GNU bug report logs - #35076
[26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
To: Emacs Bug Reporting <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:04:03 -0400

I don't see any command or recommended method for deleting a face. Is
there one? Shouldn't there either be one, or a discussion about it in
the documentation?

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Message #8 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
To: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 01:15:37 +0100

Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com> writes:

> I don't see any command or recommended method for deleting a face. Is
> there one? Shouldn't there either be one, or a discussion about it in
> the documentation?

FWIW, this was recently discussed on the Emacs Stack Exchange forum:
https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/48443/15748

-- 
Basil

Message #11 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
To: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:38:37 -0400

Thanks for the reference. It doesn't seem resolved there.

On 2019-04-02 01:15, Basil L. Contovounesios wrote:
> Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com> writes:
>
> > I don't see any command or recommended method for deleting a face. Is
> > there one? Shouldn't there either be one, or a discussion about it in
> > the documentation?
>
> FWIW, this was recently discussed on the Emacs Stack Exchange forum:
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/q/48443/15748
>

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Message #14 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 17:33:18 +0300

> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:04:03 -0400
> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
> 
> I don't see any command or recommended method for deleting a face. Is
> there one? Shouldn't there either be one, or a discussion about it in
> the documentation?

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would we need such a method?
What would be a practical use case where it's necessary to delete a
face (as opposed to simply leaving it alone and not using it)?

I'm asking because implementing this will not be trivial, what with
all the places where faces are recorded and cached, so we'd need a
good reason to do that.  OTOH, Emacs already knows how to replace a
face when it is redefined, so it isn't like we waste memory here.

Message #17 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: RE: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Tue, 2 Apr 2019 08:03:56 -0700 (PDT)

> > I don't see any command or recommended method for deleting a face. Is
> > there one? Shouldn't there either be one, or a discussion about it in
> > the documentation?
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something, but why would we need such a method?
> What would be a practical use case where it's necessary to delete a
> face (as opposed to simply leaving it alone and not using it)?
> 
> I'm asking because implementing this will not be trivial, what with
> all the places where faces are recorded and cached, so we'd need a
> good reason to do that.  OTOH, Emacs already knows how to replace a
> face when it is redefined, so it isn't like we waste memory here.

I almost posted the same question.  On reflection I
thought that it can be helpful to users (and programs)
not to have to have such "extra", unwanted, unused
faces laying about, remaining in a session.

How so?  Mainly UI considerations.  Useless choices for
`M-x customize face' and other uses of `read-face-*'.
Less noise in the output of `list-faces-display'.

If there are enough such dead-weight faces then it also
might affect performance slightly, depending on the use,
but this isn't what I'd worry about.

I can't speak for the OP, but the nuisance of having
such faces linger as UI noise is one reason, I think

Yes, users can redefine a face to just inherit from
`default', but the above considerations still apply.

I think it would be good if users could delete faces,
just like they undefine or unbind keys or unintern
symbols.  How costly it might be to implement this
feature is an counter consideration.

Message #20 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
Cc: contovob <at> tcd.ie, 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2019 18:10:37 +0300

> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:38:37 -0400
> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
> Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Thanks for the reference. It doesn't seem resolved there.

Neither does it explain why this is needed, FWIW.

Message #23 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 19:09:36 -0700

tags 35076 + wontfix
close 35076
thanks

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 20:04:03 -0400
>> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
>>
>> I don't see any command or recommended method for deleting a face. Is
>> there one? Shouldn't there either be one, or a discussion about it in
>> the documentation?
>
> Maybe I'm missing something, but why would we need such a method?
> What would be a practical use case where it's necessary to delete a
> face (as opposed to simply leaving it alone and not using it)?
>
> I'm asking because implementing this will not be trivial, what with
> all the places where faces are recorded and cached, so we'd need a
> good reason to do that.  OTOH, Emacs already knows how to replace a
> face when it is redefined, so it isn't like we waste memory here.

The above quote by Eli makes it clear that we would need a very good
reason to do something like this.  It seems like we are missing that
here, and no further details have been given within over a year.

I'm therefore closing this bug report as wontfix.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #30 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:35:43 -0400

Suddenly Eli can't speak or act for himself? If within the GNU project
you're his manager or his superior, great then I see nothing wrong in
your intervention on his behalf. I just don't understand enough about
how the project is organized. From the limited e-mail traffic I receive,
it seems that Eli's task is mainly to remove bugs and deficiencies from
emacs by producing, and that your's is mainly to remove bugs and
deficiencies from emacs by just closing them.

On 2020-08-20 19:09, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> The above quote by Eli makes it clear that we would need a very good
> reason to do something like this.  It seems like we are missing that
> here, and no further details have been given within over a year.
>
> I'm therefore closing this bug report as wontfix.

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Message #33 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 09:33:01 +0300

> Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:35:43 -0400
> From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Suddenly Eli can't speak or act for himself? If within the GNU project
> you're his manager or his superior, great then I see nothing wrong in
> your intervention on his behalf. I just don't understand enough about
> how the project is organized. From the limited e-mail traffic I receive,
> it seems that Eli's task is mainly to remove bugs and deficiencies from
> emacs by producing, and that your's is mainly to remove bugs and
> deficiencies from emacs by just closing them.

That is incorrect and unkind.  Stefan does a very welcome job (as do
others) of cleaning up forgotten bug reports which received no
attention or whose discussion lapsed.  I personally don't always have
time to scan old bug reports and close them, after some initial
communication about it.  Stefan and others help by taking care of bug
reports which I failed to handle correctly or timely.  I'm infinitely
thankful to them for doing this mundane job, and I think we all should
be grateful.  They make the project more successful and our bug DB
cleaner.

As it happens in this case, Stefan interpreted what I meant correctly,
but in the few cases where he misunderstands, I can always speak up
and explain the misunderstanding.  And if that means a bug should be
reopened, it takes just one email to do so.

So if you have any objections to closing this bug report, please voice
them, and we will reconsider if necessary.

TIA

Message #36 received at 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: bug#35076: [26.1] delete-face [FEATURE REQUEST]
Date: Fri, 21 Aug 2020 04:17:23 -0400

On 2020-08-21 09:33, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2020 23:35:43 -0400
> > From: Boruch Baum <boruch_baum <at> gmx.com>
> > Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 35076 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > Suddenly Eli can't speak or act for himself? If within the GNU project
> > you're his manager or his superior, great then I see nothing wrong in
> > your intervention on his behalf. I just don't understand enough
> > about how the project is organized. From the limited e-mail traffic I receive,
> > it seems that Eli's task is mainly to remove bugs and deficiencies from
> > emacs by producing, and that your's is mainly to remove bugs and
> > deficiencies from emacs by just closing them.
>
> That is incorrect

Good to know.

> and unkind.

Not my intent at all.

> ...

> I'm infinitely thankful to them for doing this mundane job, and I
> think we all should be grateful. They make the project more successful
> and our bug DB cleaner.

Like I wrote above, "I just don't understand enough about how the
project is organized".

> ...

> So if you have any objections to closing this bug report, please voice
> them, and we will reconsider if necessary.

For something like this, It's not my style to repeat myself. My argument
was rejected. Although I disagree, I accept that and move on.

And since you did write, this is a perfect opportunity to congratulate
you on and thank you for the release of version 27!

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