GNU bug report logs - #27170
26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build output to log file not *Messages*

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com (N. Jackson)
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 26.0.50;
 Suggestion: Optionally send package build output to log file not
 *Messages*
Date: Wed, 31 May 2017 12:51:25 -0400

When installing/updating packages a lot of messages are generated.
These clutter up the *Messages* buffer and make it hard to find
recent messages from before the package operation.

Worse, they often cause truncation of the *Messages* buffer so
that recent messages from just before the package operation are
deleted.

And worse yet, when one wants to inspect the output from package
builds, it is often incomplete in the *Messages* buffer because
there was so much output that the earlier output was lost.

Setting `messages-buffer-max-lines' to a larger value is a
potential work-around, but it is unclear ahead of time how large
to set it. For example, if say Auctex and Org both get updated at
the same time the amount of output from package is very
large.


A potential solution to this would be, optionally, to have the package
build output go to a log file instead of to the *Messages* buffer. Only
the summary messages (number of packages updated, success in updating
them etc.) need be written to *Messages*.


In GNU Emacs 26.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.15)
 of 2017-05-31 built on moondust.localdomain
Repository revision: a415c8bccb917c247792c4ce8e77b2512b3414d6
Windowing system distributor 'Fedora Project', version 11.0.11903000
System Description:	Fedora release 25 (Twenty Five)

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Message #8 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com (N. Jackson)
Cc: 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:08:18 +0200

nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com (N. Jackson) writes:

> When installing/updating packages a lot of messages are generated.
> These clutter up the *Messages* buffer and make it hard to find
> recent messages from before the package operation.
>
> Worse, they often cause truncation of the *Messages* buffer so
> that recent messages from just before the package operation are
> deleted.

Yeah, that doesn't sound ideal...

> A potential solution to this would be, optionally, to have the package
> build output go to a log file instead of to the *Messages* buffer. Only
> the summary messages (number of packages updated, success in updating
> them etc.) need be written to *Messages*.

I don't think we'd actually want to write this to a log file, but there
could be a different log buffer.

To implement that, we'd need to export Vmessages_buffer_name to Lisp
Land (I think?), and we could then just rebind the variable to something
else before doing the package builds.

I think exporting the variable to Lisp Land sounds useful, in any case.

Any opinions here?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #11 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:34:28 +0200

Am Do., 20. Aug. 2020 um 18:09 Uhr schrieb Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>:
>
> nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com (N. Jackson) writes:
>
> > When installing/updating packages a lot of messages are generated.
> > These clutter up the *Messages* buffer and make it hard to find
> > recent messages from before the package operation.
> >
> > Worse, they often cause truncation of the *Messages* buffer so
> > that recent messages from just before the package operation are
> > deleted.
>
> Yeah, that doesn't sound ideal...
>
> > A potential solution to this would be, optionally, to have the package
> > build output go to a log file instead of to the *Messages* buffer. Only
> > the summary messages (number of packages updated, success in updating
> > them etc.) need be written to *Messages*.
>
> I don't think we'd actually want to write this to a log file, but there
> could be a different log buffer.
>
> To implement that, we'd need to export Vmessages_buffer_name to Lisp
> Land (I think?), and we could then just rebind the variable to something
> else before doing the package builds.
>
> I think exporting the variable to Lisp Land sounds useful, in any case.
>
> Any opinions here?


I don't think we can rename the *Messages* buffer. We document that
its name is *Messages*, and there's certainly tons of code around that
assumes that.
If we want to change anything in this area, we'd better DTRT and
introduce a proper logging framework, with customizable log sources
and sinks (the *Messages* buffer being one of the sinks).

Message #14 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 18:43:12 +0200

Philipp Stephani <p.stephani2 <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I don't think we can rename the *Messages* buffer. We document that
> its name is *Messages*, and there's certainly tons of code around that
> assumes that.

I'm not talking about renaming the *Messages* buffer -- just being able
to redirect messages to a different buffer if we want to.

> If we want to change anything in this area, we'd better DTRT and
> introduce a proper logging framework, with customizable log sources
> and sinks (the *Messages* buffer being one of the sinks).

Sounds like overkill to me.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #17 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 10:38:49 -0700

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> I don't think we'd actually want to write this to a log file, but there
> could be a different log buffer.
>
> To implement that, we'd need to export Vmessages_buffer_name to Lisp
> Land (I think?), and we could then just rebind the variable to something
> else before doing the package builds.
>
> I think exporting the variable to Lisp Land sounds useful, in any case.
>
> Any opinions here?

I agree, and would really appreciate seeing this fixed.

But why not support a log file?  I'm thinking it could occasionaly be
useful.  And shouldn't any package system with self-respect have a log
file? :-)

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #20 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 13:09:36 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> But why not support a log file?  I'm thinking it could occasionaly be
> useful.  And shouldn't any package system with self-respect have a log
> file? :-)

Sure, writing the output to a file would be fine, but I don't think
Emacs needs a logging framework for that.  If we can redirect messages
to a buffer, then package.el can do whatever it wants with the messages,
including writing them to a file if so desired.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #23 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50;
 Suggestion: Optionally send package build output to log file not
 *Messages*
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 23:51:41 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Sure, writing the output to a file would be fine, but I don't think
  > Emacs needs a logging framework for that.  If we can redirect messages
  > to a buffer, then package.el can do whatever it wants with the messages,
  > including writing them to a file if so desired.

I agree.  Let's not make this more complex than the minimum.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #26 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2020 07:29:18 -0400

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Sure, writing the output to a file would be fine, but I don't think
> Emacs needs a logging framework for that.  If we can redirect messages
> to a buffer, then package.el can do whatever it wants with the messages,
> including writing them to a file if so desired.

Agreed.

Message #29 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:24:25 +0100

Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

>   > Sure, writing the output to a file would be fine, but I don't think
>   > Emacs needs a logging framework for that.  If we can redirect messages
>   > to a buffer, then package.el can do whatever it wants with the messages,
>   > including writing them to a file if so desired.
>
> I agree.  Let's not make this more complex than the minimum.

This has now been added to Emacs 29 -- packages can bind
`messages-buffer-name' to a different buffer name to redirect the
output.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #34 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org,
 stefankangas <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50;
 Suggestion: Optionally send package build output to log file not
 *Messages*
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 19:30:22 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2022 17:24:25 +0100
> Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas <at> gmail.com
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >   > Sure, writing the output to a file would be fine, but I don't think
> >   > Emacs needs a logging framework for that.  If we can redirect messages
> >   > to a buffer, then package.el can do whatever it wants with the messages,
> >   > including writing them to a file if so desired.
> >
> > I agree.  Let's not make this more complex than the minimum.
> 
> This has now been added to Emacs 29 -- packages can bind
> `messages-buffer-name' to a different buffer name to redirect the
> output.

The "bind" part (also in the doc string of the variable) might mislead
someone into thinking that just binding this variable around some form
is enough to have all the relevant messages to go to that buffer.  But
that is not necessarily true, because some messages are produced after
the command exits; a prominent example is messages produced by the
display engine.

So basically, binding this variable will actually _split_ the messages
between *Messages* and some other buffer.

Message #37 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org,
 stefankangas <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 16:52:56 +0100

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> The "bind" part (also in the doc string of the variable) might mislead
> someone into thinking that just binding this variable around some form
> is enough to have all the relevant messages to go to that buffer.

I think most people know that that's what binding means...?

> But that is not necessarily true, because some messages are produced
> after the command exits; a prominent example is messages produced by
> the display engine.
>
> So basically, binding this variable will actually _split_ the messages
> between *Messages* and some other buffer.

Of course a binding has no effect on code that runs after the binding is
over -- we don't note this in the documentation for, say,
`print-length', so I'm not sure why we'd note this in relation to this
variable either.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #40 received at 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms <at> gnu.org,
 stefankangas <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#27170: 26.0.50; Suggestion: Optionally send package build
 output to log file not *Messages*
Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 18:48:56 +0200

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: rms <at> gnu.org,  nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com,  27170 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>   stefankangas <at> gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2022 16:52:56 +0100
> 
> > So basically, binding this variable will actually _split_ the messages
> > between *Messages* and some other buffer.
> 
> Of course a binding has no effect on code that runs after the binding is
> over -- we don't note this in the documentation for, say,
> `print-length', so I'm not sure why we'd note this in relation to this
> variable either.

The point I was trying to make was that echo-area messages we see
don't necessarily come from code of the command, and so having a
command bind the variable might not catch all of the messages.

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