GNU bug report logs - #3179
Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007

Previous Next

To add a comment to this bug, you must first unarchive it, by sending
a message to control AT debbugs.gnu.org, with unarchive 3179 in the body.
You can then email your comments to 3179 AT debbugs.gnu.org in the normal way.

Toggle the display of automated, internal messages from the tracker.

Message #5 received at submit <at> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com (full text, mbox):

From: jidanni <at> jidanni.org
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Sat, 02 May 2009 02:10:46 +0800

With locale zh_TW.UTF-8 and toggle-input-method, we can type
Possible completion and corresponding characters are:
 ling2:(1/6) 1.零 2.玲 3.靈 4.鈴 5.齡 6.陵 7.凌 8.菱 9.聆 0.羚...
       (6/6) 1.駖 2.蕶 3.爧 4.堎 5.○

Useful when one wants to type the year 2003:
公文都有「二○○三年」，非「二零零三年」。

But in http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=427519
MH> You probably want "〇" (U+3007) instead of "○" (U+25CB)
So maybe add that in addition (not instead).

(And ０, 0...? nah.)

Message #12 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 20:41:17 +0200

jidanni <at> jidanni.org writes:

> With locale zh_TW.UTF-8 and toggle-input-method, we can type
> Possible completion and corresponding characters are:
>  ling2:(1/6) 1.零 2.玲 3.靈 4.鈴 5.齡 6.陵 7.凌 8.菱 9.聆 0.羚...
>        (6/6) 1.駖 2.蕶 3.爧 4.堎 5.○
>
> Useful when one wants to type the year 2003:
> 公文都有「二○○三年」，非「二零零三年」。
>
> But in http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=427519
> MH> You probably want "〇" (U+3007) instead of "○" (U+25CB)
> So maybe add that in addition (not instead).
>
> (And ０, 0...? nah.)

I know nothing about this, but the suggestion is to use

  name: IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER ZERO

instead of 

  name: WHITE CIRCLE

I have no idea what that means.  But there's:

(eval-after-load "quail/PY-b5"
  '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?○ nil t))

which has apparently been in Emacs ever since leim-ext.el was added.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #15 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 18:55:07 +0200

On Sun, 13 Oct 2019 20:41:17 +0200
Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> jidanni <at> jidanni.org writes:
>
>> With locale zh_TW.UTF-8 and toggle-input-method, we can type
>> Possible completion and corresponding characters are:
>>  ling2:(1/6) 1.零 2.玲 3.靈 4.鈴 5.齡 6.陵 7.凌 8.菱 9.聆 0.羚...
>>        (6/6) 1.駖 2.蕶 3.爧 4.堎 5.○
>>
>> Useful when one wants to type the year 2003:
>> 公文都有「二○○三年」，非「二零零三年」。
>>
>> But in http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=427519
>> MH> You probably want "〇" (U+3007) instead of "○" (U+25CB)
>> So maybe add that in addition (not instead).
>>
>> (And ０, 0...? nah.)
>
> I know nothing about this, but the suggestion is to use
>
>   name: IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER ZERO
>
> instead of 
>
>   name: WHITE CIRCLE
>
> I have no idea what that means.  But there's:
>
> (eval-after-load "quail/PY-b5"
>   '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?○ nil t))
>
> which has apparently been in Emacs ever since leim-ext.el was added.

Checking the commit history, the file was originally encoded in iso-2022
and I have no idea what "0!r" in that encoding amounts to, but in any
case, U+3007 is the standard way to write ideographic zero. Various
other similar-looking glyphs (in various encodings) can be found in its
place occasionally[1], but in this day and age I see no reason to
encourage that practice (so I suggest "instead", not "in addition" is
the way to go above).

[1] Cf. e.g. here (in Japanese):
https://hp.vector.co.jp/authors/VA000964/html/zero.htm

-- 
Štěpán (reading, writing and speaking Chinese (also as professional
translator and interpreter) and Japanese)

Message #18 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 21:49:03 +0200

Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com> writes:

>> I have no idea what that means.  But there's:
>>
>> (eval-after-load "quail/PY-b5"
>>   '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?○ nil t))
>>
>> which has apparently been in Emacs ever since leim-ext.el was added.
>
> Checking the commit history, the file was originally encoded in iso-2022
> and I have no idea what "0!r" in that encoding amounts to, but in any
> case, U+3007 is the standard way to write ideographic zero. Various
> other similar-looking glyphs (in various encodings) can be found in its
> place occasionally[1], but in this day and age I see no reason to
> encourage that practice (so I suggest "instead", not "in addition" is
> the way to go above).

OK; if you think that's the right thing to do, could you fix up the
quail rules here?  I know nothing about LEIM/Quail/etc, so I don't dare
touch those bits.  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #21 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 22:44:56 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

> OK; if you think that's the right thing to do, could you fix up the
> quail rules here?  I know nothing about LEIM/Quail/etc, so I don't dare
> touch those bits.  :-)

The minimal fix is attached, thanks.

[0001-quail-py-b5-Use-U-3007-for-ideographic-zero-bug-3179.patch (text/x-patch, inline)]

From cf4afa3c8b0780789cd8a0e4e81574dec47fffb5 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: =?UTF-8?q?=C5=A0t=C4=9Bp=C3=A1n=20N=C4=9Bmec?= <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 22:29:09 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] quail/py-b5: Use U+3007 for ideographic zero (bug#3179)

* leim/leim-ext.el ("quail/PY-b5"): Use U+3007 instead of U+25CB for
ideographic zero.  U+25CB (used previously) is only one of the several
lookalikes. (bug#3179)
---
 leim/leim-ext.el | 2 +-
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)

diff --git a/leim/leim-ext.el b/leim/leim-ext.el
index de30a70f2a..8ad7e85caf 100644
--- a/leim/leim-ext.el
+++ b/leim/leim-ext.el
@@ -29,7 +29,7 @@
 ;;; Code:
 
 (eval-after-load "quail/PY-b5"
-  '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?○ nil t))
+  '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?〇 nil t))
 
 ;; Enable inputting full-width space (U+3000).
 (eval-after-load "quail/Punct"
-- 
2.23.0

Message #24 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 22:56:43 +0200

Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com> writes:

> The minimal fix is attached, thanks.

Well, that was easy enough.  :-)

But there's also

(eval-after-load "quail/PY-b5"
  '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?○ nil t))

in leim-list.el...  And why are these things added anyway?  The other
ling2 things (whatever they are) don't have these entries?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #27 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:09:11 +0200

On Mon, 14 Oct 2019 22:56:43 +0200
Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:

> But there's also
>
> (eval-after-load "quail/PY-b5"
>   '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?○ nil t))
>
> in leim-list.el...

That's auto-added from leim-ext by 'make'.

> And why are these things added anyway? The other ling2 things
> (whatever they are) don't have these entries?

I don't know why this particular addition is done this way, instead of
adding it to the py-b5 definition directly. Maybe it was supposed to be
more modular in case same thing would go in multiple similar input
methods? Only Handa-san knows I guess... That's not the only strange
thing about leim/quail in general and leim-ext in particular, but I
didn't want to go there. (I just checked for other occurences of WHITE
CIRCLE vs IDEOGRAPHIC ZERO, and tested my change.)

-- 
Štěpán

Message #30 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:13:57 +0200

Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com> writes:

>> But there's also
>>
>> (eval-after-load "quail/PY-b5"
>>   '(quail-defrule "ling2" ?○ nil t))
>>
>> in leim-list.el...
>
> That's auto-added from leim-ext by 'make'.
>
>> And why are these things added anyway? The other ling2 things
>> (whatever they are) don't have these entries?
>
> I don't know why this particular addition is done this way, instead of
> adding it to the py-b5 definition directly. Maybe it was supposed to be
> more modular in case same thing would go in multiple similar input
> methods?

Yeah, the PY-b5 file starts with

;; Quail package `chinese-py-b5
;;   Generated by the command ‘titdic-convert’
;;	Original TIT dictionary file: PY-b5.tit

so I guess we want to keep that auto-generated, and then tweak the data
afterwards.

> Only Handa-san knows I guess... That's not the only strange
> thing about leim/quail in general and leim-ext in particular, but I
> didn't want to go there. (I just checked for other occurences of WHITE
> CIRCLE vs IDEOGRAPHIC ZERO, and tested my change.)

Thanks; I've now applied the patch, and I'm now closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #35 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 11:15:47 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Mon, 14 Oct 2019 23:13:57 +0200
> Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> 
> > Only Handa-san knows I guess... That's not the only strange
> > thing about leim/quail in general and leim-ext in particular, but I
> > didn't want to go there. (I just checked for other occurences of WHITE
> > CIRCLE vs IDEOGRAPHIC ZERO, and tested my change.)
> 
> Thanks; I've now applied the patch, and I'm now closing this bug report.

I don't understand this decision.  None of us knows enough about these
particular characters to tell U+25CB was a mistake (it was there since
day one of leim-ext.el), and the OP asked for _addition_ of U+3007.
So why did we replace instead of adding?

Message #38 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:26:56 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> I don't understand this decision.  None of us knows enough about these
> particular characters to tell U+25CB was a mistake (it was there since
> day one of leim-ext.el), and the OP asked for _addition_ of U+3007.
> So why did we replace instead of adding?

We had the opinions of two people (Ming Hua <minghua <at> rice.edu> over at
the Debian debbugs and Štěpán here) that IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER ZERO made
sense while WHITE CIRCLE didn't, so it didn't seem controversial.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #41 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:51:35 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Cc: stepnem <at> gmail.com,  3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,  jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 10:26:56 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > I don't understand this decision.  None of us knows enough about these
> > particular characters to tell U+25CB was a mistake (it was there since
> > day one of leim-ext.el), and the OP asked for _addition_ of U+3007.
> > So why did we replace instead of adding?
> 
> We had the opinions of two people (Ming Hua <minghua <at> rice.edu> over at
> the Debian debbugs and Štěpán here) that IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER ZERO made
> sense while WHITE CIRCLE didn't, so it didn't seem controversial.

Ming Hua gave no reasoning, and Štěpán said U+3007 is the standard way
to write ideographic zero.  But why should we assume the intent here
was to use the ideographic zero?  (And the original file had U+25CB
there, in ISO-2022 encoding, that's definitely correct.)

Message #44 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:00:35 +0200

On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:51:35 +0300
Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Ming Hua gave no reasoning, and Štěpán said U+3007 is the standard way
> to write ideographic zero.  But why should we assume the intent here
> was to use the ideographic zero?

The intent (to write ideographic zero, not white circle) is quite clear,
because that's what the key "ling2" means in Mandarin. As is usually the
case in Chinese, ling2 can also mean a lot of other things, but white
circle is not one of them.

You can check with any Chinese or Japanese input method what suggestion
you get for that key (in Japanese that'd be れい/rei). I, for example,
use fcitx with mozc for Japanese and sunpinyin for Chinese, both of
which do the right thing. (I don't normally use Emacs input methods for
CJK languages, I find quail too limited for those and I suspect the same
will be the case for other serious users, which might also be the reason
for the lack of previous feedback.)

That said, by all means, do check with Handa-san, I'm kind of curious
myself.

-- 
Štěpán

Message #47 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>, Kenichi Handa
 <handa <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:00:19 +0300

> From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:00:35 +0200
> 
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:51:35 +0300
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> > Ming Hua gave no reasoning, and Štěpán said U+3007 is the standard way
> > to write ideographic zero.  But why should we assume the intent here
> > was to use the ideographic zero?
> 
> The intent (to write ideographic zero, not white circle) is quite clear,
> because that's what the key "ling2" means in Mandarin. As is usually the
> case in Chinese, ling2 can also mean a lot of other things, but white
> circle is not one of them.
> 
> You can check with any Chinese or Japanese input method what suggestion
> you get for that key (in Japanese that'd be れい/rei). I, for example,
> use fcitx with mozc for Japanese and sunpinyin for Chinese, both of
> which do the right thing. (I don't normally use Emacs input methods for
> CJK languages, I find quail too limited for those and I suspect the same
> will be the case for other serious users, which might also be the reason
> for the lack of previous feedback.)
> 
> That said, by all means, do check with Handa-san, I'm kind of curious
> myself.

Thanks, I've CC'ed him.

Message #50 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Kenichi Handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 13:12:56 +0300

Ping!

Kenichi, could you please respond to this issue?  TIA.

> Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:00:19 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> 
> > From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
> > Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:00:35 +0200
> > 
> > On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:51:35 +0300
> > Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > 
> > > Ming Hua gave no reasoning, and Štěpán said U+3007 is the standard way
> > > to write ideographic zero.  But why should we assume the intent here
> > > was to use the ideographic zero?
> > 
> > The intent (to write ideographic zero, not white circle) is quite clear,
> > because that's what the key "ling2" means in Mandarin. As is usually the
> > case in Chinese, ling2 can also mean a lot of other things, but white
> > circle is not one of them.
> > 
> > You can check with any Chinese or Japanese input method what suggestion
> > you get for that key (in Japanese that'd be れい/rei). I, for example,
> > use fcitx with mozc for Japanese and sunpinyin for Chinese, both of
> > which do the right thing. (I don't normally use Emacs input methods for
> > CJK languages, I find quail too limited for those and I suspect the same
> > will be the case for other serious users, which might also be the reason
> > for the lack of previous feedback.)
> > 
> > That said, by all means, do check with Handa-san, I'm kind of curious
> > myself.
> 
> Thanks, I've CC'ed him.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Message #53 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: handa <at> gnu.org
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2019 14:45:33 +0200

Ping! Ping!

Kenichi, could you please respond?  TIA.

> Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2019 13:12:56 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>  jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> 
> Ping!
> 
> Kenichi, could you please respond to this issue?  TIA.
> 
> > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:00:19 +0300
> > From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> > Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> > 
> > > From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
> > > Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> > > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:00:35 +0200
> > > 
> > > On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:51:35 +0300
> > > Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > 
> > > > Ming Hua gave no reasoning, and Štěpán said U+3007 is the standard way
> > > > to write ideographic zero.  But why should we assume the intent here
> > > > was to use the ideographic zero?
> > > 
> > > The intent (to write ideographic zero, not white circle) is quite clear,
> > > because that's what the key "ling2" means in Mandarin. As is usually the
> > > case in Chinese, ling2 can also mean a lot of other things, but white
> > > circle is not one of them.
> > > 
> > > You can check with any Chinese or Japanese input method what suggestion
> > > you get for that key (in Japanese that'd be れい/rei). I, for example,
> > > use fcitx with mozc for Japanese and sunpinyin for Chinese, both of
> > > which do the right thing. (I don't normally use Emacs input methods for
> > > CJK languages, I find quail too limited for those and I suspect the same
> > > will be the case for other serious users, which might also be the reason
> > > for the lack of previous feedback.)
> > > 
> > > That said, by all means, do check with Handa-san, I'm kind of curious
> > > myself.
> > 
> > Thanks, I've CC'ed him.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Message #56 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 22:18:25 +0900

Sorry for the very very late response.

In article <83bltc6lci.fsf <at> gnu.org>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> > Kenichi, could you please respond to this issue?  TIA.

I agree that "ling2" sould correspond to U+3007 rather than to the
current U+25CB (WHITE CIRCLE).  For the latter, if we dare to assign
some key sequence, it should be "wan2" (the key sequence for "丸" (the
meaning is circle)).

I don't remember why quail-ext.el has such a code.  As it is in
quail-ext.el, perhaps it was a request from some Chinese user.

---
K. Handa
handa <at> gnu.org


> > > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 16:00:19 +0300
> > > From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
> > > Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> > > 
> > > > From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
> > > > Cc: 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> > > > Date: Tue, 15 Oct 2019 14:00:35 +0200
> > > > 
> > > > On Tue, 15 Oct 2019 12:51:35 +0300
> > > > Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Ming Hua gave no reasoning, and Štěpán said U+3007 is the standard way
> > > > > to write ideographic zero.  But why should we assume the intent here
> > > > > was to use the ideographic zero?
> > > > 
> > > > The intent (to write ideographic zero, not white circle) is quite clear,
> > > > because that's what the key "ling2" means in Mandarin. As is usually the
> > > > case in Chinese, ling2 can also mean a lot of other things, but white
> > > > circle is not one of them.
> > > > 
> > > > You can check with any Chinese or Japanese input method what suggestion
> > > > you get for that key (in Japanese that'd be れい/rei). I, for example,
> > > > use fcitx with mozc for Japanese and sunpinyin for Chinese, both of
> > > > which do the right thing. (I don't normally use Emacs input methods for
> > > > CJK languages, I find quail too limited for those and I suspect the same
> > > > will be the case for other serious users, which might also be the reason
> > > > for the lack of previous feedback.)
> > > > 
> > > > That said, by all means, do check with Handa-san, I'm kind of curious
> > > > myself.
> > > 
> > > Thanks, I've CC'ed him.

Message #59 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:44:03 +0200

> From: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>  jidanni <at> jidanni.org
> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 22:18:25 +0900
> 
> I agree that "ling2" sould correspond to U+3007 rather than to the
> current U+25CB (WHITE CIRCLE).  For the latter, if we dare to assign
> some key sequence, it should be "wan2" (the key sequence for "丸" (the
> meaning is circle)).
> 
> I don't remember why quail-ext.el has such a code.  As it is in
> quail-ext.el, perhaps it was a request from some Chinese user.

Thanks, I added U+25CB to "wan2".

Message #62 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:32:09 +0100

On Thu, 28 Nov 2019 17:44:03 +0200
Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
>> Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, stepnem <at> gmail.com, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
>>  jidanni <at> jidanni.org
>> Date: Thu, 28 Nov 2019 22:18:25 +0900
>> 
>> I agree that "ling2" sould correspond to U+3007 rather than to the
>> current U+25CB (WHITE CIRCLE).  For the latter, if we dare to assign
>> some key sequence, it should be "wan2" (the key sequence for "丸" (the
>> meaning is circle)).
>> 
>> I don't remember why quail-ext.el has such a code.  As it is in
>> quail-ext.el, perhaps it was a request from some Chinese user.
>
> Thanks, I added U+25CB to "wan2".

Please don't, that is a Japanism.

While one of the meanings of 丸 (when read "maru") in _Japanese_ is
"circle", the same is not true for Chinese.

-- 
Štěpán

Message #65 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
To: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 23:31:07 +0900

In article <87wobkotbq.fsf <at> gmail.com>, Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com> writes:

> > Thanks, I added U+25CB to "wan2".

> Please don't, that is a Japanism.

> While one of the meanings of 丸 (when read "maru") in _Japanese_ is
> "circle", the same is not true for Chinese.

Oops, sorry.  As some site showed me one of the Chinese translations of
丸 is ball, I thought it was ok.  I tried Google translatetion, and
CIRCLE was translated to 圈 (Quān).  So, perhaps adding to "quan1" is
correct, right?

---
K. Handa
handa <at> gnu.org

Message #68 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
To: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org, jidanni <at> jidanni.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2019 16:02:44 +0100

On Thu, 05 Dec 2019 23:31:07 +0900
handa wrote:

> In article <87wobkotbq.fsf <at> gmail.com>, Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> > Thanks, I added U+25CB to "wan2".
>
>> Please don't, that is a Japanism.
>
>> While one of the meanings of 丸 (when read "maru") in _Japanese_ is
>> "circle", the same is not true for Chinese.
>
> Oops, sorry.  As some site showed me one of the Chinese translations of
> 丸 is ball, I thought it was ok.  I tried Google translatetion, and
> CIRCLE was translated to 圈 (Quān).  So, perhaps adding to "quan1" is
> correct, right?

Adding ○ (U+25CB) to quan1 would be less surprising I suppose, but I
really don't see any reason to have it anywhere. While not having
IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER ZERO could be considered an omission or even bug, as
it is quite ubiquitous and a common way to write ling2 (in the meaning
"zero") in Chinese numerals, adding U+25CB is more similar to adding
various emoji or heart symbols to xin1 or a flower to hua1 or what have
you, i.e. definitely not necessary and AFAICT the py-b5 input method
doesn't do that for other symbols, either.

-- 
Štěpán

Message #71 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
Cc: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>, eliz <at> gnu.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 09:10:49 +0800

>>>>> "ŠN" == Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com> writes:

ŠN> really don't see any reason to have it anywhere.

Actually to be fair, e.g., 7, ７, 七 should all be available on "qi1"
too.

And ling2 should get all of 0, ０ etc. that we were talking about.

Message #74 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
To: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>
Cc: eliz <at> gnu.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org,
 Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 10:55:40 +0800

h> perhaps adding to "quan1" is correct, right?

All I know is when people type quan1 they should be able to find all
kinds of circles, including emojis.

Message #77 received at 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Štěpán Němec <stepnem <at> gmail.com>
To: 積丹尼 Dan Jacobson <jidanni <at> jidanni.org>
Cc: handa <handa <at> gnu.org>, eliz <at> gnu.org, 3179 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi <at> gnus.org
Subject: Re: bug#3179: Entering Chinese "zero": add U+3007
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2019 09:23:44 +0100

On Fri, 06 Dec 2019 10:55:40 +0800
積丹尼 Dan Jacobson wrote:

> Actually to be fair, e.g., 7, ７, 七 should all be available on "qi1"
> too.

> And ling2 should get all of 0, ０ etc. that we were talking about.

[...]

> All I know is when people type quan1 they should be able to find all
> kinds of circles, including emojis.

Not all Chinese input methods do this (in fact I can't remember last
time I saw one that did), I personally don't think the py-b5 _should_ do
this, and in any case this should IMO be a subject of separate feature
request.

To rephrase my reasoning from a previous message, 〇 (IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER
ZERO) can really be considered a Chinese character (as illustrated by
occurences such as 二〇〇一 equivalent to 二零零一 etc.), which makes it
categorically different from all the other "goodies" you're suggesting.

-- 
Štěpán

Previous Next

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.