GNU bug report logs - #36313
12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}

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Package: auctex;

Reported by: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2019 16:41:01 UTC

Severity: normal

Tags: notabug

Found in version 12.1.2

Done: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

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Report forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Thu, 20 Jun 2019 16:41:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org. (Thu, 20 Jun 2019 16:41:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-auctex <at> gnu.org
Subject: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 01:28:21 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Some valid URLs contain the percent symbol but the LaTeX mode (I don't
know its official name) treats it as the beginning of a comment and uses
the comment color as a result.

Emacs  : GNU Emacs 26.2 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.2.0, NS
appkit-1671.20 Version 10.14.3 (Build 18D109))
of 2019-04-13
Package: 12.1.2

current state:
==============
(setq
AUCTeX-date "2019-02-08"
window-system 'ns
LaTeX-version "2e"
TeX-style-path '("/usr/local/var/auctex"
 "/Users/furue/.emacs.d/elpa/auctex-12.1.2/style"
 "/Users/furue/.emacs.d/auctex/auto"
 "/Users/furue/.emacs.d/auctex/style" "auto" "style")
TeX-auto-save nil
TeX-parse-self nil
TeX-master t
TeX-command-list '(("LatexMk"
    "latexmk %(-PDF)%S%(mode) %(file-line-error) %(extraopts) %t"
    TeX-run-latexmk nil
    (plain-tex-mode latex-mode doctex-mode) :help
    "Run LatexMk")
   ("TeX"
    "%(PDF)%(tex) %(file-line-error) %`%(extraopts) %S%(PDFout)%(mode)%' %t"
    TeX-run-TeX nil
    (plain-tex-mode ams-tex-mode texinfo-mode) :help
    "Run plain TeX")
   ("LaTeX" "%`%l%(mode)%' %T" TeX-run-TeX nil
    (latex-mode doctex-mode) :help "Run LaTeX")
   ("Makeinfo" "makeinfo %(extraopts) %t" TeX-run-compile nil
    (texinfo-mode) :help "Run Makeinfo with Info output")
   ("Makeinfo HTML" "makeinfo %(extraopts) --html %t"
    TeX-run-compile nil (texinfo-mode) :help
    "Run Makeinfo with HTML output")
   ("AmSTeX" "amstex %(PDFout) %`%(extraopts) %S%(mode)%' %t"
    TeX-run-TeX nil (ams-tex-mode) :help "Run AMSTeX")
   ("ConTeXt"
    "%(cntxcom) --once --texutil %(extraopts) %(execopts)%t"
    TeX-run-TeX nil (context-mode) :help "Run ConTeXt once")
   ("ConTeXt Full" "%(cntxcom) %(extraopts) %(execopts)%t"
    TeX-run-TeX nil (context-mode) :help
    "Run ConTeXt until completion")
   ("BibTeX" "bibtex %s" TeX-run-BibTeX nil t :help
    "Run BibTeX")
   ("Biber" "biber %s" TeX-run-Biber nil t :help "Run Biber")
   ("View" "%V" TeX-run-discard-or-function t t :help
    "Run Viewer")
   ("Print" "%p" TeX-run-command t t :help "Print the file")
   ("Queue" "%q" TeX-run-background nil t :help
    "View the printer queue" :visible TeX-queue-command)
   ("File" "%(o?)dvips %d -o %f " TeX-run-dvips t t :help
    "Generate PostScript file")
   ("Dvips" "%(o?)dvips %d -o %f " TeX-run-dvips nil t :help
    "Convert DVI file to PostScript")
   ("Dvipdfmx" "dvipdfmx %d" TeX-run-dvipdfmx nil t :help
    "Convert DVI file to PDF with dvipdfmx")
   ("Ps2pdf" "ps2pdf %f" TeX-run-ps2pdf nil t :help
    "Convert PostScript file to PDF")
   ("Glossaries" "makeglossaries %s" TeX-run-command nil t
    :help "Run makeglossaries to create glossary file")
   ("Index" "makeindex %s" TeX-run-index nil t :help
    "Run makeindex to create index file")
   ("upMendex" "upmendex %s" TeX-run-index t t :help
    "Run upmendex to create index file")
   ("Xindy" "texindy %s" TeX-run-command nil t :help
    "Run xindy to create index file")
   ("Check" "lacheck %s" TeX-run-compile nil (latex-mode)
    :help "Check LaTeX file for correctness")
   ("ChkTeX" "chktex -v6 %s" TeX-run-compile nil (latex-mode)
    :help "Check LaTeX file for common mistakes")
   ("Spell" "(TeX-ispell-document \"\")" TeX-run-function nil
    t :help "Spell-check the document")
   ("Clean" "TeX-clean" TeX-run-function nil t :help
    "Delete generated intermediate files")
   ("Clean All" "(TeX-clean t)" TeX-run-function nil t :help
    "Delete generated intermediate and output files")
   ("Other" "" TeX-run-command t t :help
    "Run an arbitrary command")
   )
)
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Sun, 23 Jun 2019 19:58:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #8 received at 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2019 21:53:50 +0200
Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Some valid URLs contain the percent symbol but the LaTeX mode (I don't
> know its official name) treats it as the beginning of a comment and uses
> the comment color as a result.
>
> Emacs  : GNU Emacs 26.2 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin18.2.0, NS
> appkit-1671.20 Version 10.14.3 (Build 18D109))
> of 2019-04-13
> Package: 12.1.2
>
> current state:
> ==============
> (setq
> AUCTeX-date "2019-02-08"
> window-system 'ns
> LaTeX-version "2e"
> TeX-style-path '("/usr/local/var/auctex"
>  "/Users/furue/.emacs.d/elpa/auctex-12.1.2/style"
>  "/Users/furue/.emacs.d/auctex/auto"
>  "/Users/furue/.emacs.d/auctex/style" "auto" "style")
> TeX-auto-save nil
> TeX-parse-self nil

Hi Ryo,

AUCTeX can DTRT here if you give her a chance.  Please customize the
variable `TeX-parse-self' to t, restart Emacs and open your .tex file
again.  AUCTeX will then load a support file for hyperref or url (or
both, depending on your .tex file) and the fontification will be
correct.

Best, Arash




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Mon, 24 Jun 2019 02:50:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #11 received at 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 11:48:26 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi Arash,

On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 4:57 AM Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org> wrote:

>
> AUCTeX can DTRT here if you give her a chance.  Please customize the
> variable `TeX-parse-self' to t, restart Emacs and open your .tex file
> again.  AUCTeX will then load a support file for hyperref or url (or
> both, depending on your .tex file) and the fontification will be
> correct.
>

Wow, that works like magic!  Thanks for your help.

Having said that, may I ask why that's not set by default?  I googled but
found no metion to TeX-parse-self to parse special characters within URLs.

(Well, if this discussion is searchable by Google, then it will be the
webpage I wanted :-)

Regards,
Ryo
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Thu, 27 Jun 2019 09:28:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #14 received at 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:26:57 +0900
Hi Ryo,

>>>>> Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:
> Having said that, may I ask why that's not set by default?

There are still firm objections against enabling `TeX-parse-self' by
default.  You can read discussion about this, e.g., at the thread
beginning with
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/auctex-devel/2017-02/msg00000.html
.

Regards,
Ikumi Keita




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:11:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #17 received at 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, 36313 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 20:09:39 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi Keita,

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 6:26 PM Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp> wrote:

>
> >>>>> Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > Having said that, may I ask why that's not set by default?
>
> There are still firm objections against enabling `TeX-parse-self' by
> default.  You can read discussion about this, e.g., at the thread
> beginning with
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/auctex-devel/2017-02/msg00000.html


Thank you very much for this helpful information!  Now I understand that
the reason for the objection is that if the variable is set to t,

AUCTeX [would] rifle through whole remote directory hierarchies in the
search for style files.  [This is a quote from David Kastrup.]


What I don't understand is how this is related to the percent symbol in
URLs !

Also, I didn't notice any slow down even after setting the variable to t.
(I actually expected it, because "parse" sounds a time consuming operation.)

Following his advice, I looked at the top of the AUCtex manual and found:

If you want to make AUCTEX aware of style files and multi-file documents
right away, insert the following in your .emacs file.
. . . .
(setq TeX-parse-self t)
. . . .


I still don't see how this is related to URLs . . .

I'm not complaining.  Not at all.  It just shows how hard it is to find
the  information I wanted.

So, even though Arash says

but it seems to me that users start asking google instead of reading the
first 5 paragraphs of the manual

in the thread above, you shouldn't blame the users (like me) :-)

Cheers,
Ryo
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Reply sent to Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>:
You have taken responsibility. (Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:33:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Notification sent to Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>:
bug acknowledged by developer. (Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:33:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #22 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>, 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 21:31:31 +0200
tags 36313 = notabug
quit

Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Following his advice, I looked at the top of the AUCtex manual and found:
>
> If you want to make AUCTEX aware of style files and multi-file documents
> right away, insert the following in your .emacs file.
> . . . .
> (setq TeX-parse-self t)
> . . . .
>
> I still don't see how this is related to URLs . . .
>
> I'm not complaining.  Not at all.  It just shows how hard it is to find
> the  information I wanted.

Does this sentence makes more sense:

    If you want to make AUCTeX aware of used LaTeX package in a document
    and multi-file documents right away, insert the following in your
    .emacs file.

If so, we should clarify it.

> So, even though Arash says
>
> but it seems to me that users start asking google instead of reading the
> first 5 paragraphs of the manual
>
> in the thread above, you shouldn't blame the users (like me) :-)

Rest assured that it was not about blaming the users, it is just an
observation that many users ignore the manual right away as they presume
it is obsolete, not complete, ...  I'm not complaining either :-)

Best, Arash




Added tag(s) notabug. Request was from Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Thu, 27 Jun 2019 19:40:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:28:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #27 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>, 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 12:26:47 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi Arash,

Thank you for your kind comments!

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:32 AM Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> Does this sentence makes more sense:
>
>     If you want to make AUCTeX aware of used LaTeX package in a document
>     and multi-file documents right away, insert the following in your
>     .emacs file.
>
> If so, we should clarify it.
>

I've found your rewrite somewhat more informative than the original.

Thinking more about this issue, I would argue that TeX-parse-self should be
set to t by default, because

Do the right thing (DTRT) by default
and optimize, if it's slow.


Although I'm not at all professional, I do write little software as part of
my job, and the above is what I always do.  (Perhaps it would be hard to
scan the LaTeX directory tree once for index search?)

Just my two cents.

Cheers,
Ryo
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:17:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #30 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:15:56 +0200
Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Hi Arash,
>
> Thank you for your kind comments!
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:32 AM Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> Does this sentence makes more sense:
>>
>>     If you want to make AUCTeX aware of used LaTeX package in a document
>>     and multi-file documents right away, insert the following in your
>>     .emacs file.
>>
>> If so, we should clarify it.
>>
>
> I've found your rewrite somewhat more informative than the original.
>
> Thinking more about this issue, I would argue that TeX-parse-self should be
> set to t by default, because
>
> Do the right thing (DTRT) by default
> and optimize, if it's slow.

Have you bothered reading the referenced discussions?  You don't appear
to bother bringing anything new to it.

Parsing a whole bunch of dependencies isn't the right default for
someone not interested in AUCTeX or TeX.

But we should probably make it a much stronger point in the manual that
people interested enough in AUCTeX to be reading the manual are very
likely people wanting to enable full document parsing.

> Although I'm not at all professional, I do write little software as
> part of my job, and the above is what I always do.

Emacs is not just AUCTeX.  Emacs is a general-purpose environment, and
the defaults must not make it unusable as the go-to document
editor/viewer for text file types you don't actually know anything
about.

> (Perhaps it would be hard to scan the LaTeX directory tree once for
> index search?)

> Just my two cents.

Have you bothered looking at the dozens of dollars already spent on that
issue?  It is not a new discussion.  If you want to change the outcome,
you need to bring a substantially new argument.

-- 
David Kastrup




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:37:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #33 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 17:36:02 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Dear David and others,

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:16 PM David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org> wrote:

>
> > Thinking more about this issue, I would argue that TeX-parse-self should
> be
> > set to t by default, because
> >
> > Do the right thing (DTRT) by default
> > and optimize, if it's slow.
>
> Have you bothered reading the referenced discussions?


Yes I have read it through.


>   You don't appear
> to bother bringing anything new to it.
>
> Parsing a whole bunch of dependencies isn't the right default for
> someone not interested in AUCTeX or TeX.
>

I didn't know that AUCTeX is switched on by default for everybody using
emacs.  I (wrongly) assumed that AUCTeX was switched on only when you
enable it in your init.el  .

Since AUCTeX is enabled by default for everybody and if the parsing would
occur to everybody if the variable is set, your argument is strong.

Regards,
Ryo
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:05:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #36 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:04:24 +0200
Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Dear David and others,
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 4:16 PM David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> > Thinking more about this issue, I would argue that TeX-parse-self should
>> be
>> > set to t by default, because
>> >
>> > Do the right thing (DTRT) by default
>> > and optimize, if it's slow.
>>
>> Have you bothered reading the referenced discussions?
>
>
> Yes I have read it through.
>
>
>>   You don't appear
>> to bother bringing anything new to it.
>>
>> Parsing a whole bunch of dependencies isn't the right default for
>> someone not interested in AUCTeX or TeX.
>>
>
> I didn't know that AUCTeX is switched on by default for everybody using
> emacs.  I (wrongly) assumed that AUCTeX was switched on only when you
> enable it in your init.el  .

AUCTeX is supposed to be usable as a system default.  It is not
delivered as Emacs' built-in TeX mode, but using ELPA for installing it
will enable it if I remember correctly, and its pre-ELPA mode for
installation is also supposed to be useable in that manner.

> Since AUCTeX is enabled by default for everybody and if the parsing
> would occur to everybody if the variable is set, your argument is
> strong.

If you use ELPA for installing it, it is enabled by default.  If we
would aim for AUCTeX only being used as a consequence of deliberate user
action rather than system administration activity, the defaults would
likely be different.

-- 
David Kastrup




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 09:41:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #39 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: jfbu <jfbu <at> free.fr>
To: bug-auctex <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:40:10 +0200
Hi,

Only for testimony regarding this :

Le 27/06/2019 à 13:09, Ryo Furue a écrit :
> Thank you very much for this helpful information!  Now I understand that
> the reason for the objection is that if the variable is set to t,
> 
> AUCTeX [would] rifle through whole remote directory hierarchies in the
> search for style files.  [This is a quote from David Kastrup.]

Turns out that for a number of years my office set-up had
a somewhat esoteric way to mount a remote volume which is
only location where I had the rights to install the 5G+
TeXLive releases.

I can confirm that the parsing by AUCTeX of document style
files, starting with \documentclass was excruciatingly slow
on this system (not AUCTeX fault I presume, simply the weird
mount system imposed upon us by the sysadmins.).

Basically for a period of 10 years I was very cautious
to type in full \documentclass{article} etc... and
not rely on C-cC-e with 'document' which would result in a
scan of possible classes, bringing Emacs to a halt in
user interaction and possibility to modify the buffer
for a very long time

For those who care, the situation got fixed recently by
the sysadmins adopting another mount system. (they killed
my access to Maple doing this, but that is another story).

I know this is anecdotical, although not quite off-topic
I hope.

Best,

Jean-François






Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 11:48:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #42 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 20:46:29 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Dear David and others,

On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 6:04 PM David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org> wrote:

> If you use ELPA for installing it, it is enabled by default.  If we
> would aim for AUCTeX only being used as a consequence of deliberate user
> action rather than system administration activity, the defaults would
> likely be different.
>

First, I apologize in advance, if I misunderstand what you are saying. So,
please bear with me if I do misunderstand it.

From your argument in your previous message, I thought that

 (1) the parsing of the TeX installation tree would happen to all
 emacs users if the variable is set by default.


But according to this latest of yours, it seems that

(2) the parsing of the TeX installation tree would happen
to those users who explicitly install AUCTeX through ELPA.


(The installation of AUCTeX wouldn't happen unless you explicitly do so. Is
that correct?)

Situations (1) and (2) are very different.  Those users who explicitly
install AUCTeX are those who want the variable to be set, I would think.

If the situation is (1), then your argument is strong, as I said.  If the
situation is (2), I don't understand why you are concerned about emacs
users who don't use AUCTeX.

Perhaps I'm missing something.

Regards,
Ryo
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Fri, 28 Jun 2019 13:39:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #45 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#36313: 12.1.2; percent symbol in \url{}
Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 15:38:13 +0200
Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Dear David and others,
>
> On Fri, Jun 28, 2019 at 6:04 PM David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org> wrote:
>
>> If you use ELPA for installing it, it is enabled by default.  If we
>> would aim for AUCTeX only being used as a consequence of deliberate user
>> action rather than system administration activity, the defaults would
>> likely be different.
>>
>
> First, I apologize in advance, if I misunderstand what you are saying. So,
> please bear with me if I do misunderstand it.
>
>>From your argument in your previous message, I thought that
>
>  (1) the parsing of the TeX installation tree would happen to all
>  emacs users if the variable is set by default.
>
>
> But according to this latest of yours, it seems that
>
> (2) the parsing of the TeX installation tree would happen
> to those users who explicitly install AUCTeX through ELPA.

Or to users subjected to an installation installing AUCTeX in any manner
through ELPA.

> (The installation of AUCTeX wouldn't happen unless you explicitly do
> so. Is that correct?)

Who is "you"?  You are assuming that maintainer and user of an Emacs
binary are identical.  That is not necessarily the case.

-- 
David Kastrup




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Sat, 29 Jun 2019 15:37:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #48 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>,
 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Two installation schemes of AUCTeX (was bug#36313: 12.1.2;
 percent symbol in \url{})
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 00:36:45 +0900
>>>>> Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:
> First, I apologize in advance, if I misunderstand what you are saying. So,
> please bear with me if I do misunderstand it.

Supplementary explanation follows.

AUCTeX has two schemes of installation.  (I'm sorry if you already know
this matter.)

[A] Traditional scheme using configure, make, make install
In this way, system administrator can perform system-wide installation.
All the users on that machine share the common default settings,
including `TeX-parse-self'.
On the other hand, individual normal user can perform personal
installation with this scheme, by giving suitable options to configure
script.  The default value of `TeX-parse-self' only affects that
particular user.

[B] Modern scheme, namely ELPA
This scheme always makes personal installation.  Although this is not
exactly the same as the personal installation of [A], only the
particular user who executed installation from ELPA is concerned about
the default value of `TeX-parse-self'.

> From your argument in your previous message, I thought that

>  (1) the parsing of the TeX installation tree would happen to all
>  emacs users if the variable is set by default.

This story refers to the system-wide installation of the above [A].

> But according to this latest of yours, it seems that

> (2) the parsing of the TeX installation tree would happen
> to those users who explicitly install AUCTeX through ELPA.

This is [B].

I hope this information be of help to clarify your thought.

Cheers,
Ikumi Keita




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Sat, 29 Jun 2019 17:09:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #51 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>,
 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Two installation schemes of AUCTeX (was bug#36313: 12.1.2;
 percent symbol in \url{})
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 02:07:56 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi Keita,

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 12:36 AM Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp> wrote:

> Supplementary explanation follows.
>

Thank you for the kind, detailed explanation!


> AUCTeX has two schemes of installation.
> [A] Traditional scheme using configure, make, make install
> In this way, system administrator can perform system-wide installation.
>

I see!  That means that if the system administrator elects to enable
AUCTeX, all the users on that system are affected by TeX-parse-self, even
if they don't use AUCTeX at all.  I guess that on such a system, the
parsing of the TeX directory tree happens each time emacs is launched if
the system-wide default of TeX-parse-self is t.  Is that correct?

I thought that AUCTeX was always an add-on enabled or installed by each
user.  That was my misunderstanding.

[B] Modern scheme, namely ELPA
>

That suggests that system-wide emacs installations with AUCTeX enabled will
eventually die down.  It seems to me that today, most Linux and Mac
administrators use binary packages of emacs for which add-ons aren't
enabled.  There are cases where you want to compile emacs from source, but
even then, there is little motivation for the administrators to compile
emacs with AUCTeX enabled because each user can install AUCTeX with ELPA.
[Actually, I sometimes compile emacs from source (through homebrew) and
install it system-wide, but it has never occurred to me to enable addons.]

That would be a happier world because we don't have to worry about emacs
users who don't use AUCTeX.

Thank you again.

Cheers,
Ryo
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Sun, 30 Jun 2019 10:27:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #54 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>,
 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Two installation schemes of AUCTeX
Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:26:03 +0900
>>>>> Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:
> I guess that on such a system, the parsing of the TeX directory tree
> happens each time emacs is launched if the system-wide default of
> TeX-parse-self is t.  Is that correct?

Speaking precisely, that statement is not correct.  The "directory tree"
discussed here is not the TeX directory tree, but the elisp directory
tree which potentially contains helper elisp files ("style files", in
the terminology of AUCTeX.)
In addition, the parsing of the elisp directory tree happens when the
user _opens_ a TeX file.  Just launching emacs makes no difference, even
if the default value of `TeX-parse-self' is t.

(The parsing of TeX directory does occur as well, but that is
independent of the value of `TeX-parse-self'.)

Regards,
Ikumi Keita




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Mon, 01 Jul 2019 03:16:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #57 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
To: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>,
 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Two installation schemes of AUCTeX
Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2019 12:14:49 +0900
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hi, again,

Thank you again for your detailed explanation!

On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 7:26 PM Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp> wrote:

> >>>>> Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:
> > I guess that on such a system, the parsing of the TeX directory tree
> > happens each time emacs is launched if the system-wide default of
> > TeX-parse-self is t.  Is that correct?
>
> Speaking precisely, that statement is not correct.  The "directory tree"
> discussed here is not the TeX directory tree, but the elisp directory
> tree which potentially contains helper elisp files ("style files", in
> the terminology of AUCTeX.)
> In addition, the parsing of the elisp directory tree happens when the
> user _opens_ a TeX file.  Just launching emacs makes no difference, even
> if the default value of `TeX-parse-self' is t.
>
> (The parsing of TeX directory does occur as well, but that is
> independent of the value of `TeX-parse-self'.)
>

I'm utterly confused!  I thought the starting point of our discussion was

If the default value of `TeX-parse-self' is t, some emacs users who don't
use AUCTeX will suffer from extra slow down due to the parsing of some
directory tree.


Is the above statement correct or not?

Assuming that it is correct, I guess the reason for the objection to the
default value of TeX-parse-self is


   1. If the system administrator elects to install emacs with AUCTeX
   enabled, and
   2. if the default value of `TeX-parse-self' is t,
   3. all emacs users will experience slow down when emacs is launched
   because of the parsing of some elisp files which wouldn't be parsed if
   TeX-parse-self weren't set.


So, I guess those elisp files in item 3 above are big ones.

Cheers,
Ryo
[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Mon, 01 Jul 2019 12:19:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #60 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
To: Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>,
 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Two installation schemes of AUCTeX
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 21:17:56 +0900
>>>>> Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:
> I'm utterly confused!  I thought the starting point of our discussion was

> If the default value of `TeX-parse-self' is t, some emacs users who don't
> use AUCTeX will suffer from extra slow down due to the parsing of some
> directory tree.

> Is the above statement correct or not?

Actually, I'm not quite sure what David worries about in the quoted
statement.

Although I can enumerate some cases as quoted below that non-nil
`TeX-parse-self' harms the users, they are more or less exceptional
cases, in my opinion.  But I might be missing some critial cases.

1. The user who doesn't use AUCTeX opens a big TeX file inadvertently.
2. The machine is equipped with very limited amount of memory for some
reason.
   - fairly old real machine
   - virtual machine assigned small virtual memory
   - tablet with Android or iOS
3. The user is a beginner of (La)TeX and has just begun to use AUCTeX.
In this case, the user may get irritated if the parsing of the opened
file (and the parsing of the elisp directory tree in search of the style
files) takes up some time every time the document is opened, and choose
to switch from AUCTeX to built-in TeX mode of emacs before knowing well
the advantages the parsing provides.

> Assuming that it is correct, I guess the reason for the objection to the
> default value of TeX-parse-self is

>    1. If the system administrator elects to install emacs with AUCTeX
>    enabled, and
>    2. if the default value of `TeX-parse-self' is t,
>    3. all emacs users will experience slow down when emacs is launched
>    because of the parsing of some elisp files which wouldn't be parsed if
>    TeX-parse-self weren't set.

> So, I guess those elisp files in item 3 above are big ones.

As far as I know, the item 3 is not the case.  As I wrote, just
launching emacs without opening TeX files makes no difference due the
value of `TeX-parse-self', if I'm not missing something important.

(The elisp files loaded when `TeX-parse-self' is t are not so big in
general, but the number of them can be large instead, e.g., when the
opened LaTeX file uses quite many \usepackage's.)

Regards,
Ikumi Keita




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Mon, 01 Jul 2019 21:23:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #63 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>
To: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>,
 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Two installation schemes of AUCTeX
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 22:45:05 +0200
Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp> writes:

>>>>>> Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com> writes:
>> I'm utterly confused!  I thought the starting point of our discussion was
>
>> If the default value of `TeX-parse-self' is t, some emacs users who don't
>> use AUCTeX will suffer from extra slow down due to the parsing of some
>> directory tree.
>
>> Is the above statement correct or not?
>
> Actually, I'm not quite sure what David worries about in the quoted
> statement.
>
> Although I can enumerate some cases as quoted below that non-nil
> `TeX-parse-self' harms the users, they are more or less exceptional
> cases, in my opinion.  But I might be missing some critial cases.
>
> 1. The user who doesn't use AUCTeX opens a big TeX file inadvertently.

Try opening a TeX file via Tramp on a non-local connection.

>> So, I guess those elisp files in item 3 above are big ones.
>
> As far as I know, the item 3 is not the case.  As I wrote, just
> launching emacs without opening TeX files makes no difference due the
> value of `TeX-parse-self', if I'm not missing something important.

The "resident" portion of AUCTeX setting up the autoloads is pretty
small.

> (The elisp files loaded when `TeX-parse-self' is t are not so big in
> general, but the number of them can be large instead, e.g., when the
> opened LaTeX file uses quite many \usepackage's.)

AUCTeX searches around a whole lot for finding associated autoparsed
files in relation to files it loads.

-- 
David Kastrup




Information forwarded to bug-auctex <at> gnu.org:
bug#36313; Package auctex. (Tue, 02 Jul 2019 14:44:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #66 received at 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp>
To: David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Arash Esbati <arash <at> gnu.org>, Ryo Furue <ryofurue <at> gmail.com>,
 36313-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: Two installation schemes of AUCTeX
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 23:42:25 +0900
>>>>> David Kastrup <dak <at> gnu.org> writes:
> Ikumi Keita <ikumi <at> ikumi.que.jp> writes:
>> Actually, I'm not quite sure what David worries about in the quoted
>> statement.

> Try opening a TeX file via Tramp on a non-local connection.

Thanks, I see.  It took long time to finish loading style files if
`TeX-parse-self' is t.  I understand similar slow down would occur also
for files over network such as NFS, samba and so on.

Bye,
Ikumi Keita




bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs <at> gnu.org> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Wed, 31 Jul 2019 11:24:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

This bug report was last modified 4 years and 242 days ago.

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