Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Apr 2018 19:55:29 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Apr 13 15:55:28 2018 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50956 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1f74nA-0000EE-Nw for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:55:28 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:49182) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eggert@HIDDEN>) id 1f74n9-0000E2-51 for 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 15:55:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39EFA161631; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:55:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id pGyoWNFD8oFe; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A7AA161642; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Wik7jEj4Le8M; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2DBC6161631; Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#29069: bug#31043: [PATCH] changed presentation in 'File permissions' in 'numeric, modes' To: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <486ecfd6-e29f-71f1-936d-6e41e71c15ca@HIDDEN> <f29aabfe-bb18-cc2f-2557-314a08b45903@HIDDEN> <a8540e0e-9121-4df8-8b8e-8ae79deab904@HIDDEN> <36583967-c081-07fb-cbce-a8226df73638@HIDDEN> <4072cdbb-82b0-3b64-12de-f83c35720397@HIDDEN> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <c751d622-eb56-80e7-bb0f-982e92f3ba5a@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2018 12:55:19 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4072cdbb-82b0-3b64-12de-f83c35720397@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On 04/11/2018 05:44 AM, kalle wrote: > I don't even know if this methodology of > encoding information (I mean "symbolical notation rwx for owner = > symbolical notation rwx = symbolical notation 111= interpreting 111 > numerically in binary = transforming to numerical octal 7") is just used > in this special case or is used more generally throughout the GNU > programs. The symbolic notation's primary use is in the core GNU (and POSIX) utilities. It was introduced in Unix (a predecessor to GNU/Linux) and is standardized by POSIX. The symbolic notation is not generally used elsewhere, so it's good to document it in the coreutils manual. In contrast, octal numbers are generally used throughout computing and mathematics, and we shouldn't have to explain them here. I'd be more sympathetic if octal numbers were required. But users don't have to use them; they can use symbolic modes. That's what symbolic modes were invented for: to help users who don't understand or like octal. The documentation should exploit this, not fight it.
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 11 Apr 2018 12:44:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Apr 11 08:44:53 2018 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45798 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1f6F7N-0001OX-9b for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:44:53 -0400 Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]:60443) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1f6F7L-0001OK-Ix for 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:44:52 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5748310001A; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:44:45 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at netzguerilla.net Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]) by localhost (sal.netzguerilla.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XWDXQgqy1RSt; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:44:43 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2003:dd:ff23:7e01:cd7a:cbd2:a890:5e13] (p200300DDFF237E01CD7ACBD2A8905E13.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:dd:ff23:7e01:cd7a:cbd2:a890:5e13]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A7E2100015; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:44:42 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=projektwerkstatt.de; s=fckp; t=1523450683; bh=sIyAB1CN6wDihuwFGIoywA3yE2buMZ3b8P1alTmv5eQ=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=E5GUK1DsqCGePnpnA/gnKuqa/BvQpD0V5dNvxAh4ufeW94Bb4Pe4VCSDKcFQ95iYx L3vVy1SQyUDbNepQo0eMmbYwsH9NTMs+6bhXOwPK1TYjixl+v6EXWBXI10REZfnGUk iUQM/ZP4dwn7nUW4qYTDAnBhb8RF2TAudPQ+Ne6seuVtak5SWT7iLEQSXp5Su7e535 7DTS/2FIipBeD+wfBVORRG69Oxm6Xq2Mmm/ZOJnyLVawnCy9ellSGmZmAvcAhpDqfI v02xNWoRWafjUCFrq6LEs8xpn9HtRI4YnEBb8JCOO2a1tAVi4pamM/StegqGW3C4og OPEKqVlYhj3kg== Subject: Re: bug#31043: [PATCH] changed presentation in 'File permissions' in 'numeric, modes' To: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <486ecfd6-e29f-71f1-936d-6e41e71c15ca@HIDDEN> <f29aabfe-bb18-cc2f-2557-314a08b45903@HIDDEN> <a8540e0e-9121-4df8-8b8e-8ae79deab904@HIDDEN> <36583967-c081-07fb-cbce-a8226df73638@HIDDEN> From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4072cdbb-82b0-3b64-12de-f83c35720397@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:44:36 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <36583967-c081-07fb-cbce-a8226df73638@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: de-DE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Am 04.04.2018 um 00:10 schrieb Paul Eggert: > On 04/03/2018 12:29 PM, kalle wrote: >> >> But what do you think of my teaching concept, to try to explain why a >> `7' in `755' means =4+2+1=111=rwx="rwx for owner", which is assumed as >> self-evident or intuitive in both the original text and your patch? > > I think it's out of place in the coreutils manual, just as (for example) > the manual need not mention computer keyboard layouts in order to tell > users how to type 'sort -r'. Assuming basic computer concepts simplifies > the manual and makes it easier for typical users to read, which is a win. I find your example far away from the actual problem: computer keyboard layouts and how to define them is important but much more general than 'sort -r' and in my opinion it should be described somewhere (actually keymaps(5),loadkeys(1) and so forth) and be referred to at crucial moments. While for `File Permission', I don't even know if this methodology of encoding information (I mean "symbolical notation rwx for owner = symbolical notation rwx = symbolical notation 111= interpreting 111 numerically in binary = transforming to numerical octal 7") is just used in this special case or is used more generally throughout the GNU programs. In any case it is _not_ just octal, but a specific way of translating numerical octal to a symbolic notation (and that's what I tried to explain in my patch) even if some nerds knew it's meaning by experience. At least it should be referred to the place, where the concept is explained. And referencing to the internet is non an elegant way, as it could be the case, that the person doesn't have any access to it. Assuming that new users necessarily know about this special way of using octal numbers is simply newbie-unfriendly. Imagine someone starting to learn `ls' or `mv' or just 'File Permissions' now directly being stuck with this methodology. What is this person expected to have read before starting learning how to work with the CLI through documentation-systems as `info' or `man' apart from complicated imperialist english language? after my patch proposal, paul eggert wrote: "I think part of the problem is that this is not really the place to explain octal notation; any reader who doesn't know octal before reading the manual is not likely to understand it even with the proposed rewrite. I think we should just give up and assume that the reader knows octal (if they don't they should be using symbolic modes)." The more appropriate way imo would be to look up for a good place for a explanation rather than "giving up" so quickly. kalle
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2018 22:10:30 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 03 18:10:30 2018 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37425 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1f3U8M-0003Pj-EF for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:10:30 -0400 Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:52388) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eggert@HIDDEN>) id 1f3U8K-0003PX-OD for 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:10:29 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08FC316162D; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:10:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id XWKRoisaBalv; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:10:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 139BB161699; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:10:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id NgHiwskt4UGx; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU (Penguin.CS.UCLA.EDU [131.179.64.200]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EBAB916162D; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#31043: [PATCH] changed presentation in 'File permissions' in 'numeric, modes' To: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <486ecfd6-e29f-71f1-936d-6e41e71c15ca@HIDDEN> <f29aabfe-bb18-cc2f-2557-314a08b45903@HIDDEN> <a8540e0e-9121-4df8-8b8e-8ae79deab904@HIDDEN> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN> Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: <36583967-c081-07fb-cbce-a8226df73638@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 15:10:21 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <a8540e0e-9121-4df8-8b8e-8ae79deab904@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) On 04/03/2018 12:29 PM, kalle wrote: > > But what do you think of my teaching concept, to try to explain why a > `7' in `755' means =4+2+1=111=rwx="rwx for owner", which is assumed as > self-evident or intuitive in both the original text and your patch? I think it's out of place in the coreutils manual, just as (for example) the manual need not mention computer keyboard layouts in order to tell users how to type 'sort -r'. Assuming basic computer concepts simplifies the manual and makes it easier for typical users to read, which is a win. > > where would be a place, to formulate the problem `7=4+2+1' > more generally? One place would be: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octal > Why didn't you take over my correction from "are sometimes special" to > "have a special meaning for directories" ? I didn't think that was necessary, since the parenthesized cross-reference already mentioned "Directory". The main point here is that the leading "0" is not necessary, not that excess leading "0"s sometimes have special meanings.
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 3 Apr 2018 19:29:45 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Apr 03 15:29:45 2018 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37362 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1f3Rcn-0006Bb-54 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:29:45 -0400 Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]:49741) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1f3Rcl-0006BM-F7 for 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 15:29:44 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F72110001A; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:29:37 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at netzguerilla.net Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([IPv6:2a00:1828:2000:612::25]) by localhost (sal.netzguerilla.net [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2WEv_wAF3brn; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:29:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2003:dd:ff23:7e01:6181:b30a:d43a:664a] (p200300DDFF237E016181B30AD43A664A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:dd:ff23:7e01:6181:b30a:d43a:664a]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B1828100018; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:29:35 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=projektwerkstatt.de; s=fckp; t=1522783775; bh=y9ba7RGmox6ZMXuMj6zX33odglW0z8ZdOQRFZhDHVdM=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=lJ7TS95SZx0q7rl9NBP8X2ZEnpjNRGgx9/ELUCQxNZDfObhQpzqlK7vmPBxlS9A52 BcPtUzXw1Ps+oexxxck6DjrDNj2gb+2AkwoeZg1fNk0RWcNcAhbsKJMlnxjkPSSurq 99uO2O0skDkVOXupVPZQC6vJKC+iFHjP9ehu5qdG1csGpvQ6Q66DodddRpPDAFA1fQ nhMM+N52BCF0HBmLtERzH0rS7Cs15ls5oQ4TaTuFHEf3/MH1UQ4JXMCKjwiXzl1Zx6 gOSlvzMsCki69Am+TvlM9gGRjdn255anQePOITioxoWqlb1n8+eNqV9HyNfntomxTv D4VWR8un/qm4w== Subject: Re: bug#31043: [PATCH] changed presentation in 'File permissions' in 'numeric, modes' To: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <486ecfd6-e29f-71f1-936d-6e41e71c15ca@HIDDEN> <f29aabfe-bb18-cc2f-2557-314a08b45903@HIDDEN> From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <a8540e0e-9121-4df8-8b8e-8ae79deab904@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 21:29:35 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <f29aabfe-bb18-cc2f-2557-314a08b45903@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: de-DE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) hello, Am 03.04.2018 um 17:45 schrieb Paul Eggert: > Thanks for mentioning the problem. so you see a problem there too? However, I found the proposed rewrite > to be more confusing than the original. It may me that my way of building sentences is quite amendable. I'm not a native english writer. But what do you think of my teaching concept, to try to explain why a `7' in `755' means =4+2+1=111=rwx="rwx for owner", which is assumed as self-evident or intuitive in both the original text and your patch? I think part of the problem is > that this is not really the place to explain octal notation; maybe. But where would be a place, to formulate the problem `7=4+2+1' more generally? and then to just refer to it? any reader > who doesn't know octal before reading the manual is not likely to > understand it even with the proposed rewrite. Because of what, do you think? I think we should just > give up and assume that the reader knows octal (if they don't they > should be using symbolic modes) if they don't miss any important features.. but why already giving up? does it seem so impossible to find a more newbie-friendly solution? . That being said, we could briefly give > an example of how the individual bits are combined into an octal digit, > and rearrange the description to make it more intuitive. I installed the > attached patch to try to improve things. Why didn't you take over my correction from "are sometimes special" to "have a special meaning for directories" ? > > I also merged Bug#31043 with Bug#29069 since they're the same topic. The problem was, that when writing "Bug#29069" in the subject, nobody responded to my patch proposal, which at the end was nearly to frustrating. greetings, kalle
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
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Subject: Re: bug#31043: [PATCH] changed presentation in 'File permissions' in
'numeric, modes'
To: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
References: <486ecfd6-e29f-71f1-936d-6e41e71c15ca@HIDDEN>
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department
Message-ID: <f29aabfe-bb18-cc2f-2557-314a08b45903@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:45:06 -0700
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Thanks for mentioning the problem. However, I found the proposed rewrite
to be more confusing than the original. I think part of the problem is
that this is not really the place to explain octal notation; any reader
who doesn't know octal before reading the manual is not likely to
understand it even with the proposed rewrite. I think we should just
give up and assume that the reader knows octal (if they don't they
should be using symbolic modes). That being said, we could briefly give
an example of how the individual bits are combined into an octal digit,
and rearrange the description to make it more intuitive. I installed the
attached patch to try to improve things.
I also merged Bug#31043 with Bug#29069 since they're the same topic.
--------------03C9A079B000A2DF8F8DCBDB
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From a20bf723b62bb54c32154c6bf0c7c4d9e6e8a708 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2018 08:40:34 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] doc: Clarify octal bits in permissions
* doc/perm.texi (Numeric Modes): Briefly explain octal.
Reorder description to make it more intuitive (Bug#29069).
---
doc/perm.texi | 66 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++----------------------------
1 file changed, 35 insertions(+), 31 deletions(-)
diff --git a/doc/perm.texi b/doc/perm.texi
index af8fa3827..77ec1a59c 100644
--- a/doc/perm.texi
+++ b/doc/perm.texi
@@ -494,57 +494,61 @@ the file to all users.
As an
alternative to giving a symbolic mode, you can give an octal (base 8)
number that represents the mode.
-This number is always interpreted in octal; you do not have to add a
-leading @samp{0}, as you do in C. Mode @samp{0055} is the same as
-mode @samp{55}. (However, modes of five digits or more, such as
-@samp{00055}, are sometimes special. @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.)
-
-A numeric mode is usually shorter than the corresponding symbolic
-mode, but it is limited in that normally it cannot take into account the
-previous file mode bits; it can only set them absolutely.
-The set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits of directories are an exception
-to this general limitation. @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.
-Also, operator numeric modes can take previous file mode bits into
-account. @xref{Operator Numeric Modes}.
The permissions granted to the user,
to other users in the file's group,
and to other users not in the file's group each require three
-bits, which are represented as one octal digit. The three special
+bits: one bit for read, one for write, and one for execute/search permission.
+These three bits are represented as one octal digit;
+for example, if all three are present, the resulting 111 (in binary)
+is represented as the digit 7 (in octal). The three special
mode bits also require one bit each, and they are as a group
represented as another octal digit. Here is how the bits are arranged,
-starting with the lowest valued bit:
+starting with the highest valued bit:
@example
Value in Corresponding
Mode Mode Bit
- Other users not in the file's group:
- 1 Execute/search
- 2 Write
- 4 Read
-
- Other users in the file's group:
- 10 Execute/search
- 20 Write
- 40 Read
+ Special mode bits:
+4000 Set user ID on execution
+2000 Set group ID on execution
+1000 Restricted deletion flag or sticky bit
The file's owner:
- 100 Execute/search
- 200 Write
400 Read
+ 200 Write
+ 100 Execute/search
- Special mode bits:
-1000 Restricted deletion flag or sticky bit
-2000 Set group ID on execution
-4000 Set user ID on execution
+ Other users in the file's group:
+ 40 Read
+ 20 Write
+ 10 Execute/search
+
+ Other users not in the file's group:
+ 4 Read
+ 2 Write
+ 1 Execute/search
@end example
-For example, numeric mode @samp{4755} corresponds to symbolic mode
-@samp{u=rwxs,go=rx}, and numeric mode @samp{664} corresponds to symbolic mode
+For example, numeric mode @samp{4751} corresponds to symbolic mode
+@samp{u=srwx,g=rx,o=x}, and numeric mode @samp{664} corresponds to symbolic mode
@samp{ug=rw,o=r}. Numeric mode @samp{0} corresponds to symbolic mode
@samp{a=}.
+A numeric mode is usually shorter than the corresponding symbolic
+mode, but it is limited in that normally it cannot take into account the
+previous file mode bits; it can only set them absolutely.
+The set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits of directories are an exception
+to this general limitation. @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.
+Also, operator numeric modes can take previous file mode bits into
+account. @xref{Operator Numeric Modes}.
+
+Numeric modes are always interpreted in octal; you do not have to add a
+leading @samp{0}, as you do in C@. Mode @samp{0055} is the same as
+mode @samp{55}. However, modes of five digits or more, such as
+@samp{00055}, are sometimes special (@pxref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}).
+
@node Operator Numeric Modes
@section Operator Numeric Modes
--
2.14.3
--------------03C9A079B000A2DF8F8DCBDB--
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Paul Eggert <eggert@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
Full text available.
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From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#29069
To: bug-coreutils@HIDDEN, assafgordon@HIDDEN, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Message-ID: <e29010d4-ef10-2eee-3655-968fe0817289@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2018 16:43:55 +0000
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hello people.
I once wrote some improvement proposals to the list.
assafgordon@HIDDEN wrote to me
"
You wrote many good suggestions and text improvements.
If you'd like to see them through, the best way is to
offer a patch suitable for inclusion.
For instructions on how to send such patch, please see
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/HACKING
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/README-hacking
As your contribution is significant (more than 10 lines),
it'll also require copyright assignment (see
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html ).
If you prefer not to spend time on making such a patch, that is of
course completely fine. In that case, this will have to wait until
one of the maintainers (or another volunteer) decides to
spend the time required to incorporate these improvements.
"
Since then I extra learned git, to be able to give in the patches
myself. But for my last 2 mails sending in my patch proposals, no
response came...
here now for the 4th time again my patch proposal for chapter 27.3:
>From b250dcdaba02083a0174d9157c655f0dbb586ef6 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 20:56:07 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] changed presentation in 'File permissions' in 'numeric
modes'
I described the numeric modes explaining it's octal representation and
how it is obtained from the symbolic notation.
---
doc/perm.texi | 64
++++++++++++++---------------------------------------------
1 file changed, 15 insertions(+), 49 deletions(-)
diff --git a/doc/perm.texi b/doc/perm.texi
index c94c483..a514998 100644
--- a/doc/perm.texi
+++ b/doc/perm.texi
@@ -491,59 +491,25 @@ the file to all users.
@cindex numeric modes
@cindex file mode bits, numeric
@cindex octal numbers for file modes
-As an
-alternative to giving a symbolic mode, you can give an octal (base 8)
-number that represents the mode.
-This number is always interpreted in octal; you do not have to add a
-leading @samp{0}, as you do in C. Mode @samp{0055} is the same as
-mode @samp{55}. (However, modes of five digits or more, such as
-@samp{00055}, are sometimes special. @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.)
-
-A numeric mode is usually shorter than the corresponding symbolic
-mode, but it is limited in that normally it cannot take into account the
-previous file mode bits; it can only set them absolutely.
-The set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits of directories are an exception
-to this general limitation. @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.
-Also, operator numeric modes can take previous file mode bits into
-account. @xref{Operator Numeric Modes}.
-
-The permissions granted to the user,
-to other users in the file's group,
-and to other users not in the file's group each require three
-bits, which are represented as one octal digit. The three special
-mode bits also require one bit each, and they are as a group
-represented as another octal digit. Here is how the bits are arranged,
-starting with the lowest valued bit:
+As an alternative to giving a symbolic mode, you can give an octal
(with base 8) number that represents the mode.This number is always
interpreted in octal; you do not have to add a leading @samp{0}, as you
do in C. Mode @samp{0055} is the same as mode @samp{55}. Modes of five
digits or more, such as @samp{00055}, have a special meaning for
directories @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.)
+
+A numeric mode is usually shorter than the corresponding symbolic mode,
but it is limited in that normally it cannot take into account the
previous file mode bits; it can only set them absolutely. The
set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits of directories are an exception to
this general limitation. @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}. Also,
operator numeric modes can take previous file mode bits into account.
@xref{Operator Numeric Modes}.
+
+The octal notation can be derived from the symbolic one, as an
intermediate step transforming it into a binary string (1), which is
then easily changed into octal base (2):
+
+(1)For the intermediate step the @samp{r},@samp{w} and @samp{x}-symbols
of the symbolic notation are changed out at the corresponding place by a
@samp{0} or a @samp{1}, according to whether the bits are clear or set
(this works as long as there are no special mode bits, because every
place belongs specifically to one kind of bit), thus transforming e.g.
the string @samp{rwxr-xr--} into @samp{111101100}.Then instead of
overriding the @samp{x}-bits, the special mode bits are represented by
grouping them at the beginning, in the order
suid|guid|sticky/restricted_deletion, thus e.g. describing symbolic
@samp{rwsr-xr-t} as @samp{101111101101}.
+
+(2)Every 3 digits can then be grouped together and described as an
octal digit, following the logic that three binary digits @samp{abc} are
translated into an octal number a*2^2+b*2^1+c*2^0=a*4+b*2+c*1, e.g.:
@example
-Value in Corresponding
-Mode Mode Bit
-
- Other users not in the file's group:
- 1 Execute/search
- 2 Write
- 4 Read
-
- Other users in the file's group:
- 10 Execute/search
- 20 Write
- 40 Read
-
- The file's owner:
- 100 Execute/search
- 200 Write
- 400 Read
-
- Special mode bits:
-1000 Restricted deletion flag or sticky bit
-2000 Set group ID on execution
-4000 Set user ID on execution
+binary octal
+101 5
+111 7
+011 3
@end example
-For example, numeric mode @samp{4755} corresponds to symbolic mode
-@samp{u=rwxs,go=rx}, and numeric mode @samp{664} corresponds to
symbolic mode
-@samp{ug=rw,o=r}. Numeric mode @samp{0} corresponds to symbolic mode
-@samp{a=}.
+thus transforming the binary @samp{101111101101} from the last example
into octal @samp{5755}.
+
@node Operator Numeric Modes
@section Operator Numeric Modes
--
1.9.1
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.
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From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>
Subject: bug#29069
To: bug-coreutils@HIDDEN, assafgordon@HIDDEN, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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hello people.
I once wrote some improvement proposals to the list.
assafgordon@HIDDEN wrote to me
"
You wrote many good suggestions and text improvements.
If you'd like to see them through, the best way is to
offer a patch suitable for inclusion.
For instructions on how to send such patch, please see
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/HACKING
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/README-hacking
As your contribution is significant (more than 10 lines),
it'll also require copyright assignment (see
https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html ).
If you prefer not to spend time on making such a patch, that is of
course completely fine. In that case, this will have to wait until
one of the maintainers (or another volunteer) decides to
spend the time required to incorporate these improvements.
"
Since then I extra learned git, to be able to give in the patches
myself. But for my last 2 mails sending in my patch proposals, no
response came...
here now for the 4th time again my patch proposal for chapter 27.3:
>From b250dcdaba02083a0174d9157c655f0dbb586ef6 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 20:56:07 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] changed presentation in 'File permissions' in 'numeric
modes'
I described the numeric modes explaining it's octal representation and
how it is obtained from the symbolic notation.
---
=C2=A0doc/perm.texi | 64
++++++++++++++---------------------------------------------
=C2=A01 file changed, 15 insertions(+), 49 deletions(-)
diff --git a/doc/perm.texi b/doc/perm.texi
index c94c483..a514998 100644
--- a/doc/perm.texi
+++ b/doc/perm.texi
@@ -491,59 +491,25 @@ the file to all users.
=C2=A0@cindex numeric modes
=C2=A0@cindex file mode bits, numeric
=C2=A0@cindex octal numbers for file modes
-As an
-alternative to giving a symbolic mode, you can give an octal (base 8)
-number that represents the mode.
-This number is always interpreted in octal; you do not have to add a
-leading @samp{0}, as you do in C.=C2=A0 Mode @samp{0055} is the same as
-mode @samp{55}.=C2=A0 (However, modes of five digits or more, such as
-@samp{00055}, are sometimes special.=C2=A0 @xref{Directory Setuid and Se=
tgid}.)
-
-A numeric mode is usually shorter than the corresponding symbolic
-mode, but it is limited in that normally it cannot take into account the
-previous file mode bits; it can only set them absolutely.
-The set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits of directories are an exception
-to this general limitation.=C2=A0 @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.
-Also, operator numeric modes can take previous file mode bits into
-account.=C2=A0 @xref{Operator Numeric Modes}.
-
-The permissions granted to the user,
-to other users in the file's group,
-and to other users not in the file's group each require three
-bits, which are represented as one octal digit.=C2=A0 The three special
-mode bits also require one bit each, and they are as a group
-represented as another octal digit.=C2=A0 Here is how the bits are arran=
ged,
-starting with the lowest valued bit:
+As an alternative to giving a symbolic mode, you can give an octal
(with base 8) number that represents the mode.This number is always
interpreted in octal; you do not have to add a leading @samp{0}, as you
do in C. Mode @samp{0055} is the same as mode @samp{55}.=C2=A0 Modes of f=
ive
digits or more, such as @samp{00055}, have a special meaning for
directories=C2=A0 @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.)
+
+A numeric mode is usually shorter than the corresponding symbolic mode,
but it is limited in that normally it cannot take into account the
previous file mode bits; it can only set them absolutely.=C2=A0 The
set-user-ID and set-group-ID bits of directories are an exception to
this general limitation.=C2=A0=C2=A0 @xref{Directory Setuid and Setgid}.=C2=
=A0 Also,
operator numeric modes can take previous file mode bits into account.=C2=A0
@xref{Operator Numeric Modes}.
+
+The octal notation can be derived from the symbolic one, as an
intermediate step transforming it into a binary string (1), which is
then easily changed into octal base (2):
+
+(1)For the intermediate step the @samp{r},@samp{w} and @samp{x}-symbols
of the symbolic notation are changed out at the corresponding place by a
@samp{0} or a @samp{1}, according to whether the bits are clear or set=C2=
=A0
(this works as long as there are no special mode bits, because every
place belongs specifically to one kind of bit), thus transforming e.g.
the string @samp{rwxr-xr--} into @samp{111101100}.Then instead of
overriding the @samp{x}-bits, the special mode bits are represented by
grouping them at the beginning, in the order
suid|guid|sticky/restricted_deletion, thus e.g. describing symbolic
@samp{rwsr-xr-t} as @samp{101111101101}.
+
+(2)Every 3 digits can then be grouped together and described as an
octal digit, following the logic that three binary digits @samp{abc} are
translated into an octal number a*2^2+b*2^1+c*2^0=3Da*4+b*2+c*1, e.g.:
=C2=A0
=C2=A0@example
-Value in=C2=A0 Corresponding
-Mode=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Mode Bit
-
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Other users not i=
n the file's group:
-=C2=A0=C2=A0 1=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Execute/search
-=C2=A0=C2=A0 2=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Write
-=C2=A0=C2=A0 4=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Read
-
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Other users in th=
e file's group:
-=C2=A0 10=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Execute/search
-=C2=A0 20=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Write
-=C2=A0 40=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Read
-
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The file's owner:
- 100=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Execute/search
- 200=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Write
- 400=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Read
-
-=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Special mode bits=
:
-1000=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Restricted deletion flag or sticky bi=
t
-2000=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Set group ID on execution
-4000=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Set user ID on execution
+binary=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 octal
+101=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 5
+111=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 7
+011=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 3
=C2=A0@end example
=C2=A0
-For example, numeric mode @samp{4755} corresponds to symbolic mode
-@samp{u=3Drwxs,go=3Drx}, and numeric mode @samp{664} corresponds to
symbolic mode
-@samp{ug=3Drw,o=3Dr}.=C2=A0 Numeric mode @samp{0} corresponds to symboli=
c mode
-@samp{a=3D}.
+thus transforming the binary @samp{101111101101} from the last example
into octal @samp{5755}.
+
=C2=A0
=C2=A0@node Operator Numeric Modes
=C2=A0@section Operator Numeric Modes
--=20
1.9.1
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
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MIME format. --------------574FB62A092744D601952522 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit until now, no one responded to my patch proposal neither encorporated it as I see. why not? kalle -------- Weitergeleitete Nachricht -------- Betreff: Fwd: Re: bug#29069: info coreutils file permissions: improvements/bug-report Datum: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 00:55:31 +0100 Von: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> An: bug-coreutils@HIDDEN I have a patch for chapter 27.3, coreutils texinfo-document. greetings, kalle --------------574FB62A092744D601952522 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="patch_numeric_modes" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="patch_numeric_modes" RnJvbSBiMjUwZGNkYWJhMDIwODNhMDE3NGQ5MTU3YzY1NWYwZGJiNTg2ZWY2IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBrYWxsZSA8a2FsbGVAcHJvamVrdHdlcmtzdGF0dC5k ZT4KRGF0ZTogV2VkLCAzIEphbiAyMDE4IDIwOjU2OjA3ICswMTAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRD 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bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
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VMW8VuatYctlySIpesbIPzyqqjtl72RbarEN0J1wPZ8KZip9bkM0Ykz+BPt1z2lduW iLc668hvRdfbwfhQ/n/knABPrQMCb6GKbNMSgNXB8hebrC7XNKt/2N0p3Fbi1/K0rw JV87kT/hE6A07AcX2lR2VEzUNVm52fcgKITFZttMH2G1XpaawDffkwl8u0XUAAPv4U 0kWhlKlMHJhnQ== Subject: Fwd: Re: bug#29069: info coreutils file permissions: improvements/bug-report References: <8987e737-29e5-fdb4-adda-03963d3d8e2f@HIDDEN> To: bug-coreutils@HIDDEN From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <8987e737-29e5-fdb4-adda-03963d3d8e2f@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <97da4c35-1b8b-9f11-ab72-d4035f514162@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2018 00:55:31 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8987e737-29e5-fdb4-adda-03963d3d8e2f@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------D648C4C56B8F3956A466EB8A" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 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format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have a patch for chapter 27.3, coreutils texinfo-document. greetings, kalle --------------D648C4C56B8F3956A466EB8A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="patch_numeric_modes" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="patch_numeric_modes" RnJvbSBiMjUwZGNkYWJhMDIwODNhMDE3NGQ5MTU3YzY1NWYwZGJiNTg2ZWY2IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBrYWxsZSA8a2FsbGVAcHJvamVrdHdlcmtzdGF0dC5k ZT4KRGF0ZTogV2VkLCAzIEphbiAyMDE4IDIwOjU2OjA3ICswMTAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRD SF0gY2hhbmdlZCBwcmVzZW50YXRpb24gaW4gJ0ZpbGUgcGVybWlzc2lvbnMnIGluICdudW1l cmljIG1vZGVzJwoKSSBkZXNjcmliZWQgdGhlIG51bWVyaWMgbW9kZXMgZXhwbGFpbmluZyBp dCdzIG9jdGFsIHJlcHJlc2VudGF0aW9uIGFuZCBob3cgaXQgaXMgb2J0YWluZWQgZnJvbSB0 aGUgc3ltYm9saWMgbm90YXRpb24uCi0tLQogZG9jL3Blcm0udGV4aSB8IDY0ICsrKysrKysr KysrKysrLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tCiAx IGZpbGUgY2hhbmdlZCwgMTUgaW5zZXJ0aW9ucygrKSwgNDkgZGVsZXRpb25zKC0pCgpkaWZm 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bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Jan 2018 21:25:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 19 16:25:37 2018 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35315 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1eceAL-0006e7-8A for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 16:25:37 -0500 Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]:56929) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1eceAJ-0006dt-42 for 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 16:25:36 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E77D9100024; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:25:28 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at netzguerilla.net Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]) by localhost (sal.netzguerilla.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gt9pffjXkeeU; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:25:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2003:dd:ff44:b701:f95e:874a:b5b8:aaa0] (p200300DDFF44B701F95E874AB5B8AAA0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:dd:ff44:b701:f95e:874a:b5b8:aaa0]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2CA4B100022; Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:25:26 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=projektwerkstatt.de; s=fckp; t=1516397127; bh=6rDFRsQqw1j3jUGxgmCq6Cwmjov4igiH6LkY5dtnmJo=; h=From:Subject:To:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=jDG53zqddwzwYvFJwsXS3xO7NNCTYxGTc25rVd5l2uFXLOijPDdZm7ds0sX/5ygSc DqJbR6TuMyPN/+L5loV83YugWafmt53WN4AWNifpZ9A/S5RHjBUlffJ7WA6fId7WCn PZM3ZZc9GU++D85sleqqJZM7iD9kR+Vxt3IAoXU+KHCa9CM++z9NGjZ5L85uHIyF+O lPhUA7p0QUsYXpuMzkPFuJOptawXNuYWIGGxAR1nrlyTGLI12pasci0ZCT0xFiKtr5 hiCMq07CnBXVeGkvI/UiNg8Qg17yu9pihh1NJywOHkLed3NQd4Jb4CKxmZEfOJ6+Ve fhILwhw0GMoXQ== From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#29069: info coreutils file permissions: improvements/bug-report To: Assaf Gordon <assafgordon@HIDDEN>, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <59F78DAE.9070305@HIDDEN> <30cc4360-5e31-89ef-4840-4e4d5408d14d@HIDDEN> <8a2d5c33-724a-23bf-016b-4fb22940ecd8@HIDDEN> <bf294d2c-b7e2-ba37-9522-6053dd3bfec3@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <8987e737-29e5-fdb4-adda-03963d3d8e2f@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2018 22:25:22 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <bf294d2c-b7e2-ba37-9522-6053dd3bfec3@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------879C236DB636989F3BF056D7" Content-Language: de-DE X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------879C236DB636989F3BF056D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 16.12.2017 um 22:14 schrieb Assaf Gordon: > Hello, > > On 2017-12-16 01:52 PM, kalle wrote: >> did you plan to respond my mail? > > Please remember GNU coreutils is maintained by volunteers. > We aim for best effort in incorporating improvement suggestions > from contributors, but there is no "dead line" for such things. > > You wrote many good suggestions and text improvements. > > If you'd like to see them through, the best way is to > offer a patch suitable for inclusion. > For instructions on how to send such patch, please see > https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/HACKING > https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/coreutils.git/tree/README-hacking I made a patch for chapter 27.3 (Numeric modes) in texinfo coreutils. it is attached to this mail. > > As your contribution is significant (more than 10 lines), > it'll also require copyright assignment (see > https://www.gnu.org/licenses/why-assign.html ). I hereby assign the copyright on the attached text to the FSF. Is that enough? > > If you prefer not to spend time on making such a patch, that is of > course completely fine. In that case, this will have to wait until > one of the maintainers (or another volunteer) decides to > spend the time required to incorporate these improvements. > > Also, > It is best to keep these communications public by sending emails to the > mailing list, even if it is a simple question of "what's the status?" or > "any progress?". > > > > regards, > - assaf greetings, kalle --------------879C236DB636989F3BF056D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="patch_numeric_modes" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="patch_numeric_modes" RnJvbSBiMjUwZGNkYWJhMDIwODNhMDE3NGQ5MTU3YzY1NWYwZGJiNTg2ZWY2IE1vbiBTZXAg MTcgMDA6MDA6MDAgMjAwMQpGcm9tOiBrYWxsZSA8a2FsbGVAcHJvamVrdHdlcmtzdGF0dC5k ZT4KRGF0ZTogV2VkLCAzIEphbiAyMDE4IDIwOjU2OjA3ICswMTAwClN1YmplY3Q6IFtQQVRD SF0gY2hhbmdlZCBwcmVzZW50YXRpb24gaW4gJ0ZpbGUgcGVybWlzc2lvbnMnIGluICdudW1l cmljIG1vZGVzJwoKSSBkZXNjcmliZWQgdGhlIG51bWVyaWMgbW9kZXMgZXhwbGFpbmluZyBp 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bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Nov 2017 13:13:43 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Nov 09 08:13:43 2017 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59525 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1eCmeN-0001jN-DN for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2017 08:13:43 -0500 Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]:60733) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1eCmeK-0001j8-B6 for 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 09 Nov 2017 08:13:40 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39F3D100013; Thu, 9 Nov 2017 14:13:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at netzguerilla.net Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]) by localhost (sal.netzguerilla.net [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9OA3A_E0XYXS; Thu, 9 Nov 2017 14:13:31 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2003:dd:fbf2:e201:226:18ff:fee1:ab1b] (p200300DDFBF2E201022618FFFEE1AB1B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:dd:fbf2:e201:226:18ff:fee1:ab1b]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C7FD4100012; Thu, 9 Nov 2017 14:13:31 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=projektwerkstatt.de; s=fckp; t=1510233211; bh=jEaSbYcebJt70h6c9LGiCRQj0fQ9C/+ALxWd58Px+kM=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=pRnecoL2Ii34P7oIXPasXvcG5NuhmtRWYk76/l5vL4pCsJ2wrHjV92lSay6kc80jn sJQUkQwEj3srFLs4SuT2H0Yynjvu0+fvgRvb4cY1DlJz6E8gWxvxBsykZikhc1lhUX Hc5otOZbxHxdoDcxX7IcZ7smBJ9PxfTtI4yTn4guWGsFUIeZyhrXdTRxLKSkO4DO1S DoYLP/fcGPu1XDtY/gd/K7/i0qvjM6Nahema8NuzHYYCebBmULQu/7KP+F8ZsOPxK5 MVE21eBFIAXHwkPfz8x+sItHQ+ELR7DNDNYjjYb6rovx++d9A/KFCNqpt9NwDoIjpJ bpDXm0RZMkt2A== Message-ID: <5A046277.5030408@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2017 15:13:11 +0100 From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: assafgordon@HIDDEN, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#29069: info coreutils file permissions: improvements/bug-report References: <5A02DCF8.4060200@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <5A02DCF8.4060200@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) >> There are many good tutorials and guides available in books and online, >> e.g. https://wiki.debian.org/Permissions . >It by the way has a wrong description about unsetting special mode bits > by doing e.g. `chmod '0755'' (see at "Case 4"), which I will correct as > soon as possible -> more users, less mistakes.. No. Since it is not standard documentation I am a bit exhausted by discussion about corrections in free software community in difficult english just now. I would prefer to not correct this mistake now. What about you? greetings, kalle
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Nov 2017 09:31:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 08 04:31:49 2017 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57572 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1eCMi0-0005m3-TA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 04:31:49 -0500 Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]:59773) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1eCMhz-0005lR-Ip; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 04:31:44 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10CA3100015; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:31:38 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at netzguerilla.net Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([IPv6:2a00:1828:2000:612::25]) by localhost (sal.netzguerilla.net [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qoEt_UPdQS17; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:31:36 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2003:dd:fbf2:e201:219:99ff:fe54:3f58] (p200300DDFBF2E201021999FFFE543F58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:dd:fbf2:e201:219:99ff:fe54:3f58]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 40937100012; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:31:36 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=projektwerkstatt.de; s=fckp; t=1510133496; bh=GfzaFIf+x64BXlS2sI0BFaY6jiUV9YhnRzYGe5QoNAg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=EycCNiNretdZkRlgSbeL5cikUiEUSHf1oLYrI0oPaLFaLTZ6OLPruGYvCM/RCGhDf cIjKu7E8EvjsSvSbO5jOl7JwXEdQc8E0OqgNazNVDiThMYA7z8JMP6y3+sSHg9+bHu VBXSmbb6a9SCzoLiOFymEi5ranUwiskmhNYyrfXOxqSmE8g3HdZiOw6RgYM659TXhi kQEKRGFtd+U+AycGyss53swkt+4MXMKVdC/6++ZzOM+nY9Trit2dg0Sjq/XGsW6ZRB GJJtOoOwnvQZ0i7Yc6koK1Nr5A95Iv9wTLrcp6mrB+Z3xuyQ1KMvaPbIQ2wsmxr8ZN QW9onPlsMwheQ== Message-ID: <5A02DCFC.20509@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 11:31:24 +0100 From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: assafgordon@HIDDEN, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, control <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: improvement proposals texinfo-coreutils,27.3 (numeric modes) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------010002040709040502070501" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010002040709040502070501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit hello there, this e-mail continues the discussion about improvement proposals about info coreutils,section "File permissions". '>>' was me (kalle@HIDDEN writing, '>' was assafgordon@HIDDEN This mail continues the specialized debate about `27.3 (numeric modes)'. >> -27.3: is there an info/man-document, where binary, >> octal, hex-numbers are explained? If, it should be referred to. If not, shouldn't there be one (and where would it fit in? ) ?-- I >> could write the text...Since this documentation assumes the knowledge >> of it.. >Not sure this belongs in the coreutils manual, >however if you send a patch that would go a long way towards considering it for inclusion. I wrote some text,attached to this mail. I think man 7 would be an appropriate place for this. >For comparison, I see that "chmod" manual page in OpenBSD, FreeBSD and >POSIX mention octal code values but do not explain with octal is. >The reader is expected to either use them as-is, or search for more details elsewhere. >https://man.openbsd.org/chmod.1 >https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=chmod >http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/chmod.html In the introduction of the coreutils-texinfo-document, it says: "many sections make no attempt to explain basic concepts in a way suitable for novices. […] get involved in improving this manual" > "However, modes of five digits or more, such as ‘00055’, > are sometimes special. See Directory Setuid and Setgid." >https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Numeric-Modes.html My improvement proposal: Modes of five digits or more, such as `00055', have a special meaning for directories (see Directory Setuid and Setgid) REMARK: the below section is my improvement proposal of the section 27.3. I left the two first paragraphs unchanged here.The above transformations are not incorporated yet for your better overview, since the below part is only a different explanation of the octal model. The above correction proposals thus still have to be worked in. 27.3 Numeric Modes ================== As an alternative to giving a symbolic mode, you can give an octal (base8) number that represents the mode. This number is always interpretedin octal; you do not have to add a leading ‘0’, as you do in C. Mode‘0055’ is the same as mode ‘55’. (However, modes of five digits ormore, such as ‘00055’, are sometimes special. *Note Directory Setuidand Setgid::.) A numeric mode is usually shorter than the corresponding symbolicmode, but it is limited in that normally it cannot take into account theprevious file mode bits; it can only set them absolutely. Theset-user-ID and set-group-ID bits of directories are an exception tothis general limitation. *Note Directory Setuid and Setgid::. Also,operator numeric modes can take previous file mode bits into account.*Note Operator Numeric Modes::. The octal notation can be derived from the symbolic one,as an intermediate step transforming it into a binary string (1), which is then easily changed into octal base (2): (1)For the intermediate step the `r',`w' and `x'-symbols of the symbolic notation are changed out at the corresponding place by a `0' or a `1', according to whether the bits are clear or set (this works as long as there are no special mode bits, because every place belongs specifically to one kind of bit), thus transforming e.g. the string `rwxr-xr--' into `111101100'.Then instead of overriding the `x'-bits, the special mode bits are represented by grouping them at the beginning, in the order suid|guid|sticky/restricted_deletion, thus e.g. describing symbolic `rwsr-xr-t' as `101111101101'. (2)Every 3 digits can then be grouped together and described as octal digits, following the logic that three binary digits `abc' are translated into an octal number a*2^2+b*2^1+c*2^0=a*4+b*2+c*1, e.g.: binary octal 101 5 111 7 011 3 thus transforming the binary `101111101101' from the last example into octal `5755', --------------010002040709040502070501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; name="man_number-rep" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="man_number-rep" QWxsIG5hdHVyYWwgbnVtYmVycyBjYW4gYmUgdW5pcXVlbHkgZGVzY3JpYmVkIHVzaW5nIHRo ZSBwb3dlcnMgb2YgYSBuYXR1cmFsIG51bWJlciBiIChiXjA9MSxiXjE9YixiXjIsLi4uICks dGhlIHNvIGNhbGxlZCBiYXNpcywgd2hpY2ggc2hvdWxkIGJlID4xLgpBIG5hdHVyYWwgbnVt YmVyIG4gY2FuIHRoZW4gYmUgZGVzY3JpYmVkIGJ5IHRoZSBwb3dlcnMgb2YgYiBpbiB0aGUg Zm9ybQoKbj1hX2sqYl5rK2FfKGstMSkqYl4oay0xKSsuLi4rYV8xKmIrYV8wKjEJCgoJLGkg ZnJvbSAwIHRvIGsKCSxhX2kgYmVpbmcgbnVtYmVycyBiZXR3ZWVuIDAgYW5kIGItMSwgYmVp bmcgY2FsbGVkIHRoZSBkaWdpdHMKCSxiXmsgYmVpbmcgdGhlIGJpZ2dlc3QgcG93ZXIgb2Yg Yiwgd2hpY2ggaXMgc21hbGxlciB0aGFuIG4KCgpJdCBpcyBwcm92YWJsZSwgdGhhdCBnaXZl biBhIGJhc2lzIGIgdGhlcmUgaXMgZXhhY3RseSBvbmUgc2VxdWVuY2Ugb2YgZGlnaXRzIGFf ayxhXyhrLTEpLC4uLixhXzEsYV8wJy4gc28gdGhhdCB0aGUgYWJvdmUgZm9ybXVsYSBpcyBj b3JyZWN0LiBCZWNhdXNlIG9mIHRoaXMsIG9uZSBjYW4gcmVwcmVzZW50IHRoZSBudW1iZXIg J24nIGJ5IHRoaXMgc2VxdWVuY2Ugb2YgZGlnaXRzICdhX2thXyhrLTEpLi4uYV8xYV8wJy4g VGhlIGJpZ2dlciAnYicgaXMsIHRoZSBzaG9ydGVyIHRoZSBzZXF1ZW5jZSBhbmQgdmljZSB2 ZXJzYS4KCkZvciBnZW5lcmFsbHkgcmVwcmVzZW50aW5nIG5hdHVyYWwgbnVtYmVycyB0byBi YXNpcyBiLCBvbmUgdGh1cyBuZWVkcyBiIGRpZmZlcmVudCBzeW1ib2xzIGZvciB0aGUgZGln aXRzIDAsLi4uLGItMS5DbGFzc2ljYWx5IG9uZSB1c2VzIHRoZSBoaW5kby1hcmFiaWMgZGln aXRzIDAsMSwyLDMsNCw1LDYsNyw4LDkgYnV0IGZvciBleGFtcGxlIHRvIHRoZSBiYXNlICdz aXh0ZWVuJyBvbmUgdXNlcyB0aGUgc3ltYm9scyAwLDEsMiwzLDQsNSw2LDcsOCw5LEEsQixD LEQsRSxGLgoKQXMgYW4gZXhhbXBsZSwgbGV0IHVzIHJlcHJlc2VudCB0aGUgbnVtYmVyICd0 d29odW5kcmVkdGhyZWUnIHRvIHRoZSBiYXNpcyAnZml2ZSc6CjVeMz0xMjUgaXMgdGhlIGJp Z2dlc3QgcG93ZXIgb2YgZml2ZSBzbWFsbGVyIHRoYW4gJ3R3b2h1bmRyZWR0aHJlZScsZml0 dGluZyBvbmUgdGltZSBpbnRvIG4uIFRodXMgYV8zIGlzIDEuIAo1XjI9MjUgZml0cyAzIHRp bWVzIGludG8gdGhlIHJlc3QsIGFfMiBiZWluZyA9MywgNV4xPTUgZml0dGluZyB6ZXJvIHRp bWVzIGluIHRoZSBuZXcgcmVzdCwgYV8xIGJlaW5nID0wLCA1XjA9MSBmaXR0aW5nIDMgdGlt ZXMgaW50byB0aGUgbGFzdCByZXN0LCBhXzAgYmVpbmcgPTMKVGh1cyB0aGUgcmVwcmVzZW50 YXRpb24gdG8gdGhlIGJhc2lzIDUgIGZvciB0aGUgbnVtYmVyICd0d29odW5kcmVkdGhyZWUn IGdpdmVzIHVzIDEzMDMuCgpPbiB0aGUgaGFyZHdhcmUgc2NhbGUgb2YgaW5mb3JtYXRpb24g cHJvY2Vzc2luZywgb25lIHVzdWFsbHkgZGlzdGluZ3Vpc2hlcyBiZXR3ZWVuIHR3byBzdGF0 ZXMsIGFuZCBjb2RlcyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBieSBzZXF1ZW5jZXMgb2YgdGhlc2Ugc3RhdGVz LCB1c2luZyB0aGUgZGlnaXRzICcwJyBhbmQgJzEnIHRvIHJlcHJlc2VudCB0aGVtLiBUaGUg c2VxdWVuY2Ugb2YgemVyb3MgYW5kIG9uZXMgY2FuIHRodXMgYmUgaW50ZXJwcmV0ZWQgYXMg YSBudW1iZXIgdG8gdGhlIGJhc2lzIDIsIGNhbGxlZCBhIGJpbmFyeSBudW1iZXIuClVzdWFs bHkgdGhpcyByZXByZXNlbnRhdGlvbiBpcyBkZW5zaWZpZWQgd2hlbiBjaGFuZ2luZyB0aGUg YmFzaXMgaW4gdGhhdCB3YXksIHRoYXQgIGEgZml4ZWQgYW1vdW50IG9mICdiaW5hcnkgZGln aXRzJyAodXN1YWxseSAzIG9yIDQgb2YgdGhlbSkgY29ycmVzcG9uZCB0byBkaWdpdHMgaW4g YW5vdGhlciBiYXNpcyAodXN1YWxseSA4IFtvY3RhbF0gYW5kIDE2IFtoZXhhZGVjaW1hbF0p IGFuZCByZXBsYWNlIHRoZW0gYnkgaXQuSW4gc29tZSBwcm9ncmFtbWluZyBsYW5ndWFnZXMg YXMgQyB0aGV5IGFyZSBwcmVmaXhlZCBieSBhIGAwJyAob2N0YWwpIG9yIGAweCcgKGhleGFk ZWNpbWFsKS4KVGh1cyAwMTEwMTExMDAxMDEgKGJpbmFyeSkgYmVjb21lcyAwMzM0NSAob2N0 YWwpIG9yIDB4Q0U5IChoZXhhZGVjaW1hbCkuCgpCZWNhdXNlIDcgYml0cyAoIHNob3J0IGZv ciAnYmluYXJ5IGRpZ2l0cycpIHdoZXJlIHVzZWQgZm9yIGVhY2ggY2hhcmFjdGVyIGluIHRo ZSBBU0NJSSAoMSkgY2hhcmFjdGVyIHNldCBhbmQgOCBpbiB0aGUgZXh0ZW5kZWQgZm9ybWF0 cyBzdWNoIGFzIExBVElOLTEsIGl0IGlzIHVzZWZ1bCB0byBpbnRlcnByZXQgOCBiaXRzIChj YWxsZWQgYSAnYnl0ZScpIGFzIGJhc2ljIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uYWwgdW5pdCwgd2hpY2ggY2Fu IGJlIGRlc2NyaWJlZCBieSAyIGhleGFkZWNpbWFsIGRpZ2l0cy4K --------------010002040709040502070501--
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at 29069) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Nov 2017 09:31:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Nov 08 04:31:42 2017 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57567 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1eCMhx-0005le-WD for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 04:31:42 -0500 Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]:35689) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1eCMhw-0005lN-CA; Wed, 08 Nov 2017 04:31:41 -0500 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432E7100013; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:31:34 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at netzguerilla.net Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([IPv6:2a00:1828:2000:612::25]) by localhost (sal.netzguerilla.net [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NadeqRnbEfUS; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:31:32 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2003:dd:fbf2:e201:219:99ff:fe54:3f58] (p200300DDFBF2E201021999FFFE543F58.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:dd:fbf2:e201:219:99ff:fe54:3f58]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7AAED100012; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 10:31:32 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=projektwerkstatt.de; s=fckp; t=1510133492; bh=ssvTpCx9ze9QP6Zn/asdMP8zfCwmA6fK7cU7r2jenUs=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=Jjuq+zCRy6hfzG3VV7VtBWvOmkPGdOy9RZhRfdDDSpvVvgX1s9pC1QAi6mlwI7DVs h1PReUAvJTU+hwYeT3pLTg7JqTkVQVIY75R9tfAEBzuOMTrKTEnyPRXP4bllqglJy1 I/B5nV2/o3cB6anER71te5fPin/iw3ADm5sIcOEa79Uo1wXtM1vgzE9Wb0YkQ97acz KIvO1r23M1M/ruKoxsnoXpOb3W1KYThaI2rOfBd46UMHfMUrsDbgYc/MuyZzMDxq3b YW8ciG7GtMa+dI6y7B75Cd+VGQGdhK9Ex3HdTZGj7HsjWae3sPlVdv++5aE+RpjwhD hL7vQxMTteaYQ== Message-ID: <5A02DCF8.4060200@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2017 11:31:20 +0100 From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: assafgordon@HIDDEN, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, control <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#29069: info coreutils file permissions: improvements/bug-report Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 29069 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) hi, the parts concerning 27.3 (numeric modes) have been put into a different e-mail by me. >On 2017-10-30 02:38 PM, kalle wrote: >> here some improvement proposals/bug report on info coreutils file permissions: >> >> -in my opinion it would be good to explain the general idea bihind the file permissions a bit more. what the issues are etc. Elese one doesn't really understand, what all the detailed fuss is about. -why >> is running a file considered different from reading one? Fact is, >> that this point underlies the concept of symbolic mode with it's `rwx'. - >There is a trade-off between being a full-blown unix tutorial and a >manual for coreutils. I thought that `man' does the short reference part and info was a bit more detailed. The wiki.debian.org/Permissions-tutorial is even shorter than this texinfo-document actually is and also doesn't motivate the permission concept. >There are many good tutorials and guides available in books and online, >e.g. https://wiki.debian.org/Permissions . IMO the advantage of texinfo is, that it is nearly always by the hand and is a standard documentation. The disadvantage of the debian-wiki-tutorial is, that it uses a debian-specific platform while handling general content, thus unnecessarily wasting resources in form of human time and restricting accessability, in the sense that not all GNU-users would look at this site. It by the way has a wrong description about unsetting special mode bits by doing e.g. `chmod '0755'' (see at "Case 4"), which I will correct as soon as possible -> more users, less mistakes.. What do YOU think should be the character of an info-file? >To make this discussion more concrete, it would help if you send specific patches for the paragraph you'd like to change, with suggested wording. As it's about the motivation of the concept I would prefer to not help out with a patch since I myself am a learner. >> 27.1,end of the first section: add the sentence "They have a different meaning, according to wether they are directories or not" >Each relevant bullet points in that page end with "... for Directories, >this means [...]". I think it is better to write this before the bullet points to make it clear, that the concept of "read"/"write"/etc. is different whether it is a regualar file or a directory rather than you have to interprete these terms differently according to whether the target file is a regular file or a directory. >> 27.2.4, part "or already had execute permission": had execute permission for which user category? for the one in question or for any? >Any category. >The last sentence in that page says: >"gives all users permission [...] if anyone could execute them before". yes, it says this, but it relates to the example `a+X', where also _any_one would get executability. my patch: Add "for anyone" to the sentence "already had execute permission". >> -explain more fundamentally the relationship between file permission >> rights and the rights of the corresponding directory , for example >> regarding to deletion: who has the right to delete file /b/a? users >> with writing permission on a AND those withrmission on b? >I think this is a good suggestion (though perhaps not specific to >coreutils). Where else would be the place to write about this? >We recently had a related discussion about that in 'sed', >where users were surprised that "sed --inplace" can modify a read-only file. >https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-sed/2017-06/msg00000.html >Similarly on gawk: >https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gawk/2015-06/msg00000.html >> 27.4: wouldn't it be better to talk about 'operators _in_ numeric >> mode' rather than from an 'operator numeric mode', since "numeric >> mode" is an atrribute? >(I'll leave this to native English speakers) No native English speakers answering... >> >-27.5: it is said, that "a command like `chmod' does not >> affect the set-user-id, unless […] sets them in a numeric mode".But >> also, the example states that `chmod 0755' or `mkdir -m 0755' >> doesn't change set-user/group-id- bits. >> >> For me, this doesn't fit together,since the `0' in `0755' explicitly sets all special mode bits to zero. >There is some subtlety here, which perhaps can be explained better (patches are welcomed!). >Setting (=turning on) sticky/setuid/setgid bits using the 4th octal digit works as expected (i.e. chmod 4775 DIR). >In GNU's chmod(1), setting the 4th digit to zero *does not* clear those bits, it preserves them (i.e. does not change them if they are set). >To clear them, one needs to specify *five* octal digits: 00755. >This is explained in the second paragraph of section 27.5: >"Therefore, a command like chmod does not affect the set-user-ID or set-group-ID bits of a directory unless the user specifically mentions them in a symbolic mode, or uses an operator numeric mode such as ‘=755’, or sets them in a numeric mode, or clears them in a numeric mode that has **five or more** octal digits." >https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Directory-Setuid-and-Setgid.html "does not affect" should be replaced by "does not clear" (because chmod does affect special mode bits when setting them), "mentions" replaced by "clears", "or sets them in a numeric mode" has to be taken away (this is what I wanted to tell by saying that 0755 is an explicit mentioning in numeric mode -> because this shouldn't work, numeric mode shouldn't work for clearing special mode bits). >The last paragraph on said page also mentions: >"The GNU behavior with numeric modes of four or fewer digits is intended for scripts portable to systems that preserve these bits; the behavior with numeric modes of five or more digits is for scripts portable to systems that do not preserve the bits." I don't really understand this paragraph. >The wording could also be improved in section "27.3 Numeric Modes", which only mentions this in passing: > "However, modes of five digits or more, such as ‘00055’, > are sometimes special. See Directory Setuid and Setgid." >https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Numeric-Modes.html My improvement proposal: Modes of five digits or more, such as `00055', have a special meaning for directories (see Directory Setuid and Setgid) The sentence before, "mode `0055' is the same as `55'", is also not very neat, since it doesn't explain why it is so and if it has something to do with putting `0' in front when using the language `C'. >> -27.5,last section, it says: "this behavior is a GNU extension". Which behavior is meant? >This refers to the preceding paragraph, dealing with "if you want to clear these bits". I propose to replace "This behavior" by "This last behavior" to make it clearer. >The behavior differs from other systems (e.g. FreeBSD), >where "chmod 0775" indeed clears the suid bit. I think it should also be explained in chapter 27, what the default permissions are, when creating a file etc.And also: who can change the permissions, and how?There has to be at least a reference In the menu 27, there is written about "ANDing" and "ORing".These terms doesn't appear in the appropriate section, namely 27.4. >> greetings, kalle >Thank you for raising these issues. >If you'd like to suggest better wordings, please do send a patches >(preferably one patch for each section/topic). >I'm marking this as "not-a-bug", but keeping it open >until we either improve these items or decide to keep them as-is. >regards, > - assaf
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Assaf Gordon <assafgordon@HIDDEN>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
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Subject: Re: bug#29069: info coreutils file permissions:
improvements/bug-report
To: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>, 29069 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
control <at> debbugs.gnu.org
References: <59F78DAE.9070305@HIDDEN>
From: Assaf Gordon <assafgordon@HIDDEN>
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stop
Hello,
On 2017-10-30 02:38 PM, kalle wrote:
> here some improvement proposals/bug report on info coreutils file
> permissions:
>
> -in my opinion it would be good to explain the general idea bihind
> the file permissions a bit more. what the issues are etc. Elese one
> doesn't really understand, what all the detailed fuss is about. -why
> is running a file considered different from reading one? Fact is,
> that this point underlies the concept of symbolic mode with it's
> `rwx'. -
There is a trade-off between being a full-blown unix tutorial and a
manual for coreutils.
There are many good tutorials and guides available in books and online,
e.g. https://wiki.debian.org/Permissions .
To make this discussion more concrete, it would help if you send
specific patches for the paragraph you'd like to change, with suggested
wording.
> 27.1,end of the first section: add the sentence "They have a
> different meaning, according to wether they are directories or not"
Each relevant bullet points in that page end with "... for Directories,
this means [...]".
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Mode-Structure.html
> 27.2.4, part "or already had execute permission": had execute
> permission for which user category? for the one in question or for
> any?
Any category.
The last sentence in that page says:
"gives all users permission [...] if anyone could execute them before".
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Conditional-Executability.html
> -explain more fundamentally the relationship between file permission
> rights and the rights of the corresponding directory , for example
> regarding to deletion: who has the right to delete file /b/a? users
> with writing permission on a AND those withrmission on b?
I think this is a good suggestion (though perhaps not specific to
coreutils).
We recently had a related discussion about that in 'sed',
where users were surprised that "sed --inplace" can modify a read-only file.
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-sed/2017-06/msg00000.html
Similarly on gawk:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gawk/2015-06/msg00000.html
> 27.4: wouldn't it be better to talk about 'operators _in_ numeric
> mode' rather than from an 'operator numeric mode', since "numeric
> mode" is an atrribute?
(I'll leave this to native English speakers)
> -27.3: is there an info/man-document, where binary,
> octal, hex-numbers are explained? If, it should be referred to. If
> not, shouldn't there be one (and where would it fit in? ) ?-- I
> could write the text...Since this documentation assumes the knowledge
> of it..
Not sure this belongs in the coreutils manual,
however if you send a patch that would go a long way towards considering
it for inclusion.
For comparison, I see that "chmod" manual page in OpenBSD, FreeBSD and
POSIX mention octal code values but do not explain with octal is.
The reader is expected to either use them as-is, or search for more
details elsewhere.
https://man.openbsd.org/chmod.1
https://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=chmod
http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/chmod.html
>
-27.5: it is said, that "a command like `chmod' does not
> affect the set-user-id, unless […] sets them in a numeric mode".But
> also, the example states that `chmod 0755' or `mkdir -m 0755'
> doesn't change set-user/group-id- bits.
>
> For me, this doesn't fit
> together,since the `0' in `0755' explicitly sets all special mode
> bits to zero.
There is some subtlety here, which perhaps can be explained better
(patches are welcomed!).
Setting (=turning on) sticky/setuid/setgid bits using the 4th octal
digit works as expected (i.e. chmod 4775 DIR).
In GNU's chmod(1), setting the 4th digit to zero *does not* clear those
bits, it preserves them (i.e. does not change them if they are set).
To clear them, one needs to specify *five* octal digits: 00755.
This is explained in the second paragraph of section 27.5:
"Therefore, a command like chmod does not affect the set-user-ID or
set-group-ID bits of a directory unless the user specifically mentions
them in a symbolic mode, or uses an operator numeric mode such as
‘=755’, or sets them in a numeric mode, or clears them in a numeric mode
that has **five or more** octal digits."
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Directory-Setuid-and-Setgid.html
The last paragraph on said page also mentions:
"The GNU behavior with numeric modes of four or fewer digits is intended
for scripts portable to systems that preserve these bits; the behavior
with numeric modes of five or more digits is for scripts portable to
systems that do not preserve the bits."
The wording could also be improved in section "27.3 Numeric Modes",
which only mentions this in passing:
"However, modes of five digits or more, such as ‘00055’,
are sometimes special. See Directory Setuid and Setgid."
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/Numeric-Modes.html
> -27.5,last section, it says: "this behavior is a GNU
> extension". Which behavior is meant?
This refers to the preceding paragraph, dealing with "if you want to
clear these bits".
The behavior differs from other systems (e.g. FreeBSD),
where "chmod 0775" indeed clears the suid bit.
> greetings, kalle
Thank you for raising these issues.
If you'd like to suggest better wordings, please do send a patches
(preferably one patch for each section/topic).
I'm marking this as "not-a-bug", but keeping it open
until we either improve these items or decide to keep them as-is.
regards,
- assaf
bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Oct 2017 18:34:53 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Oct 30 14:34:53 2017 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42580 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1e9Eth-0002es-IY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:34:53 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:55351) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1e9Etf-0002eb-93 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:34:51 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1e9EtZ-0003j5-Cj for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:34:46 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,T_DKIM_INVALID autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::11]:56688) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1e9EtZ-0003iv-9X for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:34:45 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:46316) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1e9EtY-0008W9-6n for bug-coreutils@HIDDEN; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:34:45 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1e9EtV-0003fW-0j for bug-coreutils@HIDDEN; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:34:44 -0400 Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([217.11.57.120]:40155) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <kalle@HIDDEN>) id 1e9EtU-0003cc-NR for bug-coreutils@HIDDEN; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 14:34:40 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7B0FB100017 for <bug-coreutils@HIDDEN>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:34:36 +0100 (CET) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at netzguerilla.net Received: from mail.netzguerilla.net ([IPv6:2a00:1828:2000:612::25]) by localhost (sal.netzguerilla.net [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TJyvmTxXZ7Y9 for <bug-coreutils@HIDDEN>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:34:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2003:dd:fbd3:4e01:5604:a6ff:fed8:66af] (p200300DDFBD34E015604A6FFFED866AF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [IPv6:2003:dd:fbd3:4e01:5604:a6ff:fed8:66af]) by mail.netzguerilla.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 445A3100015 for <bug-coreutils@HIDDEN>; Mon, 30 Oct 2017 19:34:35 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=projektwerkstatt.de; s=fckp; t=1509388475; bh=rJld57qMyEVYBI+Rh1wbM2BuVOkQemgemBEdVCLC5eg=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=HJtJ9fFle09WoRPV7aeT8OY1oLeGGagmTYAWyCMkYI191DoRGLncBaESxgrqQ6Uc+ 6sAIM/UdFuy2WOmJ2cmmwJ+UMsTnrRfJQCv7SrETIKPekBKPw+je8EsucPkiEJVq0R SzNmb0qgEzj7KWuLxDlHX13AX0AjK9WE/t5M4ndFkaD/w/nJlXfUpd5MP+bNpCdEzw fhY/Bzgo/vQaiH7azLo989JTTrku667jdMLY7V0xSaLKTDH610ZrZTzXpOCVeWW01b Zj43EcG8LzuGKW8mg5HvQFJMUnBONVrbEKn7SqoyRDjrEGlC1tJpSZkOtLKPrZDNFI M7Q5cbN84Ek4A== Message-ID: <59F78DAE.9070305@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2017 21:38:06 +0100 From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Icedove/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bug-coreutils@HIDDEN Subject: info coreutils file permissions: improvements/bug-report Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 2001:4830:134:3::11 X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -5.0 (-----) hello, here some improvement proposals/bug report on info coreutils file permissions: -in my opinion it would be good to explain the general idea bihind the file permissions a bit more. what the issues are etc. Elese one doesn't really understand, what all the detailed fuss is about. -why is running a file considered different from reading one? Fact is, that this point underlies the concept of symbolic mode with it's `rwx'. -27.1,end of the first section: add the sentence "They have a different meaning, according to wether they are directories or not" -27.2.4, part "or already had execute permission": had execute permission for which user category? for the one in question or for any? -explain more fundamentally the relationship between file permission rights and the rights of the corresponding directory , for example regarding to deletion: who has the right to delete file /b/a? users with writing permission on a AND those withrmission on b? 27.4: wouldn't it be better to talk about 'operators _in_ numeric mode' rather than from an 'operator numeric mode', since "numeric mode" is an atrribute? -27.3: is there an info/man-document, where binary, octal, hex-numbers are explained? If, it should be referred to. If not, shouldn't there be one (and where would it fit in? ) ?-- I could write the text...Since this documentation assumes the knowledge of it.. -27.5: it is said, that "a command like `chmod' does not affect the set-user-id, unless [=E2=80=A6] sets them in a numeric mode".But also, th= e example states that `chmod 0755' or `mkdir -m 0755' doesn't change set-user/group-id- bits. For me, this doesn't fit together,since the `0' in `0755' explicitly sets all special mode bits to zero. -27.5,last section, it says: "this behavior is a GNU extension". Which behavior is meant? And if it concerns the whole section 27.5, it should be put right at the beginning. greetings, kalle
kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>:bug-coreutils@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-coreutils@HIDDEN:bug#29069; Package coreutils.
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