GNU bug report logs - #34765
26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run buffer-list-update-hook

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Package: emacs; Reported by: Alexander Miller <alexanderm@HIDDEN>; dated Tue, 5 Mar 2019 22:58:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 14:26:31 +0300
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
In-reply-to: <49c11920-0909-dcc2-4a39-4cdcfaf20453@HIDDEN> (message from
 martin rudalics on Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:00:06 +0200)
Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
 buffer-list-update-hook
References: <cb005844-c8d3-593d-44fd-cd344bd23359@HIDDEN>
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> Cc: monnier@HIDDEN, 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 13:00:06 +0200
> 
> 
> I attach a preliminary patch.

Thanks.  This will need documentation changes when pushed.

> +/**
> + * run_buffer_list_update_hook:
> + *
> + * Run any functions on 'buffer-list-update-hook'.  Do not run the
> + * functions when BUFFER is a buffer and its inhibit_buffer_hooks
> + * structure element is set.  Do not run any functions either when we
> + * are not allowed to run hooks.
> + */

Can we please use our style in commentary?  We don't use bock comments
in Emacs, so I'd like not to proliferate them.

> +  if (!inhibit_buffer_hooks)
> +    /* Run buffer-list-update-hook.  */
> +    run_buffer_list_update_hook (buffer);

It is somewhat strange that part of the reasons for not running hooks
are tested inside run_buffer_list_update_hook, and others explicitly
here.  Any special reasons for this inconsistency?

> +DEFUN ("get-buffer-create", Fget_buffer_create, Sget_buffer_create, 1, 1, 0,
> +       doc: /* Return the buffer specified by BUFFER-OR-NAME, creating a new one if needed.
> +If BUFFER-OR-NAME is a string and a live buffer with that name exists,
> +return that buffer.  If no such buffer exists, create a new buffer with
> +that name and return it.  If BUFFER-OR-NAME starts with a space, the new
> +buffer does not keep undo information.
> +
> +If BUFFER-OR-NAME is a buffer instead of a string, return it as given,
> +even if it is dead.  The return value is never nil.  */)
> +     (Lisp_Object buffer_or_name)
> +{
> +  return get_buffer_create (buffer_or_name, false);
> +}

Should this function also acquire an additional optional argument?  If
not, why not?

> +Optional second argument INHIBIT-BUFFER-HOOKS non-nil means to not run
> +any buffer hooks ('kill-buffer-hook', 'buffer-list-update-hook' or
> +'kill-buffer-query-functions') for this buffer.  This argument should

The hooks should be quoted `like this', right?  We do want them to
become hyperlinks.

> +be set only for internal buffers that are never presented to users or
> +passed on to other applications.  */)
> +  (Lisp_Object name, Lisp_Object inhibit_buffer_hooks)
> +{
> +  Lisp_Object buffer_name = Fgenerate_new_buffer_name (name, Qnil);
> +  Lisp_Object buffer = get_buffer_create (buffer_name,
> +					  !NILP (inhibit_buffer_hooks));
> +
> +  if (!NILP (inhibit_buffer_hooks))
> +    {
> +     struct buffer *b = XBUFFER (buffer);
> +
> +     b->inhibit_buffer_hooks = true;
> +    }

Should this flag be set inside get_buffer_create?

> +Neither 'kill-buffer-query-functions' nor 'kill-buffer-hook' are run
> +for buffers created by 'generate-new-buffer' with the second argument
> +'inhibit-buffer-hooks' non-nil.

Quoting again.

> @@ -6268,9 +6334,9 @@ The function `kill-all-local-variables' runs this before doing anything else.  *
>  	       doc: /* Hook run when the buffer list changes.
>  Functions (implicitly) running this hook are `get-buffer-create',
>  `make-indirect-buffer', `rename-buffer', `kill-buffer', `bury-buffer'
> -and `select-window'.  Functions run by this hook should avoid calling
> -`select-window' with a nil NORECORD argument or `with-temp-buffer'
> -since either may lead to infinite recursion.  */);
> +and `select-window'.  This hook is not run for buffers created by
> +'generate-new-buffer' with the second argument 'inhibit-buffer-hooks'
> +non-nil.  */);

And here.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#34765; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
 buffer-list-update-hook
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
References: <cb005844-c8d3-593d-44fd-cd344bd23359@HIDDEN>
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From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
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>>   > How 'bout adding an optional argument to `generate-new-buffer` to s=
et
>>   > `inhibit_buffer_hooks`?
>>
>> How about moving 'generate-new-buffer' to C to set that flag without
>> exposing it to Lisp (and to avoid things like
>>
>>               ;; We can't use `generate-new-buffer' because files.el
>>               ;; is not yet loaded.
>>
>> in 'load-with-code-conversion')?
>
> Fine with me.

I attach a preliminary patch.

martin



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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
In-reply-to: <b61645f8-3575-3901-f9e9-bfdf4b44f382@HIDDEN> (message from
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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
 buffer-list-update-hook
References: <cb005844-c8d3-593d-44fd-cd344bd23359@HIDDEN>
 <5C7FD591.9090505@HIDDEN> <83lg1sc8ob.fsf@HIDDEN> <5C8009F3.5000405@HIDDEN>
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> Cc: 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:41:11 +0200
> 
>  >> How 'bout adding an optional argument to `generate-new-buffer` to set
>  >> `inhibit_buffer_hooks`?
>  >
>  > Fine with me, but aren't you afraid people will start abusing this?
> 
> I wouldn't pass an argument but rather set the flag unconditionally
> when NAME starts with a space ...

Too radical, IMO.




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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
In-reply-to: <11be4631-b087-52a3-92fe-4cbd5248908d@HIDDEN> (message from
 martin rudalics on Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:41:02 +0200)
Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
 buffer-list-update-hook
References: <cb005844-c8d3-593d-44fd-cd344bd23359@HIDDEN>
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> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:41:02 +0200
> 
>  > How 'bout adding an optional argument to `generate-new-buffer` to set
>  > `inhibit_buffer_hooks`?
> 
> How about moving 'generate-new-buffer' to C to set that flag without
> exposing it to Lisp (and to avoid things like
> 
>              ;; We can't use `generate-new-buffer' because files.el
>              ;; is not yet loaded.
> 
> in 'load-with-code-conversion')?

Fine with me.




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
 buffer-list-update-hook
References: <cb005844-c8d3-593d-44fd-cd344bd23359@HIDDEN>
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> Cc: 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 09:40:48 +0200
> 
>  >> Then what about the buffers created by 'with-temp-file' or
>  >> 'with-output-to-string'?
>  >
>  > Fine with me.  But the former already uses with-temp-buffer, so I
>  > don't think we need anything special for it.
> 
> Here 'with-temp-file' uses
> 
> (get-buffer-create (generate-new-buffer-name " *temp file*"))
> 
> and 'with-output-to-string'
> 
> (get-buffer-create (generate-new-buffer-name " *string-output*"))

Oops.




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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 >> How 'bout adding an optional argument to `generate-new-buffer` to set
 >> `inhibit_buffer_hooks`?
 >
 > Fine with me, but aren't you afraid people will start abusing this?

I wouldn't pass an argument but rather set the flag unconditionally
when NAME starts with a space ...

martin




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
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 > How 'bout adding an optional argument to `generate-new-buffer` to set
 > `inhibit_buffer_hooks`?

How about moving 'generate-new-buffer' to C to set that flag without
exposing it to Lisp (and to avoid things like

             ;; We can't use `generate-new-buffer' because files.el
             ;; is not yet loaded.

in 'load-with-code-conversion')?

martin




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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 >> Then what about the buffers created by 'with-temp-file' or
 >> 'with-output-to-string'?
 >
 > Fine with me.  But the former already uses with-temp-buffer, so I
 > don't think we need anything special for it.

Here 'with-temp-file' uses

(get-buffer-create (generate-new-buffer-name " *temp file*"))

and 'with-output-to-string'

(get-buffer-create (generate-new-buffer-name " *string-output*"))

martin




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 Monnier on Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:01:01 -0400)
Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1;
 with-temp-buffer should not run buffer-list-update-hook
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> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:01:01 -0400
> 
> How 'bout adding an optional argument to `generate-new-buffer` to set
> `inhibit_buffer_hooks`?

Fine with me, but aren't you afraid people will start abusing this?




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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1;
 with-temp-buffer should not run buffer-list-update-hook
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> -    `(let ((,temp-buffer (generate-new-buffer " *temp*")))
> +    `(let ((,temp-buffer
> +	    (let ((inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook t))
> +              (generate-new-buffer " *temp*"))))
>         ;; FIXME: kill-buffer can change current-buffer in some odd cases.
>         (with-current-buffer ,temp-buffer
>           (unwind-protect
>  	     (progn ,@body)
>             (and (buffer-name ,temp-buffer)
> -                (kill-buffer ,temp-buffer)))))))
> +	        (let ((inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook t))
> +                  (kill-buffer ,temp-buffer))))))))

Hmm... I was thinking we could expose `inhibit_buffer_hooks` as a Lisp
variable (so we can set it without having to match names, which I find
ugly and brittle), but we'd want to `setq` it rather than let-bind it.
But while it's easy to set it before running kill-buffer, we can't set
it before calling generate-new-buffer :-(

How 'bout adding an optional argument to `generate-new-buffer` to set
`inhibit_buffer_hooks`?


        Stefan




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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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> Cc: 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:31:20 +0200
> 
>  >>   > I meant to suggest that get-buffer-create sets this flag when the name
>  >>   > of the buffer fits the template of temporary buffers.  Exactly like it
>  >>   > does for code-conversion buffers now.
>  >>
>  >> We don't have a "template of temporary buffers".
>  >
>  > Of course we do: with-temp-buffer produces buffer names that follow
>  > such a template.
> 
> IIUC we'd need an expression similar to Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name
> to use in 'get-buffer-create'

That's what I meant, yes.

>  >> For example, a buffer specified by the BUFNAME arg of
>  >> 'with-output-to-temp-buffer' should not match such a template.
>  >
>  > Such buffers should not necessarily be exempt from running the hooks,
>  > AFAIU.  In any case, one can always bind the hook locally to nil in
>  > the body of the macro, right?
> 
> Unless the body changes the buffer list in some signifcant way, for
> example, by creating or deleting another buffer.

Sure, but that's why this should not be done unconditionally.

> Then what about the buffers created by 'with-temp-file' or
> 'with-output-to-string'?

Fine with me.  But the former already uses with-temp-buffer, so I
don't think we need anything special for it.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#34765; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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 >>   > I meant to suggest that get-buffer-create sets this flag when the name
 >>   > of the buffer fits the template of temporary buffers.  Exactly like it
 >>   > does for code-conversion buffers now.
 >>
 >> We don't have a "template of temporary buffers".
 >
 > Of course we do: with-temp-buffer produces buffer names that follow
 > such a template.

IIUC we'd need an expression similar to Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name
to use in 'get-buffer-create'

   b->inhibit_buffer_hooks
     = (STRINGP (Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name)
        && strncmp (SSDATA (name), SSDATA (Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name),
		   SBYTES (Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name)) == 0);

So we could specify, for example,

   staticpro (&Vtemp_buffer_name);
   Vtemp_buffer_name = build_pure_c_string (" *temp*");

and rewrite the above assignment as

   b->inhibit_buffer_hooks
     = ((STRINGP (Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name)
	&& strncmp (SSDATA (name), SSDATA (Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name),
		   SBYTES (Vcode_conversion_workbuf_name)) == 0)

        || (STRINGP (Vtemp_buffer_name)
	   && strncmp (SSDATA (name), SSDATA (Vtemp_buffer_name),
		       SBYTES (Vtemp_buffer_name)) == 0));

 >> For example, a buffer specified by the BUFNAME arg of
 >> 'with-output-to-temp-buffer' should not match such a template.
 >
 > Such buffers should not necessarily be exempt from running the hooks,
 > AFAIU.  In any case, one can always bind the hook locally to nil in
 > the body of the macro, right?

Unless the body changes the buffer list in some signifcant way, for
example, by creating or deleting another buffer.

 >> But I'd favor a solution that skips all buffers whose name starts
 >> with a space as we do for 'other-buffer' or 'unbury-buffer'.
 >
 > I think this is too drastic a measure.  We should only disable the
 > hooks in buffers where no one in their right minds will ever want to
 > run them.

Then what about the buffers created by 'with-temp-file' or
'with-output-to-string'?

martin




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#34765; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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> Cc: 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:06:18 +0200
> 
>  > I meant to suggest that get-buffer-create sets this flag when the name
>  > of the buffer fits the template of temporary buffers.  Exactly like it
>  > does for code-conversion buffers now.
> 
> We don't have a "template of temporary buffers".

Of course we do: with-temp-buffer produces buffer names that follow
such a template.

> For example, a buffer specified by the BUFNAME arg of
> 'with-output-to-temp-buffer' should not match such a template.

Such buffers should not necessarily be exempt from running the hooks,
AFAIU.  In any case, one can always bind the hook locally to nil in
the body of the macro, right?

> But I'd favor a solution that skips all buffers whose name starts
> with a space as we do for 'other-buffer' or 'unbury-buffer'.

I think this is too drastic a measure.  We should only disable the
hooks in buffers where no one in their right minds will ever want to
run them.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#34765; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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 > I meant to suggest that get-buffer-create sets this flag when the name
 > of the buffer fits the template of temporary buffers.  Exactly like it
 > does for code-conversion buffers now.

We don't have a "template of temporary buffers".  For example, a
buffer specified by the BUFNAME arg of 'with-output-to-temp-buffer'
should not match such a template.  But I'd favor a solution that skips
all buffers whose name starts with a space as we do for 'other-buffer'
or 'unbury-buffer'.  We'd just have to document it, maybe provide an
additional argument for 'buffer-list' to not return such buffers,
decide what to do when we rename them, when they visit a file, get
killed ...

martin




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From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1;
 with-temp-buffer should not run buffer-list-update-hook
Message-ID: <jwvo94vmul4.fsf-monnier+emacs@HIDDEN>
References: <cb005844-c8d3-593d-44fd-cd344bd23359@HIDDEN>
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> I meant to suggest that get-buffer-create sets this flag when the name
> of the buffer fits the template of temporary buffers.

That's a more drastic change, but it might be worth a try.


        Stefan




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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> Cc: 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Date: Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:27:59 +0200
> 
>  >> Stefan asked me to add a variable 'inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook'
>  >> and I came up with the attached.  WDYT?
>  >
>  > Did he also ask you to remove the inhibit_buffer_hooks flag of the
>  > buffer object?  I'd rather prefer that you set that flag for temporary
>  > buffers.  In any case, removing the flag will get back the problem
>  > with hidden buffers used by coding.c, right?  I don't want to lose
>  > that.
> 
> FWIW handling of the the inhibit_buffer_hooks flag is unaffected by my
> patch.

You are right, sorry.

>  > More generally, I don't understand the need for this variable.  If we
>  > just want to inhibit the hooks for temporary buffers, we don't need to
>  > provide a variable, we can do that internally and unconditionally.
>  > The variable assumes there are other legitimate use cases where a Lisp
>  > program would want to inhibit the hooks, and that we agree to let Lisp
>  > programs do that.  What are those use cases?
> 
> I don't know.  The one we care about in the case at hand is that of
> 'with-temp-buffer' which seems innocuous enough for being used in the
> body of a function run by 'buffer-list-update-hook'.  Since that macro
> is in subr.el and as such cannnot easily set the inhibit_buffer_hooks
> flag, the 'inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook' variable provides a simple
> workaround.

I meant to suggest that get-buffer-create sets this flag when the name
of the buffer fits the template of temporary buffers.  Exactly like it
does for code-conversion buffers now.




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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 >> Stefan asked me to add a variable 'inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook'
 >> and I came up with the attached.  WDYT?
 >
 > Did he also ask you to remove the inhibit_buffer_hooks flag of the
 > buffer object?  I'd rather prefer that you set that flag for temporary
 > buffers.  In any case, removing the flag will get back the problem
 > with hidden buffers used by coding.c, right?  I don't want to lose
 > that.

FWIW handling of the the inhibit_buffer_hooks flag is unaffected by my
patch.  Note that I special cased the call from 'make-indirect-buffer'
which is the only one that doesn't check that flag.

 > More generally, I don't understand the need for this variable.  If we
 > just want to inhibit the hooks for temporary buffers, we don't need to
 > provide a variable, we can do that internally and unconditionally.
 > The variable assumes there are other legitimate use cases where a Lisp
 > program would want to inhibit the hooks, and that we agree to let Lisp
 > programs do that.  What are those use cases?

I don't know.  The one we care about in the case at hand is that of
'with-temp-buffer' which seems innocuous enough for being used in the
body of a function run by 'buffer-list-update-hook'.  Since that macro
is in subr.el and as such cannnot easily set the inhibit_buffer_hooks
flag, the 'inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook' variable provides a simple
workaround.  But maybe Stefan himself can explain the rationale for
such a variable.  IIUC his main motivation was that by rebinding
'inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook' to nil one can from Lisp relax the
restrictions provided by my patch.

martin




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> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, alexanderm@HIDDEN,
>  Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
> Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2019 11:21:45 +0200
> 
> Stefan asked me to add a variable 'inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook'
> and I came up with the attached.  WDYT?

Did he also ask you to remove the inhibit_buffer_hooks flag of the
buffer object?  I'd rather prefer that you set that flag for temporary
buffers.  In any case, removing the flag will get back the problem
with hidden buffers used by coding.c, right?  I don't want to lose
that.

More generally, I don't understand the need for this variable.  If we
just want to inhibit the hooks for temporary buffers, we don't need to
provide a variable, we can do that internally and unconditionally.
The variable assumes there are other legitimate use cases where a Lisp
program would want to inhibit the hooks, and that we agree to let Lisp
programs do that.  What are those use cases?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#34765; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
 buffer-list-update-hook
From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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 Stefan Monnier <monnier@HIDDEN>
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
--------------61AE8C43FE2221FCE0B25FB5
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 >  >> Maybe we should indeed rebind 'buffer-list-update-hook' around the
 >  >> 'generate-new-buffer' and 'kill-buffer' calls of 'with-temp-buffer'.
 >  >
 >  > Wouldn't that be a backward-incompatible change?
 >
 > It would be a backward-incompatible change.
 >
 >  > How long did we call
 >  > that hook for temporary buffers?
 >
 > Ever since that hook existed.
 >
 >  > Also, can generate-new-buffer and/or
 >  > kill-buffer run some hooks which might modify other, non-temporary
 >  > buffers?
 >
 > 'generate-new-buffer' calls 'get-buffer-create' and that one runs only
 > 'buffer-list-update-hook'.  'kill-buffer' runs its usual hooks and if
 > one of them runs 'kill-buffer' for another buffer we'd have a problem.
 >
 > An even more radical solution would be to never run
 > 'buffer-list-update-hook' for buffers whose name starts with a space.
 > Backward-incompatible as well but cleaner from a designer's POV.
 >
 > In either case it wouldn't help the OP since he probably (hopefully)
 > won't need a solution for Emacs 27 (where he should be able to use
 > 'window-selection-change-functions' instead) and we are certainly not
 > going to change this for Emacs 26.

Stefan asked me to add a variable 'inhibit-buffer-list-update-hook'
and I came up with the attached.  WDYT?

martin

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--------------61AE8C43FE2221FCE0B25FB5--




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1;
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 > As I understand it: advising select-window served the purpose of
 > remembering the
 > current window so the modeline can be highlighted in tune with the
 > selection. The
 > advising code would also call force-mode-line-update, that in turn lead
 > to a re-calculation
 > of the frame title, in spacemacs this could in turn call format-spec,
 > that would use a
 > temp-buffer, that triggers buffer-list-update-hook, that triggers
 > treemacs' follow-mode
 > callback, that calls with-selected-window, that leads back to the
 > modeline's select-window
 > advice. That's more or less what the feedback loop looked like.

Thanks.  IIUC this means that we'll have to put an extra warning in
the doc-string of 'buffer-list-update-hook' to not kill, rename or
create buffers or select another window with NORECORD nil in its
functions.  I listed all functions calling that hook in the hope that
people would then avoid that but your example shows that such endless
recursions can be quite tricky to detect.

One major design goal of the new window change functions was to simply
not invoke them recursively so such scenarios should not happen there
(and was immediately proven wrong by the redisplay mechanism itself).

 >  > Can you pass me a corresponding URL?
 >
 > Did that already, Here it is again:
 > https://github.com/magit/magit/issues/3738#issuecomment-464520582

I thought you had another one (with more insight into how that problem
triggered).  But the scenario above is sufficient to imagine what can
happen ...

martin




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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To: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
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 > So what was the problem there?=C2=A0 How did 'buffer-list-update-hook' =
get
 > invoked in such a wild manner

As I understand it: advising select-window served the purpose of
remembering the
current window so the modeline can be highlighted in tune with the
selection. The
advising code would also call force-mode-line-update, that in turn lead
to a re-calculation
of the frame title, in spacemacs this could in turn call format-spec,
that would use a
temp-buffer, that triggers buffer-list-update-hook, that triggers
treemacs' follow-mode
callback, that calls with-selected-window, that leads back to the
modeline's select-window
advice. That's more or less what the feedback loop looked like.

Come to think of it, maybe just suppressing the hook during my own
window-selection
will do the trick.

 > This alone qualifies as a bug IMHO.

You'll have to take that up with Jonas. I linked this discussion in
github, so he'll probably
read this.

 > I think that creating a new temporary buffer should always be the
 > exception and never the rule.=C2=A0 Does the point moving happen in the
 > treemacs buffer or in that of a plain (probably git-controlled)
 > buffer?

You misunderstood. The issue only happened when the treemacs window was
visible,
but point was in magit's status buffer and a region was active (e.g.
when you want to
select single lines for staging or reverting). Non-magit buffers had no
issues.

 > Can you pass me a corresponding URL?

Did that already, Here it is again:
https://github.com/magit/magit/issues/3738#issuecomment-464520582





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 >  > And do not preserve NORECORD?
 >
 > They did.

So what was the problem there?  How did 'buffer-list-update-hook' get
invoked in such a wild manner?

 > It didn't. IIRC a temp buffer was created 2 or 3 times every time
 > I would move point.

This alone qualifies as a bug IMHO.

 > The problem is that this *somehow* triggered a
 > feedback loop with treemacs and magit feeding off each other. I
 > haven't really understood what happened there as that would require
 > some very deep digging inside magit's internals.

I think that creating a new temporary buffer should always be the
exception and never the rule.  Does the point moving happen in the
treemacs buffer or in that of a plain (probably git-controlled)
buffer?

 > There's a recipe for
 > emacs -q in the github issue if you want to see this for yourself.

Can you pass me a corresponding URL?

 >  > I see. But please try 'window-selection-change-functions'
 >  > sooner or later so we know whether it fixes these problems.
 >
 > Way ahead of you ;)
 > https://github.com/Alexander-Miller/treemacs/issues/321

Aha.

martin




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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 > And do not preserve NORECORD?

They did.

 > Maybe magit should simply try to reuse the same temporary buffer
 > instead of recreating it excessively. Creating/killing temporary
 > buffers does not come without some overhead.

It didn't. IIRC a temp buffer was created 2 or 3 times every time
I would move point. The problem is that this *somehow* triggered a
feedback loop with treemacs and magit feeding off each other. I
haven't really understood what happened there as that would require
some very deep digging inside magit's internals. There's a recipe for
emacs -q in the github issue if you want to see this for yourself.

 > I see. But please try 'window-selection-change-functions'
 > sooner or later so we know whether it fixes these problems.

Way ahead of you ;)
https://github.com/Alexander-Miller/treemacs/issues/321





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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1;
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 >> Maybe we should indeed rebind 'buffer-list-update-hook' around the
 >> 'generate-new-buffer' and 'kill-buffer' calls of 'with-temp-buffer'.
 >
 > Wouldn't that be a backward-incompatible change?

It would be a backward-incompatible change.

 > How long did we call
 > that hook for temporary buffers?

Ever since that hook existed.

 > Also, can generate-new-buffer and/or
 > kill-buffer run some hooks which might modify other, non-temporary
 > buffers?

'generate-new-buffer' calls 'get-buffer-create' and that one runs only
'buffer-list-update-hook'.  'kill-buffer' runs its usual hooks and if
one of them runs 'kill-buffer' for another buffer we'd have a problem.

An even more radical solution would be to never run
'buffer-list-update-hook' for buffers whose name starts with a space.
Backward-incompatible as well but cleaner from a designer's POV.

In either case it wouldn't help the OP since he probably (hopefully)
won't need a solution for Emacs 27 (where he should be able to use
'window-selection-change-functions' instead) and we are certainly not
going to change this for Emacs 26.

martin




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> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 15:13:37 +0100
> From: martin rudalics <rudalics@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 34765 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Maybe we should indeed rebind 'buffer-list-update-hook' around the
> 'generate-new-buffer' and 'kill-buffer' calls of 'with-temp-buffer'.

Wouldn't that be a backward-incompatible change?  How long did we call
that hook for temporary buffers?  Also, can generate-new-buffer and/or
kill-buffer run some hooks which might modify other, non-temporary
buffers?




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 > I do no understand the use-case you have in mind here. with-temp-buffer
 > serves to create a short-lived temporary buffer that is quickly disposed
 > of again. When would such a buffer be shown anywhere?

I confused this 'with-output-to-temp-buffer'.  Maybe we should indeed
rebind 'buffer-list-update-hook' around the 'generate-new-buffer' and
'kill-buffer' calls of 'with-temp-buffer'.

 >  > I'm afraid you have to dig further to find out how
 >  > 'buffer-list-update-hook' precisely gets called here.
 >
 > Did that, turns out it's down to mode-line packages, both powerline and
 > doom-modeline are advising select-window.

And do not preserve NORECORD?

 > I'll create PRs for both.
 >
 >  > What was the issue there?
 >
 > Same feedback loop as described above, except it would only happen
 > when a region was active in magit's status buffer. I had tracked
 > the cause to a temp buffer deep inside magit's internals. Here's the
 > github link:
 > https://github.com/magit/magit/issues/3738#issuecomment-464520582

Maybe magit should simply try to reuse the same temporary buffer
instead of recreating it excessively.  Creating/killing temporary
buffers does not come without some overhead.

 >  > Emacs 27 now has 'window-selection-change-functions', strongly
 >  > tied to redisplay and triggering only when the window selection has
 >  > changed since last redisplay. Maybe you could try that.
 >
 > This problem occurs in my treemacs package, so I cannot use a solution
 > provided by a bleeding edge release, my modus operandi is to support the
 > last 2 versions of emacs, so 25 and 26 (since stable distros like debian
 > still use emacs 25). At any rate I have found the culprit in those modeline
 > packages, so that point is solved.

I see.  But please try 'window-selection-change-functions' sooner or
later so we know whether it fixes these problems.

martin




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Subject: Re: bug#34765: 26.1; with-temp-buffer should not run
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 > When you show a temporary buffer and temporarily show another
 > buffer in the same window, there must be a way to show the temporary
 > buffer again.

I do no understand the use-case you have in mind here. with-temp-buffer
serves to create a short-lived temporary buffer that is quickly disposed
of again. When would such a buffer be shown anywhere?

 > I'm afraid you have to dig further to find out how
 > 'buffer-list-update-hook' precisely gets called here.

Did that, turns out it's down to mode-line packages, both powerline and
doom-modeline are advising select-window. I'll create PRs for both.

 > What was the issue there?

Same feedback loop as described above, except it would only happen
when a region was active in magit's status buffer. I had tracked
the cause to a temp buffer deep inside magit's internals. Here's the
github link:
https://github.com/magit/magit/issues/3738#issuecomment-464520582

 > Emacs 27 now has 'window-selection-change-functions', strongly
 > tied to redisplay and triggering only when the window selection has
 > changed since last redisplay. Maybe you could try that.

This problem occurs in my treemacs package, so I cannot use a solution
provided by a bleeding edge release, my modus operandi is to support the
last 2 versions of emacs, so 25 and 26 (since stable distros like debian
still use emacs 25). At any rate I have found the culprit in those modeline
packages, so that point is solved.





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bug#34765; Package emacs. Full text available.

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 > To quote from the documentation of select-window:
 >
 > Selections that "really count" are those
 > causing a visible change in the next redisplay of WINDOW=E2=80=99s fra=
me and
 > should be always recorded. So if you think of running a function each
 > time a window gets selected put it on =E2=80=98buffer-list-update-hook=
=E2=80=99.
 >
 > A temporary buffer hardly fits these criteria.

You're probably right but there's not much we can do in this regard.
When you show a temporary buffer and temporarily show another buffer
in the same window, there must be a way to show the temporary buffer
again.  That's why we have to run 'buffer-list-update-hook' for them.

 > The problem is not just
 > theoretical either. I have now run multiple times into situations wher=
e
 > use of a temp buffer caused a feedback loop that makes
 > buffer-list-update-hook fire permanently. For example a function calle=
d
 > by buffer-list-update-hook uses with-selected-window, this causes a
 > recalculation of the frame title, that calls format-spec, which uses a=

 > temp-buffer and we are back to step one. Granted this case is very
 > specific to spacemacs and I am unable to reproduce it from emacs -q
 > (with-selected-window does not recalculate the frame title here), but
 > this is already the second time I've run into this

'with-selected-window' calls 'select-window' with NORECORD non-nil, so
this should not be the culprit.  I'm afraid you have to dig further to
find out how 'buffer-list-update-hook' precisely gets called here.

 > (first time it was
 > magit).

What was the issue there?

 > So yeah, with-temp-buffer correction aside, if you have any advice how=

 > to avoid the issue on my end without going back to advising
 > select-window that'd be great.

Emacs 27 now has 'window-selection-change-functions', strongly tied to
redisplay and triggering only when the window selection has changed
since last redisplay.  Maybe you could try that.

martin





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To quote from the documentation of select-window:

Selections that "really count" are those
causing a visible change in the next redisplay of WINDOW=E2=80=99s frame a=
nd
should be always recorded. So if you think of running a function each
time a window gets selected put it on =E2=80=98buffer-list-update-hook=E2=
=80=99.

A temporary buffer hardly fits these criteria. The problem is not just
theoretical either. I have now run multiple times into situations where
use of a temp buffer caused a feedback loop that makes
buffer-list-update-hook fire permanently. For example a function called
by buffer-list-update-hook uses with-selected-window, this causes a
recalculation of the frame title, that calls format-spec, which uses a
temp-buffer and we are back to step one. Granted this case is very
specific to spacemacs and I am unable to reproduce it from emacs -q
(with-selected-window does not recalculate the frame title here), but
this is already the second time I've run into this (first time it was
magit).

So yeah, with-temp-buffer correction aside, if you have any advice how
to avoid the issue on my end without going back to advising
select-window that'd be great.

In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.30)
of 2018-07-05 built on juergen
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12003000
Recent messages:
eval((spacemacs/title-prepare "%I@%SXXX"))
redisplay_internal\ \(C\ function\)()

spacemacs/title-prepare
Mark set
Mark saved where search started
Quit [2 times]
Mark saved where search started
uncompressing format-spec.el.gz...done
Note: file is write protected

Configured using:
'configure --prefix=3D/usr --sysconfdir=3D/etc --libexecdir=3D/usr/lib
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'CFLAGS=3D-march=3Dx86-64 -mtune=3Dgeneric -O2 -pipe -fstack-protector-str=
ong
-fno-plt' CPPFLAGS=3D-D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=3D2
LDFLAGS=3D-Wl,-O1,--sort-common,--as-needed,-z,relro,-z,now'

Configured features:
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/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-archive
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-archive
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-gnuplot
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-gnuplot
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-stan
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-stan
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-w3m
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-w3m
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-colview
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-colview
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ox-html
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ox-html
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-fortran
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-fortran
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-groovy
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-groovy
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-list
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-list
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-faces
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-faces
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-lob
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-lob
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-eww
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-eww
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-lua
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-lua
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-feed
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-feed
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-sqlite
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-sqlite
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-haskell
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-haskell
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-src
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-src
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-install
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-install
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-emacs-lisp
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-emacs-lisp
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-shen
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-shen
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ox-latex
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ox-latex
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-mobile
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-mobile
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-processing
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-processing
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-attach
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-attach
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-ledger
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-ledger
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-ctags
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-ctags
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ox-publish
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ox-publish
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-ocaml
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-ocaml
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-vala
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-vala
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-info
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-info
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/org-docview
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/org-docview
/home/a/.emacs.d/elpa/26.1/develop/org-plus-contrib-20181230/ob-coq
hides /usr/share/emacs/26.1/lisp/org/ob-coq

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr emacsbug helm-command evil-nerd-commenter
evil-nerd-commenter-operator evil-nerd-commenter-sdk smartparens-html
sgml-mode helm-xref semantic/symref/grep grep semantic/symref helm-ag
helm-elisp helm-eval org-indent org-table company-shell fish-mode
org-clock diary-lib diary-loaddefs cal-iso vc-mtn vc-hg org-eldoc
ob-python ob-shell org-bullets org-download toc-org org-eww org-rmail
org-mhe org-irc org-info org-gnus nnir gnus-sum gnus-group gnus-undo
gnus-start gnus-cloud nnimap nnmail mail-source utf7 netrc nnoo
gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range gnus-win gnus nnheader org-docview
org-bibtex bibtex org-bbdb org-w3m smartparens-org org-habit
german-holidays org-agenda org-mu4e mu4e-conversation shr svg dom
gnus-dired mu4e desktop frameset mu4e-speedbar mu4e-main mu4e-view
mu4e-headers mu4e-compose mu4e-context mu4e-draft mu4e-actions rfc2368
smtpmail sendmail mu4e-mark mu4e-message flow-fill html2text mu4e-proc
mu4e-utils doc-view jka-compr image-mode mu4e-lists mu4e-vars mu4e-meta
orgit org-element avl-tree generator org ob ob-tangle ob-ref ob-lob
ob-table ob-exp org-macro org-footnote org-src ob-comint ob-keys
org-pcomplete org-list org-faces org-entities org-version ob-emacs-lisp
ob-core ob-eval org-compat org-macs org-loaddefs cal-menu calendar
cal-loaddefs swiper ivy delsel colir ivy-overlay tabify debug macrostep
semantic/find helm-semantic helm-imenu semantic/util-modes semantic/util
semantic semantic/tag semantic/lex semantic/fw mode-local cedet mwim
eieio-opt speedbar sb-image ezimage dframe face-remap gravatar url-cache
ffap magit-gitflow treemacs-magit evil-magit git-rebase forge-list
forge-commands forge-semi forge-bitbucket buck forge-gogs gogs
forge-gitea gtea forge-gitlab glab forge-github ghub-graphql treepy
graphql ghub let-alist forge-notify forge-revnote forge-pullreq
forge-issue forge-topic forge-post forge-repo forge forge-core forge-db
closql emacsql-sqlite emacsql emacsql-compiler magit-bookmark
magit-submodule magit-obsolete magit-popup magit-blame magit-stash
magit-bisect magit-push magit-pull magit-fetch magit-clone magit-remote
magit-commit magit-sequence magit-notes magit-worktree magit-tag
magit-merge magit-branch magit-reset magit-files magit-refs magit-status
magit magit-repos magit-apply magit-wip magit-log which-func magit-diff
smerge-mode magit-core magit-autorevert magit-margin magit-transient
magit-process magit-mode transient git-commit magit-git magit-section
magit-utils crm log-edit message rfc822 mml mml-sec epa gnus-util rmail
rmail-loaddefs mailabbrev mail-utils gmm-utils mailheader pcvs-util
add-log with-editor async-bytecomp flx dired dired-loaddefs helm-x-files
helm-for-files helm-bookmark helm-adaptive helm-info helm-external
helm-net browse-url xml framey helm-descbinds helm-mode helm-files
helm-buffers helm-tags helm-locate helm-grep helm-regexp helm-utils
helm-help helm-types helm-flx helm helm-source helm-multi-match helm-lib
async cl-print evil-surround edebug lsp-treemacs recentf vc-bzr vc-src
vc-sccs vc-svn vc-cvs vc-rcs vc vc-dispatcher company-lsp importmagic
epc ctable concurrent deferred flycheck-rust lsp-ui-flycheck lsp-ui
lsp-ui-doc smartparens-markdown markdown-mode lsp-ui-imenu lsp-ui-peek
lsp-ui-sideline view lsp-clients dash-functional lsp lsp-mode
tree-widget spinner network-stream starttls em-glob esh-util
flymake-proc flymake hi-lock evil-matchit evil-matchit-sdk
smartparens-python python tramp-sh tramp tramp-compat tramp-loaddefs
trampver ucs-normalize parse-time vc-git diff-mode treemacs-evil
treemacs treemacs-compatibility treemacs-mode treemacs-interface
treemacs-extensions treemacs-persistence treemacs-mouse-interface
treemacs-tag-follow-mode treemacs-filewatch-mode treemacs-tags imenu
treemacs-follow-mode treemacs-rendering treemacs-async treemacs-faces
treemacs-icons treemacs-workspaces treemacs-dom treemacs-visuals
treemacs-fringe-indicator treemacs-impl treemacs-macros pfuture
ace-window avy treemacs-customization bookmark pp evil-escape
display-line-numbers git-gutter-fringe fringe-helper git-gutter
company-flx company-files company-keywords company-etags company-gtags
company-template company-dabbrev-code company-dabbrev company-yasnippet
company-capf company-quickhelp company overseer pkg-info url-http tls
gnutls url url-proxy url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history
mailcap url-auth url-cookie url-domsuf url-util url-gw nsm rmc puny epl
compile auto-compile packed elisp-slime-nav etags xref rainbow-mode
goto-addr bug-reference flycheck-pos-tip pos-tip flycheck-ledger
flycheck json map find-func hideshow yasnippet-snippets yasnippet
rainbow-delimiters elec-pair evil-cleverparens
evil-cleverparens-text-objects evil-cleverparens-util paredit eros
cap-words superword subword doom-modeline doom-modeline-segments
doom-modeline-env doom-modeline-core project shrink-path eldoc-eval
all-the-icons all-the-icons-faces data-material data-weathericons
data-octicons data-fileicons data-faicons data-alltheicons memoize
inline powerline powerline-separators color powerline-themes
smartparens-config smartparens-text smartparens winum shackle trace
eyebrowse evil-goggles pulse f s dash server winner xterm-color
saveplace savehist noutline outline gh-common marshal hybrid-mode
evil-evilified-state which-key use-package use-package-ensure
use-package-delight use-package-diminish use-package-bind-key bind-key
use-package-core hydra lv cus-edit cus-start cus-load evil
evil-integration undo-tree diff evil-maps evil-commands reveal flyspell
ispell evil-jumps evil-command-window evil-types evil-search evil-ex
shell pcomplete comint ansi-color evil-macros evil-repeat evil-states
evil-core evil-common windmove thingatpt rect evil-digraphs evil-vars
ring bind-map quelpa mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231
rfc2047 rfc2045%




Acknowledgement sent to Alexander Miller <alexanderm@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#34765; Package emacs. Full text available.
Please note: This is a static page, with minimal formatting, updated once a day.
Click here to see this page with the latest information and nicer formatting.
Last modified: Fri, 26 Apr 2019 11:30:02 UTC

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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.