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#28182
maybe implement CTRL++ to zoom text
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積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>:
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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
In most browsers, CTRL++ zooms text,
making it progressively bigger.
In emacs, one just gets
"C-= is undefined".
(CTRL+-, the reverse action, is bound to
negative-argument.)
Anyway, no matter what binding or not, there is apparently not command
yet to simply zoom text like in a browser. The best one can do is the
methods mentioned in (info "(emacs) Fonts").
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(Tue, 22 Aug 2017 14:31:02 GMT)
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Message #8 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson
> <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
> Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 11:05:40 +0800
>
> In most browsers, CTRL++ zooms text,
> making it progressively bigger.
> In emacs, one just gets
> "C-= is undefined".
>
> (CTRL+-, the reverse action, is bound to
> negative-argument.)
>
> Anyway, no matter what binding or not, there is apparently not command
> yet to simply zoom text like in a browser. The best one can do is the
> methods mentioned in (info "(emacs) Fonts").
Did you try "C-x C-+"?
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Message #11 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
What about text-scale-adjust (C-x C-+ or C-x C-=) ?
On 22 August 2017 at 05:05, 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org> wrote:
> In most browsers, CTRL++ zooms text,
> making it progressively bigger.
> In emacs, one just gets
> "C-= is undefined".
>
> (CTRL+-, the reverse action, is bound to
> negative-argument.)
>
> Anyway, no matter what binding or not, there is apparently not command
> yet to simply zoom text like in a browser. The best one can do is the
> methods mentioned in (info "(emacs) Fonts").
>
>
>
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Message #14 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> Did you try "C-x C-+"?
I don't think it would occur to people to try that key sequence.
It's not what other programs use.
How about if we make C-+ and C-- do this, as they do in many
other programs?
--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org)
Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html.
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Message #17 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
> > Did you try "C-x C-+"?
>
> I don't think it would occur to people to try that key sequence.
> It's not what other programs use.
>
> How about if we make C-+ and C-- do this, as they do in many
> other programs?
FWIW -
1. C-- (where it is supported) is the same as M-- and C-M--
(`negative-argument').
2. Lots of users no doubt bind C-+ (and C-=, because = is the
unshifted + key on many keyboards) for something else.
For example, I use C-= as a prefix key for comparison operations
(e.g. C-= b is ediff-buffers, C-= d is diff, C-= e is ediff-files,
and C-= w is compare-windows). I've suggested that Emacs do the
same out of the box, = being a good mnemonic for comparison.
(Yes, I know that existing user bindings don't count for much.
Just mentioning this.)
3. If we were to bind C-- and C-+ to as you suggest then we should
at least keep the C-x C-- and C-x C-+ (and C-x C-=) bindings as well.
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Message #20 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
All I know is we were taught to use "C-u -" for negative arguments,
therefore maybe C-- can be used to unzoom. And C-+ (C-=) is unbound at
the moment.
By the way currently on (info "(emacs) Text Scale") it says
The final key of these commands may be repeated without the leading
‘C-x’. For instance, ‘C-x C-= C-= C-=’ increases the face height by
three steps.
Perhaps it should also note C-x C-= = = does the same thing.
I also notice if text-scale-mode-step is exactly 1 and one trys C-x C-=
etc. text becomes very tiny. I suppose it was never expected that anyone
try that and maybe an error should be raised.
Anyway all these multiplication factors still leave no way for the user
to go from 12 to 13 to 14 to 15 ... point sizes.
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Message #23 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> All I know is we were taught to use "C-u -" for negative arguments,
Don't follow everything you are taught. ;-)
> therefore maybe C-- can be used to unzoom. And C-+ (C-=) is unbound at
> the moment.
They are free, but there is no reason to waste them.
Leaving these commands on the C-x prefix makes sense. When the
last key is repeated the action is repeated, which is very quick.
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Message #26 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>>>>> "DA" == Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:
DA> They are free, but there is no reason to waste them.
Saving them for some future better commands despite many programs having
already reached a consensus on what they should do?
DA> Leaving these commands on the C-x prefix makes sense. When the
DA> last key is repeated the action is repeated, which is very quick.
All I know is please keep
C-x C-= runs the command text-scale-adjust
and add
C-= also runs the command text-scale-adjust...
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Message #29 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> DA> They are free, but there is no reason to waste them.
>
> Saving them for some future better commands despite many programs
> having already reached a consensus on what they should do?
"Many programs" are not Emacs. Most programs do not use anywhere
near the number of key bindings Emacs uses (out of the box).
Binding keys by default is not something to do lightly.
"Many programs" use CUA keys too. Emacs does not, except by user
opt-in (`cua-mode'). That's the right approach, IMO.
> DA> Leaving these commands on the C-x prefix makes sense. When the
> DA> last key is repeated the action is repeated, which is very quick.
>
> All I know is please keep C-x C-= runs the command text-scale-adjust
> and add C-= also runs the command text-scale-adjust...
Yes to keeping C-x C-= as text-scale-adjust.
No, C-= does not current run text-scale-adjust; it is unbound.
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Message #32 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> CC: jidanni <at> jidanni.org, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 23 Aug 2017 10:16:11 -0400
>
> How about if we make C-+ and C-- do this, as they do in many
> other programs?
These keys are already taken for typing numerical argument. So I
don't think we should make such incompatible changes.
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Message #35 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
> > Did you try "C-x C-+"?
>
> I don't think it would occur to people to try that key sequence.
> It's not what other programs use.
>
> How about if we make C-+ and C-- do this, as they do in many
> other programs?
I think that people want to increase size of font when they are in an
environment with mouse. Thus I suggest <C-wheel-up> and <C-wheel-down>.
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Message #38 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
This morning I finally switched from
$ xrandr --output DP-1 --mode 1920x1080 #to
$ xrandr --output DP-1 --mode 1680x1050
and now can read things comfortably again.
About that text zooming key binding stuff,
maybe make them part (info "(emacs) CUA Bindings").
That seems where the CTRL++ and CTRL+- overrides belong.
If the user is rebinding C-c and C-x etc. then he probably also wants
the zoom overrides for CTRL++ and CTRL+- he is familiar with.
(I'm not exactly sure how close all this is to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Common_User_Access etc.)
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Message #41 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> I think that people want to increase size of font when they are in an
> environment with mouse. Thus I suggest <C-wheel-up> and <C-wheel-down>.
+1.
FWIW, I do that in zoom-frm.el.
Commands `zoom-in' and `zoom-out' can do text-scaling or frame-zooming,
depending on the value of variable `zoom-frame/buffer' (which you can
toggle with a prefix arg for the command).
(global-set-key [S-mouse-1] 'zoom-in)
(global-set-key [C-S-mouse-1] 'zoom-out)
(global-set-key (vector (list 'control mouse-wheel-down-event)) 'zoom-in)
(global-set-key (vector (list 'control mouse-wheel-up-event)) 'zoom-out)
And in/out command `zoom-in/out':
(define-key ctl-x-map [(control ?+)] 'zoom-in/out)
(define-key ctl-x-map [(control ?-)] 'zoom-in/out)
(define-key ctl-x-map [(control ?=)] 'zoom-in/out)
(define-key ctl-x-map [(control ?0)] 'zoom-in/out)
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/zoom-frm.el
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Message #44 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> About that text zooming key binding stuff,
> maybe make them part (info "(emacs) CUA Bindings").
> That seems where the CTRL++ and CTRL+- overrides belong.
> If the user is rebinding C-c and C-x etc. then he probably also wants
> the zoom overrides for CTRL++ and CTRL+- he is familiar with.
>
> (I'm not exactly sure how close all this is to
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-
> 3A__en.wikipedia.org_wiki_IBM-5FCommon-5FUser-
> 5FAccess&d=DwIBAg&c=RoP1YumCXCgaWHvlZYR8PQcxBKCX5YTpkKY057SbK10&r=qZLZosY6GB
> AaJtOG9v8QX7nD4BS9t9s5otgxC3d4IFU&m=7BofVf_jmEndxuMwgszZM4WqfVkdKiqE6m48YHoX
> OHw&s=C6n8ANAX45ayIUggDjIsrtZrB9LnLneshTs6eBpF59o&e= etc.)
As you hint in your last paragraph, I don't think this has
anything to do with CUA.
Just as I argue that Emacs's cl.el should not have extraneous
stuff that has nothing to do with Common Lisp (which it has
gotten, little by little), so I'd argue that text-scaling
should not be added to `cua-mode'. If you want to create
another minor mode that uses those keys for text-scaling,
that's OK by me.
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Message #47 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
tags 28182 + patch
quit
Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> > Did you try "C-x C-+"?
>>
>> I don't think it would occur to people to try that key sequence.
>> It's not what other programs use.
>>
>> How about if we make C-+ and C-- do this, as they do in many
>> other programs?
>
> I think that people want to increase size of font when they are in an
> environment with mouse. Thus I suggest <C-wheel-up> and <C-wheel-down>.
I think this is a good idea, which has the usability benefit to mirror
what happens in many common browsers, and other common text editors.
I remember myself that I was struggling to find the binding to change
the font size when I was an Emacs beginner.
I have implemented this suggestion in the attached patch.
However, this will be an incompatible change, since this was
previously bound to scrolling up and down by close to a full screen.
I therefore moved that binding to the meta modifier and wrote a NEWS
item that explains how to get the old functionality back.
How does it look?
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
[0001-Bind-changing-font-size-to-C-mouse-4-and-C-mouse-5.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]
Added tag(s) patch.
Request was from
Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
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control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
(Wed, 21 Aug 2019 01:52:03 GMT)
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Message #52 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> I think this is a good idea, which has the usability benefit to mirror
> what happens in many common browsers, and other common text editors.
> I remember myself that I was struggling to find the binding to change
> the font size when I was an Emacs beginner.
>
> I have implemented this suggestion in the attached patch.
>
> However, this will be an incompatible change, since this was
> previously bound to scrolling up and down by close to a full screen.
> I therefore moved that binding to the meta modifier and wrote a NEWS
> item that explains how to get the old functionality back.
>
> How does it look?
I'm not sure that mouse-4 and mouse-5 have that meaning
for all mice and platforms. Some mice have separate
mouse-4 and mouse-5 buttons.
I think this is the right way to do it:
(global-set-key (vector (list 'control mouse-wheel-up-event))
'text-scale-increase))
(global-set-key (vector (list 'control mouse-wheel-down-event))
'text-scale-decrease))
I've been using that for years, and I use it all the time.
---
But I bind them to `zoom-in' and `zoom-out', which can
zoom either the buffer (via `text-scale-(in|de)crease)
or the frame (via `zoom-frm-(in|out)'). A prefix arg
toggles between buffer and frame zooming.
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/zoom-frm.el
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Message #55 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:
> > I think this is a good idea, which has the usability benefit to mirror
> > what happens in many common browsers, and other common text editors.
> > I remember myself that I was struggling to find the binding to change
> > the font size when I was an Emacs beginner.
> >
> > I have implemented this suggestion in the attached patch.
> >
> > However, this will be an incompatible change, since this was
> > previously bound to scrolling up and down by close to a full screen.
> > I therefore moved that binding to the meta modifier and wrote a NEWS
> > item that explains how to get the old functionality back.
> >
> > How does it look?
>
> I'm not sure that mouse-4 and mouse-5 have that meaning
> for all mice and platforms. Some mice have separate
> mouse-4 and mouse-5 buttons.
Thanks. Your comment made me realize that my entire approach had been
a bit naive. I've now reworked the patch to only enable these key
bindings when mouse-wheel-mode is enabled, and added a defcustom to
change which modifier the font size functionality will use (or to
optionally disable it completely).
One small comment regarding the patch. We could perhaps get away with
not adding the defvar mwheel-installed-text-scale-bindings, but I
added that to make sure that we don't accidentally remove any key
bindings we didn't mean to. I might be too defensive here, though, so
please let me know if simpler code is preferred here over this level
of cautiousness.
Thanks,
Stefan Kangas
[0001-Bind-changing-font-size-to-mouse-wheel-up-and-down.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]
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Message #58 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> One small comment regarding the patch. We could perhaps get away with
> not adding the defvar mwheel-installed-text-scale-bindings, but I
> added that to make sure that we don't accidentally remove any key
> bindings we didn't mean to. I might be too defensive here, though, so
> please let me know if simpler code is preferred here over this level
> of cautiousness.
Nice change. Another variant is to add special symbols to
the existing customization, e.g.:
'(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . text-scale) ((meta) . nil))
or even support text-scale step number if needed:
'(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . (text-scale . 1)) ((meta) . nil))
This is similar to what I proposed with
'((shift) . (hscroll . 1))
to scroll horizontally like Shift-wheel does in web browsers:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-10/msg00202.html
Also please look at discussions for other related requests:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-05/msg00529.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-03/msg00797.html
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-09/msg00129.html
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Message #61 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:
> Nice change.
Glad you like it.
> Another variant is to add special symbols to
> the existing customization, e.g.:
>
> '(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . text-scale) ((meta) . nil))
>
> or even support text-scale step number if needed:
>
> '(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . (text-scale . 1)) ((meta) . nil))
I like your idea that this would all be defined in one place.
One nit is that the variable name there is mouse-wheel-scroll-amount,
and I'm not sure this is the best name for functionality to change the
font size. If we go ahead with that, perhaps it should be renamed to
something like mouse-wheel-scroll-modifiers?
> This is similar to what I proposed with
>
> '((shift) . (hscroll . 1))
>
> to scroll horizontally like Shift-wheel does in web browsers:
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-10/msg00202.html
Thanks for pointing that out. AFAICT that was never merged?
> Also please look at discussions for other related requests:
>
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-05/msg00529.html
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-03/msg00797.html
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-09/msg00129.html
Thanks.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #64 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>> Another variant is to add special symbols to
>> the existing customization, e.g.:
>>
>> '(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . text-scale) ((meta) . nil))
>>
>> or even support text-scale step number if needed:
>>
>> '(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . (text-scale . 1)) ((meta) . nil))
>
> I like your idea that this would all be defined in one place.
>
> One nit is that the variable name there is mouse-wheel-scroll-amount,
> and I'm not sure this is the best name for functionality to change the
> font size. If we go ahead with that, perhaps it should be renamed to
> something like mouse-wheel-scroll-modifiers?
It looks like mouse-wheel-scroll-amount still makes some sense
as using wheel-scrolling to change the amount of font pixels.
Generally it's better to refrain from renaming old customisable
variables when possible.
>> This is similar to what I proposed with
>>
>> '((shift) . (hscroll . 1))
>>
>> to scroll horizontally like Shift-wheel does in web browsers:
>>
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-10/msg00202.html
>
> Thanks for pointing that out. AFAICT that was never merged?
Alas, that was never merged, but I still miss this functionality.
Maybe now there is another chance first to implement ((control) . text-scale)
and then duplicate the same functionality for ((shift) . (hscroll . 1))
>> Also please look at discussions for other related requests:
>>
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2015-05/msg00529.html
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-03/msg00797.html
>> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2017-09/msg00129.html
>
> Thanks.
These are more about changing the numeric values for smoother scrolling,
I already customized to the suggested values, and scrolling is really
smoother, but I'm not sure about changing the default values.
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Message #67 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:
> >> Another variant is to add special symbols to
> >> the existing customization, e.g.:
> >>
> >> '(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . text-scale) ((meta) . nil))
> >>
> >> or even support text-scale step number if needed:
> >>
> >> '(5 ((shift) . 1) ((control) . (text-scale . 1)) ((meta) . nil))
> >
> > I like your idea that this would all be defined in one place.
> >
> > One nit is that the variable name there is mouse-wheel-scroll-amount,
> > and I'm not sure this is the best name for functionality to change the
> > font size. If we go ahead with that, perhaps it should be renamed to
> > something like mouse-wheel-scroll-modifiers?
>
> It looks like mouse-wheel-scroll-amount still makes some sense
> as using wheel-scrolling to change the amount of font pixels.
> Generally it's better to refrain from renaming old customisable
> variables when possible.
I've attached a tentative patch along those lines. WDYT?
I'm not sure exactly how to reformulate the doc string for
mouse-wheel-scroll-amount to fit the new behaviour. I'll have to
think about it a bit more. Do let me know if you have any ideas.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
[0001-Support-changing-font-size-using-mouse-wheel.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]
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(Sat, 28 Sep 2019 13:50:02 GMT)
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Message #70 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2019 15:09:34 +0200
> Cc: Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com>, Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>,
> 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
>
> I've attached a tentative patch along those lines. WDYT?
Any reason to make the new behavior be the default, i.e. break
backward compatibility? Why not make this an opt-in feature instead?
> I'm not sure exactly how to reformulate the doc string for
> mouse-wheel-scroll-amount to fit the new behaviour. I'll have to
> think about it a bit more. Do let me know if you have any ideas.
I'm not sure we need to change the doc string, but we definitely need
to change the :version tag.
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Message #73 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> > I've attached a tentative patch along those lines. WDYT?
>
> Any reason to make the new behavior be the default, i.e. break
> backward compatibility? Why not make this an opt-in feature instead?
I think it's a better default, since it's more in line with user
expectations. The "Ctrl+mouse whell changes font size" behaviour is
pretty ubiquitous in browsers, text editors and IDEs. From the top of
my head, you can change the font size (sometimes called "zoom") using
this shortcut in Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Eclipse, LibreOffice, Adobe
Reader, evince, and many, many others. From searching the web, this
seems to be the default also in Atom, Sublime Text, TextMate,
Notepad++ and IntelliJ. VSCode stands out by making this optional.
We could of course make it an opt-in feature should we want to do that.
> > I'm not sure exactly how to reformulate the doc string for
> > mouse-wheel-scroll-amount to fit the new behaviour. I'll have to
> > think about it a bit more. Do let me know if you have any ideas.
>
> I'm not sure we need to change the doc string, but we definitely need
> to change the :version tag.
Fixed that in the attached patch.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
[0001-Support-changing-font-size-using-mouse-wheel.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]
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Message #76 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> I think it's a better default, since it's more in line with user
> expectations. The "Ctrl+mouse whell changes font size" behaviour is
> pretty ubiquitous in browsers, text editors and IDEs.
I proposed CTRL +, but you're talking about the mouse wheel.
They are not the same: my laptop has no mouse wheel.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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Message #79 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
> > I think it's a better default, since it's more in line with user
> > expectations. The "Ctrl+mouse whell changes font size" behaviour is
> > pretty ubiquitous in browsers, text editors and IDEs.
>
> I proposed CTRL +, but you're talking about the mouse wheel.
> They are not the same: my laptop has no mouse wheel.
Earlier in this thread, Eli objected to that proposal because it would
be backwards incompatible. I don't know the status of that proposal
beyond that.
Changing the mouse wheel behaviour was raised during the discussion as
an alternative. I agreed, and there seemed to be little controversy
around it, so I implemented that and sent it here. Sorry if that
caused any confusion.
I see no conflict between changing the key bindings and changing the
mouse wheel behaviour.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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(Sun, 29 Sep 2019 07:37:01 GMT)
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Message #82 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 03:40:05 +0200
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com>,
> Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
>
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> > > I think it's a better default, since it's more in line with user
> > > expectations. The "Ctrl+mouse whell changes font size" behaviour is
> > > pretty ubiquitous in browsers, text editors and IDEs.
> >
> > I proposed CTRL +, but you're talking about the mouse wheel.
> > They are not the same: my laptop has no mouse wheel.
>
> Earlier in this thread, Eli objected to that proposal because it would
> be backwards incompatible.
The problem is not with C-+, which is undefined by default. The
problem is with C--, which is used for numeric arguments. It makes
little sense to me to use C-+ for increasing the font size without
also using C-- for decreasing it.
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(Sun, 29 Sep 2019 15:35:01 GMT)
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Message #85 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> The problem is not with C-+, which is undefined by default. The
> problem is with C--, which is used for numeric arguments. It makes
> little sense to me to use C-+ for increasing the font size without
> also using C-- for decreasing it.
I would find C-+ useful even if C-- does numeric arguments.
C-- C-+ would shrink the font size. Indeed, that is an easy
combination to type.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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Message #88 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
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[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
I have no objection to implementing a mouse wheel feature,
but it doesn't solve my problem.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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(Sun, 29 Sep 2019 15:42:02 GMT)
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Message #91 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com, juri <at> linkov.net,
> 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 11:33:58 -0400
>
> I would find C-+ useful even if C-- does numeric arguments.
> C-- C-+ would shrink the font size. Indeed, that is an easy
> combination to type.
It isn't so easy on my keyboard, where C-+ requires to press Shift.
Also, this is not what other applications out there provide for this
purpose, they provide C-mouse-wheel. We already have "C-x C-+"
(actually, "C-x C-=", as pressing Shift is unnecessary) and its
counterpart "C-x C--", which are easy enough and don't get in the way
of other bindings. How many different bindings do we need to have for
such an infrequent command?
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(Sun, 29 Sep 2019 15:45:02 GMT)
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Message #94 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 11:37:01 -0400
> Cc: homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com, juri <at> linkov.net, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> jidanni <at> jidanni.org
>
> I have no objection to implementing a mouse wheel feature,
> but it doesn't solve my problem.
Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
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Message #97 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
Does C-x C-+ increase the font size? I didn't know that. I thought of
trying C-+ because that is what other graphical applications use.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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Message #100 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
> > Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
>
> Does C-x C-+ increase the font size? I didn't know that. I thought of
> trying C-+ because that is what other graphical applications use.
It's a bit unusual, but it was presumably chosen because `C--' was
already taken, so the natural pair became `C-x C--' and `C-x C-+'.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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Message #103 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com, juri <at> linkov.net, stefan <at> marxist.se,
> 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 19:36:06 -0400
>
> > Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
>
> Does C-x C-+ increase the font size?
Yes. And "C-x C--" decreases it.
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(Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:03:01 GMT)
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Message #106 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>>>>> On Mon, 30 Sep 2019 09:16:16 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> said:
>> From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
>> Cc: homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com, juri <at> linkov.net, stefan <at> marxist.se,
>> 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
>> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 19:36:06 -0400
>>
>> > Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
>>
>> Does C-x C-+ increase the font size?
Eli> Yes. And "C-x C--" decreases it.
Whoever implemented this originally went a bit far, I think:
C-x C-= runs the command text-scale-adjust (found in global-map),
which is an autoloaded interactive compiled Lisp function in
`face-remap.el'.
It is bound to s-0, s-=, s-+, s--, C-x C-0, C-x C-=, C-x C--, C-x C-+.
Are those s- bindings really necessary? Hey, I have a usable super
key! :-)
Robert
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Message #109 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: rms <at> gnu.org, homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com, juri <at> linkov.net,
> stefan <at> marxist.se, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 11:02:00 +0200
>
> It is bound to s-0, s-=, s-+, s--, C-x C-0, C-x C-=, C-x C--, C-x C-+.
>
> Are those s- bindings really necessary?
I don't know, but we've survived that this far, didn't we?
(I'm guessing s-+ etc. was an attempt to have the simplicity of C-+
the other apps have.)
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Message #112 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> > > Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
> >
> > Does C-x C-+ increase the font size?
> Yes. And "C-x C--" decreases it.
It would be better to make C-+ do it also
since people used to other applications will try that.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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Message #115 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 12:16:36PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > From: Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com>
> > Cc: rms <at> gnu.org, homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com, juri <at> linkov.net,
> > stefan <at> marxist.se, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> > Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2019 11:02:00 +0200
> >
> > It is bound to s-0, s-=, s-+, s--, C-x C-0, C-x C-=, C-x C--, C-x C-+.
> >
> > Are those s- bindings really necessary?
>
> I don't know, but we've survived that this far, didn't we?
>
> (I'm guessing s-+ etc. was an attempt to have the simplicity of C-+
> the other apps have.)
I think Robert uses the NS port, and those super bindings were added
for compatibility with other *step applications. Quite recently,
actually: they’re not in Emacs 26.
--
Alan Third
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Message #118 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> > > I've attached a tentative patch along those lines. WDYT?
> >
> > Any reason to make the new behavior be the default, i.e. break
> > backward compatibility? Why not make this an opt-in feature instead?
>
> I think it's a better default, since it's more in line with user
> expectations. The "Ctrl+mouse whell changes font size" behaviour is
> pretty ubiquitous in browsers, text editors and IDEs. From the top of
> my head, you can change the font size (sometimes called "zoom") using
> this shortcut in Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Eclipse, LibreOffice, Adobe
> Reader, evince, and many, many others. From searching the web, this
> seems to be the default also in Atom, Sublime Text, TextMate,
> Notepad++ and IntelliJ. VSCode stands out by making this optional.
>
> We could of course make it an opt-in feature should we want to do that.
>
> > > I'm not sure exactly how to reformulate the doc string for
> > > mouse-wheel-scroll-amount to fit the new behaviour. I'll have to
> > > think about it a bit more. Do let me know if you have any ideas.
> >
> > I'm not sure we need to change the doc string, but we definitely need
> > to change the :version tag.
>
> Fixed that in the attached patch.
I don't feel comfortable pushing this without an explicit go-ahead.
What do you think?
Thanks in advance.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #121 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2019 01:56:28 +0200
> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com>,
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
> 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
>
> > Fixed that in the attached patch.
>
> I don't feel comfortable pushing this without an explicit go-ahead.
Please go ahead, and thanks.
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Message #124 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> > I don't feel comfortable pushing this without an explicit go-ahead.
>
> Please go ahead, and thanks.
Thank you, Eli. I've now pushed this to master as commit dc8108e109.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #127 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> I've now pushed this to master as commit dc8108e109.
Thank you. While trying your change for bug#28194, I noticed one
edge case, but I'm not sure if this is something that needs to be fixed.
Here is a recipe:
With at least two windows on the same frame:
1. Scroll mouse without Ctrl key in the selected window,
it scrolls the buffer in the selected window;
2. Scroll mouse without Ctrl key in the non-selected window,
it scrolls the buffer in the non-selected window;
3. Scroll mouse with Ctrl key in the selected window,
it changes text scale in the selected window;
4. Scroll mouse with Ctrl key in the non-selected window,
it DOESN'T change text scale in the non-selected window,
instead it changes text scale in the selected window.
What is expected is that mouse scrolling in the non-selected window
will affect the non-selected window. Does this need to be changed?
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Message #130 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> writes:
> What is expected is that mouse scrolling in the non-selected window
> will affect the non-selected window. Does this need to be changed?
I'm not sure, but I think I agree with you that it should be changed.
Perhaps we could try it and see if it feels better?
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #133 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
> > What is expected is that mouse scrolling in the non-selected window
> > will affect the non-selected window. Does this need to be changed?
>
> I'm not sure, but I think I agree with you that it should be changed.
> Perhaps we could try it and see if it feels better?
It turns out there is already a defcustom 'mouse-wheel-follows-mouse'
that controls this behaviour when scrolling. If non-nil (the default)
it will scroll the window that the mouse pointer is over, otherwise
the one where point is. So the job is not that hard: we should just
do what the user wants.
The attached patch makes changing font size respect that option. What
do you think?
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
[0001-Change-font-size-in-correct-window-using-mouse-wheel.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]
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Message #136 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2019 23:58:09 +0200
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com>,
> 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>,
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>
> It turns out there is already a defcustom 'mouse-wheel-follows-mouse'
> that controls this behaviour when scrolling. If non-nil (the default)
> it will scroll the window that the mouse pointer is over, otherwise
> the one where point is. So the job is not that hard: we should just
> do what the user wants.
>
> The attached patch makes changing font size respect that option. What
> do you think?
Please don't forget mentioning this in NEWS (and in the manual, if
applicable).
Thanks.
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Message #139 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>> > What is expected is that mouse scrolling in the non-selected window
>> > will affect the non-selected window. Does this need to be changed?
>>
>> I'm not sure, but I think I agree with you that it should be changed.
>> Perhaps we could try it and see if it feels better?
>
> It turns out there is already a defcustom 'mouse-wheel-follows-mouse'
> that controls this behaviour when scrolling. If non-nil (the default)
> it will scroll the window that the mouse pointer is over, otherwise
> the one where point is. So the job is not that hard: we should just
> do what the user wants.
Thanks for finding mouse-wheel-follow-mouse, I didn't know about it.
> The attached patch makes changing font size respect that option. What
> do you think?
Your refactoring makes code more nice, thanks.
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Message #142 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> Please don't forget mentioning this in NEWS (and in the manual, if
> applicable).
Thanks. Is something like the attached okay? I'm not sure exactly
what you had in mind, since this mostly preserves previous behaviour
also for changing the font size.
(I checked the manual, but it is fine as is, IMO.)
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
[0001-Change-font-size-in-correct-window-using-mouse-wheel.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]
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Message #145 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2019 23:56:22 +0200
> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, Tak Kunihiro <homeros.misasa <at> gmail.com>,
> 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>,
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>, 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
> > Please don't forget mentioning this in NEWS (and in the manual, if
> > applicable).
>
> Thanks. Is something like the attached okay? I'm not sure exactly
> what you had in mind, since this mostly preserves previous behaviour
> also for changing the font size.
What I had in mind was to say that this option now _also_ controls the
font size-changing mouse gestures.
I think the text you wrote is OK, thanks.
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Message #148 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>>>>> On Wed, 9 Oct 2019 23:56:22 +0200, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> said:
Stefan> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>> Please don't forget mentioning this in NEWS (and in the manual, if
>> applicable).
Stefan> Thanks. Is something like the attached okay? I'm not sure exactly
Stefan> what you had in mind, since this mostly preserves previous behaviour
Stefan> also for changing the font size.
Stefan> (I checked the manual, but it is fine as is, IMO.)
I took a look at the manual, it says:
Some mice have a “wheel” which can be used for scrolling. Emacs
supports scrolling windows with the mouse wheel, by default, on most
graphical displays. There is also support for increasing or decreasing
the height of the default face, by default bound to scrolling with the
<Ctrl> modifier. To toggle this feature, use ‘M-x mouse-wheel-mode’.
The variables ‘mouse-wheel-follow-mouse’ and ‘mouse-wheel-scroll-amount’
determine where and by how much buffers are scrolled. The variable
‘mouse-wheel-progressive-speed’ determines whether the scroll speed is
linked to how fast you move the wheel.
That read to me like 'M-x mouse-wheel-mode' is concerned with enabling
the face increase/decrease feature. Should that bit be moved to the
end of the paragraph?
Robert
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Message #151 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> I think the text you wrote is OK, thanks.
Thanks, now pushed as commit ffb7100750.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #154 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com> writes:
> I took a look at the manual, it says:
>
> Some mice have a “wheel” which can be used for scrolling. Emacs
> supports scrolling windows with the mouse wheel, by default, on most
> graphical displays. There is also support for increasing or decreasing
> the height of the default face, by default bound to scrolling with the
> <Ctrl> modifier. To toggle this feature, use ‘M-x mouse-wheel-mode’.
> The variables ‘mouse-wheel-follow-mouse’ and ‘mouse-wheel-scroll-amount’
> determine where and by how much buffers are scrolled. The variable
> ‘mouse-wheel-progressive-speed’ determines whether the scroll speed is
> linked to how fast you move the wheel.
>
> That read to me like 'M-x mouse-wheel-mode' is concerned with enabling
> the face increase/decrease feature. Should that bit be moved to the
> end of the paragraph?
I think you're right that it could be more clear. Patch attached.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
[0001-Clarify-mouse-commands-section-in-manual.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]
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Message #157 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>>>>> On Fri, 11 Oct 2019 02:24:36 +0200, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> said:
Stefan> Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com> writes:
>> That read to me like 'M-x mouse-wheel-mode' is concerned with enabling
>> the face increase/decrease feature. Should that bit be moved to the
>> end of the paragraph?
Stefan> I think you're right that it could be more clear. Patch attached.
LGTM, thanks.
Robert
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Message #160 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Robert Pluim <rpluim <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Stefan> I think you're right that it could be more clear. Patch attached.
>
> LGTM, thanks.
Thanks, pushed as commit ea7610f1f1.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #163 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
> > > > Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
> > >
> > > Does C-x C-+ increase the font size?
>
> > Yes. And "C-x C--" decreases it.
>
> It would be better to make C-+ do it also
> since people used to other applications will try that.
Does that make sense even if we don't change the corresponding C--
binding to decrease the font size?
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #166 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> > > Does C-x C-+ increase the font size?
> > Yes. And "C-x C--" decreases it.
>
> It would be better to make C-+ do it also
> since people used to other applications will try that.
FWIW, if this is about binding `C-+' to do this
by default then I'm against it. (Just one opinion.)
Anyone can add such a binding, if s?he wants.
The argument that "other applications" have such
a binding is a pretty weak one, in general. And
I think it's pretty weak in this case too.
If it's really important to provide this because
users are used to such a binding in other apps
then provide a toggle function (e.g. global minor
mode) that binds that key. But don't bind it
by default. (The mode could also bind `C--', if
that's also important for those used to outside
bindings.)
---
FWIW:
I zoom buffer text and frames (face `default') all
the time - many times a day. I use `C-' plus mouse
wheel, which is also what "other applications" do.
Or I use `S-mouse-1' and `C-S-mouse-1'. Or I use
`C-x C--' and `C-x C-='.
But I make such bindings myself - I don't expect
Emacs to do that by default.
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Message #169 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>> > > > Please tell what is your problem, and why "C-x C-+" doesn't solve it?
>> > >
>> > > Does C-x C-+ increase the font size?
>>
>> > Yes. And "C-x C--" decreases it.
>>
>> It would be better to make C-+ do it also
>> since people used to other applications will try that.
>
> Does that make sense even if we don't change the corresponding C--
> binding to decrease the font size?
Rather not because it will violate user expectations that C-- is symmetric.
Now that we have the mouse zooming, the need in additional keys diminished.
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Message #172 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> > > Yes. And "C-x C--" decreases it.
> >
> > It would be better to make C-+ do it also
> > since people used to other applications will try that.
> Does that make sense even if we don't change the corresponding C--
> binding to decrease the font size?
I think so. It could display a message saying "Use C-x C-- to
decrease font size", generating that based on the keymaps.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> The argument that "other applications" have such
> a binding is a pretty weak one, in general.
It is strong enough, as a general rule, to be a reason tro do this if
there is no particular reason not to.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
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Message #178 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
(Sending a copy also to Bug#28182 where this has been previously
discussed.)
Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:
>> I also wished that C-+ and C-- would scale
>> the screen, just a few months ago.
>>
>> Perhaps we don't need C-- to make the argument negative. Perhaps
>> it is enough that M-- does that.
>
> My preference would be against doing that.
> It's true that `M--' does the same thing -
> so we may not _need_ `C--'. But Control
> is very handy for prefix args.
I suggest binding this to s-- and s-+. Would that be an acceptable
compromise? It would be backwards compatible, and these keys are
currently unbound.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #181 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>>>>> "SK" == Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
SK> I suggest binding this to s-- and s-+. Would that be an acceptable
SK> compromise? It would be backwards compatible, and these keys are
SK> currently unbound.
It's a deal. As long as you also document how the user can also make
them c-- and c-+ safely.
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Message #184 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> >> I also wished that C-+ and C-- would scale
> >> the screen, just a few months ago.
> >>
> >> Perhaps we don't need C-- to make the argument negative.
> >> Perhaps it is enough that M-- does that.
> >
> > My preference would be against doing that.
> > It's true that `M--' does the same thing -
> > so we may not _need_ `C--'. But Control
> > is very handy for prefix args.
>
> I suggest binding this to s-- and s-+. Would that be an acceptable
> compromise? It would be backwards compatible, and these keys are
> currently unbound.
If you're asking me, then my answer is no. I
don't see how it would be a compromise (at all),
and I don't see how it would be backward
compatible. How so?
My reasons against this proposal:
1. It doesn't help with the argument currently
being given, which is that users are used to
`C-+/-'. `s-+/-' doesn't help at all, given
such a habit, does it?
2. We already have `C-x +/-'. Why would we need
or want two such sets of keys, by default?
3. Given the choice (if we were to pick only one)
between `C-x +/-' and `s-+/-', the former is
better, IMO:
a. It's been the default binding for a long time;
Emacs users are already used to it.
b. Some platforms may not have a `Super' modifier
key, by default.
c. Using a repeatable key (`+/-') that's on a
prefix key doesn't waste a repeatable key that's
not on a prefix key. IOW, if on a prefix key,
`+/-' remains available without the prefix key,
for some other repeatable action (by "repeatable",
here, I mean by just holding down a key).
d. If `+/-' is on keymap `ctl-x-map' then it's easy
to move or copy it and the other keys on that
map to another prefix key.
Just one opinion.
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Message #187 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:
> I don't see how it would be backward
> compatible. How so?
I mean that it would not change the current binding for C--.
> 1. It doesn't help with the argument currently
> being given, which is that users are used to
> `C-+/-'. `s-+/-' doesn't help at all, given
> such a habit, does it?
I personally agree with Richard that C-- and C-+ is a better default
and I also think it's okay if negative prefix argument is only on M--.
However, Eli has stated in Bug#28182 that he doesn't want a backward
incompatible change.
AFAICT, s-- and s-+ has some precedence. It's used in Sublime
Text. Atom and VSCode use C-- and C-+. This is from searching the
web.
> 2. We already have `C-x +/-'. Why would we need
> or want two such sets of keys, by default?
Familiarity and ease of use. BTW, we have more than two such keys:
C-x C-+ text-scale-adjust
C-x C-- text-scale-adjust
C-x C-0 text-scale-adjust
C-x C-= text-scale-adjust
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
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Message #190 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
>>>>> "SK" == Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:
SK> AFAICT, s-- and s-+ has some precedence. It's used in Sublime
SK> Text. Atom and VSCode use C-- and C-+.
Never heard of them. But I heard of Chrome.
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Message #193 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
> > I don't see how it would be backward
> > compatible. How so?
>
> I mean that it would not change the current binding for C--.
I see. Yes, thanks. (You meant that,
unlike changing C-+/-, it wouldn't be
backward incompatible.)
> > 1. It doesn't help with the argument currently
> > being given, which is that users are used to
> > `C-+/-'. `s-+/-' doesn't help at all, given
> > such a habit, does it?
>
> I personally agree with Richard that C-- and C-+ is a better default
> and I also think it's okay if negative prefix argument is only on M--.
> However, Eli has stated in Bug#28182 that he doesn't want a backward
> incompatible change.
>
> AFAICT, s-- and s-+ has some precedence. It's used in Sublime
> Text. Atom and VSCode use C-- and C-+. This is from searching the
> web.
OK, but it won't help with a habit of using
`C-+/-' to zoom. That was my point here.
> > 2. We already have `C-x +/-'. Why would we need
> > or want two such sets of keys, by default?
>
> Familiarity and ease of use.
That might be an argument for switching to `s-+/-'
_instead_ of `C-x C-+/-' (familiarity, at least
for Sublime users). But I don't see how it argues
for having both, by default.
> BTW, we have more than two such keys:
> C-x C-+ text-scale-adjust
> C-x C-- text-scale-adjust
> C-x C-0 text-scale-adjust
> C-x C-= text-scale-adjust
Yes. And the `C-0' behavior would still be
needed, using some key sequence.
Which is (IMO) another argument against using
`C-+' and `C--'. `C-x' followed by `C--',
`C-0' or `C-+' kinda makes sense (mnemonic).
Where would we put the `C-0' behavior, for
the proposal to change to `C-+/-'?
Likewise, for convenience, a `s-=' alias
would also still be needed/wanted for `s-+',
for the same reason - no need to use `Shift'.
So we would be talking about some key (maybe
`s-0'?) for what `C-x C-0' does, plus
sacrificing `s-+', `s-=', and `s--'. So four
keys.
Plus apparently keeping `C-x C--', `C-x C-0',
`C-x C-+', and `C-x C-='.
Forcibly Merged 28182 39847.
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Message #200 received at 28182 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
It was suggested to bind `s-+' / `s--', but as many (most?) computers
don't have that keystroke, I don't think that's a solution.
And, as explained many times, we can't rebind `C--' and therefore we
can't rebind `C-+'.
So I'm closing this bug report.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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bug closed, send any further explanations to
39847 <at> debbugs.gnu.org and 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
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