Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 18:44:57 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 14:44:57 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37102 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCTKT-0000Ag-EA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 14:44:57 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:44372) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCTKR-0000AP-ND for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 14:44:55 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55449) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCTKM-0006TJ-FX; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 14:44:50 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3566 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCTKL-0005XY-M8; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 14:44:50 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 21:44:38 +0300 Message-Id: <835zliq2cp.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <87v9tiyjwo.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:58:15 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> <83a7avorj2.fsf@HIDDEN> <871rw6zzlm.fsf@HIDDEN> <837e5yq4vg.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v9tiyjwo.fsf@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:58:15 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > Key description and fast typing are two separate issues. Mnemonics is > > yet another, third, issue (and assigning mnemonic value to 'm' in C-m > > is generally unusual, IME). I don't think these additional issues > > should affect how we display C-m/RET _everywhere_ in our docs. E.g., > > would you propose to use C-i instead of TAB? > > Hm... I think so? (There's 67 `C-. C-i' in the manual.) And 187 TABs. > Mind you, I'm only talking about multi-key keystrokes if we were to do > this by default. I don't see the difference, and neither does describe-key, AFAIK. > But what I really had in mind was to find out whether anybody had any > smart ideas for how to convey to `describe-bindings' how these keys > should be displayed on a per-keymap basis. I hadn't taken a look at how > keymaps are defined at all... > > But they are really char-table objects wrapped in a list? > > Would it be possible to add an option to `make-keymap' that would pass > along an argument to control what `describe-bindings' should do with the > keymap? And then stash that in the char-table object? I think it's a waste of cycles. We have much more important stuff to spend time on. But that's me.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 17:58:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 13:58:25 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37054 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCSbR-0005HM-7z for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:58:25 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:41808) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCSbP-0005HB-Cj for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:58:23 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCSbH-0001b4-SB; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:58:21 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> <83a7avorj2.fsf@HIDDEN> <871rw6zzlm.fsf@HIDDEN> <837e5yq4vg.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:58:15 +0200 In-Reply-To: <837e5yq4vg.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 23 Sep 2019 20:50:11 +0300") Message-ID: <87v9tiyjwo.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Key description and fast typing are two separate issues. Mnemonics is > yet another, third, issue (and assigning mnemonic value to 'm' in C-m > is generally unusual, IME). I don't think these additi [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Key description and fast typing are two separate issues. Mnemonics is > yet another, third, issue (and assigning mnemonic value to 'm' in C-m > is generally unusual, IME). I don't think these additional issues > should affect how we display C-m/RET _everywhere_ in our docs. E.g., > would you propose to use C-i instead of TAB? Hm... I think so? (There's 67 `C-. C-i' in the manual.) Mind you, I'm only talking about multi-key keystrokes if we were to do this by default. But what I really had in mind was to find out whether anybody had any smart ideas for how to convey to `describe-bindings' how these keys should be displayed on a per-keymap basis. I hadn't taken a look at how keymaps are defined at all... But they are really char-table objects wrapped in a list? Would it be possible to add an option to `make-keymap' that would pass along an argument to control what `describe-bindings' should do with the keymap? And then stash that in the char-table object? -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 17:50:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 13:50:31 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37044 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCSTm-00053r-NY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:50:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:36258) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCSTj-00053a-9c for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:50:29 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54631) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCSTa-0000Bz-NB; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:50:19 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4231 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCSTa-0001G1-5q; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:50:18 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 20:50:11 +0300 Message-Id: <837e5yq4vg.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <871rw6zzlm.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:33:57 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> <83a7avorj2.fsf@HIDDEN> <871rw6zzlm.fsf@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:33:57 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > Anyway, what's the real problem here? Just the fact that you > > personally are annoyed? > > The problem is that these key bindings, as formatted by describe-keys, > aren't what was intended. We don't choose key bindings on a whime. `C-c > C-m' for instance (in Message mode), has the "m" as a mnemonic for > "MIME". `C-c RET' doesn't mean anything. Key description and fast typing are two separate issues. Mnemonics is yet another, third, issue (and assigning mnemonic value to 'm' in C-m is generally unusual, IME). I don't think these additional issues should affect how we display C-m/RET _everywhere_ in our docs. E.g., would you propose to use C-i instead of TAB?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 17:34:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 13:34:03 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37035 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCSDr-0004ab-52 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:34:03 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:41320) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCSDp-0004aB-7U for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:34:01 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCSDl-0001Nk-FA; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:33:59 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> <83a7avorj2.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:33:57 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83a7avorj2.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 23 Sep 2019 20:23:45 +0300") Message-ID: <871rw6zzlm.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Anyway, what's the real problem here? Just the fact that you > personally are annoyed? The problem is that these key bindings, as formatted by describe-keys, aren't what was intended. We don't choose key bindings on a whime. `C-c C-m' for instance (in Message mode), has the "m" as a mne [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > Anyway, what's the real problem here? Just the fact that you > personally are annoyed? The problem is that these key bindings, as formatted by describe-keys, aren't what was intended. We don't choose key bindings on a whime. `C-c C-m' for instance (in Message mode), has the "m" as a mnemonic for "MIME". `C-c RET' doesn't mean anything. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 17:29:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 13:29:27 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37030 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCS9O-0002Ps-Om for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:29:27 -0400 Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:56876) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1iCS9L-0002Pe-VE for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:29:25 -0400 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x8NHIq2g031559; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:29:17 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2019-08-05; bh=My3rz/t7m6POsT/raLfXJsg4fN5uHGi9yY9dMCM6A9c=; b=lPPRvwflj80wB+OBkPHRyRuSH2tRmRezu24fFLck4UolJPlMG23DJOg3nN6wypHxfahH jIilHFA0y9Jiz49BSQtl9b3CDAg2WJI4b6zBuZXW7lW5QszM6Q8KEWIaOFnRaAVPB5yI EVZt7njZDYy3CtY0S6ttOS79pxbxUDRnev6sVQGRGzOl/T8G+Hvlsr5GOiIDrGeCCkZx 9cl0npBcbgHF7GbWQM5Lw86+9qVECFgAz22LL5jaBcSHS//ZuAKtARV1dNzlOlFr0aQ5 TV8gdx2maGGKM5FqX/auYENvv4clxb98tJFf352kSMRQpn0c/+18px0KDwEXHSsvMXPv ew== Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2v5btprgv4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:29:17 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id x8NHHrdF063440; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:29:17 GMT Received: from userv0122.oracle.com (userv0122.oracle.com [156.151.31.75]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2v6yvn9y7c-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:29:17 +0000 Received: from abhmp0020.oracle.com (abhmp0020.oracle.com [141.146.116.26]) by userv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id x8NHTFxk022681; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 17:29:16 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <60aa8a60-237e-49b6-8807-9d5ca37a381f@default> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 10:29:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4888.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9389 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1909230156 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9389 signatures=668685 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1908290000 definitions=main-1909230156 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > But do you use RET instead of `C-m' in these keystrokes because that's > what `describe-bindings' say or because you prefer to hit `RET'? >=20 > Anyway, I've grepped through the *.texi files, and there are 152 matches > for `C-c C-m ...' and 8 for `C-c RET'. And all of those 8 are for RET > as the final character in the keystroke. >=20 > If you expand to "C-. C-m"/"C-. RET" it's 170/20. (All those additional > ones are from mule.texi.) >=20 > It seems the mode writers' intentions are pretty clear: They mean for > the users to type C-c C-m ..., but `describe-bindings' tells them to type > C-c RET. My 2c: If we show only C-m then users might not realize that they can use RET. If we show only RET then users might not realize they can use C-m. That's the way it goes. In the _doc_ (e.g. *.texi) we can always remind users that the two are equivalent (but not always equivalent to <return>). In particular, we can do that for a key binding that uses it after another C- key (e.g. after C-c). But in C-m, C-b, etc., we should provide the same key-description format, systematically. It would be confusing to sometimes use C-m and sometimes RET in such contexts. That could give users the false idea that the two are different. Emacs has always used RET in this case (key listings). And in most cases the key is not used as a prefix key, and it does not follow a C- key. And most users (I think) will recognize and use RET for such cases, even if they use C-m after a C- key or as a prefix key. So I'd vote for keeping RET in such lists of key descriptions. But I'd agree that it can help to point out, in doc, that you can use C-m as an alternative. Pointing that out is especially useful in a context where the key follows a C- key, and possibly even where it does not but it is used as a prefix key. So "the mode writers" you mention aren't necessarily wrong. But it would be wrong to change key listings, which are not specific to a given mode, to use C-m. You might say that `C-h m' is all about documenting the _mode_, so its output should reflect what "the mode writers" use. If that's the point then the mode description (doc string) can simply add a sentence reminding users that C-M =3D RET. Such a case is not a good reason not to keep key listings consistent.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 17:24:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 13:24:00 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37023 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCS48-0002Hd-35 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:24:00 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:32803) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCS46-0002HL-MQ for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:23:58 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54170) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCS41-0002Vy-HE; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:23:53 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2540 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCS40-0007iK-QU; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:23:53 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 20:23:45 +0300 Message-Id: <83a7avorj2.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:07:44 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:07:44 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > >> I'm not sure I understand... > > > > I meant that users usually press RET, not C-m. > > You've done a poll? :-) I don't need one. Most users don't know C-m and RET are the same. > >> Both RET and C-m are keys we press, but the intended (both mnemonic and > >> ergonomic) key stroke here is `C-c C-m c' (etc) and not the awkward `C-c > >> RET c'. > > > > Call me awkward, then. > > But do you use RET instead of `C-m' in these keystrokes because that's > what `describe-bindings' say or because you prefer to hit `RET'? What's the difference? Both, I guess. > Anyway, I've grepped through the *.texi files, and there are 152 matches > for `C-c C-m ...' and 8 for `C-c RET'. And all of those 8 are for RET > as the final character in the keystroke. > > If you expand to "C-. C-m"/"C-. RET" it's 170/20. (All those additional > ones are from mule.texi.) > > It seems the mode writers' intentions are pretty clear: They mean for > the users to type C-c C-m ..., but `describe-bindings' tells them to type > C-c RET. I don't see why this should be decided by majority vote. Anyway, what's the real problem here? Just the fact that you personally are annoyed?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 17:07:51 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 13:07:51 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36997 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCRoU-0008Fz-NR for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:07:51 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:40824) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCRoS-0008Fq-GA for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 13:07:48 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCRoO-00016z-V1; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:07:47 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:07:44 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:14:29 +0300") Message-ID: <87ftknym8v.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> I'm not sure I understand... > > I meant that users usually press RET, not C-m. You've done a poll? :-) Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> I'm not sure I understand... > > I meant that users usually press RET, not C-m. You've done a poll? :-) >> Both RET and C-m are keys we press, but the intended (both mnemonic and >> ergonomic) key stroke here is `C-c C-m c' (etc) and not the awkward `C-c >> RET c'. > > Call me awkward, then. But do you use RET instead of `C-m' in these keystrokes because that's what `describe-bindings' say or because you prefer to hit `RET'? Anyway, I've grepped through the *.texi files, and there are 152 matches for `C-c C-m ...' and 8 for `C-c RET'. And all of those 8 are for RET as the final character in the keystroke. If you expand to "C-. C-m"/"C-. RET" it's 170/20. (All those additional ones are from mule.texi.) It seems the mode writers' intentions are pretty clear: They mean for the users to type C-c C-m ..., but `describe-bindings' tells them to type C-c RET. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 16:14:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 12:14:42 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36867 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCQz4-0000Sc-6n for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:14:42 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:49404) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCQz2-0000SP-Qc for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:14:41 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:53062) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCQyx-0004oz-LF; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:14:35 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2244 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCQyw-0007yL-Vy; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:14:35 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 19:14:29 +0300 Message-Id: <83h853ouqi.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:38:11 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:38:11 +0200 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > >> C-c RET b mml-attach-buffer > >> C-c RET c Prefix Command > >> > >> I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, but I also think that > >> when this key is used as a prefix key, I don't think anybody has ever > >> wanted that to be RET instead of `C-m'. > > > > It's a key you press, so I think it's a Good Thing that we use RET > > here. > > I'm not sure I understand... I meant that users usually press RET, not C-m. > Both RET and C-m are keys we press, but the intended (both mnemonic and > ergonomic) key stroke here is `C-c C-m c' (etc) and not the awkward `C-c > RET c'. Call me awkward, then.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 13:45:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 09:45:28 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35352 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCOee-00054h-7B for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:45:28 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:36560) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCOec-00054Z-4K for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 09:45:26 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCOeY-0007XQ-87; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 15:45:24 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> <mvmpnjrmcme.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 15:45:21 +0200 In-Reply-To: <mvmpnjrmcme.fsf@HIDDEN> (Andreas Schwab's message of "Mon, 23 Sep 2019 14:16:25 +0200") Message-ID: <874l1386tq.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: >>>> I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> writes: >>>> I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, [...] > C-m and RET are one and the same. You are probably confusing it with > <return>. No, I know they're the same. *points upwards* -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 12:16:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 08:16:34 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35286 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCNGc-0008H2-5g for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 08:16:34 -0400 Received: from mx2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15]:42628 helo=mx1.suse.de) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <schwab@HIDDEN>) id 1iCNGZ-0008B0-Ur for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 08:16:32 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay2.suse.de (unknown [195.135.220.254]) by mx1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2027BAF43; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:16:26 +0000 (UTC) From: Andreas Schwab <schwab@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Yow: Yow! I forgot my PAIL!! Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 14:16:25 +0200 In-Reply-To: <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> (Lars Ingebrigtsen's message of "Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:38:11 +0200") Message-ID: <mvmpnjrmcme.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) On Sep 23 2019, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> wrote: > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > >>> C-c RET b mml-attach-buffer >>> C-c RET c Prefix Command >>> >>> I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, but I also think that >>> when this key is used as a prefix key, I don't think anybody has ever >>> wanted that to be RET instead of `C-m'. >> >> It's a key you press, so I think it's a Good Thing that we use RET >> here. > > I'm not sure I understand... > > Both RET and C-m are keys we press, but the intended (both mnemonic and > ergonomic) key stroke here is `C-c C-m c' (etc) and not the awkward `C-c > RET c'. C-m and RET are one and the same. You are probably confusing it with <return>. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@HIDDEN GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE 1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7 "And now for something completely different."
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 10:38:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Sep 23 06:38:18 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35166 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCLjW-0004Us-Kp for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 06:38:18 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:60982) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCLjU-0004Uj-C7 for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 06:38:16 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iCLjQ-0005HG-80; Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:38:14 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 12:38:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Mon, 23 Sep 2019 05:31:38 +0300") Message-ID: <8736gnb8mk.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/27.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> C-c RET b mml-attach-buffer >> C-c RET c Prefix Command >> >> I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, but I also think that >> when this key is used as a prefix key, I don't think anybod [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> C-c RET b mml-attach-buffer >> C-c RET c Prefix Command >> >> I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, but I also think that >> when this key is used as a prefix key, I don't think anybody has ever >> wanted that to be RET instead of `C-m'. > > It's a key you press, so I think it's a Good Thing that we use RET > here. I'm not sure I understand... Both RET and C-m are keys we press, but the intended (both mnemonic and ergonomic) key stroke here is `C-c C-m c' (etc) and not the awkward `C-c RET c'. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 37485) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Sep 2019 02:31:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 22 22:31:34 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34781 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iCE8T-0006Hf-Oi for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 22:31:33 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52577) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCE8S-0006HQ-6X for 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 22:31:32 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:41198) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCE8N-0002nN-1K; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 22:31:27 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=3911 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1iCE8L-0000Lr-TM; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 22:31:26 -0400 Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2019 05:31:38 +0300 Message-Id: <83k19zpwtx.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> In-reply-to: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Lars Ingebrigtsen on Sun, 22 Sep 2019 23:53:23 +0200) Subject: Re: bug#37485: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings References: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 37485 Cc: 37485 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> > Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 23:53:23 +0200 > > > It's long annoyed med that `C-m' is described thusly by > describe-bindings: > > C-c RET Prefix Command > > C-c RET C-c mml-secure-message-encrypt > C-c RET C-e mml-secure-message-sign-encrypt > C-c RET C-n mml-unsecure-message > C-c RET C-p Prefix Command > C-c RET C-s mml-secure-message-sign > C-c RET C Prefix Command > C-c RET P mml-preview > C-c RET S Prefix Command > C-c RET b mml-attach-buffer > C-c RET c Prefix Command > > I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, but I also think that > when this key is used as a prefix key, I don't think anybody has ever > wanted that to be RET instead of `C-m'. It's a key you press, so I think it's a Good Thing that we use RET here.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 22 Sep 2019 21:53:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Sep 22 17:53:31 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34599 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iC9nP-0007jp-2i for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 17:53:31 -0400 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:45866) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iC9nN-0007jg-Ue for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 17:53:30 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:36045) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iC9nM-00088c-Ke for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 17:53:29 -0400 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iC9nL-0001T3-IN for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 17:53:28 -0400 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.231.51]:41680) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iC9nL-0001Sr-BR for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 17:53:27 -0400 Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=marnie) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1iC9nH-0002st-Tc for bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN; Sun, 22 Sep 2019 23:53:26 +0200 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN Subject: 27.0.50; C-m in describe-bindings Date: Sun, 22 Sep 2019 23:53:23 +0200 Message-ID: <87sgooroa4.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 80.91.231.51 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) It's long annoyed med that `C-m' is described thusly by describe-bindings: C-c RET Prefix Command C-c RET C-c mml-secure-message-encrypt C-c RET C-e mml-secure-message-sign-encrypt C-c RET C-n mml-unsecure-message C-c RET C-p Prefix Command C-c RET C-s mml-secure-message-sign C-c RET C Prefix Command C-c RET P mml-preview C-c RET S Prefix Command C-c RET b mml-attach-buffer C-c RET c Prefix Command I know that `C-m' and RET is the same key binding, but I also think that when this key is used as a prefix key, I don't think anybody has ever wanted that to be RET instead of `C-m'. Or is there a way to distinguish what we mean, somehow? In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 17, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.5) of 2019-09-21 built on marnie Repository revision: c61bfe0a3adab1a9fd0dc283cbf8291a78ed6da1 Repository branch: master Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11902000 System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster) -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#37485; Package emacs.
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