GNU bug report logs - #33654
27.0.50; No record of init file errors printed in *Messages*

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 27.0.50; No record of init file errors printed in *Messages*
Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 19:42:05 -0500

When there is an error in the init file, so that Emacs fails to
start normally, the user is not notified of the problem in the
*Messages* buffer.

Consequently, a user diligently checking *Messages* after Emacs
startup to ensure that there were no problems, will fail to be
informed of an init file error.

Although a warning message is printed in a window, if Desktop
restores many frames, the warning message will probably be buried
and may never be seen. [Perhaps the window with the warning message
should be displayed in the frame that has focus after Desktop
restore is finished?]


In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.30)
 of 2018-12-03 built on moondust.localdomain
Repository revision: e02d375cb6670e2306b9c67d7f6fd2dd1d1b2711
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'Fedora Project', version 11.0.11906000
System Description: Fedora 28 (Workstation Edition)

Configured using:
 'configure 'CFLAGS=-O3 -g3 -gdwarf-4''

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY
INOTIFY ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE LIBOTF XFT ZLIB
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM THREADS LCMS2 GMP

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_CA.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=none
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Text

Minor modes in effect:
  TeX-PDF-mode: t
  diff-auto-refine-mode: t
  flyspell-mode: t
  pdf-occur-global-minor-mode: t
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  recentf-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  savehist-mode: t
  save-place-mode: t
  electric-pair-mode: t
  display-time-mode: t
  display-battery-mode: t
  desktop-save-mode: t
  delete-selection-mode: t
  cua-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  temp-buffer-resize-mode: t
  size-indication-mode: t
  column-number-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  global-visual-line-mode: t
  visual-line-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t

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Message #8 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50;
 No record of init file errors printed in *Messages*
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 09:13:40 +0200

> From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 19:42:05 -0500
> 
> When there is an error in the init file, so that Emacs fails to
> start normally, the user is not notified of the problem in the
> *Messages* buffer.

Generally, that happens when we cannot safely display anything, nor
even insert text into *Messages*, if problems occur early enough into
the startup process, because the necessary infrastructure is not yet
available.  But we do try our best, see below.  So your report, which
sounds as if there's a general non-display of any error or warning
messages in this case, is inaccurate.  Please be more specific
regarding the particular problems you saw that didn't get logged.

> Consequently, a user diligently checking *Messages* after Emacs
> startup to ensure that there were no problems, will fail to be
> informed of an init file error.

Such errors are generally displayed right away, after interrupting the
initialization process.  So I wonder what specific example do you have
in mind.

> Although a warning message is printed in a window, if Desktop
> restores many frames, the warning message will probably be buried
> and may never be seen. [Perhaps the window with the warning message
> should be displayed in the frame that has focus after Desktop
> restore is finished?]

Are you talking about errors or warnings?  And did you include the
*Warnings* buffer in your review?  That's where we put delayed
warnings from the initialization process.  More generally, did you
read up on the "delayed warnings" machinery?

Message #11 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50;
 No record of init file errors printed in *Messages*
Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 12:08:33 -0500

Hello Eli,

At 09:13 +0200 on Friday 2018-12-07, Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
>> Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2018 19:42:05 -0500
>> 
>> When there is an error in the init file, so that Emacs fails to
>> start normally, the user is not notified of the problem in the
>> *Messages* buffer.
>
> Generally, that happens when we cannot safely display anything,
> nor even insert text into *Messages*, if problems occur early
> enough into the startup process, because the necessary
> infrastructure is not yet available.  But we do try our best, see
> below.  So your report, which sounds as if there's a general
> non-display of any error or warning messages in this case, is
> inaccurate.

Yes, you are quite right. Sorry for the rather sweeping statement, I
was trying to characterise the problem I saw. I've typically been
happy with the information I've had from Emacs when I've had errors
in my init files, and I think that was why I was surprised when I
was (in my opinion) inadequately informed in this case.

I though something might have changed, but perhaps the specific
circumstances were different from the errors I've had in the past.

> Please be more specific regarding the particular problems you saw
> that didn't get logged.

Please see below.

> Such errors are generally displayed right away, after interrupting
> the initialization process.  So I wonder what specific example do
> you have in mind.

Please see below.

> Are you talking about errors or warnings?  And did you include the
> *Warnings* buffer in your review?  That's where we put delayed
> warnings from the initialization process.  More generally, did you
> read up on the "delayed warnings" machinery?

No, I've not read that documentation recently -- I'll add it to my
reading list. Yes there was a *Warnings* buffer, but it was in a
window on a frame I didn't visit. I did not know that I needed to
check both *Messages* and *Warnings*.

I think, perhaps, that if something were written to *Messages* to inform
the user that there was a warning/error, and to direct them to the
*Warnings* buffer for details, it would make it less likely that the
user would miss the information altogether. Something like

  An initialization error occurred -- see *Warnings* buffer for details.

Also, the frame that was split to display the *Warnings* buffer was not
the one that had the focus when Emacs finished starting up. (Indeed, I
think it might have been on the most deeply buried frame.) There is a
very high probability I would never see a warning/error displayed so
obscurely.

It would seem that it would be better, if it were feasible, if the
*Warnings* buffer could be displayed in a window on the frame that
has the focus after Emacs finishes starting up.


DETAILS

Here is a detailed example of the problem. I think this might have
really happened to me in real life (resulting in Bug##33536 [1]).

Scenario: I have a notion that it would be a good idea to remove and
then re-install an Emacs package. I decide that to be sure that none of
it still hanging around in memory, I should exit an restart Emacs
between removing the package and reinstalling it. The package in this
case happens to be bbdb from Gnu Elpa. I have

  (bbdb-initialize 'gnus 'message)

in my init file.

When Emacs starts after bbdb has been uninstalled, the above line
results in an error. A *Warnings* buffer is displayed as follows:

  Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading `/home/nlj/.emacs':

  Symbol's function definition is void: bbdb-initialize

  To ensure normal operation, you should investigate and remove the
  cause of the error in your initialization file.  Start Emacs with
  the `--debug-init' option to view a complete error backtrace.

But I don't see this error/warning message because I don't visit the
frame on which it is displayed. After all, it's just going to be a short
Emacs session during which all I'm going to do is install bbdb.

In my *Messages* buffer is displayed:

  Loading cua-base...done
  Loading delsel...done
  Loading desktop...done
  Loading battery...done
  Loading time...done
  Loading elec-pair...done
  Loading saveplace...done
  Loading savehist...done
  Loading paren...done
  Loading /home/nlj/.recentf...done
  Cleaning up the recentf list...done (0 removed)
  Starting new Ispell process /usr/bin/aspell with default dictionary...
  Loading dired-x...done
  Setting up indent for shell type sh
  Indentation variables are now local.
  Indentation setup for shell type sh
  Ispell process killed
  Starting new Ispell process /usr/bin/aspell with default dictionary...
  Setting up indent for shell type sh
  Indentation variables are now local.
  Indentation setup for shell type sh
  Omitting...
  Omitted 384 lines.
  uncompressing de.map.gz...done
  Wrote /data/projects/vc/emacs/git/emacs/.emacs.desktop.lock
  Desktop: 7 frames, 54 buffers restored.
  For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.

This shows no indication of the initialization error.


Now it might be a user error to look for an indication of start up
problems only in *Messages*, and it might a user error to miss the
*Warnings* buffer, but I think it would improve Emacs, were it feasible,
if it helped the user to avoid these mistakes by mentioning the
error/warning in *Messages*, and by displaying the *Warnings* buffer in
a frame that isn't buried.


[1] https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=33536

Message #14 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>, martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>
Cc: 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50;
 No record of init file errors printed in *Messages*
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 12:46:21 +0200

> From: "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2018 12:08:33 -0500
> 
> I think, perhaps, that if something were written to *Messages* to inform
> the user that there was a warning/error, and to direct them to the
> *Warnings* buffer for details, it would make it less likely that the
> user would miss the information altogether. Something like
> 
>   An initialization error occurred -- see *Warnings* buffer for details.

Don't we already use the echo area to show the error itself?

> Also, the frame that was split to display the *Warnings* buffer was not
> the one that had the focus when Emacs finished starting up. (Indeed, I
> think it might have been on the most deeply buried frame.) There is a
> very high probability I would never see a warning/error displayed so
> obscurely.
> 
> It would seem that it would be better, if it were feasible, if the
> *Warnings* buffer could be displayed in a window on the frame that
> has the focus after Emacs finishes starting up.
> 
> 
> DETAILS
> 
> Here is a detailed example of the problem. I think this might have
> really happened to me in real life (resulting in Bug##33536 [1]).
> 
> Scenario: I have a notion that it would be a good idea to remove and
> then re-install an Emacs package. I decide that to be sure that none of
> it still hanging around in memory, I should exit an restart Emacs
> between removing the package and reinstalling it. The package in this
> case happens to be bbdb from Gnu Elpa. I have
> 
>   (bbdb-initialize 'gnus 'message)
> 
> in my init file.
> 
> When Emacs starts after bbdb has been uninstalled, the above line
> results in an error. A *Warnings* buffer is displayed as follows:
> 
>   Warning (initialization): An error occurred while loading `/home/nlj/.emacs':
> 
>   Symbol's function definition is void: bbdb-initialize
> 
>   To ensure normal operation, you should investigate and remove the
>   cause of the error in your initialization file.  Start Emacs with
>   the `--debug-init' option to view a complete error backtrace.
> 
> But I don't see this error/warning message because I don't visit the
> frame on which it is displayed. After all, it's just going to be a short
> Emacs session during which all I'm going to do is install bbdb.

I'm not sure we can guarantee that the frame showing *Warnings* is
always on top, since user initialization can create any number of
frames.  Maybe Martin has some tricks up his sleeves?

> In my *Messages* buffer is displayed:
> 
>   Loading cua-base...done
>   Loading delsel...done
>   Loading desktop...done
>   Loading battery...done
>   Loading time...done
>   Loading elec-pair...done
>   Loading saveplace...done
>   Loading savehist...done
>   Loading paren...done
>   Loading /home/nlj/.recentf...done
>   Cleaning up the recentf list...done (0 removed)
>   Starting new Ispell process /usr/bin/aspell with default dictionary...
>   Loading dired-x...done
>   Setting up indent for shell type sh
>   Indentation variables are now local.
>   Indentation setup for shell type sh
>   Ispell process killed
>   Starting new Ispell process /usr/bin/aspell with default dictionary...
>   Setting up indent for shell type sh
>   Indentation variables are now local.
>   Indentation setup for shell type sh
>   Omitting...
>   Omitted 384 lines.
>   uncompressing de.map.gz...done
>   Wrote /data/projects/vc/emacs/git/emacs/.emacs.desktop.lock
>   Desktop: 7 frames, 54 buffers restored.
>   For information about GNU Emacs and the GNU system, type C-h C-a.
> 
> This shows no indication of the initialization error.

Delayed warnings are not written to *Messages*, they are written to
*Warnings* instead.  This is so they don't get discarded if *Messages*
gets too long.  You just need to become accustomed to look in
*Warnings* as you are already accustomed to look in *Messages* (which
by default is not shown in any window, right?).

> Now it might be a user error to look for an indication of start up
> problems only in *Messages*, and it might a user error to miss the
> *Warnings* buffer, but I think it would improve Emacs, were it feasible,
> if it helped the user to avoid these mistakes by mentioning the
> error/warning in *Messages*, and by displaying the *Warnings* buffer in
> a frame that isn't buried.

Mentioning that in *Messages* is problematic, as it could disappear
without a trace.  I think.

Message #17 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, "N. Jackson" <nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50; No record of init file errors printed in
 *Messages*
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 19:51:47 +0100

> I'm not sure we can guarantee that the frame showing *Warnings* is
> always on top, since user initialization can create any number of
> frames.

In general we cannot guarantee that for any frame when there are
several of them.  Usually, the last frame created is the one on top.

A user could add a function to 'window-setup-hook' which looks whether
a *Warnings* buffer exists and, if it is not shown on the selected
frame, display it there and maybe delete it elsewhere.  Or, obviously,
select the frame where it is shown.  I don't know whether it's a good
idea to do that automatically.

martin

Message #20 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50; No record of init file errors printed in
 *Messages*
Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 21:24:27 +0200

> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2018 19:51:47 +0100
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>
> CC: 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  > I'm not sure we can guarantee that the frame showing *Warnings* is
>  > always on top, since user initialization can create any number of
>  > frames.
> 
> In general we cannot guarantee that for any frame when there are
> several of them.  Usually, the last frame created is the one on top.
> 
> A user could add a function to 'window-setup-hook' which looks whether
> a *Warnings* buffer exists and, if it is not shown on the selected
> frame, display it there and maybe delete it elsewhere.  Or, obviously,
> select the frame where it is shown.  I don't know whether it's a good
> idea to do that automatically.

Maybe we could add something to window-setup-hook when we have delayed
warnings to display after startup?

Message #23 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com, 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50; No record of init file errors printed in
 *Messages*
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2018 09:26:55 +0100

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

> Maybe we could add something to window-setup-hook when we have delayed
> warnings to display after startup?

I'd leave 'window-setup-hook' alone and do something similar to the
attached patch.  We could also try "(reusable-frames . visible)" there
which should put any frame already showing *Warnings* on top of the
others (at least here it does that), but not all window managers out
there might comply.

Here I neither use desktop nor multiple frames.  So please test the
patch with the originally posted desktop saved multiple frames setup.

Thanks, martin

[startup.el.diff (text/plain, attachment)]

Message #28 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com
Cc: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50; No record of init file errors printed in
 *Messages*
Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 03:54:03 +0200

martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at> writes:

> Here I neither use desktop nor multiple frames.  So please test the
> patch with the originally posted desktop saved multiple frames setup.
>

[...]

> +          ;; Display *Warnings* on selected frame if they happen to be
> +          ;; shown elsewhere.
> +          (let ((buffer (get-buffer "*Warnings*")))
> +            (when (buffer-live-p buffer)
> +              (display-buffer buffer '(nil (reusable-frames . nil)))))

Did you try this patch?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #31 received at 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: nljlistbox2 <at> gmail.com
Cc: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 33654 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#33654: 27.0.50; No record of init file errors printed in
 *Messages*
Date: Tue, 11 May 2021 15:49:16 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at> writes:
>
>> Here I neither use desktop nor multiple frames.  So please test the
>> patch with the originally posted desktop saved multiple frames setup.
>>
>
> [...]
>
>> +          ;; Display *Warnings* on selected frame if they happen to be
>> +          ;; shown elsewhere.
>> +          (let ((buffer (get-buffer "*Warnings*")))
>> +            (when (buffer-live-p buffer)
>> +              (display-buffer buffer '(nil (reusable-frames . nil)))))
>
> Did you try this patch?

More information was requested, but no response was given within a few
months, so I'm closing this bug report.  If the problem still exists,
please respond to this email and we'll reopen the bug report.

(The patch in question no longer applies cleanly, but it could be respun
easily enough.  But without a test case, it's hard to tell whether it
improves the situation or not, so it sounds unlikely that there'll be
more progress here.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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