Package: emacs;
Reported by: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 19:52:02 UTC
Severity: wishlist
Tags: notabug, wontfix
Found in version 26.1
Done: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.
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bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Fri, 24 May 2019 19:52:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>:bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org.
(Fri, 24 May 2019 19:52:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org Subject: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 13:51:27 -0600
In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the buffer. Please revert this. Users that wish it are free to enable it. Yes I know I can disable it. For others looking and finding this message this following will disable it. (setq global-eldoc-mode nil) But one should not always have to be disabling annoying features. People should be required to enable annoying features. Line from the movie Ready Player One that I think applies. Suits in a boardroom meeting. "We have found that we can obscure up to 80% of the user's vision with advertisements before seizures occur." Bob In GNU Emacs 26.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, X toolkit, Xaw3d scroll bars) of 2019-02-03, modified by Debian built on zam904 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) Recent messages: Composing main Info directory...done Mark saved where search started [2 times] Mark set next-line: End of buffer [3 times] Saving file /home/bob/.timelog... Wrote /home/bob/.timelog Saving file /home/bob/.timelog... Wrote /home/bob/.timelog You can run the command ‘timeclock-change’ with C-x t c Wrote /home/bob/.timelog Configured using: 'configure --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/lib --localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info --mandir=/usr/share/man --enable-libsystemd --with-pop=yes --enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp --with-sound=alsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils --build x86_64-linux-gnu --prefix=/usr --sharedstatedir=/var/lib --libexecdir=/usr/lib --localstatedir=/var/lib --infodir=/usr/share/info --mandir=/usr/share/man --enable-libsystemd --with-pop=yes --enable-locallisppath=/etc/emacs:/usr/local/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/local/share/emacs/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/26.1/site-lisp:/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp --with-sound=alsa --without-gconf --with-mailutils --with-x=yes --with-x-toolkit=lucid --with-toolkit-scroll-bars --without-gsettings 'CFLAGS=-g -O2 -fdebug-prefix-map=/build/emacs-26.1+1=. -fstack-protector-strong -Wformat -Werror=format-security -Wall' 'CPPFLAGS=-Wdate-time -D_FORTIFY_SOURCE=2' LDFLAGS=-Wl,-z,relro' Configured features: XAW3D XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND GPM DBUS NOTIFY ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS LUCID X11 THREADS LIBSYSTEMD LCMS2 Important settings: value of $LC_COLLATE: C value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8 locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix Major mode: Fundamental Minor modes in effect: display-time-mode: t tooltip-mode: t global-eldoc-mode: t mouse-wheel-mode: t tool-bar-mode: t file-name-shadow-mode: t global-font-lock-mode: t font-lock-mode: t auto-composition-mode: t auto-encryption-mode: t auto-compression-mode: t line-number-mode: t Load-path shadows: /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/debian-el-37/debian-autoloads hides 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lcms2 dynamic-setting font-render-setting x-toolkit x multi-tty make-network-process emacs) Memory information: ((conses 16 173340 8996) (symbols 48 23043 1) (miscs 40 69 342) (strings 32 41456 1758) (string-bytes 1 1182643) (vectors 16 15579) (vector-slots 8 484842 5230) (floats 8 79 295) (intervals 56 12955 0) (buffers 992 15))
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Fri, 24 May 2019 20:48:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #8 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: npostavs <at> gmail.com To: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 16:47:09 -0400
Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> writes: > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the > buffer. Your description of "flashing" suggests that maybe you some graphical glitching? When I see the eldoc text show up in the minibuffer there is nothing that I would call "flashing". The text just appears normally.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Fri, 24 May 2019 21:36:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #11 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> To: npostavs <at> gmail.com Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 15:35:25 -0600
npostavs <at> gmail.com wrote:
> Bob Proulx writes:
> > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is
> > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings
> > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the
> > buffer.
>
> Your description of "flashing" suggests that maybe you some graphical
> glitching? When I see the eldoc text show up in the minibuffer there is
> nothing that I would call "flashing". The text just appears normally.
You misunderstand my words. I said "as the point moves around in the
buffer". Which means that this is due to the point moving around the
buffer. This is not a graphics artifact. To test this use text mode
emacs in a text terminal to ensure that you will have no graphics
artifacts from emacs.
Let's assume an elisp construct. Put the cursor on the (defun line
then move down to the doc string line. The second line in the below.
(defun unfill-paragraph (&optional region) ; Thanks to Stefan Monnier
"Takes a multi-line paragraph and makes it into a single line of text."
(interactive (progn (barf-if-buffer-read-only) '(t)))
(let ((fill-column (point-max))
;; This would override `fill-column' if it's an integer.
(emacs-lisp-docstring-fill-column t))
(fill-paragraph nil region)))
The following string appears in the minibuffer. The DOCSTRING word is
highlighted.
defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional *DOCSTRING* DECL &rest BODY)
C-n or Down-Arrow to move to the next line. This then appears in the
minibuffer.
defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional DOCSTRING *DECL* &rest BODY)
The DECL word is hightlighted. C-n again.
defun: (NAME ARGLIST &optional DOCSTRING DECL &rest *BODY*)
The BODY word is highlighted. C-n again. On the comment line. The
minibuffer is cleared. No message there.
C-n again. No message. C-n again. The flil-paragraph line. The
following appears. The BODY word is highlighted.
let: (VARLIST *BODY*...)
C-n again. Blank line. The minibuffer is cleared.
The above is a small snippet I selected for this example. But now do
this through a large elisp file. With every C-n next-line movement
the minibuffer is displaying or clearing a doc string hint. With
every next-line movement the highlighted word in the minibuffer is
moving from one word to another word.
This is driving me crazy! This continous activity, changing, and
flashing is extremely annoying.
The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When
things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it
is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such
as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark
set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting
distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and
comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload.
This increases use fatigue.
Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode.
Bob
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Fri, 24 May 2019 22:39:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #14 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> To: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>, npostavs <at> gmail.com Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 01:38:27 +0300
On 25.05.2019 0:35, Bob Proulx wrote: > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. So... do you not like ElDoc at all? AFAIK, it's a fairly popular feature. And Emacs 26.1 was released a year ago already. I think you're the first user to complain about this new default.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Fri, 24 May 2019 23:25:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #17 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 17:24:41 -0600
Dmitry Gutov wrote: > Bob Proulx wrote: > > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. > > So... do you not like ElDoc at all? I haven't tried eldoc-mode so I don't know. I know that I do NOT like the over-exuberance of global-eldoc-mode on elisp files. It is global-eldoc-mode that I am talking about here. Normally when I want to look up the syntax of "if" or "let" as is the majority of the noise from global-eldoc-mode, I put the cursor on the function and then C-h f RET to look at the help for that function. It's quick and simple and gives even more information than the syntax hint given by global-eldoc-mode. And of course that works for the more interesting and complex functions one might need a reminder about too. > AFAIK, it's a fairly popular feature. And Emacs 26.1 was released a year ago > already. I think you're the first user to complain about this new default. I am one of the many users of the stable distributions. Today was the first day that I experienced this behavior. I don't usually make these types of bug reports. I usually just suck it up and silently increase the size of my .emacs file with the code to fix the problem. I did that again today because switching to fundamental-mode was even more annoying. But today I was annoyed enough to submit a bug report. I email'd a friend and he is still using emacs 24 so wasn't seeing this yet but thanked me for the information for when he must upgrade futher. I know that there are a large number of users in addition to me that is not leading on the bleeding edge builds and will eventually see this as yet another nuiscance that makes Emacs tedious to use. Yet another customization that is required before Emacs is usable. While many people live on the bleeding edge a large number of us like stability. I have 3846 unique packages installed on my desktop. Must I track the bleeding edge for all of them in order to keep up with development changes such as this? Bob
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sat, 25 May 2019 02:22:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #20 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com> To: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400
Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> writes: > This is driving me crazy! This continous activity, changing, and > flashing is extremely annoying. > > The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. [...] > But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting > distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and > comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload. > This increases use fatigue. > > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. Hmm, well I like the current default. I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled. But I could live with having to turn it on in my init file. Not really sure on what basis we could decide on the default (sometimes people throw out the suggestion of polling the users, but I don't know of any practical way of getting a representative sample).
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sat, 25 May 2019 06:21:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #23 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> To: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bob <at> proulx.com Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 09:19:53 +0300
> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com> > Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400 > Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. > > Hmm, well I like the current default. I find it handy when writing Lisp code, yes. > I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older > Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled. I think "emacs -Q" should turn off both global-eldoc-mode and blink-cursor mode. But that's a different issue, IMO, which is worth a separate bug report. > Not really sure on what basis we could decide on the default (sometimes > people throw out the suggestion of polling the users, but I don't know > of any practical way of getting a representative sample). The only way to decide how many people find it annoying is to wait for more complaints. For now, we have only one, and that's not enough to decide to revert a feature. Sorry, Bob.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sat, 25 May 2019 08:01:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #26 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at> To: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>, npostavs <at> gmail.com Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sat, 25 May 2019 10:00:02 +0200
> The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When > things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it > is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such > as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark > set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting > distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and > comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload. > This increases use fatigue. I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying. What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely useless (for me) informations. So while I agree with you that ‘global-eldoc-mode’ should never have been enabled by default, I consider it a minor annoyance compared to the ones I described above. At least you've found out how to turn it off. martin
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sun, 26 May 2019 11:52:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #29 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com>, bob <at> proulx.com Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 12:51:41 +0100
Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> From: Noam Postavsky <npostavs <at> gmail.com> >> Date: Fri, 24 May 2019 22:21:50 -0400 >> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> >> > Please revert the default enabling of global-eldoc-mode. >> >> Hmm, well I like the current default. > > I find it handy when writing Lisp code, yes. > >> I find it annoying when I'm troubleshooting with 'emacs -Q' in older >> Emacs versions that eldoc isn't enabled. > > I think "emacs -Q" should turn off both global-eldoc-mode and > blink-cursor mode. But that's a different issue, IMO, which is worth > a separate bug report. +1 on both counts. -- Basil
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Mon, 27 May 2019 03:24:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #32 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> To: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>, 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sun, 26 May 2019 20:23:17 -0700 (PDT)
> Please revert this. Users that wish it are free to enable it. Absolutely. +1.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Mon, 27 May 2019 20:32:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #35 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> To: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 23:30:56 +0300
>> The minibuffer is where I expect to find useful editor feedback. When >> things happen there I look to see what it is telling me. Sometimes it >> is an error message. Sometimes it is direct dialog interaction such >> as for find-file. Sometimes it is simply information such as "Mark >> set". But with global-eldoc-mode enabled it is continously posting >> distractions in the minibuffer that I must look at, read and >> comprehend, and then ignore. This increases the editing workload. >> This increases use fatigue. > > I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying > beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying. > What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means > that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll > an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the > echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely > useless (for me) informations. Why customizing inhibit-message to t doesn't inhibit these messages? > So while I agree with you that ‘global-eldoc-mode’ should never have > been enabled by default, I consider it a minor annoyance compared to > the ones I described above. At least you've found out how to turn it > off. I turn ‘global-eldoc-mode’ off too, but I think it should be enabled by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature that their IDEs have.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Mon, 27 May 2019 22:32:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #38 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net>, martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Subject: RE: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 15:31:33 -0700 (PDT)
> I turn ‘global-eldoc-mode’ off too, but I think it should be enabled > by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature > that their IDEs have. Fair enough. But on the flip side, better that a newbie should learn, early, that there is much more to Emacs than first meets the eye. And learn, early on, how to discover for herself such non-default features. I disagree, in general (yes, abstractly, and such things should really be decided mostly case by case), with the idea of showing things initially just to be sure users notice them. That's not a strong reason. We sometimes hear it espoused also as a reason for turning on some shiny new behavior: so users will notice it. Not a great reason, on its own. We have NEWS for that (and Sacha's tangents newsletter and... ___ As for discoverability (a larger question) - 1. There's little substitute now for a newbie learning the help keys (`C-h`...) at the outset. 2. Menus can help. 3. Google etc. help (word-of-mouth in our era). 4. But Emacs could offer more aids to discoverability. Instead of turning things on by default so users can easily see they exist, we'd be better off adding more discovery help. (Emacs is, after all, the self-documenting editor.)
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Tue, 28 May 2019 15:55:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #41 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob <at> tcd.ie> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> Cc: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>, 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com>, Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 16:54:31 +0100
Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes: >> I turn ‘global-eldoc-mode’ off too, but I think it should be enabled >> by default to demonstrate to newbies that Emacs has the same feature >> that their IDEs have. > > Fair enough. But on the flip side, better that a > newbie should learn, early, that there is much more > to Emacs than first meets the eye. And learn, early > on, how to discover for herself such non-default > features. > > I disagree, in general (yes, abstractly, and such > things should really be decided mostly case by case), > with the idea of showing things initially just to be > sure users notice them. > > That's not a strong reason. We sometimes hear it > espoused also as a reason for turning on some shiny > new behavior: so users will notice it. Not a great > reason, on its own. We have NEWS for that (and > Sacha's tangents newsletter and... I'm not sure if the following philosophy is documented anywhere, but my personal impression is that it is considered more Emacs-y to default to disabling most shiny features, lest they come across as annoying or intrusive, and let each user pick and mix what they like. I agree with that, so I sympathise with the annoyance of enabling global-eldoc-mode by default, but in this case I feel like that ship has already sailed, and that global-eldoc-mode is useful enough in the general case that it might be worse to disable it again at this point. -- Basil
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Tue, 04 Jun 2019 08:27:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #44 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at> To: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 10:21:02 +0200
>> I find error messages like "Beginning of buffer" (and the accompanying >> beep) and informative messages like "Mark set" much more annoying. >> What's worse: I see no practical way to turn these off which means >> that I have to decide whether I want to use the mouse-wheel to scroll >> an Emacs buffer or to switch off my loudspeakers. And obviously the >> echo area and the *Messages* buffer get crowded with these completely >> useless (for me) informations. > > Why customizing inhibit-message to t doesn't inhibit these messages? Do you mean to bind that variable around all calls that I find annoying? It would take me days to identify them, write the functions and the bindings ... Anyway. Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the end of a thing called "buffer"? Or that after selecting some text with the mouse you just have "Mark set"? I think that people need strong nerves to survive their first use of Emacs. But maybe that's the idea, only the fittest survive ... martin
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Tue, 04 Jun 2019 13:31:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #47 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> To: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>, Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 16:30:35 +0300
On 04.06.2019 11:21, martin rudalics wrote: > Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if > you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel > to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your > screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the > end of a thing called "buffer"? Or that after selecting some text > with the mouse you just have "Mark set"? It almost feels like the general approach for a long time has been to compensate the general "clunkiness" (or at least peculiarity) of some UI corners with extra verbosity. It's like the program is saying "it's okay if we're doing unusual things, but we'll tell you everything we're doing along the way". I don't find it jarring myself, but we could probably do better.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Wed, 05 Jun 2019 21:08:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #50 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Juri Linkov <juri <at> linkov.net> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov <at> yandex.ru> Cc: martin rudalics <rudalics <at> gmx.at>, 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, npostavs <at> gmail.com, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Thu, 06 Jun 2019 00:06:22 +0300
>> Would you consider an application like Firefox operational if >> you launch it for the first time in your live, spin your mouse-wheel >> to find out whether there's something below the part you see on your >> screen and get a bell ringing and the information that you are at the >> end of a thing called "buffer"? Or that after selecting some text >> with the mouse you just have "Mark set"? > > It almost feels like the general approach for a long time has been to > compensate the general "clunkiness" (or at least peculiarity) of some UI > corners with extra verbosity. > > It's like the program is saying "it's okay if we're doing unusual things, > but we'll tell you everything we're doing along the way". > > I don't find it jarring myself, but we could probably do better. Sometimes such verbosity is justified. For example, when on exiting Isearch displays a reminder "Mark saved where search started".
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sun, 16 Aug 2020 10:17:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #53 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> To: Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700
Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> writes: > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the > buffer. > > Please revert this. This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to disable it for those that really don't like it. I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. Best regards, Stefan Kangas
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:33:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #56 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT)
> Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> writes: > > > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is > > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings > > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the > > buffer. > > > > Please revert this. > > This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used > to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to > disable it for those that really don't like it. > > I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. +1 to DISable it by default, IOW revert to normal, longstanding Emacs behavior. There was no reason to enable it by default. It's easy enough to ENable. Such things should be opt-in. Heck, we still don't even have `delete-selection-mode' on by default. And it took _decades_ to get `transient-mark-mode' on by default. What's so special about this that it was turned on by default? Arguments of "has been the default since 26.1" and "it has seen only few complaints" are pretty shallow. For Emacs, 26.1 is, as Bob said, a recent release. Until a few days ago 26.3 was the _current_ release. Such overeagerness to change default Emacs behavior should really be curbed. Please add my +1 voice to the "few complaints" about this kind of change.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sun, 16 Aug 2020 14:40:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #59 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bob <at> proulx.com Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 17:39:06 +0300
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> > Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700 > Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used > to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to > disable it for those that really don't like it. > > I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. I agree.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Sun, 16 Aug 2020 16:13:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #62 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Kévin Le Gouguec <kevin.legouguec <at> gmail.com> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 18:12:47 +0200
Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes: >> Bob Proulx <bob <at> proulx.com> writes: >> >> > In recent Emacs global-eldoc-mode has been enabled by default. This is >> > a very annoying mode that causes minibuffer hints of elisp doc strings >> > to be flashing by in the minibuffer as the point moves around in the >> > buffer. >> > >> > Please revert this. >> >> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used >> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to >> disable it for those that really don't like it. >> >> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. > > +1 to DISable it by default, IOW revert to normal, > longstanding Emacs behavior. There was no reason to > enable it by default. It's easy enough to ENable. > > Such things should be opt-in. FWIW, I find eldoc's echo-area hints rather useful and, more importantly, innocuous. I don't have a problem with Emacs enabling features by default; it seems fair to me for Emacs to enable unobtrusive features on the off chance that it helps someone, as long as they're easy to disable for users who dislike them (and I can understand disliking the echo-area agitation). IMO Eldoc is no worse than e.g. the menu bar or the tool bar. I don't find those bars worth the space they take, but I'm sure they help plenty of people, and I'll gladly endure the two-line penalty to my config to hide them if showing them by default helps enough users.
bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:bug#35887; Package emacs.
(Thu, 01 Oct 2020 12:28:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Message #65 received at 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, bob <at> proulx.com Subject: Re: bug#35887: 26.1; global-eldoc-mode minibuffer noise is very annoying Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 05:27:06 -0700
tags 35887 wontfix notabug close 35887 thanks Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes: >> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> >> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2020 03:16:03 -0700 >> Cc: 35887 <at> debbugs.gnu.org >> >> This has now been the default since 26.1. Users will have gotten used >> to it, and it has seen only few complaints. It is easy enough to >> disable it for those that really don't like it. >> >> I therefore propose to close this as wontfix. > > I agree. Done.
Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
(Thu, 01 Oct 2020 12:28:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
(Thu, 01 Oct 2020 12:28:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs <at> gnu.org>
to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org.
(Fri, 30 Oct 2020 11:24:14 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.
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