GNU bug report logs - #30513
Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 15:58:59 +0100

The Unicode character 𝜆 has its name misspelled, it should be

  MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMBDA

instead of 

  MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA

(notice a B is missing in the second variant).


When using C-u C-x = on that character, this information is displayed:

             position: 6184 of 10702 (58%), column: 11
            character: 𝜆 (displayed as 𝜆) (codepoint 120582, #o353406, #x1d706)
    preferred charset: unicode (Unicode (ISO10646))
code point in charset: 0x1D706
               script: mathematical
               syntax: w 	which means: word
             category: .:Base, L:Left-to-right (strong)
             to input: type "C-x 8 RET 1d706" or "C-x 8 RET MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA"
          buffer code: #xF0 #x9D #x9C #x86
            file code: #xF0 #x9D #x9C #x86 (encoded by coding system utf-8-unix)
              display: by this font (glyph code)
    mac-ct:-*-STIXGeneral-normal-normal-normal-*-16-*-*-*-p-0-iso10646-1 (#xBEF)

Character code properties: customize what to show
  name: MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA
  general-category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase)
  decomposition: (font 955) (font 'λ')

There are text properties here:
  fontified            t

[back]


In GNU Emacs 25.3.1 (x86_64-apple-darwin17.2.0, NS appkit-1561.10 Version 10.13.1 (Build 17B48))
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Saving file /Users/michael/AbleBaker/waermondt/src/bgm.lisp...
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Char: 𝜏 (120591, #o353417, #x1d70f, file ...) point=5964 of 10701 (56%) column=11
Type C-x 1 to delete the help window.
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Message #8 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:04:24 -0500

Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com> writes:

> The Unicode character 𝜆 has its name misspelled, it should be
>
>   MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMBDA
>
> instead of 
>
>   MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA
>
> (notice a B is missing in the second variant).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda says:

    Unicode uses the spelling "lamda" in character names, instead of
    "lambda", due to "preferences expressed by the Greek National Body"[14]

[14]: http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2010-m06/0063.html

Message #11 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:23:03 +0100

> On 18. Feb 2018, at 16:04, Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> The Unicode character 𝜆 has its name misspelled, it should be
>> 
>>  MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMBDA
>> 
>> instead of 
>> 
>>  MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA
>> 
>> (notice a B is missing in the second variant).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda says:
> 
>    Unicode uses the spelling "lamda" in character names, instead of
>    "lambda", due to "preferences expressed by the Greek National Body"[14]
> 
> [14]: http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2010-m06/0063.html

I see, thank you for the very quick reply!


I sometimes use C-x 8 RET to enter characters using their Unicode names.  Since
these names are usually very long I rely heavily on auto-completion to reduce typing.
So if I need to enter a

  MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL TAU

I start with just the word TAU and hit TAB to display possible alternatives and
quickly reach the desired name.

What would be the preferred way to enter math symbols without fumbling over such small
oddities? Is there any possibility of adjusting the auto-completion method so that it
is not so picky about the difference between LAMDA and LAMBDA?  Are there other better
approaches?

(I think I am well aware of the LAMBDA vs. LAMDA detail now but what about the huge crowd
of Emacs users entering MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL letters using C-x 8 RET? ;) )

I would like to avoid using the TeX input method, because it does not interact so
nicely with programming (because of the special meaning quotes and the underscore become).

Best,
Michael

Message #14 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:54:21 -0500

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

tags 30513 + patch
quit

Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com> writes:

> What would be the preferred way to enter math symbols without fumbling over such small
> oddities? Is there any possibility of adjusting the auto-completion method so that it
> is not so picky about the difference between LAMDA and LAMBDA?  Are there other better
> approaches?
>
> (I think I am well aware of the LAMBDA vs. LAMDA detail now but what about the huge crowd
> of Emacs users entering MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL letters using C-x 8 RET? ;) )

Yeah, this is fresh in my memory since I was recently playing with ucs-insert
and was a bit surprised to discover "LAMBDA" under the *old* name:

  name: GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA
  old-name: GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMBDA

Anyway, I think the following patch should smooth things over:

[v1-0001-Allow-lambda-spelling-for-ucs-insert-Bug-30513.patch (text/x-diff, inline)]

From a7b40afd7fad41d55e7a43168c7febc9722ee3ac Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:43:42 -0500
Subject: [PATCH v1] Allow "lambda" spelling for ucs-insert (Bug#30513)

* lisp/international/mule-cmds.el (ucs-names): Add a "LAMBDA"
completion variant for every "LAMDA" name.
---
 lisp/international/mule-cmds.el | 8 ++++++++
 1 file changed, 8 insertions(+)

diff --git a/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el b/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el
index 3468166263..2a995121dd 100644
--- a/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el
+++ b/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el
@@ -2949,6 +2949,14 @@ ucs-names
 	        ;; higher code, so it gets pushed later!
 	        (if new-name (puthash new-name c names))
 	        (if old-name (puthash old-name c names))
+                ;; Unicode uses the spelling "lamda" in character
+                ;; names, instead of "lambda", due to "preferences
+                ;; expressed by the Greek National Body" (Bug#30513).
+                ;; Some characters have an old-name with the "lambda"
+                ;; spelling, but others don't.  Add the traditional
+                ;; spelling for more convenient completion.
+                (if (and (not old-name) new-name (string-match "LAMDA" new-name))
+                    (puthash (replace-match "LAMBDA" t t new-name) c names))
 	        (setq c (1+ c))))))
         ;; Special case for "BELL" which is apparently the only char which
         ;; doesn't have a new name and whose old-name is shadowed by a newer
-- 
2.11.0

Message #19 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: michipili <at> gmail.com, 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:31:00 +0200

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:04:24 -0500
> Cc: 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > The Unicode character 𝜆 has its name misspelled, it should be
> >
> >   MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMBDA
> >
> > instead of 
> >
> >   MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA
> >
> > (notice a B is missing in the second variant).
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda says:
> 
>     Unicode uses the spelling "lamda" in character names, instead of
>     "lambda", due to "preferences expressed by the Greek National Body"[14]
> 
> [14]: http://www.unicode.org/mail-arch/unicode-ml/y2010-m06/0063.html

Indeed.  And Emacs takes the names from the Unicode character database
anyway, so we cannot misspell the names.

Note that some LAMDA letters have the "old name" property that uses
LAMBDA, but this specific character doesn't (probably because it was
added after the above-mentioned preference was adopted by the Unicode
consortium).

Message #22 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com>
Cc: npostavs <at> gmail.com, 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 18:31:40 +0200

> From: Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 16:23:03 +0100
> Cc: 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> (I think I am well aware of the LAMBDA vs. LAMDA detail now but what about the huge crowd
> of Emacs users entering MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL letters using C-x 8 RET? ;) )

Patches to support such lose matching are welcome, I think.

Message #25 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: michipili <at> gmail.com, 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 19:16:51 +0200

> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 10:54:21 -0500
> Cc: 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> +                (if (and (not old-name) new-name (string-match "LAMDA" new-name))
> +                    (puthash (replace-match "LAMBDA" t t new-name) c names))

Won't this make ucs-names even larger and more redundant?

Message #28 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: michipili <at> gmail.com, 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 13:29:28 -0500

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> +                (if (and (not old-name) new-name (string-match "LAMDA" new-name))
>> +                    (puthash (replace-match "LAMBDA" t t new-name) c names))
>
> Won't this make ucs-names even larger and more redundant?

It will make ucs-names slightly larger and more redundant.  I think the
trade-off is worth it.  To give precise numbers, it adds 12 entries for
a total of 42857, which is 0.029%.

    (length
     ;; Entries satisfying (and (not old-name) new-name (string-match "LAMDA" new-name))
     '("MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC SMALL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD SMALL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL SANS-SERIF BOLD CAPITAL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC SMALL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL ITALIC CAPITAL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL BOLD SMALL LAMDA"
       "MATHEMATICAL BOLD CAPITAL LAMDA"
       "UGARITIC LETTER LAMDA"
       "GREEK LETTER SMALL CAPITAL LAMDA")) ;=> 12

    (hash-table-count ucs-names) ;=> 42857

Message #31 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: michipili <at> gmail.com, 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2018 11:49:02 -0800 (PST)

> >> +                (if (and (not old-name) new-name (string-match
> "LAMDA" new-name))
> >> +                    (puthash (replace-match "LAMBDA" t t new-name) c
> names))
> >
> > Won't this make ucs-names even larger and more redundant?
> 
> It will make ucs-names slightly larger and more redundant.  I think the
> trade-off is worth it.  To give precise numbers, it adds 12 entries for
> a total of 42857, which is 0.029%.

I would not make the point that this adds too many chars
for `ucs-names' or for `C-x 8 RET'.

I would make the point that we should not be inventing
character names and then associating such inventions with
what has heretofore been a pretty faithful reflection of
the Unicode standard.

There are many different possible uses of `ucs-names'.
It should not be assumed that the only use is to complete
`C-x 8 RET' or that every use of that command or
`ucs-names' will be improved by "loose" matching that
allows names that are not defined by Unicode.

If someone wants a command (or a hash table or other
mapping similar to `ucs-names') that provides and uses
handy non-Unicode names, s?he can easily define it.

And if Emacs itself wants to provide such a command or
such a map-producing function it can do it.  But please
do not do this to `ucs-names' or the default behavior
for character insertion (i.e., `C-x 8 RET').  Every such
possible "improvement" of character names for one person
is sure to be a detriment to someone else and other use
cases.

Unicode itself does not define additional LAMDA versions
of character names.  `ucs-names' and `C-x 8 RET' should
respect that and faithfully reflect the Unicode standard.

Message #34 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork <at> mbork.pl>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: michipili <at> gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>, 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 20:50:20 +0100

On 2018-02-18, at 20:49, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> wrote:

>> >> +                (if (and (not old-name) new-name (string-match
>> "LAMDA" new-name))
>> >> +                    (puthash (replace-match "LAMBDA" t t new-name) c
>> names))
>> >
>> > Won't this make ucs-names even larger and more redundant?
>>
>> It will make ucs-names slightly larger and more redundant.  I think the
>> trade-off is worth it.  To give precise numbers, it adds 12 entries for
>> a total of 42857, which is 0.029%.
>
> I would not make the point that this adds too many chars
> for `ucs-names' or for `C-x 8 RET'.
>
> I would make the point that we should not be inventing
> character names and then associating such inventions with
> what has heretofore been a pretty faithful reflection of
> the Unicode standard.

How about this one?

︘
PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET
                                                         ^^

And what about this one?  Press C-x 8 RET MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL TAB
and try to answer the puzzle: where has the "MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL H"
gone?

(The answer, rot'd-13 so that I don't spoil it for Unicode wannabe
detectives;-): CYNAPX PBAFGNAG, U+210E.)

IOW, I would argue that _some_ kind of system to help the user overcome
the inherent Unicode problems might be a good idea.

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski

Message #37 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Marcin Borkowski <mbork <at> mbork.pl>
Cc: michipili <at> gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>, 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2018 12:15:28 -0800 (PST)

> > I would not make the point that this adds too many chars
> > for `ucs-names' or for `C-x 8 RET'.
> >
> > I would make the point that we should not be inventing
> > character names and then associating such inventions with
> > what has heretofore been a pretty faithful reflection of
> > the Unicode standard.
> 
> How about this one?
> 
> ︘
> PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET
>                                                          ^^
> And what about this one?  Press C-x 8 RET MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL TAB
> and try to answer the puzzle: where has the "MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL H"
> gone?
> 
> (The answer, rot'd-13 so that I don't spoil it for Unicode wannabe
> detectives;-): CYNAPX PBAFGNAG, U+210E.)
> 
> IOW, I would argue that _some_ kind of system to help the user
> overcome the inherent Unicode problems might be a good idea.

Agreed: some help would help. ;-)  But not at the cost of
changing `ucs-names'.

You snipped most of my post, including the part that said
that although we should leave the set of Unicode names as
Unicode defines them, so that `ucs-names' remains faithful
to the standard, we can certainly add Emacs constructs (e.g.
commands, completion functions, whatever), to help users
use alternate names of our own invention, including spelling
corrections.

The fault is not with `ucs-names'.  The fault, if there
be any, is with the ways we currently _make use of it_
for users.

We could offer additional or alternative ways for users to
make use of it.  We could, for example, change `insert-char'
to respect a user option that expresses just how much such
help to provide, e.g., the degree of spelling help,
correction, abbreviation, or whatever.

If we do that then we should at least allow one of the
option values to mean that no such help is to be offered,
in which case `insert-char' would offer only the official
names.

There are other uses of `ucs-names', beyond `insert-char',
at least in 3rd-party libraries.  We should definitely not
assume that all uses of `ucs-names' should benefit or be
troubled by any Emacs-specific "improvements" we might
want to offer for the available char names.

Message #40 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Marcin Borkowski <mbork <at> mbork.pl>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: michipili <at> gmail.com, Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>,
 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2018 21:41:31 +0100

On 2018-02-23, at 21:15, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> wrote:

>> > I would not make the point that this adds too many chars
>> > for `ucs-names' or for `C-x 8 RET'.
>> >
>> > I would make the point that we should not be inventing
>> > character names and then associating such inventions with
>> > what has heretofore been a pretty faithful reflection of
>> > the Unicode standard.
>> 
>> How about this one?
>> 
>> ︘
>> PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET
>>                                                          ^^
>> And what about this one?  Press C-x 8 RET MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL TAB
>> and try to answer the puzzle: where has the "MATHEMATICAL ITALIC SMALL H"
>> gone?
>> 
>> (The answer, rot'd-13 so that I don't spoil it for Unicode wannabe
>> detectives;-): CYNAPX PBAFGNAG, U+210E.)
>> 
>> IOW, I would argue that _some_ kind of system to help the user
>> overcome the inherent Unicode problems might be a good idea.
>
> Agreed: some help would help. ;-)  But not at the cost of
> changing `ucs-names'.
>
> You snipped most of my post, including the part that said
> that although we should leave the set of Unicode names as
> Unicode defines them, so that `ucs-names' remains faithful
> to the standard, we can certainly add Emacs constructs (e.g.
> commands, completion functions, whatever), to help users
> use alternate names of our own invention, including spelling
> corrections.
>
> The fault is not with `ucs-names'.  The fault, if there
> be any, is with the ways we currently _make use of it_
> for users.

I agree.

> We could offer additional or alternative ways for users to
> make use of it.  We could, for example, change `insert-char'
> to respect a user option that expresses just how much such
> help to provide, e.g., the degree of spelling help,
> correction, abbreviation, or whatever.
>
> If we do that then we should at least allow one of the
> option values to mean that no such help is to be offered,
> in which case `insert-char' would offer only the official
> names.
>
> There are other uses of `ucs-names', beyond `insert-char',
> at least in 3rd-party libraries.  We should definitely not
> assume that all uses of `ucs-names' should benefit or be
> troubled by any Emacs-specific "improvements" we might
> want to offer for the available char names.

+1.  For one interesting use of ucs-names, see my blog post here:
http://mbork.pl/2017-10-02_Converting_TeX_sequences_to_Unicode_characters

Best,

--
Marcin Borkowski

Message #45 received at 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Grünewald <michipili <at> gmail.com>,
 30513 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#30513: Unicode Character Name is misspelled (MATHEMATICAL
 ITALIC SMALL LAMDA)
Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 06:45:46 +0200

Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Yeah, this is fresh in my memory since I was recently playing with ucs-insert
> and was a bit surprised to discover "LAMBDA" under the *old* name:
>
>   name: GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMDA
>   old-name: GREEK SMALL LETTER LAMBDA
>
> Anyway, I think the following patch should smooth things over:

The discussion then turned to whether this would add a lot of redundant
entries, but it's just 12, so I think that's fine.  It was also
suggested that there should be a more general mechanism to provide
alternative/fixed spellings for any kind of oddly-spelled Unicode
character, and that's true.

But in isolation, and because Emacs is a Lisp system, I think Noam's
patch makes sense, and I've applied it (with some cosmetic changes) to
Emacs 28.

If anybody disagrees, feel free to revert.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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