GNU bug report logs - #29550
27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:19:45 +0300

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
accidentally, especially with the British keyboard layout where the key
with the apostrophe and the @ sign is adjacent to the key with the
number sign and tilde: Alt+Shift+<apostrophe> becomes M-@ (mark-word),
Alt+Shift+<number sign> becomes M-~ (not-modified).  When Emacs is quit
without further modifying a buffer marked clean with this function, the
changes are lost.  Certainly this scenario is not very probable, but
given that stuff like ‘upcase-region’ is disabled, I thought this one
can get disabled too.  I was nearly bitten by this, and I'd count myself
as a relatively experienced user :)

Find attached a patch disabling this command.


In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.25)
 of 2017-12-03 built on alpha
Repository revision: 9d7f0e27e0592132c1b5b9c280192333eaf288b8
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11905000
System Description:	Ubuntu 17.10

Recent messages:
next-line: End of buffer
Modification-flag cleared
Saving file /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org...
Wrote /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org
Mark set
Saving file /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org...
Wrote /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org
Type "q" in help window to restore its previous buffer.
Mark set
C-, is undefined [2 times]

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-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
			 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
			 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427

[0001-lisp-files.el-not-modified-Disable-this-function.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Message #8 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
Cc: 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 05:37:21 +0200

> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:19:45 +0300
> 
> I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
> disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
> accidentally

FWIW, I use this command many times every day, with no data loss.
Just one data point.

Message #11 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:58:28 -0500

Previous times this came up:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
(a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
(previous maintainer)

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
(previous+N maintainer)

Obviously, this calls for a poll!

(Please don't have a poll.)

Message #14 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 12:49:08 +0300

On 2017-12-04 05:37 +02, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
>> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:19:45 +0300
>> 
>> I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
>> disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
>> accidentally
>
> FWIW, I use this command many times every day, with no data loss.
> Just one data point.
>

There probably are some disabled commands that each of us use all the
time.  ‘erase-buffer’, ‘upcase-region’ and ‘downcase-region’ are some
for me.  I think ‘not-modified’ is at least as risky as those commands
given it can be hit accidentally, maybe more easily, as I've said
previously, for someone using a keyboard where tilde is easily
(mis-)typed (in my British layout keyboard it's just to the left of the
big return button: jkl;' then #/~), and indeed would be «confusing for
beginners», quoting the disabled command buffer.  Also, from Glenn
Morris' message in this thread, there seems to be two other times in
history where a similar request to mine has been made.  If my patch is
refused I'll just have it disabled in my config, but I truly think that
this command, bound to a non-prefixed binding in the global map, is
potentially confusing and dangerous for who doesn't already know it,
beginner or not; if we have upcase/downcase-region disabled, this should
be disabled too.

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
			 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
			 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427

Message #17 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 13:06:18 +0300

On 2017-12-04 12:58 -05, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> wrote:
> Previous times this came up:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> (previous maintainer)

Here we have a *maintainer* that has lost some data accidentally hitting
this key.

> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> (previous+N maintainer)
>
> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>
> (Please don't have a poll.)

Why not?  It might be the case that this command has now became less
popular (for example it's not mentioned in the C-h t tutorial).  Given
how easy it's to re-enable it for its users, I see no reason for not
disabling it by default for protecting the uninitiated.  Quoting
"(emacs) Disabling":

,----
| Disabling a command means that invoking it interactively asks for
| confirmation from the user.  The purpose of disabling a command is to
| prevent users from executing it by accident; we do this for commands
| that might be confusing to the uninitiated.
`----

(on a side note, shouldn't ‘en/disable-command’ use ‘custom-file’ or
‘user-init-file’ instead of trying to locate .emacs itself?)

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
			 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
			 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427

Message #20 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 21:06:22 +0200

Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Previous times this came up:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> (previous maintainer)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> (previous+N maintainer)
>
> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>
> (Please don't have a poll.)

:-)

I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default.  It's a
lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
disabled...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #23 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>,
 Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 02:06:55 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

tags 29550 + patch
quit

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Previous times this came up:
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
>> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
>> (previous maintainer)
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
>> (previous+N maintainer)
>>
>> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>>
>> (Please don't have a poll.)
>
> :-)
>
> I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default.  It's a
> lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
> disabled...

I agree with Lars here, and Stefan Monnier in the above thread, that
it should be disabled.

I don't really understand the basic controversy here.  It should at
worst be a minor inconvenience for anyone who do wish to use it, while
it could save many other users some big headaches.

So I'll just jump in at the deep end and ask... Are there any
objections to the attached patch?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

[0001-Disable-not-modified-command-by-default.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #28 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: self <at> gkayaalp.com, rgm <at> gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 10:20:58 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 02:06:55 +0200
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>, 
> 	29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> 
> >> Previous times this came up:
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> >> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
> >>
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> >> (previous maintainer)
> >>
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> >> (previous+N maintainer)
> >>
> >> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
> >>
> >> (Please don't have a poll.)
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default.  It's a
> > lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
> > disabled...
> 
> I agree with Lars here, and Stefan Monnier in the above thread, that
> it should be disabled.
> 
> I don't really understand the basic controversy here.  It should at
> worst be a minor inconvenience for anyone who do wish to use it, while
> it could save many other users some big headaches.

The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.

> So I'll just jump in at the deep end and ask... Are there any
> objections to the attached patch?

The previous discussions provide objections, don't they?

Message #31 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>,
 Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>,
 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 09:35:32 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.

OK, that makes sense.  If that's a common use case, disabling it by
default might be more trouble than it's worth.

I suggest to close this bug report as wontfix to make the decision
against this proposal clear.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #34 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: self <at> gkayaalp.com, rgm <at> gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 10:59:50 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 09:35:32 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>, Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>, 
> 	29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I suggest to close this bug report as wontfix to make the decision
> against this proposal clear.

Fine with me, thanks.

Message #37 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: self <at> gkayaalp.com, rgm <at> gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>,
 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 10:01:48 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.

Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?

I mean, the same argumentation could be used for a number of disabled
commands, like `narrow-to-region' which I use a lot and always have to
re-enable when I'm working in -Q.  And `not-modified' is much more
dangerous for users than `narrow-to-region', especially since it's bound
to a key people may hit by accident (`M-~'), while `narrow-to-region' is
much more difficult to do so with.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #40 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: self <at> gkayaalp.com, rgm <at> gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 11:28:04 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>,  rgm <at> gnu.org,  self <at> gkayaalp.com,
>   29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 10:01:48 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> > lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> > default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
> 
> Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
> shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?

I just explained what's the controversy, that's all.

Message #43 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: self <at> gkayaalp.com, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 10:58:49 +0200

On Sep 29 2019, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> wrote:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
>
>> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
>> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
>> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
>
> Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
> shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?

How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab <at> linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

Message #46 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
Cc: self <at> gkayaalp.com, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 12:05:21 +0200

Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org> writes:

> How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?

That's possible, but I was also wondering whether there should be an
"emacs -Q-but-not-so-much" (or whatever) switch to Emacs, or a standard
common-maintainer-things.el file one could load.

But that's probably an endless rabbit hole to go down into, so I think
we should just settle on saying "-l my-maintainer-things.el"
individually for whatever we think is too annoying to deal with when
testing with -Q.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #49 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se, eliz <at> gnu.org,
 schwab <at> linux-m68k.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:38:32 +0300

On 2019-09-29 12:05 +02, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> wrote:
> Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org> writes:
>> How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?
> That's possible, but I was also wondering whether there should be an
> "emacs -Q-but-not-so-much" (or whatever) switch to Emacs, or a standard
> common-maintainer-things.el file one could load.
>
> But that's probably an endless rabbit hole to go down into, so I think
> we should just settle on saying "-l my-maintainer-things.el"
> individually for whatever we think is too annoying to deal with when
> testing with -Q.

Or, a flag like --maintainer-mode that enables all commands _and_
implies -Q and "-l $EMACS_MAINTAINER_RC" if found?

Frankly, I see no reason this issue is controversial: the command has
caused data loss for multiple people; accidental data loss and data
corruption is the worst thing that can happen to you in personal
computing, and accidentally hitting M-~ causes accidental data
loss/corruption in a very confusing way. "(emacs) Disabling" states:

> The purpose of disabling a command is to prevent users from executing
> it by accident; we do this for commands that might be confusing to the
> uninitiated.

In this light, it’s rather obvious what to do: protect users by
disabling this command.  The sole argument for keeping it enabled is
essentially the convenience of a single person.

Also, something like this

      emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"

works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
or ‘emacs-Q’.

-- 
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp	<https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
			 024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
			 40EB 465C D949 B101 2427

Message #52 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
Cc: 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se, larsi <at> gnus.org,
 schwab <at> linux-m68k.org
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 22:40:13 +0300

> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>
> Cc: schwab <at> linux-m68k.org, eliz <at> gnu.org,  stefan <at> marxist.se,
>   29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:38:32 +0300
> 
> Also, something like this
> 
>       emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"
> 
> works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
> or ‘emacs-Q’.

It's too late for me to re-train my muscle memory.

Message #55 received at 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self <at> gkayaalp.com>, 29550 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 schwab <at> linux-m68k.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2020 16:02:46 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Also, something like this
>> 
>>       emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"
>> 
>> works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
>> or ‘emacs-Q’.
>
> It's too late for me to re-train my muscle memory.

It seems that we're not going to convince Eli of the real dangers of the
`M-~' command for Emacs users, so I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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