GNU bug report logs - #24443
24.5; Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while DOWN and UP move physically

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
To: <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: 24.5; Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while DOWN and UP move
 physically
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:56:39 +0100

The change in Emacs 23.1 to move up and down by visual lines was
certainly an improvement in usability.  But for some cases such as
keyboard macros it is safer to use the old movement by logical lines.
The Emacs wiki notes that you might want to temporarily change the value
of line-move-visual before calling or recording a macro.  This works,
but it is a bit awkward.

Could I suggest that it might make sense for the more 'expert'
keystrokes C-n and C-p to default to logical line movement, while DOWN
and UP continue to move visually?  Most people who use C-n and C-p will
be Emacs old-timers and remember the logical movement, or at least
understand how to rebind the keys to switch them to visual movement.
This way, rather than two key bindings for the same thing, the different
kinds of line movement both have a key binding.

I think this would make recording macros and other specialized kinds of
cursor movement a lot less fiddly, while keeping the less surprising
behaviour for the ordinary arrow keys.




In GNU Emacs 24.5.1 (x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.18.9)
 of 2016-04-11 on buildvm-25.phx2.fedoraproject.org
Configured using:
 `configure --build=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu
 --host=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu --program-prefix=
 --disable-dependency-tracking --prefix=/usr --exec-prefix=/usr
 --bindir=/usr/bin --sbindir=/usr/sbin --sysconfdir=/etc
 --datadir=/usr/share --includedir=/usr/include --libdir=/usr/lib64
 --libexecdir=/usr/libexec --localstatedir=/var
 --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --mandir=/usr/share/man
 --infodir=/usr/share/info --with-dbus --with-gif --with-jpeg --with-png
 --with-rsvg --with-tiff --with-xft --with-xpm --with-x-toolkit=gtk3
 --with-gpm=no build_alias=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu
 host_alias=x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu 'CFLAGS=-DMAIL_USE_LOCKF -O2 -g
 -pipe -Wall -Werror=format-security -Wp,-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2
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 -grecord-gcc-switches -specs=/usr/lib/rpm/redhat/redhat-hardened-cc1
 -m64 -mtune=generic' LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro'

Important settings:
  value of $LC_COLLATE: C
  value of $LC_CTYPE: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LC_MESSAGES: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LC_MONETARY: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LC_NUMERIC: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LC_TIME: en_GB.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: nXML

Minor modes in effect:
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  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

Recent messages:
Invoking man forward-line in the background
Please wait: formatting the forward-line man page...
forward-line man page formatted
error in process sentinel: user-error: Can't find the forward-line manpage
error in process sentinel: Can't find the forward-line manpage
Quit [3 times]
Type "q" to delete help window.

Quit
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Load-path shadows:
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Memory information:
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Please ignore autogenerated disclaimer below this point.

Message #8 received at 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
Cc: 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24443: 24.5;
 Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while DOWN and UP move
 physically
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 17:39:09 +0300

> From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 13:56:39 +0100
> 
> Could I suggest that it might make sense for the more 'expert'
> keystrokes C-n and C-p to default to logical line movement, while DOWN
> and UP continue to move visually?  Most people who use C-n and C-p will
> be Emacs old-timers and remember the logical movement, or at least
> understand how to rebind the keys to switch them to visual movement.
> This way, rather than two key bindings for the same thing, the different
> kinds of line movement both have a key binding.

This could be a global minor mode, by default off.  I don't think we
can make this the default behavior after so many years of the current
behavior.

Note that this will also contradict the tutorial, which currently says
the arrow keys move the same as C-n/C-p.

Thanks.

Message #11 received at 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: bug#24443: 24.5;	Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while
 DOWN and UP move	physically
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:51:11 +0000

Eli Z. wrote:

>>Could I suggest that it might make sense for the more 'expert'
>>keystrokes C-n and C-p to default to logical line movement, while DOWN
>>and UP continue to move visually
>
>This could be a global minor mode, by default off.  I don't think we
>can make this the default behavior after so many years of the current
>behavior.

Yeah, you'd never change something as fundamental as moving up and down a line after decades of it working one way :-p.
My view is that while the arrow keys shouldn't change, C-n and C-p are 'expert' enough that a tweak to their behaviour can be justified,
particularly as it would be restoring an old and sometimes-missed feature.  But the Emacs maintainers will have the best idea of what their users expect.

The tutorial would need to change and say that while the arrow keys move point around physically on the screen,
the C-n and C-p keystrokes will always go to the next or previous line if one exists.  That would be something useful
for the tutorial to teach.

But apart from the question of defaults, a start would be to add functions next-line-logical and previous-line-logical.
These could then be bound to whatever keys you want without Lisp programming.

-- 
Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>

Message #14 received at 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
Cc: 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24443: 24.5;	Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while
 DOWN and UP move	physically
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 18:18:09 +0300

> From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
> CC: "24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 14:51:11 +0000
> 
> But apart from the question of defaults, a start would be to add functions next-line-logical and previous-line-logical.

We already have those: they are called next-logical-line and
previous-logical-line.

Message #17 received at 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: bug#24443: 24.5;	Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while
 DOWN and UP move	physically
Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:23:44 +0000

>We already have those: they are called next-logical-line and
>previous-logical-line.

Ah!  Could they be mentioned in the documentation for next-line and previous-line?

-- 
Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>

Message #20 received at 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
Cc: 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24443: 24.5;	Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while
 DOWN and UP move	physically
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 12:33:10 +0300

> From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
> CC: "24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2016 15:23:44 +0000
> 
> >We already have those: they are called next-logical-line and
> >previous-logical-line.
> 
> Ah!  Could they be mentioned in the documentation for next-line and previous-line?

Done.

Can we close this bug report, or is there something else that should
be done about it?

Message #23 received at 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: bug#24443: 24.5;	Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while
 DOWN and UP move	physically
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:34:59 +0000

>Can we close this bug report, or is there something else that should
>be done about it?

Hmm, I had expected to get second opinions about the usefulness of having C-n do something different to DOWN (but the same as what C-n always used to do).  But if your view on the matter is the important one, then the bug can be closed.

-- 
Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>

Message #26 received at 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
Cc: 24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#24443: 24.5;	Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while
 DOWN and UP move	physically
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 13:02:01 +0300

> From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
> CC: "24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:34:59 +0000
> 
> >Can we close this bug report, or is there something else that should
> >be done about it?
> 
> Hmm, I had expected to get second opinions about the usefulness of having C-n do something different to DOWN (but the same as what C-n always used to do).  But if your view on the matter is the important one, then the bug can be closed.

I don't mind waiting for a while for someone else to chime in.

Message #31 received at 24443-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 24443-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
Subject: Re: bug#24443: 24.5; Feature: C-n and C-p to move logically while
 DOWN and UP move physically
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 06:30:25 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Ed Avis <eda <at> waniasset.com>
>> CC: "24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <24443 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
>> Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 09:34:59 +0000
>>
>> >Can we close this bug report, or is there something else that should
>> >be done about it?
>>
>> Hmm, I had expected to get second opinions about the usefulness of having C-n do something different to DOWN (but the same as what C-n always used to do).  But if your view on the matter is the important one, then the bug can be closed.
>
> I don't mind waiting for a while for someone else to chime in.

That was three years ago, and no one has expressed any other opinions.
I think it's now safe to close it, so I'm doing that now.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

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