GNU bug report logs - #26991
ls-quotes: new quoting takes up unnecessary space

Previous Next

To add a comment to this bug, you must first unarchive it, by sending
a message to control AT debbugs.gnu.org, with unarchive 26991 in the body.
You can then email your comments to 26991 AT debbugs.gnu.org in the normal way.

Toggle the display of automated, internal messages from the tracker.

Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: L A Walsh <coreutils <at> tlinx.org>
To: bug-coreutils <at> gnu.org
Subject: New quoting takes up unnecessary space
Date: Thu, 18 May 2017 23:48:01 -0700

The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed --
but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted
(needs 5 extra columns).  Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use
2?)?

Here are 32 files:
>  ls
aaaaaaa   bbbbbbb   ccccccc   ddddddd   eeeeeee   fffffff   ggggggg   
hhhhhhh
aaaaaaa0  bbbbbbb0  ccccccc0  ddddddd0  eeeeeee0  fffffff0  ggggggg0  
hhhhhhh0
aaaaaaa1  bbbbbbb1  ccccccc1  ddddddd1  eeeeeee1  fffffff1  ggggggg1  
hhhhhhh1
aaaaaaa2  bbbbbbb2  ccccccc2  ddddddd2  eeeeeee2  fffffff2  ggggggg2  
hhhhhhh2
#       ^^ -- 2 chars separate

>  mv aaaaaaa \"aaaa\'\"    #same number of characters
>  ls  
'"aaaa'\''"'   bbbbbbb0   ccccccc1   ddddddd2   fffffff    ggggggg0   
hhhhhhh1
aaaaaaa0      bbbbbbb1   ccccccc2   eeeeeee    fffffff0   ggggggg1   
hhhhhhh2
aaaaaaa1      bbbbbbb2   ddddddd    eeeeeee0   fffffff1   ggggggg2
aaaaaaa2      ccccccc    ddddddd0   eeeeeee1   fffffff2   hhhhhhh
bbbbbbb       ccccccc0   ddddddd1   eeeeeee2   ggggggg    hhhhhhh0
                      ^^^ - now using minimum of 3 spaces between columns

Message #8 received at 26991 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Pádraig Brady <P <at> draigBrady.com>
To: L A Walsh <coreutils <at> tlinx.org>, 26991 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26991: New quoting takes up unnecessary space
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 09:59:34 +0100

On 19/05/17 07:48, L A Walsh wrote:
> 
> 
> The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed --
> but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted
> (needs 5 extra columns).  Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use
> 2?)?

Yes one can construct edge cases where this isn't ideal.
The normal case though is the quoted files are interspersed
in various columns. It's more important to have consistent
spacing I think on modern terminals. Anyway with layouts
like this you get more wasted space when a few files have
relatively longer names, irrespective of quoting, which is
a much more common issue.

The spacing is increased to 3 to allow for an extra space
for left alignment of non quoted items with quoted ones.

The alignment is more important for long listing I think,
but thought it a net benefit for other formats also.

Pádraig.

Message #11 received at 26991 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: L A Walsh <coreutils <at> tlinx.org>
To: Pádraig Brady <P <at> draigBrady.com>
Cc: 26991 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26991: New quoting takes up unnecessary space
Date: Fri, 19 May 2017 17:37:29 -0700

Pádraig Brady wrote:
> On 19/05/17 07:48, L A Walsh wrote:
>>
>> The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed --
>> but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted
>> (needs 5 extra columns).  Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use
>> 2?)?
> 
> Yes one can construct edge cases where this isn't ideal.
> The normal case though is the quoted files are interspersed
> in various columns. 
---
 Like this?:

'"aaaa'\''"'   bbbbbbb0   'ddd ddd1'   eeeeeee0   ggggggg    hhhhhhh1
'aaa aaa1'     bbbbbbb2    ddddddd     eeeeeee2   ggggggg0   hhhhhhh2
aaaaaaa0     'ccc ccc1'   ddddddd0    fffffff    ggggggg1
aaaaaaa2      ccccccc     ddddddd2    fffffff0   ggggggg2
'bbb bbb1'     ccccccc0   'eee eee1'   fffffff1   hhhhhhh
bbbbbbb       ccccccc2    eeeeeee     fffffff2   hhhhhhh0
       1234567        1234        1234        123        123

You have 3 different spacings between columns.  Your argument
of using 3-spaces for an extra quote vs. 2 when not needed is 
looking pretty unsupportable since it doesn't use 3 when quotes 
ARE needed (it uses 4).  The above could just as easily have been:

'"aaaa'\''"'   bbbbbbb0   'ddd ddd1'  eeeeeee0   ggggggg    hhhhhhh1
'aaa aaa1'     bbbbbbb2    ddddddd    eeeeeee2   ggggggg0   hhhhhhh2
aaaaaaa0     'ccc ccc1'   ddddddd0   fffffff    ggggggg1
aaaaaaa2      ccccccc     ddddddd2   fffffff0   ggggggg2
'bbb bbb1'     ccccccc0    eeeeeee1   fffffff1   hhhhhhh
bbbbbbb       ccccccc2    eeeeeee    fffffff2   hhhhhhh0

And this: 

'"aaa'\''"'   bbbbbb     cccccc0    dddddd2    ffffff    gggggg0   hhhhhh1
'aaa aa1'     bbbbbb0    cccccc2   'eee ee1'   ffffff0   gggggg1   hhhhhh2
aaaaaa0      bbbbbb2   'ddd dd1'   eeeeee     ffffff1   gggggg2
aaaaaa2     'ccc cc1'   dddddd     eeeeee0    ffffff2   hhhhhh
'bbb bb1'     cccccc     dddddd0    eeeeee2    gggggg    hhhhhh0
       12345        123        123         123       123       123
12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890

Could have been:

'"aaa'\''"'  'bbb bb1' 	'ccc cc1'  dddddd1  eeeeee1  ffffff   gggggg   hhhhhh
'aaa aa1'     bbbbb      cccccc    dddddd   eeeeee   ffffff0  gggggg0  hhhhhh0
aaaaaa0      bbbbb0     cccccc0   dddddd0  eeeeee0  ffffff1  gggggg1  hhhhhh1
aaaaaa2      bbbbb2     cccccc2   dddddd2  eeeeee2  ffffff2  gggggg2  hhhhhh2
          12         12         12       12       12       12       12 
12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890


> It's more important to have consistent spacing I think on modern terminals.
----
	But you don't as shown above -- you simply waste an extra space using
3 columns of padding rather than 2.


> Anyway with layouts
> like this you get more wasted space when a few files have
> relatively longer names, irrespective of quoting, which is
> a much more common issue.
---
	Irrelevant. You are using 3 spaces when no quoting is
needed, instead of 2, forcing an extra column into all output
regardless of name length.

>
> The spacing is increased to 3 to allow for an extra space
> for left alignment of non quoted items with quoted ones.
---
	As shown above it isn't needed.  I have 2 between 2 quoted items,
between a combo w/1-quoted and 1 not, and 2 between non-quoted.  2-spaces
between visible characters in all columns.

> The alignment is more important for long listing I think,
> but thought it a net benefit for other formats also.
---
	For a long listing, you don't multiply the spacing
by N columns.  You only have 1 column, so ANY filename w/a quote 
would require an extra space for the entire (1) column to line up, but
in a long listing things are still odd looking w/the last column sticking out:
> ls -l *[ab]* 
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:28 '"aaa'\''"'
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 'aaa aa1'
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27  aaaaaa0
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27  aaaaaa2
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 'bbb bb1'
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27  bbbbbb
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27  bbbbbb0
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27  bbbbbb2

---vs. non quoted format---

-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:28 "aaa'"
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaa aa1
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaaaaa0
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 aaaaaa2
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbb bb1
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb0
-rw-rw-rw-+ 1 Bliss\law Bliss\lawgroup 0 May 18 23:27 bbbbbb2

Very simply, the new format is wasting space with no justifiable 
reason.

Message #18 received at 26991-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Assaf Gordon <assafgordon <at> gmail.com>
To: L A Walsh <coreutils <at> tlinx.org>
Cc: 26991-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#26991: New quoting takes up unnecessary space
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2018 13:34:52 -0700

Hello,

On 2017-05-19 6:37 p.m., L A Walsh wrote:
> 
> 
> Pádraig Brady wrote:
>> On 19/05/17 07:48, L A Walsh wrote:
>>>
>>> The new format uses extra spacing on columns where it isn't needed --
>>> but the extra space isn't enough to handle the 1 file that was quoted
>>> (needs 5 extra columns).  Where does it get '3' (and why doesn't it use
>>> 2?)?
>>


We created a summary of common issues and FAQs
regarding the quoting change in ls(1):
  https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/quotes.html

If there is an issue that is not addressed there,
please send an email to coreutils <at> gnu.org .

regards,
 - assaf

Previous Next

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.