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Subject: bug#32250: ls -explain better the different times
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From: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN>
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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:54:42 +0200
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hello,
in the documentation of ls the concept of the different times is not
explained sufficiently well (mtime, atime, ctime).
greetings,
kalle
Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.505 (Entity 5.505) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Loop: help-debbugs@HIDDEN From: help-debbugs@HIDDEN (GNU bug Tracking System) To: kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> Subject: bug#32250: Acknowledgement (ls -explain better the different times) Message-ID: <handler.32250.B.153236129928263.ack <at> debbugs.gnu.org> References: <a882cfc6-0f3a-a21a-3c93-b48d18a4ae21@HIDDEN> X-Gnu-PR-Message: ack 32250 X-Gnu-PR-Package: coreutils Reply-To: 32250 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:55:02 +0000 Thank you for filing a new bug report with debbugs.gnu.org. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): bug-coreutils@HIDDEN If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please send it to 32250 <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Please do not send mail to help-debbugs@HIDDEN unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system. --=20 32250: http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D32250 GNU Bug Tracking System Contact help-debbugs@HIDDEN with problems
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Subject: bug#32250: ls -explain better the different times
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Hello,
On 2018-07-23 9:54 a.m., kalle wrote:
> in the documentation of ls the concept of the different times is not
> explained sufficiently well (mtime, atime, ctime).
The dedicated file-timestamp section (
https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/File-timestamps.html
) is indeed perhaps a bit too dense (lots of text
with no quick examples).
Attached is an improvement suggestion, adding a summary table,
and details examples.
Comments and feedback welcomed,
- assaf
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From f5774f87df4af912fd826f3d4208c9cd766e7524 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Assaf Gordon <assafgordon@HIDDEN>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2018 20:28:28 -0700
Subject: [PATCH] doc: expand file timestamp section (atime,ctime,mtime)
Requested by kalle <kalle@HIDDEN> in
https://bugs.gnu.org/32250 .
* doc/coreutils.texi (File timestamps): Add summary table and examples.
---
doc/coreutils.texi | 279 +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 file changed, 279 insertions(+)
diff --git a/doc/coreutils.texi b/doc/coreutils.texi
index fd6d578ac..56831e46a 100644
--- a/doc/coreutils.texi
+++ b/doc/coreutils.texi
@@ -18877,6 +18877,132 @@ copy of the file, including the new permissions value. Another
operation that modifies a file's ctime without affecting the others is
renaming.
+@multitable @columnfractions .25 .25 .25 .25
+
+@headitem
+@tab Access Time
+@tab Modify Time
+@tab Change Time
+
+@item abbreviation
+@tab @code{atime}
+@tab @code{mtime}
+@tab @code{ctime}
+
+@item Updated when
+@tab content read
+@tab content modified
+@tab meta-data modified @*(e.g., permissions, owner, file name)
+
+@headitem Files @c{second line in next headitem}
+@tab Access Time
+@tab Modify Time
+@tab Change Time
+
+@headitem Affected by:
+
+@item @command{touch}
+@tab yes
+@tab yes
+@tab yes
+
+@item @command{touch -a}
+@tab yes
+@tab no
+@tab yes
+
+@item @command{touch -m}
+@tab no
+@tab yes
+@tab yes
+
+@item @command{chmod}
+@tab no
+@tab no
+@tab yes
+
+@item @command{chown}
+@tab no
+@tab no
+@tab yes
+
+@item @command{mv}
+@tab no
+@tab no
+@tab yes
+
+@headitem Directories @*Affected by:
+
+@item Listing files
+@tab yes
+@tab no
+@tab no
+
+@item Creating a new file
+@tab no
+@tab yes
+@tab yes
+
+@item Renaming a file
+@tab no
+@tab yes
+@tab yes
+
+@item meta-data changes to a file inside the directory
+@tab no
+@tab no
+@tab no
+
+
+@headitem @c{add a space for cleaner visuals }
+
+@headitem Running @command{cp SRC DST}:
+@tab Access Time
+@tab Modify Time
+@tab Change Time
+
+@item Changes to @file{SRC}
+@tab yes
+@tab no
+@tab no
+
+@item Changes to @file{DST}
+@tab yes
+@tab yes
+@tab yes
+
+@headitem Running @*@command{cp -p SRC DST}:
+@item Changes to @file{SRC}
+@tab no
+@tab no
+@tab no
+
+@item Changes to @file{DST}
+@tab (same as @file{SRC})
+@tab (same as @file{SRC})
+@tab yes @* (set to current time)
+
+@headitem Displaying timestamps
+@item Show with @command{ls} option
+@tab @option{-l -u}
+@tab @option{-l}
+@tab @option{-l -c}
+
+@item @command{stat} @option{-c} format @*(human readable)
+@tab @option{%x}
+@tab @option{%y}
+@tab @option{%z}
+
+@item @command{stat} @option{-c} format @*(seconds since epoch)
+@tab @option{%X}
+@tab @option{%Y}
+@tab @option{%Z}
+
+@end multitable
+
+@*
+@*
+
Naively, a file's atime, mtime, and ctime are set to the current time
whenever you read, write, or change the attributes of the file
respectively, and searching a directory counts as reading it. A
@@ -18920,6 +19046,159 @@ and microsecond resolution for the primitive that @command{touch} uses
to set a file's timestamp to an arbitrary value.
+@unnumberedsec Timestamp examples
+
+These two shell functions (@code{lstime} and @code{stattime}) will be
+used in the following examples to show the three timestamps (access, modify,
+change times) of a file:
+
+@example
+lstime()
+@{
+ printf "Access (read): " ; ls -log -u "$1" ;
+ printf "Modify (data): " ; ls -log "$1" ;
+ printf "Change (meta): " ; ls -log -c "$1" ;
+@}
+
+stattime()
+@{
+ stat --printf "File name: %n\n" "$1" ;
+ stat --printf " Access (read): %x\n" "$1" ;
+ stat --printf " Modify (data): %y\n" "$1" ;
+ stat --printf " Change (meta): %z\n" "$1" ;
+@}
+@end example
+
+@iftex
+@exdent
+@end iftex
+Starting with an empty directory, create a new file (@file{myfile})
+then examine its time stamps (which will be all identical):
+
+@example
+$ touch myfile
+
+$ lstime myfile
+Access (read): -rw-r--r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:01 myfile
+Modify (data): -rw-r--r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:01 myfile
+Change (meta): -rw-r--r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:01 myfile
+
+$ stattime myfile
+File name: myfile
+ Access (read): 2018-12-30 00:01:04.097305081 -0700
+ Modify (data): 2018-12-30 00:01:04.097305081 -0700
+ Change (meta): 2018-12-30 00:01:04.097305081 -0700
+@end example
+
+@iftex
+@exdent
+@end iftex
+Delay for 60 seconds, then change the file's permission mode.
+This is a meta-data change, hence @code{ctime} will be updated:
+
+@example
+$ sleep 60
+$ chmod g+w myfile
+
+$ lstime myfile
+Access (read): -rw-rw-r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:01 myfile
+Modify (data): -rw-rw-r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:01 myfile
+Change (meta): -rw-rw-r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:02 myfile
+
+$ stattime myfile
+File name: myfile
+ Access (read): 2018-12-30 00:01:04.097305081 -0700
+ Modify (data): 2018-12-30 00:01:04.097305081 -0700
+ Change (meta): 2018-12-30 00:02:09.735558316 -0700
+@end example
+
+@iftex
+@exdent
+@end iftex
+Delay for 120 seconds, then read the file. This is a content read,
+hence @code{atime} will be updated:
+
+@example
+$ sleep 120
+$ cat myfile > /dev/null
+
+$ lstime myfile
+Access (read): -rw-rw-r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:04 myfile
+Modify (data): -rw-rw-r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:01 myfile
+Change (meta): -rw-rw-r-- 1 0 Dec 30 00:02 myfile
+
+$ stattime myfile
+File name: myfile
+ Access (read): 2018-12-30 00:04:16.330307979 -0700
+ Modify (data): 2018-12-30 00:01:04.097305081 -0700
+ Change (meta): 2018-12-30 00:02:09.735558316 -0700
+@end example
+
+@iftex
+@exdent
+@end iftex
+Delay for 180 seconds, then append to the end of the file
+This is content modification, hence @code{mtime} and @code{ctime} will
+be updated (@code{stattime} omitted for brevity from now on):
+
+@example
+$ sleep 180
+$ echo a >> myfile
+
+$ lstime myfile
+Access (read): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:04 myfile
+Modify (data): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:07 myfile
+Change (meta): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:07 myfile
+@end example
+
+@iftex
+@exdent
+@end iftex
+Delay for 240 seconds, then copy @file{myfile} to a new file
+(@file{otherfile}). The source file was read and its @code{atime} was
+updated. All timestamps of the destination file are set to the current
+time:
+
+@example
+$ sleep 240
+$ cp myfile otherfile
+
+$ lstime myfile
+Access (read): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:11 myfile
+Modify (data): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:07 myfile
+Change (meta): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:07 myfile
+
+$ lstime otherfile
+Access (read): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:11 myfile
+Modify (data): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:11 myfile
+Change (meta): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:11 myfile
+@end example
+
+@iftex
+@exdent
+@end iftex
+To copy the access time and modification time of the source file to
+the destination file, and prevent updating the access time of the
+source file, use @command{cp -p}. The destination file's @code{ctime}
+will always be updated:
+
+@example
+$ sleep 60
+$ cp -p myfile thirdfile
+
+$ lstime myfile
+Access (read): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:11 myfile
+Modify (data): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:07 myfile
+Change (meta): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:07 myfile
+
+$ lstime thirdfile
+Access (read): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:11 thirdfile
+Modify (data): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:07 thirdfile
+Change (meta): -rw-rw-r-- 1 2 Dec 30 00:12 thirdfile
+@end example
+
+
+
@include parse-datetime.texi
--
2.11.0
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Subject: bug#32250: ls -explain better the different times
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Assaf Gordon wrote:
> Attached is an improvement suggestion, adding a summary table,
> and details examples.
>
> Comments and feedback welcomed,
I'm afraid that table goes into so much detail that it will overwhelm the user.
Why, for example, have separate lines for chmod and chown?
Also, some of the entries look too system-specific. For example, POSIX doesn't
require that 'ls DIR' must update the access time of DIR, many systems don't
update access times even when POSIX says they should, and on some systems
symbolic links' timestamps are irrelevant and/or unchangeable.
Also, since when does "cp -p a b" not update a's access time? Traditional 'cp'
does update the source's access time, and POSIX seems to require that.
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Subject: bug#32250: ls -explain better the different times
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From: Assaf Gordon <assafgordon@HIDDEN>
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Hello Paul,
On 2018-12-31 1:05 a.m., Paul Eggert wrote:
> Assaf Gordon wrote:
>> Attached is an improvement suggestion, adding a summary table,
>> and details examples.
>>
>> Comments and feedback welcomed,
Thank you for reviewing and providing feedback - goes to show
that things aren't that easily clear (no from anecdotal testing
and not from reading my text).
Before I go on - do you (and others) think it's worthwhile expanding
the timestamp section? if not, I won't spend more time on it.
If yes, then:
> I'm afraid that table goes into so much detail that it will overwhelm
> the user. Why, for example, have separate lines for chmod and chown?
chown/chmod can indeed by merged, or one of them omitted.
there's a tradeoff between being detailed (helping new users to easily
find information without too much reading) and being too verbose. I'm
sure couple of further iterations will improve the text.
> Also, some of the entries look too system-specific. [...]
Very good point - that will likely stumble users as well.
We can perhaps explicitly say that some of these are system specific,
or remove the system-specific ones?
> Also, since when does "cp -p a b" not update a's access time?
> Traditional 'cp' does update the source's access time, and POSIX seems
> to require that.
Thanks for pointing this out.
I went back and double-checked: on my system (linux 4.9.65-3+deb9u1,
ext4 filesystem mounted with relatime),
the first time a file is copied with "cp -p a b", a's access time is
updated. if "a" is then copied few more times, its atime remains the
same, and the new files get its same atime (i.e., not the current time).
IIUC, this is the effect of "relatime" and the fact the "a" was not
modified between coping (However I could be wrong).
In any case, the table should be corrected, and perhaps this issue
should be clarified.
thanks again,
- assaf
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Subject: bug#32250: ls -explain better the different times
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hello,
i'm happy that so much later someone cares about my bug-report.
Am 31.12.2018 um 05:13 schrieb Assaf Gordon:
> Hello,
>
> On 2018-07-23 9:54 a.m., kalle wrote:
>> in the documentation of ls the concept of the different times is not
>> explained sufficiently well (mtime, atime, ctime).
I'm sorry to discover that when I wrote these lines, I referred to
version 8.26-3, while it was not the most actual. The section "File
timestamps" didn't exist then.
However, I still believe that the times are not described precisely
enough by the terms "write","read","change" until it is totally clear,
what is meant by these (it is not totally clear to me).
Therefore I welcome your summary table, although not being able to read
it, since it's only a patch.
>
> The dedicated file-timestamp section (
> https://www.gnu.org/software/coreutils/manual/html_node/File-timestamps.html
> ) is indeed perhaps a bit too dense (lots of text
> with no quick examples).
>
> Attached is an improvement suggestion, adding a summary table,
> and details examples.
>
> Comments and feedback welcomed,
> - assaf
>
>
greetings,
kalle
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