bye,
Mosè

Message #38 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
To: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 23:14:24 -0400

> Sorry, I don't quite understand the purpose of the patch.   Is it
> intended for the ELPA version of AUCTeX or for the upstream package?

The ELPA version.

> The fact that the package is against tex-site.el in ELPA makes me
> think it's for the ELPA version of AUCTeX.  In that case, I don't have
> any objection against trying to make the installation easier for users
> (even if I don't know how the current installation method via ELPA can
> be defined as "hard").

The intent is not to make the installation easier.
It's to make it compatible with the old (require 'tex-site) method.
But as mentioned, maybe rather than make (require 'tex-site) work, it
might be preferable to emit a warning explaining that it's better to
just do nothing and let package-initialize do its job.


        Stefan

Message #41 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 13:34:57 +0200

Hi Stefan,

2016-07-27 5:14 GMT+02:00 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>:
> The intent is not to make the installation easier.
> It's to make it compatible with the old (require 'tex-site) method.
> But as mentioned, maybe rather than make (require 'tex-site) work, it
> might be preferable to emit a warning explaining that it's better to
> just do nothing and let package-initialize do its job.

Ok, I see.  Then I'd personally prefer to go by this route (do not use
`require' at all), but Tassilo is the main maintainer of AUCTeX on
ELPA.  Tassilo, what's your opinion on this?

Bye,
Mosè

Message #44 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
To: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 09:51:46 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Here are my two cents as a somewhat average emacs user (then I'll butt out
and let you all decide what you want to do).

I have around 30 packages that I install through ELPA. Since this is pretty
unwieldy, I have these all configured using the "use-package" macro, which
will automatically download missing packages and `require' them as
necessary. This makes installations on new machines really simple.

However, since AUCTeX doesn't have any (require 'auctex) line, use-package
will fail and AUCTeX won't install. That means that out of the 30 packages
I have, I am required to install AUCTeX manually. Now that I know that
AUCTeX will work when you just install it, it is indeed not too hard to get
AUCTeX working. However, my main hangup in this whole issue is that I
expected AUCTeX to work like all the other packages I use.

So it's not that AUCTeX is hard to install per se, it's just that it's
different than all the other 30 packages that I use. This, in my
experience, has always made AUCTeX confusing to me in the past.

Whatever you decided to do, thanks for all your work on this.

Caleb


On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 5:34 AM, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> Hi Stefan,
>
> 2016-07-27 5:14 GMT+02:00 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>:
> > The intent is not to make the installation easier.
> > It's to make it compatible with the old (require 'tex-site) method.
> > But as mentioned, maybe rather than make (require 'tex-site) work, it
> > might be preferable to emit a warning explaining that it's better to
> > just do nothing and let package-initialize do its job.
>
> Ok, I see.  Then I'd personally prefer to go by this route (do not use
> `require' at all), but Tassilo is the main maintainer of AUCTeX on
> ELPA.  Tassilo, what's your opinion on this?
>
> Bye,
> Mosè
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #47 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 18:25:44 +0200

Hi Caleb,

2016-07-27 17:51 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> Here are my two cents as a somewhat average emacs user (then I'll butt out
> and let you all decide what you want to do).
>
> I have around 30 packages that I install through ELPA. Since this is pretty
> unwieldy, I have these all configured using the "use-package" macro, which
> will automatically download missing packages and `require' them as
> necessary. This makes installations on new machines really simple.
>
> However, since AUCTeX doesn't have any (require 'auctex) line, use-package
> will fail and AUCTeX won't install. That means that out of the 30 packages I
> have, I am required to install AUCTeX manually. Now that I know that AUCTeX
> will work when you just install it, it is indeed not too hard to get AUCTeX
> working. However, my main hangup in this whole issue is that I expected
> AUCTeX to work like all the other packages I use.
>
> So it's not that AUCTeX is hard to install per se, it's just that it's
> different than all the other 30 packages that I use. This, in my experience,
> has always made AUCTeX confusing to me in the past.

Thanks for sharing your experience.  I understand your position, but the
"problem" with the use of `require' is that loading in this way many packages
sensibly slows down startup of Emacs.  Ok, one should never close at all Emacs,
but sometimes happens :-)

Instead, a smarter approach to load packages is to call them when they're
needed, for this purpose one can use `autoload' combined with `eval-after-load`
(or the recent `with-eval-after-load').  I don't have use-package, I wrote my
init file by myself, and I have few packages that are actually `require'd, the
others are autloaded.  I find this way very effective, because not of all
packages I set up in my init file are actually used in all Emacs sessions I fire
up.  Maybe use-package allows you to do something similar for other packages.

Bye,
Mosè

Message #50 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
To: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>, Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 10:34:37 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I completely understand the problem of slow a slow emacs startup - that's
actually why i started using use-package.
So behind the scenes, use-package creates all these autoloads to speed up
startup.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 10:25 AM, Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> Hi Caleb,
>
> 2016-07-27 17:51 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
> > Here are my two cents as a somewhat average emacs user (then I'll butt
> out
> > and let you all decide what you want to do).
> >
> > I have around 30 packages that I install through ELPA. Since this is
> pretty
> > unwieldy, I have these all configured using the "use-package" macro,
> which
> > will automatically download missing packages and `require' them as
> > necessary. This makes installations on new machines really simple.
> >
> > However, since AUCTeX doesn't have any (require 'auctex) line,
> use-package
> > will fail and AUCTeX won't install. That means that out of the 30
> packages I
> > have, I am required to install AUCTeX manually. Now that I know that
> AUCTeX
> > will work when you just install it, it is indeed not too hard to get
> AUCTeX
> > working. However, my main hangup in this whole issue is that I expected
> > AUCTeX to work like all the other packages I use.
> >
> > So it's not that AUCTeX is hard to install per se, it's just that it's
> > different than all the other 30 packages that I use. This, in my
> experience,
> > has always made AUCTeX confusing to me in the past.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience.  I understand your position, but the
> "problem" with the use of `require' is that loading in this way many
> packages
> sensibly slows down startup of Emacs.  Ok, one should never close at all
> Emacs,
> but sometimes happens :-)
>
> Instead, a smarter approach to load packages is to call them when they're
> needed, for this purpose one can use `autoload' combined with
> `eval-after-load`
> (or the recent `with-eval-after-load').  I don't have use-package, I wrote
> my
> init file by myself, and I have few packages that are actually `require'd,
> the
> others are autloaded.  I find this way very effective, because not of all
> packages I set up in my init file are actually used in all Emacs sessions
> I fire
> up.  Maybe use-package allows you to do something similar for other
> packages.
>
> Bye,
> Mosè
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #53 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
To: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>,
 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 18:59:41 +0200

Hi guys,

currently I have no internet connection at home except for my mobile, but 
I've read the bug thread now. I'm not exactly sure what's the exact 
problem. So please excuse my questions.

One problem seems to be that you cannot preload AUCTeX. Right? OK, here I'd 
say that it is intentional. And loading auctex with a classic non-ELPA 
install will also not preload it but just configure the autoloads 
correctly. (I hope I'm right with that. I haven't checked.)

Another problem seems to be that installing AUCTeX from ELPA via 
use-package does not work because that forcefully does (require '<pkgname>) 
under the hoods. If that is true, then I'd consider it a bug in 
use-package. I don't think there is a requirement that a package has a 
feature named exactly as the package.

But in any case, it would be good if there would be a big fat warning or 
even error when a user loads auctex manually although it's an ELPA install. 
And obviously I'd prefer if the relevant code was not specific to the ELPA 
branch but was shared between that and master.

If I got anything wrong, sorry, please clarify.

Bye,
Tassilo


Am 27. Juli 2016 18:26:39 schrieb Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>:

> Hi Caleb,
>
> 2016-07-27 17:51 GMT+02:00 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>:
>> Here are my two cents as a somewhat average emacs user (then I'll butt out
>> and let you all decide what you want to do).
>>
>> I have around 30 packages that I install through ELPA. Since this is pretty
>> unwieldy, I have these all configured using the "use-package" macro, which
>> will automatically download missing packages and `require' them as
>> necessary. This makes installations on new machines really simple.
>>
>> However, since AUCTeX doesn't have any (require 'auctex) line, use-package
>> will fail and AUCTeX won't install. That means that out of the 30 packages I
>> have, I am required to install AUCTeX manually. Now that I know that AUCTeX
>> will work when you just install it, it is indeed not too hard to get AUCTeX
>> working. However, my main hangup in this whole issue is that I expected
>> AUCTeX to work like all the other packages I use.
>>
>> So it's not that AUCTeX is hard to install per se, it's just that it's
>> different than all the other 30 packages that I use. This, in my experience,
>> has always made AUCTeX confusing to me in the past.
>
> Thanks for sharing your experience.  I understand your position, but the
> "problem" with the use of `require' is that loading in this way many packages
> sensibly slows down startup of Emacs.  Ok, one should never close at all Emacs,
> but sometimes happens :-)
>
> Instead, a smarter approach to load packages is to call them when they're
> needed, for this purpose one can use `autoload' combined with `eval-after-load`
> (or the recent `with-eval-after-load').  I don't have use-package, I wrote my
> init file by myself, and I have few packages that are actually `require'd, the
> others are autloaded.  I find this way very effective, because not of all
> packages I set up in my init file are actually used in all Emacs sessions I 
> fire
> up.  Maybe use-package allows you to do something similar for other packages.
>
> Bye,
> Mosè
>

Message #56 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
To: Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>,
 Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 19:17:52 +0200

Hi Tassilo,

2016-07-27 18:59 GMT+02:00 Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>:
> Another problem seems to be that installing AUCTeX from ELPA via use-package
> does not work because that forcefully does (require '<pkgname>) under the
> hoods. If that is true, then I'd consider it a bug in use-package. I don't
> think there is a requirement that a package has a feature named exactly as
> the package.

Exactly in this regard, use-package's documentation mention a feature
to load a feature with a different name from the package and uses
AUCTeX as an example.  And since AUCTeX never used a `require' to work
(this is actually harmful sometimes), I expected that use-package has
been tested for AUCTeX as well.

> But in any case, it would be good if there would be a big fat warning or
> even error when a user loads auctex manually although it's an ELPA install.
> And obviously I'd prefer if the relevant code was not specific to the ELPA
> branch but was shared between that and master.

Agreed.

Thanks for your comments!

So, Stefan, how we could catch if someone is loading AUCTeX in the "wrong" way?

Bye,
Mosè

Message #59 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>, Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 15:54:53 -0400

> I have around 30 packages that I install through ELPA.  Since this is pretty
> unwieldy,

I must say that I find it far from obvious that it's unwieldy.

> I have these all configured using the "use-package" macro,

By that do you mean that you first go through the trouble of disabling
the normal automatic setup done by ELPA packages, and then setup
use-package for each and every one of those packages, partly redoing by
hand what the ELPA package's normal setup would have done for you?

> which will automatically download missing packages and `require' them
> as necessary.  This makes installations on new machines really simple.

Auto-installing a list of packages seems mostly unrelated to whether
(and how) you configure them, tho.

> However, since AUCTeX doesn't have any (require 'auctex) line, use-package
> will fail and AUCTeX won't install.

Sounds like a problem with use-package.

> Now that I know that AUCTeX will work when you just install it, it is
> indeed not too hard to get AUCTeX working.

FWIW, this should be the case for *all* ELPA packages.


        Stefan

Message #62 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>,
 Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 15:59:12 -0400

> Another problem seems to be that installing AUCTeX from ELPA via use-package
> does not work because that forcefully does (require '<pkgname>) under the
> hoods.

Actually (require 'auctex) does work with the ELPA package *if*
package-initialize was run before (and without a non-nil argument).
Calling package-initialize early on in your ~/.emacs is what should
ideally happen, but IIRC in the OP's case he went to extra length to
disable the normal setup of ELPA packages by calling package-initialize
with a non-nil arg.

> But in any case, it would be good if there would be a big fat warning or
> even error when a user loads auctex manually although it's an ELPA
> install. And obviously I'd prefer if the relevant code was not specific to
> the ELPA branch but was shared between that and master.

Makes sense.

I can't remember enough of how the non-ELPA code works, so feel free to
send me some suggested code or to adjust the code I sent or something.


        Stefan

Message #65 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>, Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 14:53:09 -0600

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

> I must say that I find it far from obvious that it's unwieldy.

I guess 30 packages isn't necessarily unwieldy. I'll rephrase - I have had
many times where I start on a new machine with a newly installed emacs, and
I would like for all 30 packages to be installed automatically (instead of
manually) when they are missing (i keep my .emacs in a git repository).
Furthermore, with 30 packages, I would like all these packages to only load
when necessary, so it doesn't take several seconds to start emacs. The
macro "use-package" solves both these problems for me, but it fails when
trying to auto-install and use AUCTeX. (FWIW, it looks like there is a
workaround that people use specifically for AUCTeX by "requiring" tex-site).

> By that do you mean that you first go through the trouble of disabling
> the normal automatic setup done by ELPA packages, and then setup
> use-package for each and every one of those packages, partly redoing by
> hand what the ELPA package's normal setup would have done for you?

I was disabling some of the automatic setup. My original purpose of this
was to try to reduce my emacs startup time.

> Auto-installing a list of packages seems mostly unrelated to whether
> (and how) you configure them, tho.

It does seem that way, but it is convenient (and I'm probably not the one
to argue on behalf of use-package).

> Sounds like a problem with use-package.

I'm not really determining if the blame lies with AUCTeX and/or
use-package. What I am saying is that use-package is pretty popular and it
works seamlessly with my other packages but does not seem to work as
seamlessly with AUCTeX. It could be there's no requirement that a feature
is named the same as the package, it just seems the majority do (at least
in my experience, which is much more limited than the rest of you)

But I agree, if there were a warning when AUCTeX is loaded the wrong way,
that would be a big help.

Thanks for your comments.

Caleb

P. S.

I decided to go to extra length to not run (package-initialize) because it
was significantly slowing my emacs start time and running
(package-initialize t) made it start faster.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 1:54 PM, Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> iro.umontreal.ca>
wrote:

> > I have around 30 packages that I install through ELPA.  Since this is
> pretty
> > unwieldy,
>
> I must say that I find it far from obvious that it's unwieldy.
>
> > I have these all configured using the "use-package" macro,
>
> By that do you mean that you first go through the trouble of disabling
> the normal automatic setup done by ELPA packages, and then setup
> use-package for each and every one of those packages, partly redoing by
> hand what the ELPA package's normal setup would have done for you?
>
> > which will automatically download missing packages and `require' them
> > as necessary.  This makes installations on new machines really simple.
>
> Auto-installing a list of packages seems mostly unrelated to whether
> (and how) you configure them, tho.
>
> > However, since AUCTeX doesn't have any (require 'auctex) line,
> use-package
> > will fail and AUCTeX won't install.
>
> Sounds like a problem with use-package.
>
> > Now that I know that AUCTeX will work when you just install it, it is
> > indeed not too hard to get AUCTeX working.
>
> FWIW, this should be the case for *all* ELPA packages.
>
>
>         Stefan
>

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Message #68 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, auctex-devel <auctex-devel <at> gnu.org>,
 Mosè Giordano <mose <at> gnu.org>, Tassilo Horn <tsdh <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 21:53:37 -0400

> I was disabling some of the automatic setup. My original purpose of this
> was to try to reduce my emacs startup time.

In an ideal ELPA world, startup is fast because the automatic setup is
cheap (just a few autoloads and such).  So if the automatic setup is too
slow, that can be for one of two reasons:
- some package(s)'s setup is too expensive.  You should then disable the
  offending package's startup (by setting package-load-list), and report
  the problem to the package's author.
- each package's setup is fast but the overall setup ends up still
  too slow.  Then please M-x report-emacs-bug complaining that ELPA's
  automatic setup time is too expensive and needs to be re-designed.

>> Auto-installing a list of packages seems mostly unrelated to whether
>> (and how) you configure them, tho.
> It does seem that way, but it is convenient (and I'm probably not the one
> to argue on behalf of use-package).

Similarly, I don't see why use of use-package would imply that you
disable the automatic setup done by ELPA.  use-package should
complement it, not replace it.

> I decided to go to extra length to not run (package-initialize) because it
> was significantly slowing my emacs start time and running
> (package-initialize t) made it start faster.

I would appreciate if you could investigate the actual source of slow
down, because it's something that shouldn't happen,


        Stefan

Message #71 received at 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>
To: Caleb Rottman <crottman <at> sci.utah.edu>
Cc: 24070 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24070: LaTeX mode doesn't load in 11.89.4
Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:53:18 +0100

Stefan Monnier <monnier <at> IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

>> I was disabling some of the automatic setup. My original purpose of this
>> was to try to reduce my emacs startup time.
>
> In an ideal ELPA world, startup is fast because the automatic setup is
> cheap (just a few autoloads and such).  So if the automatic setup is too
> slow, that can be for one of two reasons:
> - some package(s)'s setup is too expensive.  You should then disable the
>   offending package's startup (by setting package-load-list), and report
>   the problem to the package's author.
> - each package's setup is fast but the overall setup ends up still
>   too slow.  Then please M-x report-emacs-bug complaining that ELPA's
>   automatic setup time is too expensive and needs to be re-designed.
>
>>> Auto-installing a list of packages seems mostly unrelated to whether
>>> (and how) you configure them, tho.
>> It does seem that way, but it is convenient (and I'm probably not the one
>> to argue on behalf of use-package).
>
> Similarly, I don't see why use of use-package would imply that you
> disable the automatic setup done by ELPA.  use-package should
> complement it, not replace it.
>
>> I decided to go to extra length to not run (package-initialize) because it
>> was significantly slowing my emacs start time and running
>> (package-initialize t) made it start faster.
>
> I would appreciate if you could investigate the actual source of slow
> down, because it's something that shouldn't happen,

No more comments, I'm therefore closing this report.

Best, Arash

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