Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 21:32:57 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 30 16:32:57 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33541 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1im2en-0001D8-5X for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:32:57 -0500 Received: from mail-qk1-f180.google.com ([209.85.222.180]:39230) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1im2el-0001Cw-IA for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:32:55 -0500 Received: by mail-qk1-f180.google.com with SMTP id c16so27177210qko.6 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:32:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2wpZbKfr2st4dGcLn517s4ltjk3b6s4Epx1KrVEvGEY=; b=maqKlu2ldlb6QXJLTyEQyINrJNukWpzRy69AfhMki/fskDwayoLRG3bR2pQ9O0P5gs HA8+PVPGTAQ0ccvJ9BL3VwU4skypJNGy8B28WgGk0r72n5mnXp+jKVIbadV0SRFlMqSm 06/WVMOdYc3q3TMalmNZu9kUr0GvNGKnFSz8TDW19EF+12UK69n57PPNwgelZUz0SjGW wrtiNufc/mgbR6BKspaSaSeT84TuQg7pTSbMWCMsYxZm4ligwUbu6X4WEzKxatTfKloF 0BS9MRY/rJn/zgmr5sfV5jESNVE9/3Mj1t9cwjeI16GXXmJIM1J9bP7GUgi/Mo8p5mhY OZEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2wpZbKfr2st4dGcLn517s4ltjk3b6s4Epx1KrVEvGEY=; b=PQkE89hxTjbHKRnmMm9xg7Jl2RQwsNOXK4z8cOGJ+ohQSsUIcH5GopY53stRMo8a7i wCmsnKsF1bGS31lHi3/JgH7vSn6D5fYZ8b0css9V9gGpjJsxLRzU1QrOxOxh+eVfMOMq xRgA+A4YI5GykQItabkFOKuIJost+MwIs7HX60/V/zraVT20SyIhTGvWODgrMFqovi38 yslAx9QjDyQ7tPs3uClE9HY0T3VPGevbwvg0x81fm0yjSMPCMCfm6Z8/qqwqguwYd+JG wRVA5blHcml+/R9YBLO9Vebv4NcjrbVSztT2RqGIqsvOIjKy7ao9+P5lYJs83ECfg7Wl pOpA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX7BXardw4vVw7YXGmL6hw0qFLDayvwLUirLIiPhXlq03rSj+j4 hunESCfEhC0ta9D7atCramsg5d3wuCrJx+Drq0NtfQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy78kYseZjH8g8RJvOT7qQmJq+8sohVxAW4HXXpdhT4h/QwXp7sInV/y1rTf02hPa3olj5RJ+PuqMCfjsNIYFQ= X-Received: by 2002:a37:a451:: with SMTP id n78mr51322384qke.304.1577741570015; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:32:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o8w1mxjt.fsf@HIDDEN> <87blrqp2pp.fsf@HIDDEN> <878smu85kw.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3jjB8kRRN3xqv7VWn0ba_Qwm8jDWUUiodXi+NtQwWsLA@HIDDEN> <87tv5h7t0j.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2WVmPprrGw4xnzpRYzBeMXMPVnaTgG00=DicTaRFRMmw@HIDDEN> <87eewlo6yp.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87eewlo6yp.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 22:32:38 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ1+m-6AM=vs=62EE88TeTqm41vZ8KfwYQYo+MWTmxn66w@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>, GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Ricardo, Thank you for your input. On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 22:10, Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> wrote: > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > > What about "guix spawn"? > > =E2=80=9Cspawn=E2=80=9D is a very generic verb, much like =E2=80=9Center= =E2=80=9D (enter what?) or > =E2=80=9Cmake=E2=80=9D. My English is not good enough to see the drawback. :-) Well, my personal flavor is: > to contain (=E2=80=A6the resulting process in a possibly leaky environ= ment) > to join (=E2=80=A6all these packages to form a new whole) > context > union All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 21:10:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 30 16:10:42 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33521 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1im2JG-0000gE-0b for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:10:42 -0500 Received: from sender4-of-o51.zoho.com ([136.143.188.51]:21128) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rekado@HIDDEN>) id 1im2JD-0000g6-Qi for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:10:40 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1577740233; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=WfPsF/Vc0Y7McE0MRONFUTof7IzIvcI78mfB3l0URsAUB36hKMt918pFNxa8CTAPSsPsMJ00b7AFFnuqr9Hdhx3hQs7Sg2ElisbAfN9HV4qmv+9d7FxhpIsOlC9mwDEPcHmPJe8eq/xqg6ghnpDkdGD0rkxBW8+aymoMMChwN5E= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1577740233; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=9H22+tsWU6npXGpwnTGycEnIPg5piIe2kc57gv5GVjw=; b=gwEjMuoqHGONhY8EbuIFkUkbt4SNYYayy1eSur7g4OfsXK5Awm2YJpTcW52gNUQuvkDF5NDNF3Qs7ReXUqAhvcPZN8UuYGVAJ5MNDsu+t0OXUWvjGtZOknRaUg6ZNl7Y7O8r+1sVBNcTfvY5fqWU6Mrqz7ST2NaSMhIeDFJ7HF0= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@HIDDEN; dmarc=pass header.from=<rekado@HIDDEN> header.from=<rekado@HIDDEN> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1577740233; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@HIDDEN; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=9H22+tsWU6npXGpwnTGycEnIPg5piIe2kc57gv5GVjw=; b=eEN/CqewBQ26ZRP98iLNr70AhSYZszFbzPb37P91QLjKNzMni9moNynjH3fXXq+6 DHPzV59vDcpBsNk+Sda0CuwiJFTgJsukO+TyR2D5xfKTNMbtDh10opN728RpwVYZPid +V34xOKzbmIvGux8Y9POG9cPKDbCN8RxRq0wKtfA= Received: from localhost (p54AD4FE0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.173.79.224]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1577740227154662.0833964693969; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:10:27 -0800 (PST) References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o8w1mxjt.fsf@HIDDEN> <87blrqp2pp.fsf@HIDDEN> <878smu85kw.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3jjB8kRRN3xqv7VWn0ba_Qwm8jDWUUiodXi+NtQwWsLA@HIDDEN> <87tv5h7t0j.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2WVmPprrGw4xnzpRYzBeMXMPVnaTgG00=DicTaRFRMmw@HIDDEN> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.3 From: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <CAJ3okZ2WVmPprrGw4xnzpRYzBeMXMPVnaTgG00=DicTaRFRMmw@HIDDEN> X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 22:10:22 +0100 Message-ID: <87eewlo6yp.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>, GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: >> > Why do you say that "guix shell" does not reflect what the command is = about? >> > Because the command spawns a new shell with options (expanding it, >> > isolating it, etc.) >> >> The command does not necessarily spawn a new shell; it spawns a command >> in a well-defined environment, and that command might be a shell. > > What about "guix spawn"? =E2=80=9Cspawn=E2=80=9D is a very generic verb, much like =E2=80=9Center=E2= =80=9D (enter what?) or =E2=80=9Cmake=E2=80=9D. =E2=80=9Cshell=E2=80=9D has the awkward property o= f meaning different things dependent on how you interpret it: =E2=80=9Cto shell=E2=80=9D means to *rem= ove* an outer shell (like that of a nut) whereas =E2=80=9Cguix shell=E2=80=9D as a noun w= ould imply *wrapping=E2=80=9C something in a shell. It sends mixed signals. We=E2=80= =99d probably want people to understand it as =E2=80=98spawn a command line shell=E2=80= =99, but that=E2=80=99s really not the primary purpose of =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99. Thinking about words some more I started to wonder: do we want verbs or nouns? We have some sub-commands that could be interpreted either way: archive gc hash Others that are primarily understood as nouns: container environment graph package processes repl size system time-machine weather And a majority that are primarily understood as verbs: build challenge copy deploy describe download edit import install lint pack publish pull refresh remove search show upgrade If we were looking for verbs that express the idea of creating an environment or to place a thing inside of an environment we could use one of these: to envelop (envelop what though? This seems to require two objects.) to arrange (kinda misses the point) to stage (in the theatric sense) to frame (not in the criminal sense) to contain (=E2=80=A6the resulting process in a possibly leaky environme= nt) to join (=E2=80=A6all these packages to form a new whole) to group (=E2=80=A6all these packages) (As a bonus: =E2=80=98to environ=E2=80=99 exists, but it suffers from the s= ame problem as =E2=80=98to envelop=E2=80=99.) Here are some nouns that might work: scene frame context union All of them are shorter than =E2=80=9Cenvironment=E2=80=9D! :) What do you think? -- Ricardo
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 17:55:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 30 12:55:24 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33342 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ilzGF-0006rr-P1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:55:24 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f44.google.com ([209.85.219.44]:37796) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ilzGE-0006rf-Mr for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:55:23 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f44.google.com with SMTP id f16so12619683qvi.4 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 09:55:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cFVlu4OuZ+pc/sb6z/oHxe7tigX9iHpe3SVC5EBn4nU=; b=dr/hzoGa+nsUOwO5Vq3WwgRtT9nu6ddLGWypHCDYjIgI+LleBcAi8tGqJyUBVmZEzN 036DhxKezoIbTWG7spsmFZhgj/uNjWbOJhM/t7r9BAfSHAihZ6o+RNZcMxoTGUEk/Ntq s8UfJG11UKtRxeEa+4FhJ1VrVOIEe/h6Bn82FPvgxIbSg6zmZc36Uj7p5EGlQ07iK6QX yec86YGDR8qtnvjzPRz0HtMO74eo27mZmfA0WLdrLi2VBzbYo3Y6urjZcjNVfcyHPhRU G1tKXX+da1KzoWLr/bNKk20jEXmFd+7AUcz4NWCN2CCVgxQt7JiRLfofvFWQtNYvnq7K o+DA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cFVlu4OuZ+pc/sb6z/oHxe7tigX9iHpe3SVC5EBn4nU=; b=bowZiNkTSduTe6UTbNJGew4uC5Bn/0i2RSYPhJ2ja7WhwfRFC6Cu0ZOb/vROf6Jfpt Gre2ecOMuX2jWB++Y+xA3XCWJKett0/rfn16/IAQ7PwSKxhOZeUYys74qGVf3hk1skE7 +p2PrBancN8oyf4PTfc6FdB8U2rYDHXm0prTJim9ooDQCwe+39f/7pE/PxX7dqRZwSSf OljBOAfAeeZxF83Af/UbuBCVqajQ99rdkZPg99dM3VRxTK+fMYIrLAnBkjfjD+P31qls Ev8pME8xTVIfTDPkfjoEsqE3cyVS+47+qr97CKs7hBMjeq4WhwnyLDbcTk5Wv2DZraxR pJYg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAULLZnOzN/e2e+2LK4suEHOzfBampLmbRi0R2t3gDj47Gy+ES68 6Cuejhcus3cyPVfW8gfqWZwScOPvVNXSKbp7dwU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxyY72FTDunij+t+kFSUDPv7tgsTtqpzdxHwo9OxZTHb0FRYgdZQivaJ4VNMAupatQW3HwE1H5qVEdXikwwOkw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:108a:: with SMTP id o10mr43227019qvr.246.1577728517178; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 09:55:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o8w1mxjt.fsf@HIDDEN> <87blrqp2pp.fsf@HIDDEN> <878smu85kw.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3jjB8kRRN3xqv7VWn0ba_Qwm8jDWUUiodXi+NtQwWsLA@HIDDEN> <87tv5h7t0j.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87tv5h7t0j.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:55:04 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ2WVmPprrGw4xnzpRYzBeMXMPVnaTgG00=DicTaRFRMmw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hey! On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 16:06, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> wrote: > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> skribis: > > On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 11:35, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> wrote= : > > Is this statement acted? Is it the consensus by all the maintainers? > > All I=E2=80=99m saying is that what EuAndreh wrote above is correct; I=E2= =80=99m not > stating anything as to what solution we should implement. :-) H=C3=A9h=C3=A9, it is an answer to the questions. ;-) > > Why do you say that "guix shell" does not reflect what the command is a= bout? > > Because the command spawns a new shell with options (expanding it, > > isolating it, etc.) > > The command does not necessarily spawn a new shell; it spawns a command > in a well-defined environment, and that command might be a shell. What about "guix spawn"? All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 17:27:37 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 30 12:27:37 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33316 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ilypN-0006BS-5W for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:27:37 -0500 Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:53378) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raingloom@HIDDEN>) id 1ilypL-0006BK-36 for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 12:27:35 -0500 Received: from bell.riseup.net (bell-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.178]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "Sectigo RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (not verified)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47mks228dLzDs7J; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 09:27:34 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1577726854; bh=9mPSHOzgRUnFTCS+zmImFvD2eqVujggYwgL1mQUHOMM=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=qQuHRPqs9zyT+d9mBv06G886cB+RMcBAhEDfhSo+EqPM5JlxjTq/VIcQC39tmsrJJ +gbM4aMA6IFk7ZpFyLH5jW8FeF5rJOYKbfE/EJqIF2Y1hj6vaNkQEGGuCwJVEZySiY bwuelwlF81uIiN8OluVqRDY2O0tEM7uPUEIn19Ds= X-Riseup-User-ID: 10BF4D5527408382E137A1FF81D324FB3AD892B00FC08D5A62A59710F7BC6A41 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bell.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 47mks06DkZzJqrk; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 09:27:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <0eda3cfa6b08d9e58249eac6d41df0c0af33f681.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? From: raingloom <raingloom@HIDDEN> To: Ludovic =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Court=E8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>, "Thompson, David" <dthompson2@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:27:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87o8wgksnp.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAJ=RwfabiMuyx_JXP+KU76kCCRAX0zofN14YJ5wEi-YMwNW_YQ@HIDDEN> <87o8wgksnp.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On Tue, 2019-12-10 at 18:16 +0100, Ludovic Courtès wrote: > As for ‘--ad-hoc’: making it the default is technically easy. The > difficulty is to come up with a nice transition/deprecation mechanism > so > that we don’t break everyone’s script overnight. > > Ideas on how to achieve it are welcome! > > Thanks, > Ludo’. > > Why not make it fully explicit, without either being the default? It would make script more readable too. Then the deprecation is as easy as printing a warning when the invocation relies on the default. For example `guix environment hello` would become `guix environment -- inputs-of hello`. Not using `--inputs-of` would print something like "warning: implicit --inputs-of is deprecated".
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 15:06:19 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 30 10:06:19 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33170 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ilwcd-0002Qu-3O for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:06:19 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:59131) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ilwcY-0002Qd-M3 for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:06:17 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:35306) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ilwcR-0000Sm-RH; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:06:07 -0500 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=44164 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ilwcR-00014Q-2x; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 10:06:07 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o8w1mxjt.fsf@HIDDEN> <87blrqp2pp.fsf@HIDDEN> <878smu85kw.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3jjB8kRRN3xqv7VWn0ba_Qwm8jDWUUiodXi+NtQwWsLA@HIDDEN> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 10 =?utf-8?Q?Niv=C3=B4se?= an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 16:06:04 +0100 In-Reply-To: <CAJ3okZ3jjB8kRRN3xqv7VWn0ba_Qwm8jDWUUiodXi+NtQwWsLA@HIDDEN> (zimoun's message of "Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:03:19 +0100") Message-ID: <87tv5h7t0j.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: EuAndreh <eu@HIDDEN>, GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hello! zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> skribis: > On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 11:35, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> wrote: > >> > Wouldn't having a new name for the new behaviour avoid breakage in this >> > situation? >> >> Yes, that=E2=80=99s correct (that=E2=80=99s also one of the suggestions = Konrad made). > > Is this statement acted? Is it the consensus by all the maintainers? All I=E2=80=99m saying is that what EuAndreh wrote above is correct; I=E2= =80=99m not stating anything as to what solution we should implement. :-) > And I am not clear about what will happens for "guix environment"? > Deprecate for sure. > But after X time: removed or frozen? I guess that=E2=80=99s the whole point of deprecation. > As Arne described the process (bottom of [1]), "guix environment" will > become a kind-of alias of "guix shell/<name-it>". Right? Yes. >> We could take that route. What would we call it, though? I don=E2=80= =99t like >> =E2=80=9Cguix shell=E2=80=9D because it doesn=E2=80=99t quite reflect wh= at the command is >> about. No good idea, though. > > Argh! Naming is hard. > Something that reflects what the command is about: "guix environment"? > (joke!! ;-)) Yeah! > Why do you say that "guix shell" does not reflect what the command is abo= ut? > Because the command spawns a new shell with options (expanding it, > isolating it, etc.) The command does not necessarily spawn a new shell; it spawns a command in a well-defined environment, and that command might be a shell. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 12:03:41 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 30 07:03:41 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60550 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iltlt-0002O3-Cy for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 07:03:41 -0500 Received: from mail-qk1-f196.google.com ([209.85.222.196]:41894) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iltlp-0002Np-JH for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 07:03:40 -0500 Received: by mail-qk1-f196.google.com with SMTP id x129so26082400qke.8 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 04:03:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u+tyL1pWgttGoM/VS80EVPx6pZl7u0Ql630EWGelgyU=; b=M80j5GtWBGh3K4qR4MQtl1+KR/CU7jzNcj6xVetQO6PGKF4W2vIibGzHtdpMU+Dwqk Dg+FhaGwQZv2aEdaV5t0xgW60pMGIlzRn/6uBMffozFvbFfjJf5uCroI+FU4dMNKFd1E RIsE4EIJN+HsC9jDKtKfWLsy2rAT8eD8GnkBxz7mJifpjK3K4x/e3cpeQ1SZ4di2Lmox GDKP6eKu9wsirS4nt/6jDfv6yRE8sbSXvOrG3Z1ff6mY1m0+YGKVuuy7d7ttimMkVdqy utj5zzR0TqtXlQAfFAqM4UNhd4tb65OY7HxX2kNOzewD12b4Tg8GCCluXSJN84G6/hFA CfIg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=u+tyL1pWgttGoM/VS80EVPx6pZl7u0Ql630EWGelgyU=; b=dK3HTjsxN+Siu0g1gCyqEQseVezLUiCbXAxxkAmLCH6d5ykP1zMJFIDFT5SUhHbFCi QAK1L3ruIwisJvl4/QxZjp1zDZ1329eU4RuwpiYlaenwkfiHDvbRfDQaFjIwVJizkrJu 9NH+AkZTd7ePiZ7ob8oETDtVfNl44GQ0dKeuOn39LIcukGc64u/3BNCTPL7OXzCX5TMC O1BlKEJ1SWUC4NfPgaD4jV1nfkWYQhvx7NeOgf8DHzaIjYLSNFyYTJ0LPnPy0e9mhfml pW8yg2I/cD+q0gRP4P0bJITzpkrLuvetzbGSzJYPzsZVj9iWcz+2uXaaTzzMXIrgUf7q qCXA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWmuVj0B+XYZ1G3+pX4IEfROIUnnnHSHMq2CeivwjMHDYEtcHgj Rt79Shsgyx2t+ax4wgeLACtE6hvWq9R5XF0j00k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy4SFJSblwWUtdI97MQXTlmIYxZv6ZqPSZV1Hevxu/XmzpShGpLGKnkDEzaTEs3bipfyPp3pEN46ZvTqXn4cvU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1592:: with SMTP id d18mr53878195qkk.80.1577707412084; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 04:03:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o8w1mxjt.fsf@HIDDEN> <87blrqp2pp.fsf@HIDDEN> <878smu85kw.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <878smu85kw.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:03:19 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ3jjB8kRRN3xqv7VWn0ba_Qwm8jDWUUiodXi+NtQwWsLA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: EuAndreh <eu@HIDDEN>, GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Ludo, On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 at 11:35, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> wrote: > > Wouldn't having a new name for the new behaviour avoid breakage in this > > situation? > > Yes, that=E2=80=99s correct (that=E2=80=99s also one of the suggestions K= onrad made). Is this statement acted? Is it the consensus by all the maintainers? And I am not clear about what will happens for "guix environment"? Deprecate for sure. But after X time: removed or frozen? Removing the command "guix environment" is against the backward compatibility argument because all the current documentation/scripts using it will not work anymore. Other said, if the documentation/scripts cannot be updated as it was said -- in favor for strong backward compatibility -- then the user will be surprised that what worked does not anymore because the command does not exist anymore. Therefore, if Guix goes the backward compatibility route, then the "guix environment" should be frozen until the version 2.0 and so only removed when the 2.0 will be released. Or I misunderstand the arguments in favor of the backward compatibility. As Arne described the process (bottom of [1]), "guix environment" will become a kind-of alias of "guix shell/<name-it>". Right? > We could take that route. What would we call it, though? I don=E2=80=99= t like > =E2=80=9Cguix shell=E2=80=9D because it doesn=E2=80=99t quite reflect wha= t the command is > about. No good idea, though. Argh! Naming is hard. Something that reflects what the command is about: "guix environment"? (joke!! ;-)) Why do you say that "guix shell" does not reflect what the command is about= ? Because the command spawns a new shell with options (expanding it, isolating it, etc.) Well, because we do not seem having good idea for a new name, maybe if we argument why we collectively find that name or this name is bad or good, one of us will find the good name. Currently, "guix shell" seems the better option. All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2019 10:34:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 30 05:34:49 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60516 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ilsNt-0000BI-5o for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 05:34:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:50035) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ilsNr-0000B1-Ms for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 05:34:48 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:33040) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ilsNl-0002yu-Tk; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 05:34:41 -0500 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=43824 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ilsNl-0007vL-Bp; Mon, 30 Dec 2019 05:34:41 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: EuAndreh <eu@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> <87o8w1mxjt.fsf@HIDDEN> <87blrqp2pp.fsf@HIDDEN> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 10 =?utf-8?Q?Niv=C3=B4se?= an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 11:34:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87blrqp2pp.fsf@HIDDEN> (EuAndreh's message of "Mon, 30 Dec 2019 06:44:34 -0300") Message-ID: <878smu85kw.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN>, GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi, EuAndreh <eu@HIDDEN> skribis: > Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Yes, I think it is clear that we=E2=80=99d have to do this using all the= tools >> at our disposal, including time. >> >> Konrad=E2=80=99s objection remains though: existing documents (papers, b= log >> posts, MOOCs, etc.) that mention =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99 woul= d all of a >> sudden become wrong if we were to change the defaults of =E2=80=98guix >> environment=E2=80=99. Even if we introduce a variable to restore the old >> behavior. >> >> Perhaps that=E2=80=99s unavoidable in the long run, but perhaps this is = not the >> right time for this. > > Wouldn't having a new name for the new behaviour avoid breakage in this > situation? Yes, that=E2=80=99s correct (that=E2=80=99s also one of the suggestions Kon= rad made). We could take that route. What would we call it, though? I don=E2=80=99t = like =E2=80=9Cguix shell=E2=80=9D because it doesn=E2=80=99t quite reflect what = the command is about. No good idea, though. Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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From: EuAndreh <eu@HIDDEN>
To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>, Ricardo Wurmus
<rekado@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment
proposed deprecation mechanism
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Content preview: Hello :) Jumping in the discussion xD Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>
writes:
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Hello :)
Jumping in the discussion xD
Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> writes:
> Yes, I think it is clear that we=E2=80=99d have to do this using all the =
tools
> at our disposal, including time.
>
> Konrad=E2=80=99s objection remains though: existing documents (papers, bl=
og
> posts, MOOCs, etc.) that mention =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99 would=
all of a
> sudden become wrong if we were to change the defaults of =E2=80=98guix
> environment=E2=80=99. Even if we introduce a variable to restore the old
> behavior.
>
> Perhaps that=E2=80=99s unavoidable in the long run, but perhaps this is n=
ot the
> right time for this.
Wouldn't having a new name for the new behaviour avoid breakage in this
situation?
Suppose the path of adding new subcommand is chosen, and it is "guix
shell". Couldn't it adopt the new desired behaviour?
guix shell foo --inputs-of bar # new command
guix environment bar --ad-hoc foo # untouched old command
After the introduction of "guix shell", "guix environment" could become
deprecated, but no current usage of it would stop working, and no public
references to it in the internet would become misleading. "guix
environment" could say that is has been deprecated, and point to "guix
shell", but keep working the same way.
If desired, "guix environment" could be removed after X time of
deprecation has passed, but that would be optional.
What are the downsides? Am I missing something?
Thanks,
euandreh.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Dec 2019 09:28:08 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 23 04:28:08 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50565 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ijK0W-0006YW-IJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 04:28:08 -0500 Received: from dd26836.kasserver.com ([85.13.145.193]:58892) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <dannym@HIDDEN>) id 1ijK0T-0006YN-JT for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 04:28:06 -0500 Received: from localhost (unknown [185.17.13.127]) by dd26836.kasserver.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EA5C63365203; Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:28:02 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:28:00 +0100 From: Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@HIDDEN> To: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism Message-ID: <20191223102800.35e12fea@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87woaqpuvz.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3zSS0Rbnu5eLhpYHPvSY1emaj=-estQcjRwiJ3=4RMMA@HIDDEN> <m1fthfz1db.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ32Ozgky=qUtj+QwjNRoX6aTzWKrMXy0M0wZpLAZRi8pg@HIDDEN> <87woaqpuvz.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.17.3 (GTK+ 2.24.32; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/jFdGygFgS9pdt3AOHieG5vz"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) --Sig_/jFdGygFgS9pdt3AOHieG5vz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ricardo, On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 22:08:48 +0100 Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> wrote: > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: >=20 > > - I propose the name "guix shell" =20 >=20 > This is not a bad idea, especially considering that =E2=80=9Cguix environ= ment=E2=80=9D > was meant to get shebang support, so that you could use it as the > interpreter in a script that handles the environment configuration. Note that the Linux kernel shebang interpreter only supports ONE argument. The good news is that whatever number of arguments you pass, it will all be subsumed into the first argument. #!foo bar baz foo gets: $1=3D"bar baz", $#=3D2 --Sig_/jFdGygFgS9pdt3AOHieG5vz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEds7GsXJ0tGXALbPZ5xo1VCwwuqUFAl4AiKAACgkQ5xo1VCww uqV1gQf7Bn7WDu9gn8Y9GfN1sW1dNR3p0wQjGjGHvBeNpaZ+7iWroOz7ObRXGoT4 06YudNnN9kxulLzTc12G657YFMLq7q3BsAUX+sbYQkhYOOI5mau9NeaqaTuuI0yv 0xmorYN8NdTZ+kY5x17X8KZTGvVIw96cZMgxS+IbbxRxLC3xTxvlxMQ9y72K1A55 I4Mrz32lpmJ8GXZMPEMIm0eS14gEqNxktgL81lx2CWs8+oaftMJ6BTNSHHkBVq9i xH49KeEORRVtyBUdQxaNGkH0YYdmPjNMskrsfusBv5KHFJIlSLSH/WaF0tZylgEM WP55Oi+jxyjuLJ2lMFcIFrdSoQYRRA== =mzlL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/jFdGygFgS9pdt3AOHieG5vz--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2019 16:52:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 21 11:52:03 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48715 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iihz1-00052S-6s for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 11:52:03 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:34914) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1iihyz-00051z-FV for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 11:52:01 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:59925) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1iihys-0000Y6-5w; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 11:51:54 -0500 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=60904 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1iihyr-0005VC-6A; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 11:51:53 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 1 =?utf-8?Q?Niv=C3=B4se?= an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 17:51:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> (Ricardo Wurmus's message of "Fri, 20 Dec 2019 22:31:40 +0100") Message-ID: <87o8w1mxjt.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN>, GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi! Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> skribis: > I=E2=80=99m just chiming in here to say that feelings of frustration are = very > valid reasons to make or object to a change. Guix is or can be a very > important piece of software =E2=80=94 if it remains reliable in the toolb= ox of > those using it. > > It is difficult striking the right balance between exciting new features > that make things possible that were previously unattainable and > dependability through stable interfaces. > > The Guix command line is by far the most commonly used interface. We > can=E2=80=99t just claim that the Scheme API is stable (which it actually= isn=E2=80=99t) > and change the user-facing CLI as we please. Agreed. > Personally, I think that it is fine to introduce breaking changes, but > that for changes that are likely to have a high potential for annoyance > and frustration there ought to be a documented way to work around them. > Breaking changes must be communicated through version number bumps and > accompanying announcements. Yes, I think it is clear that we=E2=80=99d have to do this using all the to= ols at our disposal, including time. Konrad=E2=80=99s objection remains though: existing documents (papers, blog posts, MOOCs, etc.) that mention =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99 would a= ll of a sudden become wrong if we were to change the defaults of =E2=80=98guix environment=E2=80=99. Even if we introduce a variable to restore the old behavior. Perhaps that=E2=80=99s unavoidable in the long run, but perhaps this is not= the right time for this. > While I don=E2=80=99t see how we can make it happen, I do find the idea o= f a > stable API whose version can be selected with an environment variable > intriguing and worth thinking about. If our Scheme API is as flexible > as we claim it shouldn=E2=80=99t be too hard to interpose a configuration= layer > between the core facilities and the =E2=80=9Cporcelain=E2=80=9D. You mean a stable Scheme API, or a stable CLI? To me, a stable CLI is definitely the goal. As for the Scheme API, I would distinguish core APIs, peripheral APIs (e.g., the importers), (gnu system =E2=80=A6) APIs, and packages. I=E2=80=99d aim for high stability f= or core APIs, be laxer for peripheral APIs, even laxer for the remaining. I=E2=80=99m not sure what you mean about adding a configuration layer betwe= en the core facilities (the core Scheme APIs?) and the porcelain? Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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Sat, 21 Dec 2019 10:18:30 -0500 (EST) From: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> To: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-Reply-To: <87v9qapuq6.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87v9qapuq6.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 16:18:29 +0100 Message-ID: <m1sgldyaey.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Ricardo, > I wonder if we should simply bump the version number to indicate that > this is a breaking change? That's a possibility, but who ever looks at Guix version numbers? > Another more difficult option would be to do what responsible API > developers on the web do: to version their API and to make the API > version selectable. I don=E2=80=99t know *how* to do this elegantly, and That's an interesting idea which would also take care of similar situations in the future. One way to implement this is to have executables "guix1", "guix2" etc. Most users would then define an alias "guix" for interactive use, but hopefully script authors would use the versioned executables. Cheers, Konrad.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2019 08:40:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Dec 21 03:40:27 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47599 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiaJH-00088i-GE for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 03:40:27 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f54.google.com ([209.85.208.54]:33552) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <boskovits@HIDDEN>) id 1iiaJF-00088V-QF for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 03:40:26 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f54.google.com with SMTP id r21so10830654edq.0 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:40:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5g2vDz/y7Zey9jewUhZYH6UL7ZHIb+4eP1hvxv491Rw=; b=IEpnEmqudIlBl58DERnvPBdUKKJuUltwLqEEQPyfbG5s9+PzIRyykfbveor0xg3HoH 1f//rLSGV82oI6mWg8C1jDvaLigu70tKJIWSKMvTgDIFsL1mwCpAsyfXQGHZx8UBTgUR gQ/YZ0ug8NyMa+vRMMeeq0V1wq5O/kf19l5XHFHwD7nLCIXttfybKoXsil7kIyS9K2EY L0PGttid6RSUvfgJZmI4XF3gjtpOlhiO9nWbQSnba9Sj+TaKX6eJ31cZeztfiQwoZ858 x3G9PMdckzrTHqv5xR4fzTamCZLzgE6Z/99WmomsFK0WMOzUchp9UM8NBZH3KDqRpfKN LArg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5g2vDz/y7Zey9jewUhZYH6UL7ZHIb+4eP1hvxv491Rw=; b=ZyGs5Ejn0BsptSA5u0gZ24OomQQNIlyFG88tqNA6ddS7YejKV1H5PxthmNTl09K4FM fGv9VsRSg5XF5xnkkbBBgRN7qqGSSZvs7nmU06JnyQG3s5mZeycBhb4xqNTy2OJkqOR7 4/KPg7ZXJNwfREyFlIyNrtjbuIsgglUi+oxsA6iiFRZ1ycAm54ZyGFCIeuA+F1TIQiVk 5grbdXtP5B93XAmmxoDliPejvGbuJdaqrNs8n06rjQ+9A0r3UVDTDHi+OznSvO+NOPjn mltMWM4fO1ywk5BddEpVZNLfkVfMJw+fSNK6Hxq7hab2g9OR6xrLwPP461VWi+2Qviad 8dAg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUswaJo73Px6TPKjTT4zPxQscMHrNEOS4XLU8d1VIJBodUkejjI sonBucl1vVsmfrrW/IWC0/TGPwGa8T5edclMvQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy6Aq7G5moQntrk+c6Ihnf7gYr9ZkQSn7+/umdzESG+uXyeLNM+BEU13DpChXzhCmTjb1YG8ntKvZU/Ql7xaXY= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:a3d3:: with SMTP id ca19mr21126674ejb.136.1576917619612; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:40:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87tv5upttv.fsf@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 09:40:06 +0100 Message-ID: <CAE4v=pjJMc3YPft5SOeSZQAeAUsf2mnFKWiGvcSG3o_i9NV3yQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008ea096059a32be93" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000008ea096059a32be93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2019. dec.= 20., P=C3=A9n 22:32): > > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > > > Then you ask one question: "Should Guix be volatile software?" with > > the subtitle "Software developers should avoid traumatic changes". > > Nothing more. > > Well, I answer you by trying to fill the gap. Note that "volatile > > software" is the same argument than the Ludo's concern and the > > Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are > > starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. > > I=E2=80=99m just chiming in here to say that feelings of frustration are = very > valid reasons to make or object to a change. Guix is or can be a very > important piece of software =E2=80=94 if it remains reliable in the toolb= ox of > those using it. > > It is difficult striking the right balance between exciting new features > that make things possible that were previously unattainable and > dependability through stable interfaces. > > The Guix command line is by far the most commonly used interface. We > can=E2=80=99t just claim that the Scheme API is stable (which it actually= isn=E2=80=99t) > and change the user-facing CLI as we please. > > Personally, I think that it is fine to introduce breaking changes, but > that for changes that are likely to have a high potential for annoyance > and frustration there ought to be a documented way to work around them. > Breaking changes must be communicated through version number bumps and > accompanying announcements. > > While I don=E2=80=99t see how we can make it happen, I do find the idea o= f a > stable API whose version can be selected with an environment variable > intriguing and worth thinking about. If our Scheme API is as flexible > as we claim it shouldn=E2=80=99t be too hard to interpose a configuration= layer > between the core facilities and the =E2=80=9Cporcelain=E2=80=9D. > This is something that needs consideration. I believe that the original ideas presented here, and what you say about having a stable api can be easily synchronized by naming the environment variable to something like GUIX_CLI_API_VERSION. I would propose it to be of the form 1.0.1.0, so that the first three numbers could be the current guix version. Havin it this way would allow inter releas updates bumping the last number, and the ability to easily set a new default when the major version is bumped, which implies a breaking change anyways. From there on the question would be what should be the default? I would say, that is should be <current-mayor>.0.0.0. Does that make sense? Maybe we could come up with something simpler, like dropping the second and third number. > > I wonder what the other maintainers think about this. > > -- > Ricardo > > > > > --0000000000008ea096059a32be93 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" = class=3D"gmail_attr">Ricardo Wurmus <<a href=3D"mailto:rekado@HIDDEN= t">rekado@HIDDEN</a>> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2019. dec. 20., = P=C3=A9n 22:32):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin= :0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br> zimoun <<a href=3D"mailto:zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN" target=3D"_blank" re= l=3D"noreferrer">zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN</a>> writes:<br> <br> > Then you ask one question: "Should Guix be volatile software?&quo= t; with<br> > the subtitle "Software developers should avoid traumatic changes&= quot;.<br> > Nothing more.<br> > Well, I answer you by trying to fill the gap. Note that "volatile= <br> > software" is the same argument than the Ludo's concern and th= e<br> > Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are<br> > starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change= " words.<br> <br> I=E2=80=99m just chiming in here to say that feelings of frustration are ve= ry<br> valid reasons to make or object to a change.=C2=A0 Guix is or can be a very= <br> important piece of software =E2=80=94 if it remains reliable in the toolbox= of<br> those using it.<br> <br> It is difficult striking the right balance between exciting new features<br= > that make things possible that were previously unattainable and<br> dependability through stable interfaces.<br> <br> The Guix command line is by far the most commonly used interface.=C2=A0 We<= br> can=E2=80=99t just claim that the Scheme API is stable (which it actually i= sn=E2=80=99t)<br> and change the user-facing CLI as we please.<br> <br> Personally, I think that it is fine to introduce breaking changes, but<br> that for changes that are likely to have a high potential for annoyance<br> and frustration there ought to be a documented way to work around them.<br> Breaking changes must be communicated through version number bumps and<br> accompanying announcements.<br> <br> While I don=E2=80=99t see how we can make it happen, I do find the idea of = a<br> stable API whose version can be selected with an environment variable<br> intriguing and worth thinking about.=C2=A0 If our Scheme API is as flexible= <br> as we claim it shouldn=E2=80=99t be too hard to interpose a configuration l= ayer<br> between the core facilities and the =E2=80=9Cporcelain=E2=80=9D.<br></block= quote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">This is something that needs considerat= ion. I believe that the original ideas presented here, and what you say abo= ut having a stable api can be easily synchronized by naming the environment= variable to something like GUIX_CLI_API_VERSION. I would propose it to be = of the form 1.0.1.0, so that the first three numbers could be the current g= uix=C2=A0 version. Havin it this way would allow inter releas updates bumpi= ng the last number, and the ability to easily set a new default when the ma= jor version is bumped, which implies a breaking change anyways. From there = on the question would be what should be the default? I would say, that is s= hould be <current-mayor>.0.0.0. Does that make sense?=C2=A0 Maybe we = could come up with something simpler, like dropping the second and third nu= mber.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class= =3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd= ing-left:1ex"> <br> I wonder what the other maintainers think about this.<br> <br> --<br> Ricardo<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div></div></div> --0000000000008ea096059a32be93--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Dec 2019 00:04:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 19:04:28 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47391 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiSFw-0004Nr-2l for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 19:04:28 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f46.google.com ([209.85.219.46]:40153) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiSFt-0004NS-EM for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 19:04:25 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f46.google.com with SMTP id dp13so4300111qvb.7 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:04:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mOJei5sqyWjn2RA1IAd8W670d/HUHNLbjux6tMRFHtY=; b=UPj1hgpsLwLk+j/eQ802P6lxLR4cOIb5CuVJGDy0VjkSqJ8pBehdI/fhmAAHaOi42O Wuv2G9ioX64UiJhglEW1ny41cIj0gok6YhZTbk7qYTwN2X8bA2x0MMCJCeA87AjPLbmQ 9oJb9U2AjTnDlYZhvbWz5YAkCpP2DEzwEduQr/CRUg7mPHssRiq6HKaDhWZAtgEJA/RI XmsQBdjgTDur1r5Ch5o7992boT0Ors6VnrZ021revkrOTabeKU/SEy3xZT83I/47N+ZS FJTfKuXbAPXR1m22y/WhyTpWpqsZ1gZganRBGbNnO6AyOaeYQ+3WYHuVNDyDF0q/Hghf tdJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=mOJei5sqyWjn2RA1IAd8W670d/HUHNLbjux6tMRFHtY=; b=LWdM0GUQDmaG1xwABfm/IHdpFoQxEloSkPZ41zXShJ2r5Hd1BdOT4+QmyjWKpN96wY smL0rTUO+pNIopG3vACwVJDBVzNWVLhjnO6ANnoQwVxynVbp0dIeaTHdaGrV7HvSr7Kf kq9XmSWF5Z0g4h7ilQ+UWfYhhOyw1I2uFqQbio0RnZdNyx8I1e6YOwyQSeQH0qnCWF3V 7DPvrvDEKNQZM2iC6S9V5zXdme2mgTMYwhMpJi/aNE6Z3TPKE6YOLBNTnBc+m1kbOKYr fM4IahC160WbFVyO9+b1aBxzxsHz+dgySsmlyNRBCCj4rX8FJy5xxCtQfEqjmTM0Bu73 dOOw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVjh793cB2XQuaZ5etWWhEsc91FhFWJkxhqW+k7CyEdBusUHlm edM7UL4qRrjNenqeNx2aAkgseuGo8mywTgOSXwI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwquSsN4yEWdShvXOx1rDqYnsSImw2/LcWVRSYlXj14CvdNeKICAcZgAeJiu5RJy8HQc77h3jr5foBYHdgyaNQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:108a:: with SMTP id o10mr6961264qvr.246.1576886659829; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:04:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> <87o8w2iorn.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87o8w2iorn.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 01:04:08 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ071vtMPF_xsdg6wPkP7KUqE9szrDDc8_s0EVg_BDPJzA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Arne, First, do not take me wrong, I am not "fighting" or not going to an "heated debate". I am fine and I hope you are also fine. As I said my opinion in other emails, I am not repeating here. Well, I am not convinced it is the good one, but as I trust collective power, I am sure Guix will find the best consensus. I am even calling since the very beginning of this discussion to collect opinions from the other fellow hackers. Expressing the feelings is better than bitterness. Therefore I express mines. :-) I could send that privately because I am not sure it deserves to be public. But let wash the laundry in family (translation from French expression ;-)) On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 00:02, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > > Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are > > starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. > > I do not see this as feelings, but as strategy. That=E2=80=99s what the a= rticle > is about: Many small breakages add up, and repeated changes to > best-practices also add up. Just to be on the same wavelength, traumatic means in the Collins Dictionnary: "A 'traumatic' experience is very shocking and upsetting, and may cause psychological damage." https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/traumatic Well, to me it could make sense in the context of the mentioned blog. Even if I feel this very opinionated. Not to say it could hurt me; bah I am a big boy, that's ok. Again, to be on the same wavelength, the blog says: "The result has been hugely divisive and intimately familiar to anyone who works with Python, creating massive rifts in the community and wasting millions of hours of engineer time addressing. This kind of =E2=80=9Cstrong=E2=80=9D= trauma is fairly easy to spot in advance." Well, I understand when speaking about Python. Are we comparing the number of Guix users with the number of Python users? Are we comparing the number of changes between Python 2 and 3 with the change of the default "guix environment foo"? And not all the "guix environment" behaviour, only a specific case. Ok, maybe we are talking about the other trauma. The blog explains: "Since nothing has actually broken with this change, the effects are more subtle than with strong traumatic changes." and then "The opportunity to solve this problem by rewriting with asyncio in mind, however, also presents me a chance to rewrite in anything else, and reevaluate my choice of Python for the project entirely." I am sorry, I do not understand. I am probably too dumb. On one hand, the issue of "guix environment" is the very backward compatibility so are we really talking about this second "trauma"? On the other hand, because "guix environment" will be better and users probably need to rethink how they use Guix, then they will fully drop Guix. Maybe "feelings" (quoting, in citation quoted too) is not the right word. My point is all is vague. Example: I have the feeling that my students(*) do not like Scheme; do I need to switch next year to another language? Then do I make my decision based on my feelings? based on the feelings of the students who are retaking the year (could be shocked)? Me, I will make my decision based on: how many students failed? what do they understand? what could be better for all the students? what could be a better language? what is the ratio between the new student vs the retaking ones? how many length the Scheme textbook is? etc. Well, analogy is just analogy. Well, that's it. I expressed what it appears to me a trail going nowhere. Let move forward and put energy in "backward compatibility" discussion: does Guix want? what does it imply? which level? etc. for example, your interesting input "GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_STABLE=3D1". All the best, simon (*) hypothetical, I do not have real students, even if I teach a bit. And we use Python as introduction to implemented algorithms after 1 year fighting to switch from C. Whatever! :-)
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f29 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hi Arne, First, do not take me wrong, I am not "fighting" or not going to an "heated debate". I am fine and I hope you are also fine. As I said my opinion in other emails, I am not repeating here. Well, I am not convinced it is the good one, but as I trust collective power, I am sure Guix will find the best consensus. I am even calling since the very beginning of this discussion to collect opinions from the other fellow hackers. Expressing the feelings is better than bitterness. Therefore I express mines. :-) I could send that privately because I am not sure it deserves to be public. But let wash the laundry in family (translation from French expression ;-)) On Sat, 21 Dec 2019 at 00:02, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > > Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are > > starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. > > I do not see this as feelings, but as strategy. That=E2=80=99s what the a= rticle > is about: Many small breakages add up, and repeated changes to > best-practices also add up. Just to be on the same wavelength, traumatic means in the Collins Dictionnary: "A 'traumatic' experience is very shocking and upsetting, and may cause psychological damage." https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/traumatic Well, to me it could make sense in the context of the mentioned blog. Even if I feel this very opinionated. Not to say it could hurt me; bah I am a big boy, that's ok. Again, to be on the same wavelength, the blog says: "The result has been hugely divisive and intimately familiar to anyone who works with Python, creating massive rifts in the community and wasting millions of hours of engineer time addressing. This kind of =E2=80=9Cstrong=E2=80=9D= trauma is fairly easy to spot in advance." Well, I understand when speaking about Python. Are we comparing the number of Guix users with the number of Python users? Are we comparing the number of changes between Python 2 and 3 with the change of the default "guix environment foo"? And not all the "guix environment" behaviour, only a specific case. Ok, maybe we are talking about the other trauma. The blog explains: "Since nothing has actually broken with this change, the effects are more subtle than with strong traumatic changes." and then "The opportunity to solve this problem by rewriting with asyncio in mind, however, also presents me a chance to rewrite in anything else, and reevaluate my choice of Python for the project entirely." I am sorry, I do not understand. I am probably too dumb. On one hand, the issue of "guix environment" is the very backward compatibility so are we really talking about this second "trauma"? On the other hand, because "guix environment" will be better and users probably need to rethink how they use Guix, then they will fully drop Guix. Maybe "feelings" (quoting, in citation quoted too) is not the right word. My point is all is vague. Example: I have the feeling that my students(*) do not like Scheme; do I need to switch next year to another language? Then do I make my decision based on my feelings? based on the feelings of the students who are retaking the year (could be shocked)? Me, I will make my decision based on: how many students failed? what do they understand? what could be better for all the students? what could be a better language? what is the ratio between the new student vs the retaking ones? how many length the Scheme textbook is? etc. Well, analogy is just analogy. Well, that's it. I expressed what it appears to me a trail going nowhere. Let move forward and put energy in "backward compatibility" discussion: does Guix want? what does it imply? which level? etc. for example, your interesting input "GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_STABLE=3D1". All the best, simon (*) hypothetical, I do not have real students, even if I teach a bit. And we use Python as introduction to implemented algorithms after 1 year fighting to switch from C. Whatever! :-)
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 23:03:07 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 18:03:07 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47378 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiRIY-0002zL-Qc for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 18:03:06 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.15.3]:58447) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <arne_bab@HIDDEN>) id 1iiRIW-0002yr-UR for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 18:03:05 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1576882977; bh=++AqDfMCae+Kta705GY7rrjVhp3ppl+0STYRVdwh4ds=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=iY2Q7NmDXebpd3HtmxGKIQNxjjGeF/E/F+23VO2iDkZJqL0oHIvSF3sAQPyJnEOp+ SF6IKxDzDwzaIP6I9xMLLF1gE5ATkZCZnYbFxrCUJdxx2h8WMlG3BXdTPOVWrrJAxM 9IqbYiJvhW2dSzzyMzlaurEl+Z2WMHnXLc5LSM24= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([84.165.17.138]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb002 [213.165.67.108]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MaJgG-1iOa411Tr6-00Js7a; Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:02:57 +0100 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:02:52 +0100 Message-ID: <87o8w2iorn.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi zimoun, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are > starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. I do not see this as feelings, but as strategy. That=E2=80=99s what the art= icle is about: Many small breakages add up, and repeated changes to best-practices also add up. The volatile software article describes that software differs in how much work it is to keep using it. The traumatic change article discusses one aspect why people stop using projects. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl39Ux8ACgkQE++NRSQD w+vYUhAAklXBpD4PXyigANFXMLGMqdMC3eQYrD5QO5hKDTvhlEDefIrSCsRbq/ti 5boMWnIcUli5Gks4QdQ2DMrePmRKbyK8z/uL7BNOz6BlVIIKgwcwypfbzXZCV7Mj O5dZPqPA5hM0hwRABhEkQsz5/hjX5UoW4Uy2jLh7+EfGg0ITCv+5mUaWFbPQwyWh vbRm3NWMTt/FIbeOwaHMLmBiCrB4vzRTb6GsZ+tPbAKoEq7csqMOZ0leMzjWclPm gnFZtX9kQeeDOevKVAQ7jJHzkypygE9wycJ7ZIK9rRVr90/biekwGRzDWlvjwxrY 3VxzF8a9RDGRM0t3hRVe4GF9Ngf9TmX5LDoEY/EmIj1V+ZTZYhYi1fRDD5AGNz8L PapgE6SDQVYaVnoxX1HROt2I0VLEjbZqHzhj2iVC0gU5cCpfHanVDFKtkARiYiej U6B1S/JHOzPhA7d9rzxghAC+5zACNYmHLYASCY+5TfIC5Xcin+2wGXXmTiJHZgMg r6ZSsc8sBaQ3FrnIX00MLVa2JxeWPznK7RyuyBzwKEn6zYK7VjnKBS61tLYnj5tb jo+Np/SbT/4f30LC9P9rUzLXQzmqwFsviFWOiDcAOHf+75k2LjO3/h3nz25RuILn i0Ub7Nd5dKIPp+eoBxtJch6AMIFYa8vgThHxy2zIbAt7a2DGaWKIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd/VMfAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIM64EAIFu1nUh vkoVT7CR6fMYGl76dwqrNi5TkhO9kX6mXZfhkgcnW+O6+2lWCjGCuSIICSFE5/uZ UjzZv8J2RyhwgP6s3mQ/fckTvS03vt94ESnnmBuhnT2huTXlKu6nyJX1lUN/fAQn 5K1Fc9ZkWzyWbCspwJZWkRGTMQFBtkhJ+pCc =CGQ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2019 00:02:52 +0100 Message-ID: <87o8w2iorn.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:iHIdTrfVYk7LacFuYcrAHQMwpTHYy+OxhtFnv5H4bKwMWUdB1MV Ff7zoVk87Sqn4LLjKwNCnqlbZf5dsg8IQd/KB024L6oZtACasegqK4OHgg5m8FT5MYTbQIP J4p0uMyN2QvG+kfCp88vVoGWN6HtSZFgz51msSuXCVrMVH2dAaUVv03gj7aOzLKtCqFmbIy CtLlF5gDEV/CqGDyILxuw== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:jFuwJhzV8Eo=:rEzzOwohA3ITydmtH3zk6s TVtuoKSMiPLQK5lOuCt4tbcv8E3KpcOHignUx1Do5i1Hn9nusrYFjkSFULHnXIsMM5WTwcoe8 SSeHCxroJhIkRcwl+LW1rJHTSTl+4c/Al6ErCR0M2G0mEOQuBegRqOITSDZmfroxhimCkcmnC Ru2rF1z85Ol8P+aeCIRlCivNPg6Qq7jdCtZbTIEu/1U/bM1mgqF6BjD43h4nHzk9kC7u0ARrg IfDoKTGRQ7t7XEL0ut+ktcb6x+9TzklUK1iuRX/M+DocjIFRDf3HAWTSejkvXxgoiG6CLJBBy zZxeB0nJEps4oVTJqDuhlPiKbh+vz7LoiWi7y4P1/DSssxrRzgQyG/HWjUd28pCkKO9DlX0lZ ZsQ3f3x4jrIKUEw/gPdO9gN4UUiUhDvitXLYNNzTqyF77ZRFgo/Sv+Lc5pvP8l6jejk73sJFi l1vqd8b1/A2nVs2xLx96JRh2PPF41QqiRovCmJtTx0g3q9Y6xiI4mONBLX9o5HOhuq7XjEDVW 7RLhjqnvnBLyEiYmc9+WhR0gyyY9kJrA/YLskCxwR11bABVLEKm1rUYvu39z4PZmJhaQamBfz hZPU3Kxn3rJfm1lUoWNm9NBBug37umMVwBt6t9Rf3R2nZvfEvTzlKVH9GihBPJo+X0bsT88Us ZL/XPouczXvVt42OgTJ6lV6Ze94COzvURuWUb9wsHg5EJx8VC31AFWufkuf+1IElBmEmAT0CF mFdjsYdo6QLMlH9wHXf9ViPhRvpVEdhz9597xYXP81j8XxTWPHJsxSQ4lIz2M2JGRKkYSOrnH vS9NsDB1C4j8N/LrrxeV6PJwseovhFpfLT1QHpFrdH/+5oNt2zyb4xkIXbeslDbyfs5T4gBc9 hZFpXD72aBmecmuGwTViqmcOqqqEe59qJsC2w+boScPzDxGLBUNetl3s0Lxj9tKTo7iRvm+07 CTc0zETjG4lykIFHdZuFtk4m1LW3jx6wnEWOlWCS6M8rrKfwOxUZ26yWIbXpKrfKbNoXSuS1p gDxe/0XMEc+sDQ6TPYs8A5GTc2xOFnmAERJ2htprn53Om9ttPnKnwZF1bTDAXy7Ku5ApcvbL7 vEcGFCYWTyviYhQD8jWFuYbmGFhEp4xfj1S2PnV1DB20LoiTqhkG7ZDcXOW71buzSyXxQWuuI S4OkqPqYkgPFwpeiRoLSN+9VJWm86UUVsa7jiet6bs7A9zn4baRHfXIeRhlqNrT3D5Gyualjc oxI6gE2qgJxHTyA8MZDpC6R56M7l8/Z9l2RGeVA== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 212.227.15.3 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi zimoun, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are > starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. I do not see this as feelings, but as strategy. That=E2=80=99s what the art= icle is about: Many small breakages add up, and repeated changes to best-practices also add up. The volatile software article describes that software differs in how much work it is to keep using it. The traumatic change article discusses one aspect why people stop using projects. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl39Ux8ACgkQE++NRSQD w+vYUhAAklXBpD4PXyigANFXMLGMqdMC3eQYrD5QO5hKDTvhlEDefIrSCsRbq/ti 5boMWnIcUli5Gks4QdQ2DMrePmRKbyK8z/uL7BNOz6BlVIIKgwcwypfbzXZCV7Mj O5dZPqPA5hM0hwRABhEkQsz5/hjX5UoW4Uy2jLh7+EfGg0ITCv+5mUaWFbPQwyWh vbRm3NWMTt/FIbeOwaHMLmBiCrB4vzRTb6GsZ+tPbAKoEq7csqMOZ0leMzjWclPm gnFZtX9kQeeDOevKVAQ7jJHzkypygE9wycJ7ZIK9rRVr90/biekwGRzDWlvjwxrY 3VxzF8a9RDGRM0t3hRVe4GF9Ngf9TmX5LDoEY/EmIj1V+ZTZYhYi1fRDD5AGNz8L PapgE6SDQVYaVnoxX1HROt2I0VLEjbZqHzhj2iVC0gU5cCpfHanVDFKtkARiYiej U6B1S/JHOzPhA7d9rzxghAC+5zACNYmHLYASCY+5TfIC5Xcin+2wGXXmTiJHZgMg r6ZSsc8sBaQ3FrnIX00MLVa2JxeWPznK7RyuyBzwKEn6zYK7VjnKBS61tLYnj5tb jo+Np/SbT/4f30LC9P9rUzLXQzmqwFsviFWOiDcAOHf+75k2LjO3/h3nz25RuILn i0Ub7Nd5dKIPp+eoBxtJch6AMIFYa8vgThHxy2zIbAt7a2DGaWKIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd/VMfAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIM64EAIFu1nUh vkoVT7CR6fMYGl76dwqrNi5TkhO9kX6mXZfhkgcnW+O6+2lWCjGCuSIICSFE5/uZ UjzZv8J2RyhwgP6s3mQ/fckTvS03vt94ESnnmBuhnT2huTXlKu6nyJX1lUN/fAQn 5K1Fc9ZkWzyWbCspwJZWkRGTMQFBtkhJ+pCc =CGQ6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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Note that "volatile > software" is the same argument than the Ludo's concern and the > Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are > starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. I=E2=80=99m just chiming in here to say that feelings of frustration are ve= ry valid reasons to make or object to a change. Guix is or can be a very important piece of software =E2=80=94 if it remains reliable in the toolbox= of those using it. It is difficult striking the right balance between exciting new features that make things possible that were previously unattainable and dependability through stable interfaces. The Guix command line is by far the most commonly used interface. We can=E2=80=99t just claim that the Scheme API is stable (which it actually i= sn=E2=80=99t) and change the user-facing CLI as we please. Personally, I think that it is fine to introduce breaking changes, but that for changes that are likely to have a high potential for annoyance and frustration there ought to be a documented way to work around them. Breaking changes must be communicated through version number bumps and accompanying announcements. While I don=E2=80=99t see how we can make it happen, I do find the idea of a stable API whose version can be selected with an environment variable intriguing and worth thinking about. If our Scheme API is as flexible as we claim it shouldn=E2=80=99t be too hard to interpose a configuration l= ayer between the core facilities and the =E2=80=9Cporcelain=E2=80=9D. I wonder what the other maintainers think about this. -- Ricardo
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 21:12:26 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 16:12:26 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:47308 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiPZR-0000C7-V8 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:12:26 -0500 Received: from sender4-of-o51.zoho.com ([136.143.188.51]:21124) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <rekado@HIDDEN>) id 1iiPZQ-0000C0-Ey for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 16:12:24 -0500 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1576876341; cv=none; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; b=KC8qOSk1lgJIPcLWQ3jc39WMfc9xlYlJ/4RvHXfdYYuPIhyp1j131mWGZiY3SVgL/dZhn6W/4Sgj5y+/f78AizMLJa4zCbRS3N6JxrEX1xMSvDLbYxuLR6KQc6EXvVevb04TkbhcRYONUI7ep1k4L8yB6TebYSLW/z1IvGUVN8E= ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=zohomail.com; s=zohoarc; t=1576876341; h=Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding:Cc:Date:From:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Message-ID:References:Subject:To; bh=N13jcy6MQYVWG+S+p/THeH9XERiymTOcnuMOiQucG74=; b=LtXwlFgGI8YV4VfkirQ3U+MVbkBTQScDJv2UkYADYWBDdthlEBy3j9ERroiKKceTYnJwykm50nkHTeWboR/VsWWIbI+Kn5RqPh8HZk2RyfPTZsFxBXbm2T3oq4wZPqZEn0Z1CePnr8kmCNvpLCx7K0QDNXaAg0HIuZQOgwCuhXU= ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.zohomail.com; dkim=pass header.i=elephly.net; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=rekado@HIDDEN; dmarc=pass header.from=<rekado@HIDDEN> header.from=<rekado@HIDDEN> DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1576876341; s=zoho; d=elephly.net; i=rekado@HIDDEN; h=References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; bh=N13jcy6MQYVWG+S+p/THeH9XERiymTOcnuMOiQucG74=; b=FeiZoli+dvZs9ocdLBfyE9W89kba8eDoemKBxWl1L2VUSzhjuUIbu/1kcbb6aJzl G0NTJHRcRkfbuj3isr6ck09U4od9UILFnw69JK9aQJnHTyD20h8a+dXwURsFtLVNAzw g/AHOMMpt1PT6CG2cWTs+ObWfu/pMO3eHknemUQc= Received: from localhost (p54AD4BF0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.173.75.240]) by mx.zohomail.com with SMTPS id 1576876340375788.1906509358064; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:12:20 -0800 (PST) References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.3 From: Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@HIDDEN> To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> X-URL: https://elephly.net X-PGP-Key: https://elephly.net/rekado.pubkey X-PGP-Fingerprint: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 22:12:17 +0100 Message-ID: <87v9qapuq6.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ZohoMailClient: External X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> writes: >> Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something >> else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in >> the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>". > > Concrete example: I am writing a tutorial about using Guix for > reproducible research. It shows several uses of "guix environment", some > of them without '=E2=80=93add-hoc' or '=E2=80=93inputs-of'. I know my exa= mples will > cease to work in a few months. What am I supposed to do about this? I wonder if we should simply bump the version number to indicate that this is a breaking change? Another more difficult option would be to do what responsible API developers on the web do: to version their API and to make the API version selectable. I don=E2=80=99t know *how* to do this elegantly, and there=E2=80=99s a real maintenance cost (it seems small in this case), but configuration files can be used for changing new defaults. -- Ricardo
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 13:21:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 08:21:52 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46012 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiIE4-00050i-3f for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:21:52 -0500 Received: from mail-qk1-f175.google.com ([209.85.222.175]:38825) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiIE2-00050R-VH for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 08:21:51 -0500 Received: by mail-qk1-f175.google.com with SMTP id k6so7587582qki.5 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:21:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0zJNsdmXfz/uwjSQsWi0WYblqnf2mIc82olyPAhHzDQ=; b=A1EsuPqQsAVErYE7sEskK43EfWKEq6FY8b9dXUN51Z2+KxMghZD39IW6DIUX1AZi8T 8mAK3X36EF5ScSnUolxBkBND4uZI/54sI8rWLNdg6L2iBeDInWraenBHbTyWYNHqkQ3Z /gJu/4W+6U5PAmDPZHVNHdcaNtvyGKvqE4eXXV8BLgXDk29CNn6tpPyPgTzcFJhla3nb 8sUZJ6Hm6qQ+ZoYRC/Mna8F4reBvZouCncOEq/rLSKIz+xhUrs7ODk6C1sgrKApNOV1k DR/YMFVseaXdZMQAy+faEiQuxLYCnTXGb5XY58qnmBe1hoO/VI7M1qbhRk4fqjnwju0L ApJw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0zJNsdmXfz/uwjSQsWi0WYblqnf2mIc82olyPAhHzDQ=; b=E0ejqOdoXO8q9GMVhwb7YRwRBhBgYvsy6JSq1HMcDkgsAOev4fwovGkXdIBV0L8oNw mbxVTNl316rGOQZMBvbLOWsMrGfePX/EpmAU0cRhaVs7tL8to116fA/X6rkO0kmoraJ4 hY0CCUENPjY/zgIUgOT+knESgCDhHLcjTOrv8vqAKfdGNCFrgGrbkKQwnckShcpPArAG 5FIhiJV4HAfWspETAfpETXkIQmlDO9TQvyLsslUTQ8FbAfImGVmjgHYUpFHkUXJzvozN SoSGw9rtP4SKl8O3npRWEWUdYQZ3DBCGGdTdJjV3FxNo0gQSQzrLyt5j6eV3le9+MrbP wspg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAX0xk0l9uI7f4JJF2ThawzP9Nudt9KkoLBROfWwNoV793sMV92c W4dSzVx5a5nwACzwtiU6oEPxcenmDE+H+Sjexrc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwrj5/zj9P5muYeUI8p6PE+piyMok4SRswo2CWpvjSdavi8EeXo9N5zpdcf4USv8D2VtmlC9d65ZNukIQmM9cY= X-Received: by 2002:a37:63c7:: with SMTP id x190mr13217203qkb.232.1576848105490; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 05:21:45 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <87k16snuoz.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <m1immbz1ny.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <m1immbz1ny.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 14:21:34 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ1paGtBzEGQZOn2U5Y4chTtR+MxK7PkAT1i_4orSHdOMA@HIDDEN> Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IERlcHJlY2F0aW5nIOKAmGd1aXggZW52aXJvbm1lbnTigJk/?= To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Konrad, On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 12:18, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> wrote: > My point of view (long form: > https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02117588) > is that software projects should adopt a backwards compatibility policy > early on, state it clearly in their documentation, and stick to it. That > prevents misunderstandings, bad surprises, and heated debates. Thank you for the pointer. I have not read yet. I agree with the compatibility policy and this argument has been raises in the "heated" debate with Arne. :-) > As for what that policy should be for Guix, that's a more difficult > story. For projects with versioned releases, I like the principles The first idea which comes in mind is to introduce a pledge. Maybe in the introduction. "The Guix project pledges to keep backward compatibility... blabla". However, the real question is at which level. At the CLI level? At the exported scheme functions? All modules or specific ones? > of semantic versioning, but Guix is more of a rolling-release > project. (Test question: does anyone know what the current Guix version > number is? Does anyone care?) I am not aware of any good precedents > in terms of policy for such projects. I agree. I proposed [1] to add "tags" in the meaning of "git tag". Initially, to ease the navigation through the history when searching for packages. Re-hashing this "guix tag" or "guix pull --tag" proposal, one idea could be to introduce tags, say v1.1, v1.2, v1.3 etc bumping the version every X months, or after each core-update merge, or after <you-name-it>, then by default "guix pull" would update to the tags. This adds "stability" because we could tag commits that we know are stable (no "guix pull" break, etc.) [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2019-11/msg00513.html > > The hard question then becomes: what do we call it? I vote against > > abbreviations. :-) > > > > Also, what other goals would we set for that command? How would we > > frame it in the set of commands? > > I vote for discussing the second point before the first one. Names > should reflect the functionality behind them. The starting point seems: - https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2017-08/msg00300.html - what do you feel missing about "guix environment"? Considering my use-case, I am mostly aligned with "The future of 'guix environment'". All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 12:03:24 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 07:03:24 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45984 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiH08-00010o-Gy for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:03:24 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f52.google.com ([209.85.219.52]:35573) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiH06-00010Y-BP for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 07:03:23 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f52.google.com with SMTP id u10so3440016qvi.2 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 04:03:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PPLjqMpWwNNKkVhhpw19ZPMkGWHN2Dlt3sLJWX2Tz7g=; b=NPUFP/QlPvz/ETfjDitJngIlDNG9NMtzjcSMbDpBk8T4qnWZFu/HejPmIFSquOj9G8 rhJHzoOZNPOxf0A+AbQxLRiz3Kw94ycQWhHIouYVtUsgYq1wQYQlVBqUElKzzSJuxXCt FnuRkqtJb1ijrb5/IoiUosRap7gEJawanBxfTcCGr8Nc0y4EiL+7VuEr92uMXkVG4js6 PrRa3J+/XIi2iOr8+tbRpLMzmy+Tz05cMB33et4AGnXbJKw3Ol6tffeG9wyM4w6VRrkm Iu5ZZLnAO/h5JRuOyuKRuImHKZQ55NhA0C08j14x3oLKFY/1S/qGhT9k+e8pVzRAbhpX GJrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PPLjqMpWwNNKkVhhpw19ZPMkGWHN2Dlt3sLJWX2Tz7g=; b=g/sfqK1PrbdTcKeq1R5TcoyVBtU1OT87hI1quEl/Q5JZ91n3B9g2FUBoq7rXohZdMC LjgrdcnAgqakjHIZ8n7ZKtjdByfLT4B2q855xBTP9BD4q6CaiR5cfbLQna/w4a7fhWD8 UhcNHszLcuiAbnQsDeDFEW7zlWz+0LyEdCYycSBmI1s0LGi3MIHQrQlI7eMT48PrMBir u0r1iu4rFHSZV9wfbsk3xfzSbSXZYLmMpA7Slnw8JIT9Hj2bFC/7urnBv7W/1gPHoTJ5 yjeQW53prMJxbZPRXF/AAkRkH6l0Wt9Yypd07oj1JvW2vZ9+0iOGFxPvWjie+3PeSKjS rgmg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVOTJT2XYyWdn/iTSLxI9X60LsoWgmWfnDmVovhvwyHnACPfPoF d00HZb6h2ebgkKyAhgNR5oFxhtUDhG7RYE6tCRs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxrvLV8a3e33UjqhxQ0Ons3b3a5M8i3Zhia5r7xuDkdTkQNouy78Ff5T0ct8WKIb+E+chVPI8sz+UWAAX+A7ag= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:108a:: with SMTP id o10mr4348994qvr.246.1576843396816; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 04:03:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3zSS0Rbnu5eLhpYHPvSY1emaj=-estQcjRwiJ3=4RMMA@HIDDEN> <m1fthfz1db.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <m1fthfz1db.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:03:05 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ32Ozgky=qUtj+QwjNRoX6aTzWKrMXy0M0wZpLAZRi8pg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Konrad, On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 12:24, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> wrote: > The problem is scripts circulating in public repositories, tutorials, > etc. New users will find them and use them for inspiration. It's very > discouraging to see examples from tutorials fail or do something weird. As I said, I am not convinced because it lacks concrete examples. Personally, I do not know Guix ressource outside the Guix ecosystem. > The main precedent is the Python 2->3 transition. There are tons of > GitHub repositories with Python code but no indication if it's 2, 3, or > both. I even had to use one that executed with either 2 or 3, but gave > different results. It takes a lot of motivation to persist. Except that "guix environment" will raise warnings. Whatever. > For guix, there's the additional issue that we use the reproducibility > of builds as an argument. Non-reproducible examples are then a bit of a > credibility problem. I agree. I do not want to fight about "backward compatibility". As I said, talking about "guix environment", my opinion is that the cost of the change is low. However, we cannot know this cost, only probe and estimate: using my probings, I estimate the cost is low. IMHO, in this case, there is 2 ways to make a decision: - more probings to estimate more precisely; or - say: "no backward compatibility breakage" I am fine with both. :-) - I report my use-case: no cost at all - I propose the name "guix shell" However, I feel I have spent enough time and energy on this topic and I feel a blocking situation so I will move forward to another topic. :-) All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 11:40:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 06:40:52 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45975 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiGeK-0000PU-AU for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:40:52 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f51.google.com ([209.85.219.51]:39205) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiGeF-0000Oj-KK for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:40:47 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f51.google.com with SMTP id y8so3489673qvk.6 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 03:40:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4xsJOiUMY5CVuanpC56KcR1NN+h1LL+deKjbyLMxws4=; b=C6o00HbKmicrLu+CzFrm+pgUYKv3OGRbCGpC7kepRVoZe53aIPQa3Q8E7v1gwuMGPG 3QT9IA5dVjILfdbuxvqSnx47gEZQtY1LB2wLuQYIjdWCUlz0e4XdgHHRlqJ5JdeXIMGI MJYzH/tSLiVXPN9M+hzAJzLtvAh+sPln9/ZQceE+rhIfnJDselC+iXym28nAhfJuXRBo dVZPVemWreaocXwXWUIIltvcSTgDbj4tDtCp2dT3kv1FFExEhlNLsLU0Z9AhUhr72lST D3Y2B+dlM/peSAMF/DYqM7HfIYPu5YJdzKi/b5qCnK1ZOoge/A8SClX/qTy9Vz2mtyt+ 8XRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4xsJOiUMY5CVuanpC56KcR1NN+h1LL+deKjbyLMxws4=; b=iuMmk7heIOl7Edpnsq0D30+ie5VZ/+TaiD1yO4FbHt5RNYEH795wQm37VlSV+xqZyH Yu2QFjyqlKf6QnF1YDrgOSqMtGJ+rodSQb5rjTQN2x7HAN/Js8mAQ97see77nYvvvJ6c uQqKaa703FhToeoXXZL6UGDOWv6U1S9dQhqVMYl9zySXaVOXTmoZShdtIlprnhgz6ahr 8LxRoy1fwuZvcIGobN8ZkDSQ421pFgoBlbymzgNSzK8xcd/ecb7IEq/Z2oQn/3VOn9cn zrPw78+JGkENSqAVbRG2rI9IkzMo0WAGGJRkqR0IVrF5kBukBwnbwWyvZCPyoaBRAr/s J1VA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAU1LWyjRhh9ZpRke5gLpJVNTnJehd3ovIEGwQ9KZ8Yszy6Nylu1 ZZvssctKuAg9qZZFMDKsmy6PuvVgcbSkOxSYK8M= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxOCFe3xJHYaLOw6/heDnVsOfDeq5n1CfgUjSKX1i1wMcb2SxzTaWLBqpnbsO+z/2Ap0slInoTdlpIXcfmXhvE= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:ca06:: with SMTP id c6mr11792884qvk.74.1576842042016; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 03:40:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:40:30 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Arne, On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 02:37, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > > Or are you (maybe a bit) "overreacting" about the backward compatibilit= y? > > I don=E2=80=99t think so. I am definitely reacting strongly, but that=E2= =80=99s because > breakages in Guix have already cost me the evenings of several weeks > this year. > > But before I write anything more, I=E2=80=99d like to ask you to take a s= tep > back to breathe. > > We=E2=80=99re discussing a change in software. We disagree on the way for= ward, > but I=E2=80=99m not attacking you as a person, and I hope it does not fee= l that > way to you. > > If it does: This is not my intention. Please take a moment to sigh > deeply, shake your head, relax, and smile =E2=80=94 because that actually= helps. > It=E2=80=99s what I try to do when discussions get vexing. > > I am grateful that you=E2=80=99re taking up improvements in Guix, and the= re are > situations where viewpoints are different. That is OK. I am fine. :-) Life is about managing disagreements. And I am probably a typical grouchy French. ;-) Well, if we go back in time, the story is: - the original author of "guix environment" is not happy with the current behaviour and proposes a change (see "The future of 'guix environment'"). - life happens (v1.0) but not this change. - I am not happy with the current behaviour and other on IRC neither. - a plan to change is opened for discussions. The first concern by Ludo is about the compatibility. Then Konrad raises concrete examples. At this point, my personal opinion is: the cost is low so the change can ha= ppen. However, I agree with the "backward compatibility" issue and even I propose a name for this "new" command: "guix shell". Then you ask one question: "Should Guix be volatile software?" with the subtitle "Software developers should avoid traumatic changes". Nothing more. Well, I answer you by trying to fill the gap. Note that "volatile software" is the same argument than the Ludo's concern and the Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. Then, your following answer is more about your feelings than concrete examples. It is hard to know in advance how many scripts or use-cases would be broken -- i.e., estimate the cost -- and a way is to probe; say: "it will break X of my scripts" or "in my institute, X people use "guix environment blabla" daily, so it is not an option", etc. Otherwise, it is unproductive. Well, instead of arguing about feelings because it is going nowhere or at better a flame war about "backward compatibility", I prefer going to spend my time elsewhere (still about Guix :-)). I mean, I proposed, I said my opinion and I called to collect more opinions. I feel I did my best on this front and other fronts deserve proposals and fixes. Kind regards, simon ps: Note that I did a proposal which could be a path to reduce the burden of "guix pull" breakage: adding tags. Feel free to comment. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2019-11/msg00513.html
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 11:40:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 06:40:49 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45973 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiGeG-0000PC-R2 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:40:49 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:37073) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiGeF-0000Ov-1A for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:40:47 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38180) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiGeD-0005fA-Dd for bug-guix@HIDDEN; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:40:46 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiGeB-0005Cu-9E for bug-guix@HIDDEN; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:40:45 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-xf35.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35]:32983) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1iiGeB-0005BI-2q; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:40:43 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-xf35.google.com with SMTP id z3so3503625qvn.0; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 03:40:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4xsJOiUMY5CVuanpC56KcR1NN+h1LL+deKjbyLMxws4=; b=C6o00HbKmicrLu+CzFrm+pgUYKv3OGRbCGpC7kepRVoZe53aIPQa3Q8E7v1gwuMGPG 3QT9IA5dVjILfdbuxvqSnx47gEZQtY1LB2wLuQYIjdWCUlz0e4XdgHHRlqJ5JdeXIMGI MJYzH/tSLiVXPN9M+hzAJzLtvAh+sPln9/ZQceE+rhIfnJDselC+iXym28nAhfJuXRBo dVZPVemWreaocXwXWUIIltvcSTgDbj4tDtCp2dT3kv1FFExEhlNLsLU0Z9AhUhr72lST D3Y2B+dlM/peSAMF/DYqM7HfIYPu5YJdzKi/b5qCnK1ZOoge/A8SClX/qTy9Vz2mtyt+ 8XRg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=4xsJOiUMY5CVuanpC56KcR1NN+h1LL+deKjbyLMxws4=; b=HkbqU7iQ3lUOpo4Nh7vTs6hLD/cFFGXJ0K6DLppZNWhniKjssOCkqScKKfVt0083Xf ljzUHLrG7x72XsR8wmtjfZIU+u64z0PbSw9h25cgN+aAFUKGV26XSiyok8ZfQ+drkdu4 mssD7V51awrmEdgMlcHj7arCRSDIdHLQT8gw7FgO1TfJR6jeIo8X9S7DVoDqEUTLt8vK 95UAH/SzVceuhrLKd+/rNf/CK0VroWULJRVfA2GAqq9RoqocwAcmkozc5rTVbyJelMIx nAO0p23RhFnB2yQ1CPTJcMymABKQSgY2m18BE/So4W/q4umLCyzsAD2TLkLPb+DV8rMY 3XtA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUYVKtgPgbNkN+PcXYlRX7sqFZPgD7R9bVl+Cb2OiSmgAQ4jPQG bviaO7qhtEUK6APAviB3NEzpDCw+bR5XaiBNs14= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxOCFe3xJHYaLOw6/heDnVsOfDeq5n1CfgUjSKX1i1wMcb2SxzTaWLBqpnbsO+z/2Ap0slInoTdlpIXcfmXhvE= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:ca06:: with SMTP id c6mr11792884qvk.74.1576842042016; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 03:40:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:40:30 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ2XTAbPp0m7TQqCEi_oz223HyBd0BZefRO4Q90xmni2mw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hi Arne, On Fri, 20 Dec 2019 at 02:37, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > > Or are you (maybe a bit) "overreacting" about the backward compatibilit= y? > > I don=E2=80=99t think so. I am definitely reacting strongly, but that=E2= =80=99s because > breakages in Guix have already cost me the evenings of several weeks > this year. > > But before I write anything more, I=E2=80=99d like to ask you to take a s= tep > back to breathe. > > We=E2=80=99re discussing a change in software. We disagree on the way for= ward, > but I=E2=80=99m not attacking you as a person, and I hope it does not fee= l that > way to you. > > If it does: This is not my intention. Please take a moment to sigh > deeply, shake your head, relax, and smile =E2=80=94 because that actually= helps. > It=E2=80=99s what I try to do when discussions get vexing. > > I am grateful that you=E2=80=99re taking up improvements in Guix, and the= re are > situations where viewpoints are different. That is OK. I am fine. :-) Life is about managing disagreements. And I am probably a typical grouchy French. ;-) Well, if we go back in time, the story is: - the original author of "guix environment" is not happy with the current behaviour and proposes a change (see "The future of 'guix environment'"). - life happens (v1.0) but not this change. - I am not happy with the current behaviour and other on IRC neither. - a plan to change is opened for discussions. The first concern by Ludo is about the compatibility. Then Konrad raises concrete examples. At this point, my personal opinion is: the cost is low so the change can ha= ppen. However, I agree with the "backward compatibility" issue and even I propose a name for this "new" command: "guix shell". Then you ask one question: "Should Guix be volatile software?" with the subtitle "Software developers should avoid traumatic changes". Nothing more. Well, I answer you by trying to fill the gap. Note that "volatile software" is the same argument than the Ludo's concern and the Konrad's example. So, nothing new on the table; except you are starting to throw "feelings" with the "traumatic change" words. Then, your following answer is more about your feelings than concrete examples. It is hard to know in advance how many scripts or use-cases would be broken -- i.e., estimate the cost -- and a way is to probe; say: "it will break X of my scripts" or "in my institute, X people use "guix environment blabla" daily, so it is not an option", etc. Otherwise, it is unproductive. Well, instead of arguing about feelings because it is going nowhere or at better a flame war about "backward compatibility", I prefer going to spend my time elsewhere (still about Guix :-)). I mean, I proposed, I said my opinion and I called to collect more opinions. I feel I did my best on this front and other fronts deserve proposals and fixes. Kind regards, simon ps: Note that I did a proposal which could be a path to reduce the burden of "guix pull" breakage: adding tags. Feel free to comment. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2019-11/msg00513.html
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:24:01 -0500 (EST) From: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-Reply-To: <CAJ3okZ3zSS0Rbnu5eLhpYHPvSY1emaj=-estQcjRwiJ3=4RMMA@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3zSS0Rbnu5eLhpYHPvSY1emaj=-estQcjRwiJ3=4RMMA@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:24:00 +0100 Message-ID: <m1fthfz1db.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Simon, > Assuming "guix environment" would stay and following the proposed > plan, you would need to add GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=1 on the top > of your script. In this would not be a problem for travelling back in > time. The problem is not how I update my scripts - I can manage that, no matter what it takes. The problem is scripts circulating in public repositories, tutorials, etc. New users will find them and use them for inspiration. It's very discouraging to see examples from tutorials fail or do something weird. The main precedent is the Python 2->3 transition. There are tons of GitHub repositories with Python code but no indication if it's 2, 3, or both. I even had to use one that executed with either 2 or 3, but gave different results. It takes a lot of motivation to persist. For guix, there's the additional issue that we use the reproducibility of builds as an argument. Non-reproducible examples are then a bit of a credibility problem. Cheers, Konrad.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 11:17:47 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 20 06:17:47 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45949 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iiGHz-00084x-4J for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:17:47 -0500 Received: from out2-smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.26]:59545) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN>) id 1iiGHw-00084b-B9 for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:17:45 -0500 Received: from compute7.internal (compute7.nyi.internal [10.202.2.47]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34AD0223DC; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:17:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailfrontend1 ([10.202.2.162]) by compute7.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:17:39 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fastmail.net; 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Fri, 20 Dec 2019 06:17:38 -0500 (EST) From: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> To: Ludovic =?utf-8?Q?Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: Deprecating =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=98guix_environment=E2=80=99=3F?= In-Reply-To: <87k16snuoz.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <87k16snuoz.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 12:17:37 +0100 Message-ID: <m1immbz1ny.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: guix-devel@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Ludo, > Clearly there=E2=80=99s a tension between that and keeping Guix open to c= hanges. That's indeed the main problem and here as elsewhere, it is often a topic of heated arguments. My point of view (long form: https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-02117588) is that software projects should adopt a backwards compatibility policy early on, state it clearly in their documentation, and stick to it. That prevents misunderstandings, bad surprises, and heated debates. As for what that policy should be for Guix, that's a more difficult story. For projects with versioned releases, I like the principles of semantic versioning, but Guix is more of a rolling-release project. (Test question: does anyone know what the current Guix version number is? Does anyone care?) I am not aware of any good precedents in terms of policy for such projects. > The hard question then becomes: what do we call it? I vote against > abbreviations. :-) > > Also, what other goals would we set for that command? How would we > frame it in the set of commands? I vote for discussing the second point before the first one. Names should reflect the functionality behind them. How about a unified command for constructing environments and profiles declaratively? In other words, combine "guix environment" and the declarative parts of "guix package". We could probably get rid of the somewhat obscure "guix environment -r" in the process. Cheers, Konrad.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Dec 2019 01:37:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 20:37:49 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45747 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ii7Ei-00027a-9t for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 20:37:49 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([217.72.192.78]:42693) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <arne_bab@HIDDEN>) id 1ii7Ee-00027L-MZ for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 20:37:45 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1576805857; bh=7w/eR58ORNgTUn2UKFZHIdpOyqvKMi8eOlkXPcxLmJg=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=NBLVOlwp5hX/pC+py9K2nhZLNg50uowFtFX7by33teh1tBXxWMIAcUtTOo87Mhyg0 LcFyMhwtS2vvkfMoswwAVBZLaVA5weI0zkw9QDOOpAo0FhPEMD5a7Tjw+M7vVDYhMT 1VRWuA9XVBxiT0nSPY4gbdk5zz3jjOLYBbUjIqU0= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([84.165.17.138]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0M0Qkb-1hoVFF2l4f-00uWx6; Fri, 20 Dec 2019 02:37:36 +0100 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 02:37:32 +0100 Message-ID: <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > First, have you read the proposal? Yes. > Or are you (maybe a bit) "overreacting" about the backward compatibility? I don=E2=80=99t think so. I am definitely reacting strongly, but that=E2=80= =99s because breakages in Guix have already cost me the evenings of several weeks this year. But before I write anything more, I=E2=80=99d like to ask you to take a step back to breathe. We=E2=80=99re discussing a change in software. We disagree on the way forwa= rd, but I=E2=80=99m not attacking you as a person, and I hope it does not feel = that way to you. If it does: This is not my intention. Please take a moment to sigh deeply, shake your head, relax, and smile =E2=80=94 because that actually h= elps. It=E2=80=99s what I try to do when discussions get vexing. I am grateful that you=E2=80=99re taking up improvements in Guix, and there= are situations where viewpoints are different. That is OK. >> This is taking this a bit too easy. If I can no longer pull, because >> that breaks my Emacs or Gnome, then Guix is broken for me: I can no >> longer update my system without first adjusting my config. > > So you expect that we would push a patch changing "guix environment" > and in the same time break "guix pull, isn't it? No, this is an example which shows that being able to roll back does not mean that there is no problem with breaking the way forward. Using only old versions is often not an option. Just imagine running audio software from 5 years ago on a system that only provides pulseaudio (or whatever will come after it). Imagine using an old KDE DCOP-based automation workflow on a dbus-system. You need to update the libraries you use to get it working at all. >> > Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the >> > number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost >> > sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). >> >> I=E2=80=99m not so sure. Guix is already used in scientific workflows, a= nd there >> is existing third-party documentation about using `guix environment`. > > Please point me where. > It will save me time instead of reinventing the wheel. It was mentioned on this list. For the scientific workflows, see https://hpc.guix.info/ >> And can you name the people using `guix environment` by searching >> backwards in their bash history? > > So what would break? > Your workflow: spending 5 minutes to read the warning message and then pr= essing: > C-a GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRACATED=3D1 guix environment <your-complicated-in= vokation> > > (unfair and bitter; sorry!) I=E2=80=99m sorry that this makes you bitter. This is not my intention. I=E2=80=99ll answer without bitterness: The original environment does not s= pawn instantly. It takes many minutes until it is ready. If I then have to go back, find the warning (it=E2=80=99s likely that I=E2=80=99d miss it, becau= se these are things that work, and suddenly they break, which I=E2=80=99m likely to only figure out when the followup steps don=E2=80=99t work) and run it again, th= at often means that I=E2=80=99m out of time to do what I actually wanted to do. Despite that: Yes, this is a viable way. It is one of the less painful ones. Maybe avoid calling it "DEPRECATED" and instead give it a more descriptive name that does not imply that it will go away. Mercurial uses HGPLAIN=3D1 to say "I want the version which will never change established API". Best practice is to always use that in scripts =E2=80=94 and that is a stable best practice. But this is also slow to rece= ive new features. If the old way to use guix environment is intended to actually be legacy only, then it could be a way forward to also provide GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_STABLE=3D1 which gives an API that is guaranteed to never change the meaning of options again *after the change that=E2=80=99s been started to brew in 2017*. That would be a purely append-only API then, and while it would break once, it would prevent such changes for the future. For PR it might be possible to state that with this change, guix environment as a tool reaches version 0.99 (to be updated to 1.0 after sufficient testing). >> > And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially >> > with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would >> > return an error because of dependencies missing. >> >> It took me days to figure out the exact guix environment invocation that >> allows me to build the tools for a paper I=E2=80=99m still working on. I= f that >> breaks, that causes massive anxiety, because I then don=E2=80=99t know w= hether >> I=E2=80=99ll find the time to fix it before I run into deadlines. > > Do you mean add GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 at the top of your script? Yes, at every script. And remember to add it to every command I still have in history. >> > Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using >> > "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same >> > script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as >> > it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary >> > profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) >> >> The same script must always work with future versions. Otherwise the >> software is volatile. > > Here is the real argument. > > It is a point of view. I would like to ear the one of others. > If I understand well, Konrad agrees with you. > > I am fine with: the same script must always work with future versions. > > It is a strong statement and if the Guix project agrees then it must > be documented. For example in this section [1]. > > What do you think? Only if this is actually the stance of the whole Guix project. Currently this is the argument given by one person in an email discussion. I think that it is a strong and important argument (otherwise I would not have made it), but I=E2=80=99ve been wrong before. Maybe the change to Guix environment now is for the best of the project. I cannot actually see so clearly into the future that I could say whether the churn due to the breaking change or the annoyance due to suboptimal default behavior will be worse. > [1] http://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/html_node/Managing-Software-the-G= uix-Way.html#Managing-Software-the-Guix-Way > > >> You don=E2=80=99t need to be able to go back in time, but the path forwa= rd must >> be without breakage. > > Talking about Reproducible Science, going back in time is the core > issue. If one is able to go back in time and to run again the (almost) > exact same version, then the future is not the issue. The future is an issue, because you often have to use up-to-date libraries. Just imagine using a rust-tool but being stuck in a 12 months old environment that you cannot update without breakage. > Correct me if I misunderstand your point. > Today, I write a script using X tools at time T. In the future, I want > to re-run this script so all the X tools must have a path forward > without any breakage. It is your point, right? But this never happens, > there is always a breakage somewhere; and generally for good reasons. No, and that=E2=80=99s the point. That=E2=80=99s also the point of the arti= cle: There are tools which almost never break. And there are tools that almost always break. If you use a tool out of the latter group, you=E2=80=99re in for a world of pain. It=E2=80=99s why it took years and years for somewhat stable git-wrap= pers to appear: The early wrappers that made git easier to use always broke when git changed operation. Guix environment might actually help you delay the update until you have time to deal with the breakage. > Instead in this future, if I am able to restore the exact same X tools > as they were at time T, my script still works. > > Well, this is another story. This helps surviving volatility in other tools, but only if tool for doing so isn=E2=80=99t volatile itself. >> > Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix >> > environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) >> >> Yepp, but we=E2=80=99re after 1.0 now. This might have been a blocker fo= r 1.0, >> but it wasn=E2=80=99t. > > So if the version bump, it is not an issue then, isn't it? It would still be an issue, but see the part about seeing into the future above :-) >> >> Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes >> >> https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html >> > >> > "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking= about... >> >> I don=E2=80=99t think so. There=E2=80=99s the strong version where it=E2= =80=99s obvious: It >> leads people to leave a project instantly. > > Yes, me! Have a look at your reaction here. This is just the kind of reaction people feel when something into which they invested time suddenly stops working as expected. >> There=E2=80=99s the weaker version which is less obvious: That=E2=80=99s= where people >> who invested efford to follow best practices suddenly find their project >> to be written in legacy style, because the best practices changed. > > Best practise depends on a lot of parameters. I did not know it was froze= n. If you manage to freeze the best practices without blocking ways into the future, then you found part of the holy grail of software development: You managed to find one fragment that=E2=80=99s so good that it never needs to change again and everything new you do fits to it. Typically reality isn=E2=80=99t quite as beautiful and change can break your model. They say about Lisp that it=E2=80=99s a snowball: You can keep adding stuff to it and it always stays a snowball. That=E2=80=99s close to this be= auty. But Lisp is also full of car/cdr-namings and legacy you cannot shed, even though you might want to. You cannot reach-and-keep perfection in a changing world, you can only try to limit the pain for users and stay close to something which feels right. Volatile projects do not work to limit the pain. Stale projects do not try to stay close to ways that feel right in a changing reality. A good project needs to get as close as possible to a consensus (I=E2=80=99= m not saying compromise here, because that=E2=80=99s not what I mean =E2=80=94 th= e goal is something which unites both) between not being volatile and not becoming stale. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl38Jd8ACgkQE++NRSQD w+vC8g/8CTt/lgrSap1zl00qvgCOBd3OIiabwzGWWP47FW/pQhQbhQ9Pq6+qs9Rv 2e5SOcPsA208rOz5acQrrEdzlj3XjM/1WFTmDtyu8mA7ROypQktV5Djy3oTGPPiN WEScyzIAOsLI07rhineOr950JXlStuS2aN6gBUshbGThPBG4Qz+zLgBZ6F3/QPEb 2XKFMkeGS2dDBmWk/F9u4/liC6WWP7RPl1jZLUC5pxVRZvqUNnjM2TXeBmlv3ItG LzQ5LriOUrZrUVE/xLE1NjjTbLlzzn3yL5yVh8NCt6KoAc9BkOg6yjk671YHaxj2 GHFTJHXWvY+sYGAp1+YIj6c1zYPfadMmbPx3SwftLcetv7zUxk4HPVZB9FwToLsk Gw8ow1M2n5XBurufkpa2UzJ7leJSP+PH++EU0u8+hbTbpKwTNtkrlPmdPdk17lWp uzumBs33Fzbzo7nBdkM7keTsqepNusq0KlLUmLQNJCYqYtELxsPSvYguFkr6XBzd mp95vYi37V0rWLsrUW6xx8wYTz9WAYUgki2DKvD5ZuTdSO9AHCup5zTjIDdE+KV+ mgfSuKegHLa3yTUE1Z/C25GFicSyHLIU9seYs6cac8Hvv9MziD00osd8meCU+w0Q fDV1xhQ9NRrkcKGtDTnAuosBkoA7EfMDRIbJ0245tGBUr3fVK82IswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd/CXfAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIVb4D/3ZHXk97 aeV6d0bwuvAic/Rbjg08RAx2gP4IOopHI+/TWL0O7dCv1OW6jDAW5k36iAGaJhD0 6lIrUPH+LvCbpI2buacb1O0PO13BLUAVLkFoteLRMJiaiM8Juvoz/W87mNkDEsVB Ggtf5r3qKTGur+I8jnY5bavuGCEjTDKfk1Xh =VZF0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2019 02:37:32 +0100 Message-ID: <87zhfn3hgj.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:EEV/ncBLKLDkEMpXo50zYYBcDHZnniIWm4RtS5RXqJ3lc9exlMO E5LNG7t8iV/Omt7rzvsvIeNPSL/EEyKCnaaKRAzjnjLS+fnWr49EwS3OV+AO9CHS/UHXL2T CU7Ir8ruv0ErsVIIaS0ivN1NaCjEaQkSlnanQUEQEgTocXPmj+M+GnyTpK+jL9Kz72R2FxJ 5vm3IgD6qV6PJMCkAOFXg== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:JlQzMKPMkAE=:MTioK7hNa+0yyyvCQw6BaH ikWjaMpa0gsLENMif35BXje1gxqRNwfGoCp8iuESpH7Cz4tl5tBgHSjoXrdOIfhijCuNsKKW3 3/r/c4U5p+LzyCVmqMy7wqNkXFV6e0IboZJHWk+WjXvenMbqIqv2LIPzhN00/vK0cew8gaHf7 9RMxTU4YpGEkmWxsu58HDrmesVAEPRZbf23/ZDp1kckgsX/KCzjPXSc2vsb55ke2SckeWZXsM cQ9IcKyKZp8FIn+nan8ZbJfJ++GHAY+1LoXZgLEEazRUac/rWkmld/+Q6mUw1C90NqAzje1Ck TKAEjQTpbESb1xh1okHOp/d7+uQ3WtCPVRuf9IwYfGIylV02mJ8rdrSZsvthv4ZovvpGk6DxT tHPIXHlL+e3yz+hxzHD3MHMTuCO+l3LV4Sj4VEnZFCbQDeobxJRCvjlfn0YkGs2sUDU19V7Gp oaRgfyEdgBlklbpRyZUJKUBtAPzs6FKrb+SEecem7ycfQBDmLKKebUAnfN0u9v7t9/uER64Wk v7/OlVIc0kYX+2Jz88z809Ce81CtgBZHqy9lTZ4zd97XiWVuuAulJFPRA4Ltz0ZmvnYOEpWDB 2DOKW3wWNoABxv8hENNX94Htzc3E1fawBh0q4RfHu3kXivhzPhOOAV0vs0JNQU5xkuMhqFtHo +wh5wLBhvbxgTz4b/QKGDye7+Yg9ZqGQnazIEhqYqxeFjqTVpU9PtnFZAd0Ttjx5fbAqx2bjh 5A7KxPZaMxZhBij2EfwdA0EkjK2Qw3vo8m8SxtYAnqRNMnodtwtYjcE5/zuXF07MQK+x6WnhX AT9wHz+pyBaeMQeRRYYOLHuHS5TO9iFKVP1j48fji2gnnB3tIE/R7so9ENzen7sbfw6zDUEOt y5jLDqequg5h13JDcCLQPjopXm+mxVqhgEm8Xui8vDG99lWMqSou2rl0htMW5j51V3/CNa/D0 WTKKzT0xOdCL6x9nXIdsuQiRDNWpegZUaAKM+6uAwaef8b4xWTRwwBYl13zWoSY+WZ6dXVRcp XaWNaHVLepg9IhShBEtzr7Z8MaLiBtY2C/XmmkIgrh7wZJIi8NAR3aauOtPiE+e1TSWepClXh sjS756Tm8QuZmVPgScNP/QlyZ+vsjiMuzkqlDziUSP5C1B3pPDyzVnD5In/dpP4e718DSV/U2 fIwbKQk0vijm9WoPUqn2IO67JAXNRvtYjwzTmQxTjeKcNmGNbJ7TRIVz6HE/tPVhBGXP7ZQeq P7aDx7f1kcW7rReHQhPQbKWmgVJyotkhR0m/4KA== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 217.72.192.78 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > First, have you read the proposal? Yes. > Or are you (maybe a bit) "overreacting" about the backward compatibility? I don=E2=80=99t think so. I am definitely reacting strongly, but that=E2=80= =99s because breakages in Guix have already cost me the evenings of several weeks this year. But before I write anything more, I=E2=80=99d like to ask you to take a step back to breathe. We=E2=80=99re discussing a change in software. We disagree on the way forwa= rd, but I=E2=80=99m not attacking you as a person, and I hope it does not feel = that way to you. If it does: This is not my intention. Please take a moment to sigh deeply, shake your head, relax, and smile =E2=80=94 because that actually h= elps. It=E2=80=99s what I try to do when discussions get vexing. I am grateful that you=E2=80=99re taking up improvements in Guix, and there= are situations where viewpoints are different. That is OK. >> This is taking this a bit too easy. If I can no longer pull, because >> that breaks my Emacs or Gnome, then Guix is broken for me: I can no >> longer update my system without first adjusting my config. > > So you expect that we would push a patch changing "guix environment" > and in the same time break "guix pull, isn't it? No, this is an example which shows that being able to roll back does not mean that there is no problem with breaking the way forward. Using only old versions is often not an option. Just imagine running audio software from 5 years ago on a system that only provides pulseaudio (or whatever will come after it). Imagine using an old KDE DCOP-based automation workflow on a dbus-system. You need to update the libraries you use to get it working at all. >> > Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the >> > number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost >> > sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). >> >> I=E2=80=99m not so sure. Guix is already used in scientific workflows, a= nd there >> is existing third-party documentation about using `guix environment`. > > Please point me where. > It will save me time instead of reinventing the wheel. It was mentioned on this list. For the scientific workflows, see https://hpc.guix.info/ >> And can you name the people using `guix environment` by searching >> backwards in their bash history? > > So what would break? > Your workflow: spending 5 minutes to read the warning message and then pr= essing: > C-a GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRACATED=3D1 guix environment <your-complicated-in= vokation> > > (unfair and bitter; sorry!) I=E2=80=99m sorry that this makes you bitter. This is not my intention. I=E2=80=99ll answer without bitterness: The original environment does not s= pawn instantly. It takes many minutes until it is ready. If I then have to go back, find the warning (it=E2=80=99s likely that I=E2=80=99d miss it, becau= se these are things that work, and suddenly they break, which I=E2=80=99m likely to only figure out when the followup steps don=E2=80=99t work) and run it again, th= at often means that I=E2=80=99m out of time to do what I actually wanted to do. Despite that: Yes, this is a viable way. It is one of the less painful ones. Maybe avoid calling it "DEPRECATED" and instead give it a more descriptive name that does not imply that it will go away. Mercurial uses HGPLAIN=3D1 to say "I want the version which will never change established API". Best practice is to always use that in scripts =E2=80=94 and that is a stable best practice. But this is also slow to rece= ive new features. If the old way to use guix environment is intended to actually be legacy only, then it could be a way forward to also provide GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_STABLE=3D1 which gives an API that is guaranteed to never change the meaning of options again *after the change that=E2=80=99s been started to brew in 2017*. That would be a purely append-only API then, and while it would break once, it would prevent such changes for the future. For PR it might be possible to state that with this change, guix environment as a tool reaches version 0.99 (to be updated to 1.0 after sufficient testing). >> > And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially >> > with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would >> > return an error because of dependencies missing. >> >> It took me days to figure out the exact guix environment invocation that >> allows me to build the tools for a paper I=E2=80=99m still working on. I= f that >> breaks, that causes massive anxiety, because I then don=E2=80=99t know w= hether >> I=E2=80=99ll find the time to fix it before I run into deadlines. > > Do you mean add GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 at the top of your script? Yes, at every script. And remember to add it to every command I still have in history. >> > Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using >> > "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same >> > script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as >> > it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary >> > profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) >> >> The same script must always work with future versions. Otherwise the >> software is volatile. > > Here is the real argument. > > It is a point of view. I would like to ear the one of others. > If I understand well, Konrad agrees with you. > > I am fine with: the same script must always work with future versions. > > It is a strong statement and if the Guix project agrees then it must > be documented. For example in this section [1]. > > What do you think? Only if this is actually the stance of the whole Guix project. Currently this is the argument given by one person in an email discussion. I think that it is a strong and important argument (otherwise I would not have made it), but I=E2=80=99ve been wrong before. Maybe the change to Guix environment now is for the best of the project. I cannot actually see so clearly into the future that I could say whether the churn due to the breaking change or the annoyance due to suboptimal default behavior will be worse. > [1] http://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/html_node/Managing-Software-the-G= uix-Way.html#Managing-Software-the-Guix-Way > > >> You don=E2=80=99t need to be able to go back in time, but the path forwa= rd must >> be without breakage. > > Talking about Reproducible Science, going back in time is the core > issue. If one is able to go back in time and to run again the (almost) > exact same version, then the future is not the issue. The future is an issue, because you often have to use up-to-date libraries. Just imagine using a rust-tool but being stuck in a 12 months old environment that you cannot update without breakage. > Correct me if I misunderstand your point. > Today, I write a script using X tools at time T. In the future, I want > to re-run this script so all the X tools must have a path forward > without any breakage. It is your point, right? But this never happens, > there is always a breakage somewhere; and generally for good reasons. No, and that=E2=80=99s the point. That=E2=80=99s also the point of the arti= cle: There are tools which almost never break. And there are tools that almost always break. If you use a tool out of the latter group, you=E2=80=99re in for a world of pain. It=E2=80=99s why it took years and years for somewhat stable git-wrap= pers to appear: The early wrappers that made git easier to use always broke when git changed operation. Guix environment might actually help you delay the update until you have time to deal with the breakage. > Instead in this future, if I am able to restore the exact same X tools > as they were at time T, my script still works. > > Well, this is another story. This helps surviving volatility in other tools, but only if tool for doing so isn=E2=80=99t volatile itself. >> > Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix >> > environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) >> >> Yepp, but we=E2=80=99re after 1.0 now. This might have been a blocker fo= r 1.0, >> but it wasn=E2=80=99t. > > So if the version bump, it is not an issue then, isn't it? It would still be an issue, but see the part about seeing into the future above :-) >> >> Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes >> >> https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html >> > >> > "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking= about... >> >> I don=E2=80=99t think so. There=E2=80=99s the strong version where it=E2= =80=99s obvious: It >> leads people to leave a project instantly. > > Yes, me! Have a look at your reaction here. This is just the kind of reaction people feel when something into which they invested time suddenly stops working as expected. >> There=E2=80=99s the weaker version which is less obvious: That=E2=80=99s= where people >> who invested efford to follow best practices suddenly find their project >> to be written in legacy style, because the best practices changed. > > Best practise depends on a lot of parameters. I did not know it was froze= n. If you manage to freeze the best practices without blocking ways into the future, then you found part of the holy grail of software development: You managed to find one fragment that=E2=80=99s so good that it never needs to change again and everything new you do fits to it. Typically reality isn=E2=80=99t quite as beautiful and change can break your model. They say about Lisp that it=E2=80=99s a snowball: You can keep adding stuff to it and it always stays a snowball. That=E2=80=99s close to this be= auty. But Lisp is also full of car/cdr-namings and legacy you cannot shed, even though you might want to. You cannot reach-and-keep perfection in a changing world, you can only try to limit the pain for users and stay close to something which feels right. Volatile projects do not work to limit the pain. Stale projects do not try to stay close to ways that feel right in a changing reality. A good project needs to get as close as possible to a consensus (I=E2=80=99= m not saying compromise here, because that=E2=80=99s not what I mean =E2=80=94 th= e goal is something which unites both) between not being volatile and not becoming stale. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl38Jd8ACgkQE++NRSQD w+vC8g/8CTt/lgrSap1zl00qvgCOBd3OIiabwzGWWP47FW/pQhQbhQ9Pq6+qs9Rv 2e5SOcPsA208rOz5acQrrEdzlj3XjM/1WFTmDtyu8mA7ROypQktV5Djy3oTGPPiN WEScyzIAOsLI07rhineOr950JXlStuS2aN6gBUshbGThPBG4Qz+zLgBZ6F3/QPEb 2XKFMkeGS2dDBmWk/F9u4/liC6WWP7RPl1jZLUC5pxVRZvqUNnjM2TXeBmlv3ItG LzQ5LriOUrZrUVE/xLE1NjjTbLlzzn3yL5yVh8NCt6KoAc9BkOg6yjk671YHaxj2 GHFTJHXWvY+sYGAp1+YIj6c1zYPfadMmbPx3SwftLcetv7zUxk4HPVZB9FwToLsk Gw8ow1M2n5XBurufkpa2UzJ7leJSP+PH++EU0u8+hbTbpKwTNtkrlPmdPdk17lWp uzumBs33Fzbzo7nBdkM7keTsqepNusq0KlLUmLQNJCYqYtELxsPSvYguFkr6XBzd mp95vYi37V0rWLsrUW6xx8wYTz9WAYUgki2DKvD5ZuTdSO9AHCup5zTjIDdE+KV+ mgfSuKegHLa3yTUE1Z/C25GFicSyHLIU9seYs6cac8Hvv9MziD00osd8meCU+w0Q fDV1xhQ9NRrkcKGtDTnAuosBkoA7EfMDRIbJ0245tGBUr3fVK82IswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd/CXfAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIVb4D/3ZHXk97 aeV6d0bwuvAic/Rbjg08RAx2gP4IOopHI+/TWL0O7dCv1OW6jDAW5k36iAGaJhD0 6lIrUPH+LvCbpI2buacb1O0PO13BLUAVLkFoteLRMJiaiM8Juvoz/W87mNkDEsVB Ggtf5r3qKTGur+I8jnY5bavuGCEjTDKfk1Xh =VZF0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2019 22:49:16 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 17:49:16 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45701 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ii4bc-0006TX-Kv for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:49:16 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f43.google.com ([209.85.219.43]:42750) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ii4bb-0006TJ-0C for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:49:15 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f43.google.com with SMTP id dc14so2891630qvb.9 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:49:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jxzx6DzXLPth7bcITEmPguFPht9khJ5/CM7JookkBjE=; b=O3wNTVbw4zcnGKtv9qGqeptqhVtiQzt928PNR8gLb3DzRISBrTP5hoRtPn5uAlS9Q8 kxw0KvTidDpDrVbWqUt48QJkID4nxmaI+xWhOFUdPlhlRGZgpsbI6s7PAlno18QsbbcM QC9/dfOgc2XkHuLehP6zia6tDepN+Jn7KAo7K5qzD+q1ySqksHZO+uXya6ERZ32C25EF P05+HXMbqMQ74cY5/K3ewp/PAgAnFVxvx11YSKde2XJBHQUCXeIgCIkKlu0aaRKhmzQb 4NtF4orF7p7v21rJlkeATRLSgvUxBxQyOzhQMdyrHQpDFCIXu/vVuGL8J+7LVOweqni7 ISUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=jxzx6DzXLPth7bcITEmPguFPht9khJ5/CM7JookkBjE=; b=T6Em8lSGAN+GU/hXnLld726W/3l4nN7/wJyILYWGNbHRAKtj0uGaue3V5UKvk++B4w X0f5S73xxzvRkNQUSJJoboO9sZhdFt+6qdRrwWvk66SJEXTHuu+YxbK/3eZ6jfLP7Q3u NYy/kdix5+pdhfXfPAVtI6vDVF9DMfampMJrP/ELnqfJf3EqEGB2ff9X+uckVG5qJZHT rRANaYVZ22gJ0t//cfcmwsiDKeNyLTisvp6Lx3AlHC7vNwZyIgw6McbGtOZgcJXFhnW5 VAebgrfrxWj+GSQR1niVNaBVrbX4rcPPWjLRvdkByHH232LAtXzJGhO1BezzQMKHFJD6 S72g== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVsJxXJgI3AqnFHxF80N4/QbROPqbUPEy1KjFX8N1mbCAMzf//K vxE1ku+hozgRZNynPbc0RrP2Vo0RkIhZy4LCEVQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxSP8cUASZUG1+98js7iHLxqbT/pzpanZWgAvJ4Ix1I4PSd1+ilQLxlWakrYLeG4Gx/GjL10LBTxYInDBgNDJI= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:ca06:: with SMTP id c6mr9805411qvk.74.1576795749539; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:49:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <87k16snuoz.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87k16snuoz.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 23:48:58 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ0chDu8M4VNn_Xuq55gZYO+oZdLoNT0_Ly-AimKJvrCrg@HIDDEN> Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IERlcHJlY2F0aW5nIOKAmGd1aXggZW52aXJvbm1lbnTigJk/?= To: =?UTF-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 17:31, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s <ludo@HIDDEN> wrote: > The hard question then becomes: what do we call it? I vote against > abbreviations. :-) "guix shell"? Cheers, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2019 22:40:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 17:40:50 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45689 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ii4TR-0006GP-PY for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:40:50 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-f169.google.com ([209.85.160.169]:37585) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ii4TQ-0006G6-M5 for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:40:49 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-f169.google.com with SMTP id w47so6478435qtk.4 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:40:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+ehepk2484gFuhzNPQYQvKZFfi9+Nk8MzaWVxGLs3mI=; b=k2yRArazh9zTP34D+ikw5FFLkT+/1n+qBUrjqSEFmTN2lO7htoEVfJUws80q0prkVp JYRuIU7rOk30BB+rFrcDOpNBvn5wG0Pf2BS3EU5Yid4gG07KRR1kTI79lYI6K66yeW/e l1Y/ZohwCSbYRA0ID0jb1I1G8yr4Oi2LCA+KcYePeXQzmdxLo/fPqmnwttFmBCVNTHWP B9t76P4YLNiThi4BtQScJFZ49j316Gv58h2GSs3Qi/aqZVljRY4t9TGQyu0fD40dSdef 44nwjBj57xFZpzpOEoKBl67O7qEALt408Ur/4n5ogna5SFV6aswLgOn6ywFzkAlFBVQ+ heCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+ehepk2484gFuhzNPQYQvKZFfi9+Nk8MzaWVxGLs3mI=; b=EkfWEECKC34Z3WRx40oM70ia7SZmeqr53cQZiqgp1jwUNV++drUhbDAS+IEU/OphJe rU+MzHKleWu4vWZsi2MnBCOsFtmMstpNCVlju9mt45HkgiZ39OQnoCbTKf43tufhazoh +IGdp8K8bLBjqQAe3B3jke+IauwPwoMafXnW9weJloMSywQRsx0Kn5Noh8aMAFgQ/wqp PDDcNfGG7J3AQyaH8z5aSJGf3xZkOZi3jGFEdHZcNtPdsT8ZkYpAJUn1xRTd5lQNiJ+X UqXgawvcUfPIj+YvaYrv656K1zI9I+agkslYyqeK0hkzPkH+/I6KTu/FDV9sfm2ZkFlR ywKw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXQpWcCKRNEMjnRZW2RTth7hO66eb2GIAgeTMDbMQrBTvP54e4/ sNdaUzrsvU0zteFtqw0lbOCRlVPAloBQnTKEfFx7kee/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzqXdH4uVcPuDJ1vPxOYVJ1xhxJhxeF2KhqfrgwSWxM/te3yWjDeKldhV4SRwFB2bu4gQ4Km4TRytxy12cTJFA= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1016:: with SMTP id z22mr9279864qti.217.1576795243078; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:40:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 23:40:31 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Arne, First, have you read the proposal? Or are you (maybe a bit) "overreacting" about the backward compatibility? On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 22:39, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > > Guix is not a volatile software and will never be. Because it is > > rooted in time-travelling. > > The tools "guix pull --commit=3D", "guix <command> --manifest=3D", "gui= x > > time-machine" or the "--roll-back" avoid to break what is currently > > working. > > This is taking this a bit too easy. If I can no longer pull, because > that breaks my Emacs or Gnome, then Guix is broken for me: I can no > longer update my system without first adjusting my config. So you expect that we would push a patch changing "guix environment" and in the same time break "guix pull, isn't it? Otherwise I do not see your argument. > > Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the > > number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost > > sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). > > I=E2=80=99m not so sure. Guix is already used in scientific workflows, an= d there > is existing third-party documentation about using `guix environment`. Please point me where. It will save me time instead of reinventing the wheel. > And can you name the people using `guix environment` by searching > backwards in their bash history? So what would break? Your workflow: spending 5 minutes to read the warning message and then pres= sing: C-a GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRACATED=3D1 guix environment <your-complicated-invo= kation> (unfair and bitter; sorry!) > > And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially > > with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would > > return an error because of dependencies missing. > > It took me days to figure out the exact guix environment invocation that > allows me to build the tools for a paper I=E2=80=99m still working on. If= that > breaks, that causes massive anxiety, because I then don=E2=80=99t know wh= ether > I=E2=80=99ll find the time to fix it before I run into deadlines. Do you mean add GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 at the top of your script? > > Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using > > "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same > > script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as > > it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary > > profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) > > The same script must always work with future versions. Otherwise the > software is volatile. Here is the real argument. It is a point of view. I would like to ear the one of others. If I understand well, Konrad agrees with you. I am fine with: the same script must always work with future versions. It is a strong statement and if the Guix project agrees then it must be documented. For example in this section [1]. What do you think? [1] http://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/html_node/Managing-Software-the-Gui= x-Way.html#Managing-Software-the-Guix-Way > You don=E2=80=99t need to be able to go back in time, but the path forwar= d must > be without breakage. Talking about Reproducible Science, going back in time is the core issue. If one is able to go back in time and to run again the (almost) exact same version, then the future is not the issue. Correct me if I misunderstand your point. Today, I write a script using X tools at time T. In the future, I want to re-run this script so all the X tools must have a path forward without any breakage. It is your point, right? But this never happens, there is always a breakage somewhere; and generally for good reasons. Instead in this future, if I am able to restore the exact same X tools as they were at time T, my script still works. Well, this is another story. > > Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix > > environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) > > Yepp, but we=E2=80=99re after 1.0 now. This might have been a blocker for= 1.0, > but it wasn=E2=80=99t. So if the version bump, it is not an issue then, isn't it? > >> Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes > >> https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html > > > > "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking = about... > > I don=E2=80=99t think so. There=E2=80=99s the strong version where it=E2= =80=99s obvious: It > leads people to leave a project instantly. Yes, me! > There=E2=80=99s the weaker version which is less obvious: That=E2=80=99s = where people > who invested efford to follow best practices suddenly find their project > to be written in legacy style, because the best practices changed. Best practise depends on a lot of parameters. I did not know it was frozen. Well, I withdraw my investment. I am not interested anymore to not tell that I am traumatized. Regards, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2019 22:40:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 17:40:52 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45691 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ii4TU-0006Ga-9U for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:40:52 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:52501) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ii4TR-0006GJ-8J for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:40:49 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38188) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ii4TP-0006Pm-DQ for bug-guix@HIDDEN; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:40:49 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,FREEMAIL_FROM, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ii4TN-0007FK-5E for bug-guix@HIDDEN; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:40:47 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-x835.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::835]:39275) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ii4TM-0007CO-3Y; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:40:44 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-x835.google.com with SMTP id e5so6480098qtm.6; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:40:43 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+ehepk2484gFuhzNPQYQvKZFfi9+Nk8MzaWVxGLs3mI=; b=k2yRArazh9zTP34D+ikw5FFLkT+/1n+qBUrjqSEFmTN2lO7htoEVfJUws80q0prkVp JYRuIU7rOk30BB+rFrcDOpNBvn5wG0Pf2BS3EU5Yid4gG07KRR1kTI79lYI6K66yeW/e l1Y/ZohwCSbYRA0ID0jb1I1G8yr4Oi2LCA+KcYePeXQzmdxLo/fPqmnwttFmBCVNTHWP B9t76P4YLNiThi4BtQScJFZ49j316Gv58h2GSs3Qi/aqZVljRY4t9TGQyu0fD40dSdef 44nwjBj57xFZpzpOEoKBl67O7qEALt408Ur/4n5ogna5SFV6aswLgOn6ywFzkAlFBVQ+ heCQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+ehepk2484gFuhzNPQYQvKZFfi9+Nk8MzaWVxGLs3mI=; b=jdGFCW/1EgucNNpIrX0sRfTg0HsPyDvZ1dxKPUY/SzaRsDlPCw1a4xaWBNlE/8KPWK 0LGtGiMkCZgV3/5hwuDfrHH6TwILock4nZjL0O1cowPNBR4dx59wgooP+id69QUE+qD3 X9bCNa6TrYqrEDIq258/MelKN4VQ1RxfT3aV6X88d1+rj4J/TwIQgLOn1et4ug/nCiwf 2Hw/PZbsyJGO9nn+AnQf/BQDZStu/RjqypFG90brEp2oKZ4jBFANYZPKztPmfByktctd oUEqwT3tg9prtqoRKbUjWtL2Nx0oov7aOXh5Eo5W/YK0PuPTMjoBX8FgF0mPbqHsm4HG nkAg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWb1msLEuQdlaJ2iZGfiZ1FgbjLWopZ4IfUfigy6qjnsdxpk3iU zQYbtjBEo4y7JqwhLKjtNb/W9sWbPrMpBYO/jRE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzqXdH4uVcPuDJ1vPxOYVJ1xhxJhxeF2KhqfrgwSWxM/te3yWjDeKldhV4SRwFB2bu4gQ4Km4TRytxy12cTJFA= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:1016:: with SMTP id z22mr9279864qti.217.1576795243078; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 14:40:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 23:40:31 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ3gwpjy2cgRj1iOtPX0cTSVBLoxSVaUBxnMEsMCVNUyFg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::835 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hi Arne, First, have you read the proposal? Or are you (maybe a bit) "overreacting" about the backward compatibility? On Thu, 19 Dec 2019 at 22:39, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: > > Guix is not a volatile software and will never be. Because it is > > rooted in time-travelling. > > The tools "guix pull --commit=3D", "guix <command> --manifest=3D", "gui= x > > time-machine" or the "--roll-back" avoid to break what is currently > > working. > > This is taking this a bit too easy. If I can no longer pull, because > that breaks my Emacs or Gnome, then Guix is broken for me: I can no > longer update my system without first adjusting my config. So you expect that we would push a patch changing "guix environment" and in the same time break "guix pull, isn't it? Otherwise I do not see your argument. > > Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the > > number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost > > sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). > > I=E2=80=99m not so sure. Guix is already used in scientific workflows, an= d there > is existing third-party documentation about using `guix environment`. Please point me where. It will save me time instead of reinventing the wheel. > And can you name the people using `guix environment` by searching > backwards in their bash history? So what would break? Your workflow: spending 5 minutes to read the warning message and then pres= sing: C-a GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRACATED=3D1 guix environment <your-complicated-invo= kation> (unfair and bitter; sorry!) > > And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially > > with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would > > return an error because of dependencies missing. > > It took me days to figure out the exact guix environment invocation that > allows me to build the tools for a paper I=E2=80=99m still working on. If= that > breaks, that causes massive anxiety, because I then don=E2=80=99t know wh= ether > I=E2=80=99ll find the time to fix it before I run into deadlines. Do you mean add GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 at the top of your script? > > Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using > > "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same > > script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as > > it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary > > profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) > > The same script must always work with future versions. Otherwise the > software is volatile. Here is the real argument. It is a point of view. I would like to ear the one of others. If I understand well, Konrad agrees with you. I am fine with: the same script must always work with future versions. It is a strong statement and if the Guix project agrees then it must be documented. For example in this section [1]. What do you think? [1] http://guix.gnu.org/manual/devel/en/html_node/Managing-Software-the-Gui= x-Way.html#Managing-Software-the-Guix-Way > You don=E2=80=99t need to be able to go back in time, but the path forwar= d must > be without breakage. Talking about Reproducible Science, going back in time is the core issue. If one is able to go back in time and to run again the (almost) exact same version, then the future is not the issue. Correct me if I misunderstand your point. Today, I write a script using X tools at time T. In the future, I want to re-run this script so all the X tools must have a path forward without any breakage. It is your point, right? But this never happens, there is always a breakage somewhere; and generally for good reasons. Instead in this future, if I am able to restore the exact same X tools as they were at time T, my script still works. Well, this is another story. > > Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix > > environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) > > Yepp, but we=E2=80=99re after 1.0 now. This might have been a blocker for= 1.0, > but it wasn=E2=80=99t. So if the version bump, it is not an issue then, isn't it? > >> Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes > >> https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html > > > > "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking = about... > > I don=E2=80=99t think so. There=E2=80=99s the strong version where it=E2= =80=99s obvious: It > leads people to leave a project instantly. Yes, me! > There=E2=80=99s the weaker version which is less obvious: That=E2=80=99s = where people > who invested efford to follow best practices suddenly find their project > to be written in legacy style, because the best practices changed. Best practise depends on a lot of parameters. I did not know it was frozen. Well, I withdraw my investment. I am not interested anymore to not tell that I am traumatized. Regards, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2019 21:39:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 16:39:27 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45614 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ii3W3-0004jH-0D for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:39:27 -0500 Received: from mout.web.de ([212.227.17.11]:51851) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <arne_bab@HIDDEN>) id 1ii3W0-0004j4-Ff for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 16:39:25 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=web.de; s=dbaedf251592; t=1576791557; bh=N3U9uNOsNmyB0nXVK5/O8PmrMQoLcvt4g7XEpf3LjL4=; h=X-UI-Sender-Class:References:From:To:Cc:Subject:In-reply-to:Date; b=DRt+SJacF+yk3XjMvx3oIerh3J6Td+X738IdXHgPo6pqbvdKEEcwrB4QnnrK0bNow 6hrsuFeYcJcD+5grw9ojIyX5HIOSrxLaOxMDXH9E9HkXqjPEzPQ2y6nR2fsU7L+Pii LLuEumbAVx3jnpOGHpk+/CjZLz5WcSPsL78FCHyg= X-UI-Sender-Class: c548c8c5-30a9-4db5-a2e7-cb6cb037b8f9 Received: from fluss ([84.165.17.138]) by smtp.web.de (mrweb102 [213.165.67.124]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 0MVcdn-1iBEWw0C5P-00Yxlz; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 22:39:17 +0100 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> User-agent: mu4e 1.2.0; emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 22:39:13 +0100 Message-ID: <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi zimoun, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: >> Should Guix be volatile software? >> http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/ > > Guix is not a volatile software and will never be. Because it is > rooted in time-travelling. > The tools "guix pull --commit=3D", "guix <command> --manifest=3D", "guix > time-machine" or the "--roll-back" avoid to break what is currently > working. This is taking this a bit too easy. If I can no longer pull, because that breaks my Emacs or Gnome, then Guix is broken for me: I can no longer update my system without first adjusting my config. > Number of people Time it takes each person > using that part of X to figure out what changed > the program and how to fix it > > Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the > number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost > sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). I=E2=80=99m not so sure. Guix is already used in scientific workflows, and = there is existing third-party documentation about using `guix environment`. And can you name the people using `guix environment` by searching backwards in their bash history? > And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially > with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would > return an error because of dependencies missing. It took me days to figure out the exact guix environment invocation that allows me to build the tools for a paper I=E2=80=99m still working on. If t= hat breaks, that causes massive anxiety, because I then don=E2=80=99t know whet= her I=E2=80=99ll find the time to fix it before I run into deadlines. > Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using > "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same > script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as > it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary > profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) The same script must always work with future versions. Otherwise the software is volatile. You don=E2=80=99t need to be able to go back in time, but the path forward = must be without breakage. > Then, the section "The Tradeoff" advices "from newmodule import > new_foo as foo" and IMO it is what the plan proposes with the variable > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED (tricky point #4). No, that=E2=80=99s the opposite: from newmodule import new_foo as foo means, that you allow users to define an environment variable called `GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_MODERN`. > Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix > environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) Yepp, but we=E2=80=99re after 1.0 now. This might have been a blocker for 1= .0, but it wasn=E2=80=99t. >> Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes >> https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html > > "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking ab= out... I don=E2=80=99t think so. There=E2=80=99s the strong version where it=E2=80= =99s obvious: It leads people to leave a project instantly. There=E2=80=99s the weaker version which is less obvious: That=E2=80=99s wh= ere people who invested efford to follow best practices suddenly find their project to be written in legacy style, because the best practices changed. > Well, at the end, what is explicitly your personal opinion? > a. Change the behaviour of "guix environment" using the proposed plan? > or > b. Add a new command? Which one? "guix shell", "guix env" or "guix > <you-name-it>"? I would opt for b. And then for changing guix to give the most common commands when called without argument (as `guix`) =E2=80=94 excluding guix environment. That would not avoid the slow version of traumatic changes, but if guix environment would keep working and both guix env/guix shell/=E2=80=A6 = and guix environment used the same backend (just with different options), then they would be minimized, because guix environment would not become a second-class citizen. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl377gMACgkQE++NRSQD w+tujBAAxS1DE0VL+KlggoUcM1PXzAVqmznzZOn3/M24/n2tCWCiK7QfXBOCK3dt QXSYpoozIV2ZHdjc8UpM6Y+xwr+WnJrQsvQAIKOwDT7Dzxa4RHsNV9PmFHOxyJFM as7t4XxYfXJrp48n6baF/xywvrMcWe0L2F8x1e2PF0SXrHKMwb+cg+k0pE0H+02z 5n1fd4O6VetyPa3U0XQGcmMqqxDaPY7kfXCA+daqry4/T/F6xli0T9NOBK1C/a4I IQP+YenYlyzKKXTCiZ+0mm6/vx+hGQzvkmGPDYsFsUTvz10dGLEBDoZOTHECcWVN guYEHNDpItMrt/JueN4x7MXwV6eclviaIo8rHMIg1UO4F81KjRwN2Ejr4T46+utX 6uvE0k5QPH6Ol01sHDBvfNvC/XztGgN0BJtmsMn5CtbhQx1BWHbNrNVbJIY4Fzev 5fBwB7psKG4yDpb58xtgs84PbN5gAK3jW31brOGrTprYpPoQQxxIluXd02vk7j6T /qNroGg3H3W1Q4hHEPCBdtJVAF2lAylCDraPo9eU4j/+odrQDMqB2ISfGbO69xQe LVMvM0UaGVuf4LJfk0rED4eppm9sib0KjgE5Fdy3W9ur/hS94WIBO6XqC6w/35UG WP9wMGDZGWY+donOfO3JZWSmzbjncsUhHJ32bXm6FlN/MWvkM8eIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd++4DAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIPHAD/0ozQwSH Xe6qMlZHPs8FDOqXxcX+3onf+Kir9UVQuxUl+jnJTh5FL9vlWvdRb5yk7vKXnY7D 2eZ5x68w3Y4sdl9hma+CiFit+M4H5vKQhOGpNTgKHllnVGJ5DFM96V8b4TZR9J3r vr49IjXgbsWP6X+KCE2rULP+YjjzmiCcJIk7 =pDkB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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emacs 26.1 From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-reply-to: <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 22:39:13 +0100 Message-ID: <871rt03shq.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:JfifoonhvfdwLLBS00M57V+RXyAvKT7cNzpyhuonq6ADveu28LI grENkCU7iDca3blFZ8wAknCHd5KornKxNDlPSQaDGqbfHiMDn4M1L+2VA7I6qANL7dpV95i VA0zMbfbTpzKuKtBwriU7m+7deRFeZxfBTmvUh3bSXeKrSAey+RxSDdHIRH9/aFNAOfX+ii 475Y5uAELg4k1gQedA/LA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:qbzDh18zGjw=:dafAQ5kgc7nFnoH47fxe29 c2ahPJ80LZ9PAMutNASf1zh+1gtlK9gVXnmNK8dZ4vHxF6pz02ZvRRc16nt2eHBgZ8/siH96E WVr6o8bhhF3/49/z0auwISiQiypQ+2iFJaJpvoOfC9oyO0xEK3bEUN9wLilSJJZCWC9CzQMEH t3qDIsK2SC13U38ApezLOkCozeYJqlNDjQ0/9J3BC2/TK4GpGqcw3aUPUHdoAjOPF8VlF0Mem sfOsjgUNMIc8SEiE5q28HEBtsxj0O6u5X15b09SC6tZogTIDQ1ZsRi1aRRFFFer9E34gJ+TWa C1eGu+rkRAJYQjBZIjniutdEW2CNJVsSENHWeSD4H1YbxrIi6WiZmcBKod3tmDYSz8L6Ayst9 +s1U6wdZuNr5gQMygKE4cCLcvb7pOVerrFg6vnIsGugt6Ob/yIyv8FLQFfa+DI8/paHEIvD9B ragoxZpF8y63nTeeaPR0nqIseXdutnTUp5xfve3j+/RnxUW3T/eS2q57WH1Zn+Z0MS1ImnpuZ bPL6zjKwLClQi8oK0s5lro5dSq2Zy0npeweog0j0PFBr0YBLyFYx0xPsviJbkzpQq+ATdi1WZ Z/T1dDW7mw4wjFKD6uCflJ5UY3LxI2QD1BfZ6rBR8vw4Iys8H7hCNgWXZVw39grEy7vbDWSyJ xs/uAl3mRGP41LO2LF74pV3y/cWHauZdewA9+SKRTNgsfLVZKZXE97Xlooj60Tx76wsdh9mI3 EP8rYoFdXnq86Zl+1W5i8oUAdrF72H7+F2I/ceNlYFMfEBq5E8Dfn8MexQ5nPmcmPfCzfNR5O BHrXUg9Cew5tcNpJuYvr95ZqDPjBPF/KvWuoaxt2zJxDoxzNrSWy+1DgHEGgNG7DDKd5herM/ iGJAgnBSyGOO20n7Rh3GCNRRuhYRWSxUVUd5TEYW2g5VWBR8Hc5AFQCrckQlEhOd3QzJQZGEh +hm+5fkKmSSIRSDnB738PYrZ9iIDVoVtJN4POPh8rDggI9PNNxovd/7FR2gRbKsO6KlJCZGUM Hdpt9FByFjlyhBucdceENE6FWKNipNqhAiXHqEO0TRXmzlye4LyMT6uX/bjJujy4WpLLKrSDg E1bngCT1aN30ZEIjyrdr0u0wZw5nMNWXbN8Vh6E7OfU2HxBmms7YAOs7VwKJT2ESp62zs9yyS awi1Z2+haAF1jguEEHDDyuR61Gygfn977VHXmYylmcRe9WxR2+Pgf6pX/PVFsgRN/3HVSTxKm u8VkhiSp6BApB+moMdnaCeT+rCg8leUuZTrHk1w== X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 212.227.17.11 X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.4 (--) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi zimoun, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> writes: >> Should Guix be volatile software? >> http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/ > > Guix is not a volatile software and will never be. Because it is > rooted in time-travelling. > The tools "guix pull --commit=3D", "guix <command> --manifest=3D", "guix > time-machine" or the "--roll-back" avoid to break what is currently > working. This is taking this a bit too easy. If I can no longer pull, because that breaks my Emacs or Gnome, then Guix is broken for me: I can no longer update my system without first adjusting my config. > Number of people Time it takes each person > using that part of X to figure out what changed > the program and how to fix it > > Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the > number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost > sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). I=E2=80=99m not so sure. Guix is already used in scientific workflows, and = there is existing third-party documentation about using `guix environment`. And can you name the people using `guix environment` by searching backwards in their bash history? > And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially > with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would > return an error because of dependencies missing. It took me days to figure out the exact guix environment invocation that allows me to build the tools for a paper I=E2=80=99m still working on. If t= hat breaks, that causes massive anxiety, because I then don=E2=80=99t know whet= her I=E2=80=99ll find the time to fix it before I run into deadlines. > Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using > "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same > script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as > it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary > profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) The same script must always work with future versions. Otherwise the software is volatile. You don=E2=80=99t need to be able to go back in time, but the path forward = must be without breakage. > Then, the section "The Tradeoff" advices "from newmodule import > new_foo as foo" and IMO it is what the plan proposes with the variable > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED (tricky point #4). No, that=E2=80=99s the opposite: from newmodule import new_foo as foo means, that you allow users to define an environment variable called `GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_MODERN`. > Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix > environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) Yepp, but we=E2=80=99re after 1.0 now. This might have been a blocker for 1= .0, but it wasn=E2=80=99t. >> Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes >> https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html > > "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking ab= out... I don=E2=80=99t think so. There=E2=80=99s the strong version where it=E2=80= =99s obvious: It leads people to leave a project instantly. There=E2=80=99s the weaker version which is less obvious: That=E2=80=99s wh= ere people who invested efford to follow best practices suddenly find their project to be written in legacy style, because the best practices changed. > Well, at the end, what is explicitly your personal opinion? > a. Change the behaviour of "guix environment" using the proposed plan? > or > b. Add a new command? Which one? "guix shell", "guix env" or "guix > <you-name-it>"? I would opt for b. And then for changing guix to give the most common commands when called without argument (as `guix`) =E2=80=94 excluding guix environment. That would not avoid the slow version of traumatic changes, but if guix environment would keep working and both guix env/guix shell/=E2=80=A6 = and guix environment used the same backend (just with different options), then they would be minimized, because guix environment would not become a second-class citizen. Best wishes, Arne =2D- Unpolitisch sein hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein ohne es zu merken --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE801qEjXQSQPNItXAE++NRSQDw+sFAl377gMACgkQE++NRSQD w+tujBAAxS1DE0VL+KlggoUcM1PXzAVqmznzZOn3/M24/n2tCWCiK7QfXBOCK3dt QXSYpoozIV2ZHdjc8UpM6Y+xwr+WnJrQsvQAIKOwDT7Dzxa4RHsNV9PmFHOxyJFM as7t4XxYfXJrp48n6baF/xywvrMcWe0L2F8x1e2PF0SXrHKMwb+cg+k0pE0H+02z 5n1fd4O6VetyPa3U0XQGcmMqqxDaPY7kfXCA+daqry4/T/F6xli0T9NOBK1C/a4I IQP+YenYlyzKKXTCiZ+0mm6/vx+hGQzvkmGPDYsFsUTvz10dGLEBDoZOTHECcWVN guYEHNDpItMrt/JueN4x7MXwV6eclviaIo8rHMIg1UO4F81KjRwN2Ejr4T46+utX 6uvE0k5QPH6Ol01sHDBvfNvC/XztGgN0BJtmsMn5CtbhQx1BWHbNrNVbJIY4Fzev 5fBwB7psKG4yDpb58xtgs84PbN5gAK3jW31brOGrTprYpPoQQxxIluXd02vk7j6T /qNroGg3H3W1Q4hHEPCBdtJVAF2lAylCDraPo9eU4j/+odrQDMqB2ISfGbO69xQe LVMvM0UaGVuf4LJfk0rED4eppm9sib0KjgE5Fdy3W9ur/hS94WIBO6XqC6w/35UG WP9wMGDZGWY+donOfO3JZWSmzbjncsUhHJ32bXm6FlN/MWvkM8eIswQBAQgAHRYh BN0ovebZh1yrzkqLHdzPDbMLwQVIBQJd++4DAAoJENzPDbMLwQVIPHAD/0ozQwSH Xe6qMlZHPs8FDOqXxcX+3onf+Kir9UVQuxUl+jnJTh5FL9vlWvdRb5yk7vKXnY7D 2eZ5x68w3Y4sdl9hma+CiFit+M4H5vKQhOGpNTgKHllnVGJ5DFM96V8b4TZR9J3r vr49IjXgbsWP6X+KCE2rULP+YjjzmiCcJIk7 =pDkB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2019 16:31:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 11:31:34 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45452 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ihyi5-0005eS-SX for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 11:31:34 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35182) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ihyi5-0005eD-0G for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 11:31:33 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:36142) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ihyhy-0007oa-F1; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 11:31:27 -0500 Received: from [2001:660:6102:320:e120:2c8f:8909:cdfe] (port=44774 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1ihyhx-0006WV-Sb; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 11:31:26 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Subject: Deprecating =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=98guix_environment=E2=80=99=3F?= References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 29 Frimaire an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 17:31:24 +0100 In-Reply-To: <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> (Konrad Hinsen's message of "Tue, 17 Dec 2019 07:49:21 +0100") Message-ID: <87k16snuoz.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: guix-devel@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hi Konrad, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> skribis: > On 16/12/2019 23:09, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: >> So in a more algorithmic manner: >>> 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail >>> hard. (With an error like incompatible options present) >>> 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, >>> we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you >>> described) >>> 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. >>> 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then >>> a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, >>> b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the >>> new behaviour. >> That sounds like a good plan to me. >> >> #4 is the trickiest, and I think it=E2=80=99d be good to give users a bi= t of >> time so they can start adjusting before deprecation is in effect. > > #4 is trickiest for another reason: there is no future-proof use of > "guix environment" that works right now and will continue to work. Nor > is there any way to see, when looking at a command line, whether it's > old-style or new-style, if neither --ad-hoc nor --inputs-of are > present. This means that all existing documentation (tutorials etc.) > will become misleading in the future. Worse, even documentation > written today, in full awareness of a coming change, can't do better > than saying "watch out, this will do something else in the future". > > The first rule of backwards-compatibility is: never change the meaning > of an existing valid command/API. Add new valid syntax, deprecate old > valid syntax, but don't change the meaning of something that was and > will be valid. Yeah. Clearly there=E2=80=99s a tension between that and keeping Guix open to cha= nges. > How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" and > introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour? That has the advantage of avoiding the problem you mention altogether while also allowing for further changes. The hard question then becomes: what do we call it? I vote against abbreviations. :-) Also, what other goals would we set for that command? How would we frame it in the set of commands? Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Dec 2019 11:30:33 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 19 06:30:33 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:44325 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ihu0n-0002Qx-6a for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 06:30:33 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f53.google.com ([209.85.219.53]:45367) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ihu0l-0002Qd-40 for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 06:30:31 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f53.google.com with SMTP id l14so2056798qvu.12 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 03:30:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sBxHxU3hrgyhV7XSTBtBf2RDjbLtRVFIElMqxwkOG1A=; b=MbVuaJtEVYJDhZY904Bf6EN5KTUqbRKlc7PUZey/Q9cCWsX0KXdnqLPQCH6zzxEqRd hpuA4vknGHw+lIi5JjgLDouBRCoIovHLlaS149/PZ27Kh8tp47rKmf0YKgCPhGKTAudL JjNofbgDii6EWq6MIjEKBeuRZEcE5GT4wRh9hxK2/ooP7G1+YxyBkIE+Y3SdzY8TS8eS 0BCEGb/breFwWCFndqok2jXEuaXfg7jMCUZwCw17O/BWq884PJ6UKc+enNdyDA2dwHhX 1GvwdreVkXaLeHTLU8uzfAqXlPC1/OYKC2T4DIHXXLUY0DqjTcj9bENq1lD1fepVt/wu kA3Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=sBxHxU3hrgyhV7XSTBtBf2RDjbLtRVFIElMqxwkOG1A=; b=X7v966PPzItnALH3C3aV5JJfYylgWTgqiFqETz5Vw3B0Nu6y5wml5K8j4ucmVy+lqt Gthu3gbaDLy5VmV7Kg7S0HE0enxjTUCPokuiAAmMVe/B8xvW964YTS+yvqKDwf1dj0Hp 5J/SRsAKgUY9SHl4RJXlk1viqucqfcYc/YiGk1Z3FVh/zFmqWwuNa54td2D0+s41PYdC iqMh3P2moT8X66aqDs060fGYglpufY75GeMH7QMZi9jmkkjlNCDKaxOtMHt3ada9RCGT hwH5D/Uqh/9ni3Ts52DklwzOT9pyZQDCU8yp14iOd/il6CIVa4mVR/ETADP9jjiD1XHO ksOA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXvAs5QGCJJuvU8usfcyvOanyqe8tpZc4UAkHVzBpFjYh7X1T2M JcZRpchjnD7NicdMFCzK2apxYojf0zVcTv1XSw4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwF9jHV+vrPjXo7cDy9BY+3bab9G7jpTf1wnPXB0skk1pX9u7pUQKSY+DXf91iI/K7qi1cGpI5FCidV6vPh4SY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:3a1:: with SMTP id m1mr6790436qvy.77.1576755025485; Thu, 19 Dec 2019 03:30:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87zhfp2w11.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2019 12:30:14 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ3bHnOzOk2Cdtvh_NZbYGDfA+zzxrAsJk+7=gRYHaL7jw@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Arne, Thank you for the pointers. On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 21:55, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something > >> else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in > >> the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>". > > > > Concrete example: I am writing a tutorial about using Guix for > > reproducible research. It shows several uses of "guix environment", som= e > > of them without '=E2=80=93add-hoc' or '=E2=80=93inputs-of'. I know my e= xamples will > > cease to work in a few months. What am I supposed to do about this? > > This is the point where we need to ask ourselves: > > Should Guix be volatile software? > http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/ Guix is not a volatile software and will never be. Because it is rooted in time-travelling. The tools "guix pull --commit=3D", "guix <command> --manifest=3D", "guix time-machine" or the "--roll-back" avoid to break what is currently working. Well, the section "The situation" just cannot(*) happen with Guix. That's why Guix is awesome! ;-) (*) well if one correctly uses Guix which is another story ;-) and it is not perfect yet... see all the discussion about manifest. :-) Now, let recall the formula (already discussed in this thread :-)) Number of people Time it takes each person using that part of X to figure out what changed the program and how to fix it Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would return an error because of dependencies missing. Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) Then, the section "The Tradeoff" advices "from newmodule import new_foo as foo" and IMO it is what the plan proposes with the variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED (tricky point #4). Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2017-08/msg00300.html As I said, I am not convinced by the argument: everything would be broken, too much time to fix the break, etc. and this proposal would lead to disaster for the end-user. But it is my opinion based on my restricted personal experience. > Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes > https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking abou= t... Well, at the end, what is explicitly your personal opinion? a. Change the behaviour of "guix environment" using the proposed plan? or b. Add a new command? Which one? "guix shell", "guix env" or "guix <you-name-it>"? All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f35 X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, bug-guix@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) Hi Arne, Thank you for the pointers. On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 21:55, Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN> wrote= : > Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> writes: > >> Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something > >> else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in > >> the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>". > > > > Concrete example: I am writing a tutorial about using Guix for > > reproducible research. It shows several uses of "guix environment", som= e > > of them without '=E2=80=93add-hoc' or '=E2=80=93inputs-of'. I know my e= xamples will > > cease to work in a few months. What am I supposed to do about this? > > This is the point where we need to ask ourselves: > > Should Guix be volatile software? > http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/ Guix is not a volatile software and will never be. Because it is rooted in time-travelling. The tools "guix pull --commit=3D", "guix <command> --manifest=3D", "guix time-machine" or the "--roll-back" avoid to break what is currently working. Well, the section "The situation" just cannot(*) happen with Guix. That's why Guix is awesome! ;-) (*) well if one correctly uses Guix which is another story ;-) and it is not perfect yet... see all the discussion about manifest. :-) Now, let recall the formula (already discussed in this thread :-)) Number of people Time it takes each person using that part of X to figure out what changed the program and how to fix it Hum? I am not convinced that the cost would be high... Because 1. the number of people using Guix is not so high (yet!), so 2. I am almost sure we can name the people using "guix environment" in scripts ;-). And 3. the time to figure out what changed is really low -- especially with warnings and hints -- and "guix environment foo -- make" would return an error because of dependencies missing. Other said, I do not see myself use-cases where the scripts using "guix environment" need to be robust for time-travelling -- the same script used with current, past and future Guix versions -- because as it was said elsewhere: "environment" can be seen like "temporary profile". And temporary means... well temporary. ;-) Then, the section "The Tradeoff" advices "from newmodule import new_foo as foo" and IMO it is what the plan proposes with the variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED (tricky point #4). Last, "volatile" vs "stable" is mitigated by "The future of 'guix environment'" [1] which really predates the 1.0. ;-) [1] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2017-08/msg00300.html As I said, I am not convinced by the argument: everything would be broken, too much time to fix the break, etc. and this proposal would lead to disaster for the end-user. But it is my opinion based on my restricted personal experience. > Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes > https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html "Traumatic changes"? Maybe a bit extreme for the change we are talking abou= t... Well, at the end, what is explicitly your personal opinion? a. Change the behaviour of "guix environment" using the proposed plan? or b. Add a new command? Which one? "guix shell", "guix env" or "guix <you-name-it>"? All the best, simon
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From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN>
To: bug-guix@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment
proposed deprecation mechanism
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--=-=-=
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Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> writes:
> Hi Simon,
>
>> Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something
>> else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in
>> the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>".
>
> Concrete example: I am writing a tutorial about using Guix for
> reproducible research. It shows several uses of "guix environment", some
> of them without '=E2=80=93add-hoc' or '=E2=80=93inputs-of'. I know my exa=
mples will
> cease to work in a few months. What am I supposed to do about this?
This is the point where we need to ask ourselves:
Should Guix be volatile software?
http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/
Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes
https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html
Best wishes,
Arne
=2D-
Unpolitisch sein
hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein
ohne es zu merken
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From: Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@HIDDEN>
To: bug-guix@HIDDEN
Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment
proposed deprecation mechanism
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Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 21:55:54 +0100
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--=-=-=
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Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> writes:
> Hi Simon,
>
>> Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something
>> else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in
>> the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>".
>
> Concrete example: I am writing a tutorial about using Guix for
> reproducible research. It shows several uses of "guix environment", some
> of them without '=E2=80=93add-hoc' or '=E2=80=93inputs-of'. I know my exa=
mples will
> cease to work in a few months. What am I supposed to do about this?
This is the point where we need to ask ourselves:
Should Guix be volatile software?
http://stevelosh.com/blog/2012/04/volatile-software/
Also: Software developers should avoid traumatic changes
https://drewdevault.com/2019/11/26/Avoid-traumatic-changes.html
Best wishes,
Arne
=2D-
Unpolitisch sein
hei=C3=9Ft politisch sein
ohne es zu merken
--=-=-=
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From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 14:09:35 +0100
Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ3zSS0Rbnu5eLhpYHPvSY1emaj=-estQcjRwiJ3=4RMMA@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment
proposed deprecation mechanism
To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN>
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Hi Konrad,
On Wed, 18 Dec 2019 at 10:43, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> wr=
ote:
>
> Hi Simon,
>
> > Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something
> > else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in
> > the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>".
>
> Concrete example: I am writing a tutorial about using Guix for
> reproducible research. It shows several uses of "guix environment", some
> of them without '=E2=80=93add-hoc' or '=E2=80=93inputs-of'. I know my exa=
mples will
> cease to work in a few months. What am I supposed to do about this?
Assuming "guix environment" would stay and following the proposed
plan, you would need to add GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 on the top
of your script. In this would not be a problem for travelling back in
time.
> > First, I am not convinced that there is not so much scripts that will
> > be broken. And second, I am not convinced neither that these very
> > scripts need time-traveling.
>
> Perhaps it's just me, but I use "guix environment" quite a lot in
> scripts, in order to make them more reproducible. Here's a simple
> example:
>
> #!/usr/bin/env bash
> guix environment --container --ad-hoc gcc-toolchain <<EOF
> gcc pi.c -o pi
> ./pi
> EOF
With the proposed plan, this would stay the same. Even, the --ad-hoc
option could stay forever for backward compatibility.
The only issue is for example:
#!/usr/bin/env bash
guix environment --container gmsh <<EOF
mkdir build
cd build
cmake ..
make
./bin/gmsh
EOF
And I not convinced that this kind of scripts need to be robust for
time-travelling, I mean it is easy to correct adding the --inputs-of
option or set the GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED variable.
> > Yes, it is probably the most adequate to do. But it is sad to loose
> > the good name "guix environment"... and we know that naming is hard.
> > ;-)
>
> I definitely agree. As a lesson for the future, maybe we should use
> not-so-nice names for new commands during a kind of beta-testing phase.
What do you think about "guix shell" for the new "guix environment" behavio=
ur?
What the others think?
New name (easier) vs transitional plan (trickier)?
And new names proposal:
- guix env
- guix shell
?
All the best,
simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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Wed, 18 Dec 2019 04:43:47 -0500 (EST) From: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-Reply-To: <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2019 10:43:46 +0100 Message-ID: <m1pngmrmst.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) Hi Simon, > Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something > else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in > the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>". Concrete example: I am writing a tutorial about using Guix for reproducible research. It shows several uses of "guix environment", some of them without '=E2=80=93add-hoc' or '=E2=80=93inputs-of'. I know my examp= les will cease to work in a few months. What am I supposed to do about this? > First, I am not convinced that there is not so much scripts that will > be broken. And second, I am not convinced neither that these very > scripts need time-traveling. Perhaps it's just me, but I use "guix environment" quite a lot in scripts, in order to make them more reproducible. Here's a simple example: #!/usr/bin/env bash guix environment --container --ad-hoc gcc-toolchain <<EOF gcc pi.c -o pi ./pi EOF =20 >> The first rule of backwards-compatibility is: never change the meaning >> of an existing valid command/API. Add new valid syntax, deprecate old >> valid syntax, but don't change the meaning of something that was and >> will be valid. > > I agree on the rule. > But it is mitigated but the number of users and the popularity of the too= l. ;-) Indeed! > Yes, it is probably the most adequate to do. But it is sad to loose > the good name "guix environment"... and we know that naming is hard. > ;-) I definitely agree. As a lesson for the future, maybe we should use not-so-nice names for new commands during a kind of beta-testing phase. Cheers, Konrad
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2019 23:21:40 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 18:21:40 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42510 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ihM9s-0007Kb-1R for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 18:21:40 -0500 Received: from imta-37.everyone.net ([216.200.145.37]:37228 helo=imta-38.everyone.net) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <bokr@HIDDEN>) id 1ihM9q-0007KR-4S for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 18:21:39 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by imta-38.everyone.net (8.16.0.27/8.16.0.27) with SMTP id xBHN6Ydi020999; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:21:36 -0800 X-Eon-Originating-Account: mxsP5keRzWGPWWU7cKjTx_jDKcyaBLhFlsVNuFCveJg X-Eon-Dm: m0117124.ppops.net Received: by m0117124.mta.everyone.net (EON-AUTHRELAY2 - 32d0d199) id m0117124.5dc217e5.81854d; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:21:29 -0800 X-Eon-Sig: AQMHrIJd+WL5tNedgQIAAAAD,6fef501130572d87df5ca96da5c3ae35 X-Eip: y46gHrrXf9MbjUGPgxgE15MFlnoApDwcICt25nGSwUg Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:21:18 -0800 From: Bengt Richter <bokr@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?R8OhYm9y?= Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism Message-ID: <20191217232118.GA14151@HIDDEN> References: <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pjc5pWiaaB17tJnpO=O0=M5xrEWhyvWMLRaiLy5V19Y5Q@HIDDEN> <20191217223048.GA3741@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <20191217223048.GA3741@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2019-12-17_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1034 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=743 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1911140001 definitions=main-1912170184 X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Reply-To: Bengt Richter <bokr@HIDDEN> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) Forgot to add: ┌──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ guile -c '(use-modules (ice-9 session))(apropos "env") │ ├──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤ │ (guile): getenv #<procedure getenv (_)> │ │ (guile): environ #<procedure environ (#:optional _)> │ │ (guile): setenv #<procedure setenv (name value)> │ │ (guile): interaction-environment #<procedure interaction-environment ()> │ │ (guile): putenv #<procedure putenv (_)> │ │ (guile): unsetenv #<procedure unsetenv (name)> │ └──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ BTW, it would be really handy to be able to type guile -apropos rest of line as regex for the effect of ,a rest of line as regex in the guile repl -- Regards, Bengt Richter
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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From: Bengt Richter <bokr@HIDDEN>
To: =?utf-8?B?R8OhYm9y?= Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment
proposed deprecation mechanism
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Hi Gábor, Konrad, et al
On +2019-12-17 10:14:12 +0100, Gábor Boskovits wrote:
> Hello Konrad,
>
> Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> ezt írta (időpont: 2019. dec.
> 17., Ke 7:52):
>
> > On 16/12/2019 23:09, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> > > So in a more algorithmic manner:
> > >> 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail
> > >> hard. (With an error like incompatible options present)
> > >> 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes,
> > >> we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you
> > >> described)
> > >> 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour.
> > >> 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then
> > >> a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour,
> > >> b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the
> > >> new behaviour.
> > > That sounds like a good plan to me.
> > >
> > > #4 is the trickiest, and I think it’d be good to give users a bit of
> > > time so they can start adjusting before deprecation is in effect.
> >
> > #4 is trickiest for another reason: there is no future-proof use of
> > "guix environment" that works right now and will continue to work. Nor
> > is there any way to see, when looking at a command line, whether it's
> > old-style or new-style, if neither --ad-hoc nor --inputs-of are present.
> > This means that all existing documentation (tutorials etc.) will become
> > misleading in the future. Worse, even documentation written today, in
> > full awareness of a coming change, can't do better than saying "watch
> > out, this will do something else in the future".
> >
> > The first rule of backwards-compatibility is: never change the meaning
> > of an existing valid command/API. Add new valid syntax, deprecate old
> > valid syntax, but don't change the meaning of something that was and
> > will be valid.
> >
I think it is important to consider context when talking about meaning.
1. the level and the interpreter of the command:
The first level is usually the shell (typicallly bash) from logind,
but there is systemd and/or shepherd before that, and there is bootloader
and UEFI and before that also accepting and/or passing commands through
to the kernel via the kernel command line (cf. cat /proc/cmdline ).
The general pattern I mostly see for a given interpreter is
verb -adverb* (-adjective-for: object-name)* sub-command? implicit-or-object-for-verb*
Consider whether your new name reinforces a good convention or forks it.
Consider whether proposed usage translates easily to a natural language explanation.
Does guix have a cli design best practices doc, BTW?
right now we are talking about the use case where
verb=guix and subcommand=environment
2. project community conventions
Specialized areas often have their own jargon and abbreviated refrences
so an unfortunate choice of name can cause distracting disambiguation searches.
Before settling on a new name xxx, even for a sub-command, I would say at least
first do the following at the command line:
which xxx
xxx --version
xxx --help
info xxx
man xxx
apropos xxx
#check for same prefix, case-insensitively,
# e.g. env might be tempting, as seen in this thread :)
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
echo $PATH|tr : $'\n'|while read pdir;do (find "$pdir" -maxdepth 1 -iname "env*" 2>/dev/null);done
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---
# -name "*xxx*" may also be a good idea, but the prefix is most important
# env* produces
/usr/bin/env
/usr/bin/envsubst
guix search xxx
guix package -A xxx
wikipedia search on xxx, e.g.
lynx -dump -force_html -nolist https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=xxx |less
You get the idea, I'm sure ;-)
> > How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" and
> > introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour?
> >
SGTM, with some caveats
Good, since calling different things by the same name is always going to be problematic.
Iffy, since calling the same thing by different names may reduce future naming options,
and may muddy the peer-name namespace, so maybe consider using sub-commands or -adverb.
> That is also the other option I was thinking about. Do you have any good
> idea in mind as how to call it? Of course the classic guix environment2
> comes to my mind, but it does not look very appealing to me.
>
Me neither :)
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Konrad.
> >
> Best regard,
> g_bor
>
HTH in some way :)
--
Regards,
Bengt Richter
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2019 17:08:04 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 12:08:04 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:42336 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ihGKK-000415-74 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 12:08:04 -0500 Received: from mail-qk1-f178.google.com ([209.85.222.178]:43092) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ihGKJ-00040R-5D for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 12:08:03 -0500 Received: by mail-qk1-f178.google.com with SMTP id t129so2637751qke.10 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:08:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0uGojQhEq31dlx1V0us9T1Svh/f0OZWldNXrHycZtOc=; b=WaZmTS/6vzIqeQFBNdDlNwyoSjFonQo9ghATdjvRBgr7aFZ1UsELTfMjeEvhchSpwb VzzewiY5u8+IOgidM42dFD/jbSeZOtwdSBM6KmKNbQNdVthlFEx5mlSRa/ltGGWnErhV 2CwAJmqGBGVdH4UIz1y1HNs+eG2guGgfansNmFy8uWBkFgAqxNsezcTHCBXXMBRaFJrJ 79BZpylSueKckdKOwh3oNNbTW+f0sI9Bqk4twDYiT1Eeaj3w2rb5w9hTCBVKdoOlAiST GDAJG/7q+xdix9mlgOUTMNxux4csU6rUQsS2iHmmDOFH0s1fAt+mqDqhN7y1YikLwVL9 jObg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0uGojQhEq31dlx1V0us9T1Svh/f0OZWldNXrHycZtOc=; b=HLbQ6TeTHdvgHx6AQ4UCtIraKZPOKeNa+wbo87FG6xMD4Ti0pSy++pjcdzT3hi2uVl BCN9O4CqYMtCw53mE46VmBWQIaNTWz+dJHcual9QK1BoqY5vEDUERcarn182aaXb59m0 TxAPNuXmwztG3xFF9tDWUTe6+/7xH+Uum3WwDJowY21oMt8+PZjCGIHVEvkzjUN+UAqm g7MWQ7G1q57HczkrQFSvcJoyLp6qBmiNIGSVQ+YVK0uPOuY70R48abLPt7sF/2AdWP3a s5UsPv+WBTke7i98+CcSzTWQxp+za3QnXNrDWJS7UuG9DyXmhCEQeUdbXJsESbcao82C NLlg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVwLT+zJnHWkYFiC9xhg0XM4PMBP69xS4eptJWfSrsPGhkKTLGU YKQffa27K3U7IOElGUyyl7GKKMoezCNbAi8gEXw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwYM9jJjLVw2E6Xi76cYoUil5zHRDEdxph+w2UykleyRgOV+Ob1gSFLtaVLBskbZpZZuQOktsVHj7K62pLV4sI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1592:: with SMTP id d18mr6149675qkk.80.1576602477686; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:07:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 18:07:45 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ0Fw=02cDwdn5GuiDCyUNOUY=YaGyrFyHE5qWsOQTLASQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix Devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Konrad, On Tue, 17 Dec 2019 at 07:52, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> wr= ote: > > On 16/12/2019 23:09, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > > So in a more algorithmic manner: > >> 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail > >> hard. (With an error like incompatible options present) > >> 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, > >> we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you > >> described) > >> 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. > >> 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then > >> a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, > >> b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the > >> new behaviour. > > That sounds like a good plan to me. > > > > #4 is the trickiest, and I think it=E2=80=99d be good to give users a b= it of > > time so they can start adjusting before deprecation is in effect. > > #4 is trickiest for another reason: there is no future-proof use of > "guix environment" that works right now and will continue to work. Nor > is there any way to see, when looking at a command line, whether it's > old-style or new-style, if neither --ad-hoc nor --inputs-of are present. > This means that all existing documentation (tutorials etc.) will become > misleading in the future. Worse, even documentation written today, in > full awareness of a coming change, can't do better than saying "watch > out, this will do something else in the future". I do not understand what is the issue for the time-traveling if it is documented. Maybe I miss a point. It is not: "watch out, this will do something else in the future" but "watch out, this was doing something else in the past and the change happened the <date> in <commit>". First, I am not convinced that there is not so much scripts that will be broken. And second, I am not convinced neither that these very scripts need time-traveling. > The first rule of backwards-compatibility is: never change the meaning > of an existing valid command/API. Add new valid syntax, deprecate old > valid syntax, but don't change the meaning of something that was and > will be valid. I agree on the rule. But it is mitigated but the number of users and the popularity of the tool.= ;-) > How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" and > introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour? Yes, it is probably the most adequate to do. But it is sad to loose the good name "guix environment"... and we know that naming is hard. ;-) What about "guix shell"? All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2019 14:22:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 09:22:28 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40885 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ihDk4-0003uG-EG for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:22:28 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:50521) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <brettg@HIDDEN>) id 1ihDk2-0003u3-A0 for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 09:22:26 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F39BB160060 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:22:19 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1576592540; bh=riuXq1/WkHeMDUk6avf2F9C6mOk1x7JBKwDAR9EvgzU=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:From; b=ZVK6h/QkDDLxgEKl/o7DFNTdI8YUUHwhGbuz88YXkD4FuXcPY/2E3ts2SWc28VbZM z+vwmThzHZriXNewwMtDocqjGBXyaWFTY7oRklVOXbgubAv7rfSg0EdWxtVG2WVPsD hOxWSQx6JET+FpCfWY3Y4SrFGvljDyQ0tbgdkRHGxrNzun11/xv5gMOp2gMo7nJVOF +206iAbDhYjhSP8ACRqotZFbMF6VDSbSX7+ahArzW5/1arO4sdZklEgoYdDl208Z1H 1OMRX2uuBhf8M/bUurn1yPQlgQ1lCAYOIewsKuZRjvIcOmsLa4KVvlB9SrhTcma2CH whWjvSx5rbWDw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 47cgMG0jMdz6tm9; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 15:22:17 +0100 (CET) Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 14:22:15 +0000 (UTC) From: Brett Gilio <brettg@HIDDEN> To: Kyle Meyer <kyle@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <4ee893ad-b489-4e98-b716-e418cd3b8049@localhost> In-Reply-To: <87pngncc0n.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pjc5pWiaaB17tJnpO=O0=M5xrEWhyvWMLRaiLy5V19Y5Q@HIDDEN> <87pngncc0n.fsf@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Correlation-ID: <4ee893ad-b489-4e98-b716-e418cd3b8049@localhost> X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN>, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Dec 17, 2019 7:34:17 AM Kyle Meyer : > G=E1bor Boskovits writes: > > > > Konrad Hinsen ezt =EDrta (id?pont: 2019. dec. > > 17., Ke 7:52): > > > [...] > > > > > > How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" and > > > introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour? > > > > > > > > That is also the other option I was thinking about. Do you have any goo= d > > idea in mind as how to call it? Of course the classic guix environment2 > > comes to my mind, but it does not look very appealing to me. > > > > Perhaps "guix env"? > +1 for guix env
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2019 13:33:34 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 08:33:34 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40854 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ihCyk-0002eY-IG for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 08:33:34 -0500 Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com ([64.147.108.70]:65309) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <kyle@HIDDEN>) id 1ihCyh-0002eP-LW for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 08:33:32 -0500 Received: from pb-smtp1.pobox.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 905B41A532; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 08:33:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kyle@HIDDEN) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=pobox.com; h=from:to:cc :subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=sasl; bh=ReKxnVQeJn5B xQGmcUmCuHgf7sI=; b=TA5oIj5gLcgmK2tcB5olLT7MTql90Jndu4eHCeNIQst7 rkvJ9eWshdcdRM0eeZxBSF94gxkziX5mIgAsg1ubePs1P+u4AWzhdTheaQBkR03a xynjWl0s34xgf+AW8uVfx2IBC+Gj5fuk7RYRFUT3sCwHd5530Faz+Ee3JNAJpXw= Received: from pb-smtp1.nyi.icgroup.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 87FDE1A531; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 08:33:30 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kyle@HIDDEN) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed; d=kyleam.com; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mesmtp; bh=Pmzi0SE0d1HOH/dEemh7N5qUS7kOjtnZ8+EwuLYSUfE=; b=NIYu7YLLwxb+Yyek9USiNG+SLA4wHT7HMUL4/OGVg4eUNlLfyA0mmnq1FRpIXRMC0ivHnOqLlc8XC0k6FjDeZ0jlSflPHTfKs4oVCRLNWYdF9f95ReyoIAc9450RxX31bUzpgoXjMBILLX/p7o9qy4WHJunBX2/1zx6heb36N78= Received: from localhost (unknown [45.33.91.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by pb-smtp1.pobox.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E061B1A530; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 08:33:29 -0500 (EST) (envelope-from kyle@HIDDEN) From: Kyle Meyer <kyle@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor?= Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN>, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism In-Reply-To: <CAE4v=pjc5pWiaaB17tJnpO=O0=M5xrEWhyvWMLRaiLy5V19Y5Q@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pjc5pWiaaB17tJnpO=O0=M5xrEWhyvWMLRaiLy5V19Y5Q@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 13:33:28 +0000 Message-ID: <87pngncc0n.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Pobox-Relay-ID: D01276FA-20D1-11EA-AD42-C28CBED8090B-24757444!pb-smtp1.pobox.com X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) G=C3=A1bor Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN> writes: > Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2= 019. dec. > 17., Ke 7:52): [...] >> How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" and >> introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour? >> > That is also the other option I was thinking about. Do you have any good > idea in mind as how to call it? Of course the classic guix environment2 > comes to my mind, but it does not look very appealing to me. Perhaps "guix env"?
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Dec 2019 09:14:33 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 17 04:14:33 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40703 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ih8w4-0000Y6-T2 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 04:14:33 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f49.google.com ([209.85.208.49]:32873) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <boskovits@HIDDEN>) id 1ih8w3-0000Xt-Li for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 04:14:32 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f49.google.com with SMTP id r21so7472491edq.0 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 01:14:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2hj4cQm+vmScuj6unsA5YNXbeCJGiy+q+tAEF4SQLyc=; b=LeR8m6aMOXzuLmUdYxYv96r9Mi3HhJ0/MMyIfRI9605Rh2/8aPpbuK4cnIO1+uYIBl p9pFDAbY6jNdjn/E0zikXeCejy6cHwRh38W3im4kO0vLlEI43stVA3V5vFjwgXj2LqiA wqHbV9jF3o5nvsQghw88pmTMQMzZxGmM8kDbL7lXB7nY+zDIfoHbZjtVMZCdDXQo4uho OswZ0zaqm417CTqVKQImQ/0UE9VC16iHy4seqJe23+p2LFnWkc6Um92R06zj+28FhEio Rra5/xZvUjADdMmDCHvzhL2Y/20PeNUUzEeX8zHQD4snKdvNXE1ZxGM3TVFUILR1KcFO RjXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2hj4cQm+vmScuj6unsA5YNXbeCJGiy+q+tAEF4SQLyc=; b=TjyCh2kU4VQZzQeVrjT8aY19rTdqqGn7gYbjknOuVx+dTqOsWor8IqShX65BVf35BZ FJdNCC2ce77nEX1G3ZJxFofI2atpcluBh0FK9qHeMFzD8SZ1fnQd3bGiGN6KhgIAb/8X 3movWMa8F0pLuTQjJtd/YUr6zASVEx7sSbT3o6PBCNigOrox5588UOcs4Cv9brfSIKt4 zEhFGBQiwfRGQlq7OWHMpMVsLd6Z+nt/7Krgwt32cf9C286mXR6kOBzzwkL4Pz83IO7G vMkOnMZOpaUajY8ehyoUUWJ+jHJKjWCuxqa1Km71P0723RcMfmHaynp6RnP9aCTq7BZS d8TA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUtgi1QLYdZ9wYnIZL6gOXarWBW0nJOJODpnhQpvJnNu+X0bpYh SWx9b5hOS09knPfdOLZHLaBIBOBCRIrCSl35cA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyMHThZk7ACD8oRSLdctHpNN02ibBAuNynJGehh6yQ4fKrBQd8TIFH/ecIlSMR47UdEJlijyvIDoYZRNjd4HTo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:4047:: with SMTP id y7mr3869400ejj.78.1576574065732; Tue, 17 Dec 2019 01:14:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 10:14:12 +0100 Message-ID: <CAE4v=pjc5pWiaaB17tJnpO=O0=M5xrEWhyvWMLRaiLy5V19Y5Q@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002673950599e2c132" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000002673950599e2c132 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Konrad, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 201= 9. dec. 17., Ke 7:52): > On 16/12/2019 23:09, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote: > > So in a more algorithmic manner: > >> 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail > >> hard. (With an error like incompatible options present) > >> 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, > >> we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you > >> described) > >> 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. > >> 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then > >> a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, > >> b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the > >> new behaviour. > > That sounds like a good plan to me. > > > > #4 is the trickiest, and I think it=E2=80=99d be good to give users a b= it of > > time so they can start adjusting before deprecation is in effect. > > #4 is trickiest for another reason: there is no future-proof use of > "guix environment" that works right now and will continue to work. Nor > is there any way to see, when looking at a command line, whether it's > old-style or new-style, if neither --ad-hoc nor --inputs-of are present. > This means that all existing documentation (tutorials etc.) will become > misleading in the future. Worse, even documentation written today, in > full awareness of a coming change, can't do better than saying "watch > out, this will do something else in the future". > > The first rule of backwards-compatibility is: never change the meaning > of an existing valid command/API. Add new valid syntax, deprecate old > valid syntax, but don't change the meaning of something that was and > will be valid. > > How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" and > introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour? > That is also the other option I was thinking about. Do you have any good idea in mind as how to call it? Of course the classic guix environment2 comes to my mind, but it does not look very appealing to me. > > > Cheers, > > Konrad. > Best regard, g_bor > > > > --0000000000002673950599e2c132 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hello Konrad,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div= dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">Konrad Hinsen <<a href=3D"mailto:konra= d.hinsen@HIDDEN">konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN</a>> ezt =C3=ADrta (id= =C5=91pont: 2019. dec. 17., Ke 7:52):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e= x">On 16/12/2019 23:09, Ludovic Court=C3=A8s wrote:<br> > So in a more algorithmic manner:<br> >> 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail= <br> >> hard. (With an error like incompatible options present)<br> >> 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (ye= s,<br> >> we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like = you<br> >> described)<br> >> 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour.<br> >> 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then<br> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the curren= t behaviour,<br> >>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is= not 1: do the<br> >> new behaviour.<br> > That sounds like a good plan to me.<br> ><br> > #4 is the trickiest, and I think it=E2=80=99d be good to give users a = bit of<br> > time so they can start adjusting before deprecation is in effect.<br> <br> #4 is trickiest for another reason: there is no future-proof use of <br> "guix environment" that works right now and will continue to work= . Nor <br> is there any way to see, when looking at a command line, whether it's <= br> old-style or new-style, if neither --ad-hoc nor --inputs-of are present. <b= r> This means that all existing documentation (tutorials etc.) will become <br= > misleading in the future. Worse, even documentation written today, in <br> full awareness of a coming change, can't do better than saying "wa= tch <br> out, this will do something else in the future".<br> <br> The first rule of backwards-compatibility is: never change the meaning <br> of an existing valid command/API. Add new valid syntax, deprecate old <br> valid syntax, but don't change the meaning of something that was and <b= r> will be valid.<br> <br> How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" an= d <br> introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour?<br></blockquote>= </div></div><div dir=3D"auto">That is also the other option I was thinking = about. Do you have any good idea in mind as how to call it? Of course the c= lassic guix environment2 comes to my mind, but it does not look very appeal= ing to me.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote cl= ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p= adding-left:1ex"> <br> <br> Cheers,<br> <br> =C2=A0=C2=A0 Konrad.<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">Best reg= ard,</div><div dir=3D"auto">g_bor</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmai= l_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;borde= r-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> <br> <br> </blockquote></div></div></div> --0000000000002673950599e2c132--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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Tue, 17 Dec 2019 01:49:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: guix-devel@HIDDEN, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <e992ac46-37b9-ba12-83cc-6694427acd31@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2019 07:49:21 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.14; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.9.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Language: en-US X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) On 16/12/2019 23:09, Ludovic Courtès wrote: > So in a more algorithmic manner: >> 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail >> hard. (With an error like incompatible options present) >> 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, >> we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you >> described) >> 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. >> 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then >> a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, >> b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the >> new behaviour. > That sounds like a good plan to me. > > #4 is the trickiest, and I think it’d be good to give users a bit of > time so they can start adjusting before deprecation is in effect. #4 is trickiest for another reason: there is no future-proof use of "guix environment" that works right now and will continue to work. Nor is there any way to see, when looking at a command line, whether it's old-style or new-style, if neither --ad-hoc nor --inputs-of are present. This means that all existing documentation (tutorials etc.) will become misleading in the future. Worse, even documentation written today, in full awareness of a coming change, can't do better than saying "watch out, this will do something else in the future". The first rule of backwards-compatibility is: never change the meaning of an existing valid command/API. Add new valid syntax, deprecate old valid syntax, but don't change the meaning of something that was and will be valid. How about a more drastic measure: deprecate "guix environment" and introduce a new subcommand with the desired new behaviour? Cheers, Konrad.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 16 Dec 2019 22:09:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 16 17:09:48 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40436 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1igyYl-0005cY-U1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:09:48 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:54865) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1igyYj-0005cL-Kd for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:09:45 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:38992) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1igyYe-0004uO-9A; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:09:40 -0500 Received: from [2a01:e0a:1d:7270:af76:b9b:ca24:c465] (port=42946 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1igyYd-0000ky-JL; Mon, 16 Dec 2019 17:09:39 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor?= Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2019 23:09:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> (=?utf-8?Q?=22G=C3=A1bor?= Boskovits"'s message of "Fri, 13 Dec 2019 17:27:52 +0100") Message-ID: <87k16vdise.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hello, G=C3=A1bor Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN> skribis: > So in a more algorithmic manner: > 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail > hard. (With an error like incompatible options present) > 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, > we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you > described) > 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. > 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then > a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, > b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the > new behaviour. That sounds like a good plan to me. #4 is the trickiest, and I think it=E2=80=99d be good to give users a bit of time so they can start adjusting before deprecation is in effect. Namely, we could start by introducing =E2=80=98--inputs-of=E2=80=99 and emi= tting a warning in case #4 to suggest the use of =E2=80=98--inputs-of=E2=80=99. Ap= art from the warning, case #4 would still behave the same as now. Three (?) months later, we implement what you describe above. Hopefully by that time many people got used to =E2=80=98--inputs-of=E2=80=99. Thoughts? Ludo=E2=80=99.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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(With an error like incompatible options present) > > 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, > > we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you > > described) > > 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. > > 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then > > a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, > > b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the > > new behaviour. > > > > This would minimze friction, as there will be a few scripts falling und= er 4. > > This would also allow mirgating such scripts one by one. be defining > > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED to 1 in some startup file, and using > > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D0 guix environment ... in scripts that ar= e > > fixed to use the new syntax. > > > > > > What do you think? > > I am perfectly aligned! :-) Great! > It is exactly what I have tried to describe. > Sorry again for being slow. I am sorry for the confusion, my communication tends to slugghish, an I am also a bit bound to do some hand-waving :) I hope to improve on that > > Thank you. > Do you plan to implement it? Do I give a try? I would like to hear something from Ludo, as he was also a participant of the IRC discussion. After that I would not mind if you gave it a try, if you would like. Otherwise I will implement it. > > > All the best, > simon Best regards, g_bor --=20 OpenPGP Key Fingerprint: 7988:3B9F:7D6A:4DBF:3719:0367:2506:A96C:CF63:0B21
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Dec 2019 16:32:52 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 13 11:32:52 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34587 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ifns4-0003Z7-Ce for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:32:52 -0500 Received: from mail-qk1-f174.google.com ([209.85.222.174]:38023) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ifns2-0003Yt-8u for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:32:50 -0500 Received: by mail-qk1-f174.google.com with SMTP id k6so59541qki.5 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 08:32:50 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VBHydOd8ZGlVXWN8rOz0dkTM8CksioTEmKizcW8LmcY=; b=bIY9rtElC68cyuZeKfPLAnF/YKy0VbeeGPMBxRpPAL+Zh0TZEFaij2cLLys6LjHB9T Jerqb/7v7EIBuOEH8taRs5R9lB8y7cGkReP0LQRWeQFWl+gq3YWn09FJkNG0q2lVWuGO Hyf5CnFijDGou6pbjXD9eCglB560vn57TLtibnScn1l2l8sZufmkL/10JJ/0heMwd1Vc 1k7L0w5y+Ktu9J2mtKCljL7bnveUI4oTGxrGGteBBbnr9n0tg1vYYPCjjOcmQK2sEyKL f0TIWM2rLin+PmBXvizL/E9f9gT5eXFJbt0VAdqaauKYiLGLaGWMKUtwSSOk1VlhgwQq xLEQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VBHydOd8ZGlVXWN8rOz0dkTM8CksioTEmKizcW8LmcY=; b=eYWGx6d/hDQUXyV6VjjEJhR7Pt0zaqXTNE9ELKbTZqZNn2vHPP/89IsSMnIrcEPprW 6x69ZgnLuxh7K+LmG4UCWtPwbhwdw8utgZGTu63umqI1l3R8jbiMUjcqgTLqSAVIoFaK kt3pFpfs8i3m+mliJjwlOg8663WWC6S6vHEIShyGTJfSr/33k3AT1T4Ba9z3Htow7vCh M5FmkZSDttcUiI2uZl0mWzgsTkHmcA4CQxMYbhqNZ/KbyEeR1VAuWhJt4CWEjc6eyYU2 rYPiy01oFu4F69zGxr7bY9rXnz+jQiQEKQKVUXxnnBFeyhlBWyVYARaiRDNcpsUNuHqf qXLw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAV5RrBNFTMt5EfinpaPZhXsUGNPIdgZ2jyZRFmKHX894Q8UM4SR ZxklRs6amTDC6pVf8Jxr8A9EEcctKSA6jlJfqtg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzrsXkfdCjS7tPwshf+RtXZ+HcxgBZYECjxGAVooqXvI6VtDg4mcNzZLcKMzr+1pR+FSJVrBKWggDxszQt1ADY= X-Received: by 2002:a37:684a:: with SMTP id d71mr13053993qkc.201.1576254764826; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 08:32:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 17:32:33 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ1L_nmhdOwsxFmmTA3v9GiB=6NU2jSZFF7AgY-fctHtsA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi G=C3=A1bor, Sorry to be slow. :-) On Fri, 13 Dec 2019 at 17:28, G=C3=A1bor Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN> wr= ote: > So in a more algorithmic manner: > 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail > hard. (With an error like incompatible options present) > 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, > we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you > described) > 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. > 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then > a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, > b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the > new behaviour. > > This would minimze friction, as there will be a few scripts falling under= 4. > This would also allow mirgating such scripts one by one. be defining > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED to 1 in some startup file, and using > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D0 guix environment ... in scripts that are > fixed to use the new syntax. > > > What do you think? I am perfectly aligned! :-) It is exactly what I have tried to describe. Sorry again for being slow. Thank you. Do you plan to implement it? Do I give a try? All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Dec 2019 16:28:12 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 13 11:28:12 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34577 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ifnnX-0003Q3-MN for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:28:12 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f51.google.com ([209.85.208.51]:43932) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <boskovits@HIDDEN>) id 1ifnnV-0003Pg-SL for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 11:28:10 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f51.google.com with SMTP id dc19so2489719edb.10 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 08:28:09 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2NP1cQkM4fMWiaVW9bOK21A4075D2ml8t4SHrJ5DyVk=; b=XVs6Bx7xwkhBBqc3fxwNx0yPLJuPf0gqYTwUslgYXk1eF4R+IkPPI3vF7vSlp43lY/ uhh9d96NUH9inU0MHVWsgbr4ilk4P8912DwZMjGwHGH9sv7rPcweBfqDbkTuQDcZwleg qhVurmQjlfG7dboH9fUIALyelgeEoHQEWW0MJ7DDflKYIEkHWXVzGVWCpC0mYbTWg6FJ jtd3QArm+2KjjLzyocQWuTMnHU3iM9CodeAD8nl+e0K+iHfAiWwjwuRf1QrFUh7GSppL wxqZs/bjivZ+fkktbscHK9GPAjWC75mu/XrB/LfAbzqVD465Lvos21CPA2LYiMG7Mmb8 jlYw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2NP1cQkM4fMWiaVW9bOK21A4075D2ml8t4SHrJ5DyVk=; b=mV3Ft5pZfgZfvJl+m3iTflYqRAY5idAPX6OwlMuFtAmyTPzbnZd2dstXGEFrGC/jIy I0n+uJcd8MnnEXMkiWWk6mi+QLvkuE6rBsRC2mCp0tNfYOe6ZDb7YG60yAqzp22BgZMS yJLPdzbn1qGq0+VccnpZWAgKiBEUBDN+gQjxfNZeWUKH9Q5kmvIfhL/UgKcOeVLy/gCC zLP3j781pKIGu3s6Mtzel2YJvoWo33jy+L+vsf0nhVjQ7OBsX/Rm0n+u4YqwLbPlGWS8 0s1dBpxkbzrlC86quv2Yvhtl5H1nZgb7rHP+4xdbZXQnrg9I7g6ljOJXYQPJjn5igqBe JrWw== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVOzI4tbXDOuRvopeoiV+qcRvr0FN6smb6cad1ZdfbL3Ysjdotd OaRiHIkFcUhDT4XQf5kTp7QGa+tNe8nxCj6P1A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwRxvy4aC76Rub+33kLslkiGif0UV13nRZMYi5+uAbznxXGHpfTv+QWM2Z3MrxuFqm+dbptlg+OBJj5SXMfvr8= X-Received: by 2002:a50:fb13:: with SMTP id d19mr5090909edq.87.1576254484042; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 08:28:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 17:27:52 +0100 Message-ID: <CAE4v=pgevGwP6+jSY-+0DPdtvK60sEvd-uibqhRawuo6N1pL-Q@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello, Let me try again :) zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2019. dec. 1= 3., P, 13:02): > > Hi G=C3=A1bor, > > > On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 21:54, G=C3=A1bor Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN> = wrote: > > > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2019. de= c. 12., Cs=C3=BC 17:47): > > >> Maybe I miss a point. Is the aim to conserve the "--ad-hoc" option > >> with a different effect? Or why do we want to conserve this option > >> name? > >> It appears to me simpler to give another name, for example > >> "--inputs-of". And it is more meaningful. > > > > Sorry for the confusion. Ad-hoc should be retained with the same effect= , so that we do not break existing scripts. > > Renamin the option would be ok. It even makes sense to me. > > What I propose is: > > - keep the option "--ad-hoc" with the current behavior; so same effect > - add a new option "--inputs-of" with the new behavior; name more meani= ngful > - and two env variables; to not break existing scripts > > > >> First, when "--ad-hoc" is used then it reports a warning: deprecated > >> option and falls in the current behavior. > >> When "--inputs-of" is used then it falls in the new behavior. > >> Therefore, no needs of the ugly "--ignore-deprecated-ad-hoc". > > > > That could be done. The problem is caused by uses of guix environment t= hat does not use any of these options. Those mean different things after th= e change. > > The transition to such use-case was described below with the > introduction of 2 env variables. :-) > > > >> # Alice > >> $ guix environment foo --ad-hoc bar > >> Warning: deprecated... explanations... > >> instead use: > >> guix environment bar --inputs-of foo > >> > >> # Bob > >> $ guix environment bar --inputs-of foo > >> > >> > >> Second, the previous "guix environment foo" (dependencies of foo) is > >> inconsistent with the new "guix environment bar" (only the package > >> bar). Therefore, let introduce the GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED > >> variable to distinguish both, as you said. > > > > Ok. > > It is the easy part. ;-) > > > Now the hard part: avoid to break existing scripts. > > >> # Alice > >> $ guix environment foo > >> Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 > >> turn off the warning: GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1 > >> > >> And Alice has now a new shell with the package foo. If she wants the > >> dependencies, she has two options: > >> > >> $ GUIX_ENVIRONMENT=3D1 guix environment foo > >> or > >> $ guix environment --inputs-of foo > >> > >> > >> # Bob > >> $ guix environment bar > >> Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT > >> > >> And if Bob is annoyed by the warnings each time, he globally turns off > >> with the variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1. > >> > >> > >> Couple of months later -- after the period adoption -- we remove the > >> variables GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING and GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED; > >> still keeping the warning with the "--ad-hoc" option. And then, after > >> we can remove the "--ad-hoc" option if required. > > > > We could recommend simply to use something like: > > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D0 guix environment ... > > Instead in existing scripts that are fixed to use the new syntax. This = indeed looks like a better solution, and it is less of a maintenance burden= . Good idea. > > My point is: the new variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED should only > be used by the scripts that call "guix environment pkg" without the > options "--ad-hoc" or "--inputs-of". And I think that it represents > really few scripts in real life. :-) > > > > Summarizing: > > Introduce the environment variable. > > For fixed scripts recommend unsetting the environment variable. > > I am not to get your plan. :-) > > > Cheers, > simon So in a more algorithmic manner: 1. if ad-hoc and inputs-of is present at the same invocation: fail hard. (With an error like incompatible options present) 2. if only ad-hoc is present, then print a deprecation warning (yes, we could make this suspendable with an environment variable, like you described) 3. if only inputs-of present, then do the new behaviour. 4. if neither ad-hoc nor inputs-of present then a. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is 1: do the current behaviour, b. if GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED is undefined, or is not 1: do the new behaviour. This would minimze friction, as there will be a few scripts falling under 4= . This would also allow mirgating such scripts one by one. be defining GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED to 1 in some startup file, and using GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D0 guix environment ... in scripts that are fixed to use the new syntax. What do you think? Best regards, g_bor --=20 OpenPGP Key Fingerprint: 7988:3B9F:7D6A:4DBF:3719:0367:2506:A96C:CF63:0B21
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Dec 2019 12:02:46 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Dec 13 07:02:46 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:33112 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ifjeg-0003iA-4E for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 07:02:46 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f52.google.com ([209.85.219.52]:39761) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ifjee-0003hy-HJ for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 07:02:44 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f52.google.com with SMTP id y8so714621qvk.6 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 04:02:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AFW8jejzKYYAQqr2tKcY5AO9gxKaJhzyYzQ7ve1w7OU=; b=klhkggYfGuVuzaKgLDUFQuZur6A/x0F8ECek8QUQk6LnNUM0C8rBRTDleyi46/56ck 2q6JsB662njmcr5fTWnUjtDdihVmnKdmRMfg0Wa92r8Rv+7A9tlPuoX8IDtndkZnwQiO 9cHclB78XEV0ANKVUSUJJo5uPxbLhxVHz/RvaekgkzNnHH2/+FPA9kZsavZkKZ8SyCwf Opr17wmoBvBECYFwU3I+Msym/zRCY3CC/TNixn+bZWeu+/nreG11m8+aW/uyWvbuug6N 25M/vft7JX6EQwevIemvFD7ft7Z4VazFOyh5kVymuWIDvQ6Uz0pt8cPnb63CylnkQDoi 8x6w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=AFW8jejzKYYAQqr2tKcY5AO9gxKaJhzyYzQ7ve1w7OU=; b=f5cOAkdx6AR8k+xKmjZMMJ6/gVETvyXtjea79nY4LE5qfjczWcGz3Bx67gEADTQ90v CiAxAYPgqma13eNq6GtTp8bZTWmWWo500xMs03rCoHU5HdGyK5+oqK9/s8aTwmF6xSSj vaKQKDTb+OXE4ei0eGvKAuXWYKI4SnRAPbcJ78m8IUSucmse4Retqxg/T3WtARez8HEr NTdWJ2ZVsMBnLRjRv8vR6YUqepXwsGlKAnFrkXGYKCflY46DH03wXj6atKwBxW/t2OMo NNKdYFc7uv37Gw+yIMVNtwoGK4hMKDjQlk8LuF2IukYsLpnIV7WcF9F6LmqRHR7kkFEn pNQA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVhWMYxxyQ+0O20R3TV7yKDVcSU4hKgBPRv3sP4x+elbjo2CT+y n4ffL0aPHv+3IhpyhdND1P9uboCjZ1XjVLOvaAg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyFavqQWDJslJP1cvKEPOxMQ7hzCdnNe8QklNu2gXSwBBKVupYjWaslgzKEBcRBMzo0Vd9xXBUWeg3A4s2nZ84= X-Received: by 2002:a0c:f703:: with SMTP id w3mr13083275qvn.6.1576238559043; Fri, 13 Dec 2019 04:02:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2019 13:02:27 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ3gJDdDKWERLANp+7ueSirEZ7hH=YKa3nhCAzCzAz1TGg@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi G=C3=A1bor, On Thu, 12 Dec 2019 at 21:54, G=C3=A1bor Boskovits <boskovits@HIDDEN> wr= ote: > zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2019. dec.= 12., Cs=C3=BC 17:47): >> Maybe I miss a point. Is the aim to conserve the "--ad-hoc" option >> with a different effect? Or why do we want to conserve this option >> name? >> It appears to me simpler to give another name, for example >> "--inputs-of". And it is more meaningful. > > Sorry for the confusion. Ad-hoc should be retained with the same effect, = so that we do not break existing scripts. > Renamin the option would be ok. It even makes sense to me. What I propose is: - keep the option "--ad-hoc" with the current behavior; so same effect - add a new option "--inputs-of" with the new behavior; name more meaning= ful - and two env variables; to not break existing scripts >> First, when "--ad-hoc" is used then it reports a warning: deprecated >> option and falls in the current behavior. >> When "--inputs-of" is used then it falls in the new behavior. >> Therefore, no needs of the ugly "--ignore-deprecated-ad-hoc". > > That could be done. The problem is caused by uses of guix environment tha= t does not use any of these options. Those mean different things after the = change. The transition to such use-case was described below with the introduction of 2 env variables. :-) >> # Alice >> $ guix environment foo --ad-hoc bar >> Warning: deprecated... explanations... >> instead use: >> guix environment bar --inputs-of foo >> >> # Bob >> $ guix environment bar --inputs-of foo >> >> >> Second, the previous "guix environment foo" (dependencies of foo) is >> inconsistent with the new "guix environment bar" (only the package >> bar). Therefore, let introduce the GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED >> variable to distinguish both, as you said. > > Ok. It is the easy part. ;-) Now the hard part: avoid to break existing scripts. >> # Alice >> $ guix environment foo >> Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 >> turn off the warning: GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1 >> >> And Alice has now a new shell with the package foo. If she wants the >> dependencies, she has two options: >> >> $ GUIX_ENVIRONMENT=3D1 guix environment foo >> or >> $ guix environment --inputs-of foo >> >> >> # Bob >> $ guix environment bar >> Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT >> >> And if Bob is annoyed by the warnings each time, he globally turns off >> with the variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1. >> >> >> Couple of months later -- after the period adoption -- we remove the >> variables GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING and GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED; >> still keeping the warning with the "--ad-hoc" option. And then, after >> we can remove the "--ad-hoc" option if required. > We could recommend simply to use something like: > GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D0 guix environment ... > Instead in existing scripts that are fixed to use the new syntax. This in= deed looks like a better solution, and it is less of a maintenance burden. = Good idea. My point is: the new variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED should only be used by the scripts that call "guix environment pkg" without the options "--ad-hoc" or "--inputs-of". And I think that it represents really few scripts in real life. :-) > Summarizing: > Introduce the environment variable. > For fixed scripts recommend unsetting the environment variable. I am not to get your plan. :-) Cheers, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Dec 2019 20:55:02 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 12 15:55:02 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60958 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ifVUE-0003xw-Bb for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 15:55:02 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com ([209.85.208.53]:38124) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <boskovits@HIDDEN>) id 1ifVUC-0003xP-86 for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 15:55:00 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id i6so185684edr.5 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:55:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9G1pPW8PzSkOB8wbN/iVmfhSIm9k263KLHZfVafP23o=; b=BDU76t/EsJKb7Y04YDMtBlDP13qfgQwopkAe1BjxB3PnyNwQ8Qo97kta6DHiKX8uu4 zOJWSnyYQM19qKAXoIAKgUGFPs8NWrQFMTQSeRKzmbTzKMwrdHhzQSul4xAerXrV5jms pR0Ed3BErmFWjJ8fKrHNJsC24IU5cLriPkirZOF/2FyzNh6/hOXk5cUXGdgHWCRQWq7o ElCqj7GoM+gCoBLdBjn76QLmlxXe28DyIMeQcZQqdmL+7fXJWKd1zKjtXjF/qx5/tunV Qa1nVJIqxHuMDVN89EX+KZpcBvPpNniciEQX9IpwSSoUUkW5SVly7ovpzq0YTz8J3ong SR+Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9G1pPW8PzSkOB8wbN/iVmfhSIm9k263KLHZfVafP23o=; b=QaItg8GrWTbiR7jCnt0EMDn4553T4xI1MzEQtMOvo2G59UQKt9rdiK87ZPpb89hSp0 Ad2UFYvyIDYOgEdCQJOb8eyvAo0yJgXuhS6qY3oC8NzqSJnpb++Go2iZvhLDdAPTb5+7 Yt4N246+Pt3Ft9FJ38cEqsMG7u3c5mSHVg/YRzIQ1ShOx8pk0AxgJYjx02VD6M0EXvdo 9mqzJB0G8EqREsX7JmH+cdTWUW9zO2nh2TZpU4YoN0QoTX5He+Nbigmot4A2yclLS3Ym 6N6t/azep9HM/WoXfS7VOwhqgP6VE2ns0frh6StiZQWabeOUNvLLBkQXRb18uhwulahw cxbQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVEnxBr9zM0SZwCSNQ9kFwO1LXjgNeHc8IWvn3BDjz5CropWnPt YmHjO9cQzbJi49fh1T7HMwTgFwQ0yS8Z7FKaVA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyyqGR9PBnI96w6grCFfTOr51cJBPekV67ectgx6fnEQu9ALbHKNJ6PO69vWR5IIV+fwUZnF6aA9Gl4WSsipOo= X-Received: by 2002:a50:fb13:: with SMTP id d19mr152082edq.87.1576184094280; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:54:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAJ3okZ3+-yAfRpYDHz-jYONguOPWjff0iWZ_7NPEz6x5mbOO1w@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 21:54:41 +0100 Message-ID: <CAE4v=piMnBhHWpbB60qMRnnDNwqkuddfNv7cEihr9+5-52k2OA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000a512b059987f5d8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) --0000000000000a512b059987f5d8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2019. dec. 1= 2., Cs=C3=BC 17:47): > Hi G=C3=A1bor, > > Thank you for summarizing the discussion on IRC that I missed. > > Maybe I miss a point. Is the aim to conserve the "--ad-hoc" option > with a different effect? Or why do we want to conserve this option > name? > It appears to me simpler to give another name, for example > "--inputs-of". And it is more meaningful. > Sorry for the confusion. Ad-hoc should be retained with the same effect, so that we do not break existing scripts. Renamin the option would be ok. It even makes sense to me. > > > To be concrete, the different cases; (-) means current behavior and > (+) the new one: > > 1. > - guix environment foo > + guix environment --inputs-of foo > > 2. > - guix environment --ad-hoc bar > + guix environment bar > > > First, when "--ad-hoc" is used then it reports a warning: deprecated > option and falls in the current behavior. > When "--inputs-of" is used then it falls in the new behavior. > Therefore, no needs of the ugly "--ignore-deprecated-ad-hoc". > That could be done. The problem is caused by uses of guix environment that does not use any of these options. Those mean different things after the change. > > > In other words, with the same future guix version, > > # Alice > $ guix environment foo --ad-hoc bar > Warning: deprecated... explanations... > instead use: > guix environment bar --inputs-of foo > > # Bob > $ guix environment bar --inputs-of foo > > > Second, the previous "guix environment foo" (dependencies of foo) is > inconsistent with the new "guix environment bar" (only the package > bar). Therefore, let introduce the GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED > variable to distinguish both, as you said. > Ok. > > # Alice > $ guix environment foo > Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1 > turn off the warning: GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1 > > And Alice has now a new shell with the package foo. If she wants the > dependencies, she has two options: > > $ GUIX_ENVIRONMENT=3D1 guix environment foo > or > $ guix environment --inputs-of foo > > > # Bob > $ guix environment bar > Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT > > And if Bob is annoyed by the warnings each time, he globally turns off > with the variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1. > > > Couple of months later -- after the period adoption -- we remove the > variables GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING and GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED; > still keeping the warning with the "--ad-hoc" option. And then, after > we can remove the "--ad-hoc" option if required. > > > Maybe a miss a point. But the addition of the flag appears > "--too-long-to-type" to me ugly. > We could recommend simply to use something like: GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D0 guix environment ... Instead in existing scripts that are fixed to use the new syntax. This indeed looks like a better solution, and it is less of a maintenance burden. Good idea. > > > What do you think? > > All the best, > simon > Summarizing: Introduce the environment variable. For fixed scripts recommend unsetting the environment variable. That looks like a better plan. Thanks for your insights. Best regards, g_bor > --0000000000000a512b059987f5d8 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto"><div>Hello,<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D= "ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">zimoun <<a href=3D"mailto:zimon.toutoune@gmai= l.com">zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN</a>> ezt =C3=ADrta (id=C5=91pont: 2019. = dec. 12., Cs=C3=BC 17:47):<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi G=C3= =A1bor,<br> <br> Thank you for summarizing the discussion on IRC that I missed.<br> <br> Maybe I miss a point. Is the aim to conserve the "--ad-hoc" optio= n<br> with a different effect? Or why do we want to conserve this option<br> name?<br> It appears to me simpler to give another name, for example<br> "--inputs-of". And it is more meaningful.<br></blockquote></div><= /div><div dir=3D"auto">Sorry for the confusion. Ad-hoc should be retained w= ith the same effect, so that we do not break existing scripts.</div><div di= r=3D"auto">Renamin the option would be ok. It even makes sense to me.</div>= <div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo= te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"= > <br> <br> To be concrete, the different cases; (-) means current behavior and<br> (+) the new one:<br> <br> 1.<br> - guix environment foo<br> + guix environment --inputs-of foo<br> <br> 2.<br> - guix environment --ad-hoc bar<br> + guix environment bar<br> <br> <br> First, when "--ad-hoc" is used then it reports a warning: depreca= ted<br> option and falls in the current behavior.<br> When "--inputs-of" is used then it falls in the new behavior.<br> Therefore, no needs of the ugly "--ignore-deprecated-ad-hoc".<br>= </blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto">That could be done. The problem = is caused by uses of guix environment that does not use any of these option= s. Those mean different things after the change.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><di= v class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0= 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> <br> In other words, with the same future guix version,<br> <br> =C2=A0# Alice<br> =C2=A0$ guix environment foo --ad-hoc bar<br> =C2=A0Warning: deprecated... explanations...<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0instead use:<br> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 guix environment ba= r --inputs-of foo<br> <br> =C2=A0# Bob<br> =C2=A0$ guix environment bar --inputs-of foo<br> <br> <br> Second, the previous "guix environment foo" (dependencies of foo)= is<br> inconsistent with the new "guix environment bar" (only the packag= e<br> bar). Therefore, let introduce the GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED<br> variable to distinguish both, as you said.<br></blockquote></div></div><div= dir=3D"auto">Ok.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockq= uote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc = solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> =C2=A0# Alice<br> =C2=A0$ guix environment foo<br> =C2=A0Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1<b= r> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0turn off the warning= : GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1<br> <br> And Alice has now a new shell with the package foo. If she wants the<br> dependencies, she has two options:<br> <br> $ GUIX_ENVIRONMENT=3D1 guix environment foo<br> or<br> $ guix environment --inputs-of foo<br> <br> <br> =C2=A0# Bob<br> =C2=A0$ guix environment bar<br> =C2=A0Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT<br> <br> And if Bob is annoyed by the warnings each time, he globally turns off<br> with the variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1.<br> <br> <br> Couple of months later -- after the period adoption -- we remove the<br> variables GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING and GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED;<br> still keeping the warning with the "--ad-hoc" option. And then, a= fter<br> we can remove the "--ad-hoc" option if required.<br> <br> <br> Maybe a miss a point. But the addition of the flag appears<br> "--too-long-to-type" to me ugly.<br></blockquote></div></div><div= dir=3D"auto">We could recommend simply to use something like:</div><div di= r=3D"auto">GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D0 guix environment ...</div><div d= ir=3D"auto">Instead in existing scripts that are fixed to use the new synta= x. This indeed looks like a better solution, and it is less of a maintenanc= e burden. Good idea.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blo= ckquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #c= cc solid;padding-left:1ex"> <br> <br> What do you think?<br> <br> All the best,<br> simon<br></blockquote></div></div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"a= uto">Summarizing:</div><div dir=3D"auto">Introduce the environment variable= .</div><div dir=3D"auto">For fixed scripts recommend unsetting the environm= ent variable.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">That looks= like a better plan. Thanks for your insights.</div><div dir=3D"auto"><br><= /div><div dir=3D"auto">Best regards,</div><div dir=3D"auto">g_bor</div><div= dir=3D"auto"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" = style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote></div></div></div> --0000000000000a512b059987f5d8--
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Dec 2019 19:34:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 12 14:34:15 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:60918 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ifUE3-00019T-5r for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:34:15 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f53.google.com ([209.85.219.53]:33980) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ifUE1-00019E-WC for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 14:34:14 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f53.google.com with SMTP id o18so1440820qvf.1 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:34:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a0R+ht8tbIUmOEpxiorTw7b4biLiPoo/FTrj91bYvd0=; b=NsHLLrPIbpeN7uqLPhX2FQ6Lg9KYacF95N2YWMrKuVTJatDhyKC5CZgjbvQ5Y9rB4l UBauUhy1U8nzXksGxA0nL3UY3h9drVrRtEtBGYqh+BlcYP/IMJbTZChHzgNtKYYE29QO T9oObIvLtKoKOQvonILCnZS7E2Vi9lDf2dKwIY+A677iqq7tMvWDgDZdu4BVpw2bGlrI dZjmhQ656hwqc5HWAlvAiH+6UtVpw27hWxYN06K0N67FLuQOwd4OEpqNS2TRRPMewvXF eS81VZgmhXbuijR73ntqCB8Dadq6XLCmpzO7Q5ankT39Lq80FEcK4ln98F0hPzl7EYAh QJdA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a0R+ht8tbIUmOEpxiorTw7b4biLiPoo/FTrj91bYvd0=; b=WppAdZzZGhdzrCuSYq43hDTV2VIKk4d7SE+aNzv1CPymRUwwdpNibzwi7nhGj0nlEu UORFw/R+aC+O/imJKHVW9V/WH3FNRNQFNVMA2F/4Ssj5G9wBQLYX/5zCTndzaWnt0CS6 7yeEnkivMLd2DlrgQtl+M5pGoj1S6PApzCa5tX3ARhdcsKd1PR6KLlbTqBokvOa+4/Hz aEhbDo+YV6opXr1o6d0lXQ4LaTKrUof0x8NoRvhanj4SwyrjI8aC0meJwO6J5r9abpKW ODk+NwGaRtoBXHsx8bh0MHNGp+IEWXsD9ZynvPV6/4B2wPjNV1owwW3zZLPrMk+kgPA5 5JGg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUC1co+L5tlnq+wsKQ2kWj4/Vdi+B7lkGq4dy0owXS0v/VuqSD/ cWYlysVl0MEZyUlh9giTEU/SxdG+EnPUkQGuXyM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqyXdHDo3Uwd418N3Pp4ie/AvP0nn0n5KXX6C6rgCECasj4CdW47lcUPPxawhmiOxT/sU8CiQ+sVUhAgq1TgbCA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:108a:: with SMTP id o10mr9642468qvr.246.1576179248520; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 11:34:08 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <e56ae49d56e50c40a8e1d279e7d0b2b14761935b.camel@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <e56ae49d56e50c40a8e1d279e7d0b2b14761935b.camel@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 20:33:57 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ0Xi1vi13pogXs=6O-yw3VQwJfLCo2hsxVNEcgbCmctnQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? To: Jesse Gibbons <jgibbons2357@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, On Mon, 9 Dec 2019 at 18:38, Jesse Gibbons <jgibbons2357@HIDDEN> wrote: > for example, "guix environment --pure --ad-hoc pavucontrol -- pavucontrol" > gives me an error: > No protocol specified > Unable to init server: Could not connect: Connection > refused I do not experiment this error. > Similarly, "guix environment --pure --ad-hoc gnubik -- gnubik" gives me an > error: > No protocol specified > > (gnubik:29707): Gtk-WARNING **: 10:03:28.753: cannot open display: :1 I do not experiment this error. > "guix environment --pure --ad-hoc gedit -- gedit": > No protocol specified > Unable to init server: Could not connect: Connection refused > > (org.gnome.gedit:31542): Gtk-WARNING **: 10:08:07.401: cannot open display: > :1 Instead I experiment this warning: (org.gnome.gedit:19087): dconf-WARNING **: 20:31:27.734: failed to commit changes to dconf: Failed to execute child process ?dbus-launch? (No such file or directory) All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 17:47:23 +0100
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Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment
proposed deprecation mechanism
To: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN>
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Hi G=C3=A1bor,
Thank you for summarizing the discussion on IRC that I missed.
Maybe I miss a point. Is the aim to conserve the "--ad-hoc" option
with a different effect? Or why do we want to conserve this option
name?
It appears to me simpler to give another name, for example
"--inputs-of". And it is more meaningful.
To be concrete, the different cases; (-) means current behavior and
(+) the new one:
1.
- guix environment foo
+ guix environment --inputs-of foo
2.
- guix environment --ad-hoc bar
+ guix environment bar
First, when "--ad-hoc" is used then it reports a warning: deprecated
option and falls in the current behavior.
When "--inputs-of" is used then it falls in the new behavior.
Therefore, no needs of the ugly "--ignore-deprecated-ad-hoc".
In other words, with the same future guix version,
# Alice
$ guix environment foo --ad-hoc bar
Warning: deprecated... explanations...
instead use:
guix environment bar --inputs-of foo
# Bob
$ guix environment bar --inputs-of foo
Second, the previous "guix environment foo" (dependencies of foo) is
inconsistent with the new "guix environment bar" (only the package
bar). Therefore, let introduce the GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED
variable to distinguish both, as you said.
# Alice
$ guix environment foo
Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED=3D1
turn off the warning: GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1
And Alice has now a new shell with the package foo. If she wants the
dependencies, she has two options:
$ GUIX_ENVIRONMENT=3D1 guix environment foo
or
$ guix environment --inputs-of foo
# Bob
$ guix environment bar
Warning: previous behavior requires GUIX_ENVIRONMENT
And if Bob is annoyed by the warnings each time, he globally turns off
with the variable GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING=3D1.
Couple of months later -- after the period adoption -- we remove the
variables GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_NOWARNING and GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED;
still keeping the warning with the "--ad-hoc" option. And then, after
we can remove the "--ad-hoc" option if required.
Maybe a miss a point. But the addition of the flag appears
"--too-long-to-type" to me ugly.
What do you think?
All the best,
simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 12 Dec 2019 11:24:03 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 12 06:24:03 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59091 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ifMZf-00050V-5y for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 06:24:03 -0500 Received: from mail-ed1-f48.google.com ([209.85.208.48]:41401) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <boskovits@HIDDEN>) id 1ifMZd-0004zu-Gv for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 06:24:01 -0500 Received: by mail-ed1-f48.google.com with SMTP id c26so1476333eds.8 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 03:24:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=gaTw6OIQ/0DnYikjerPQ3r1fjBEqBv2S/Xo+2LIYxTg=; b=DT7RU6NoRA1xvJOKfLS0vJnwBw26rmcf9HCV7AIDqp4gjlKkaR3BzhbQocyWE820ay Vx44lNNYcVW2NE5ms3F6UgmYCMXHk0n3ArbNwJDlxjGyjcsVFPaTr0omL8nd0IdJz4Y+ Up3vaBWQ7nU3HlegZOHOai+NtD+MbkYbvEm0fp/aQFene73XPjJoaQgo2QXLEsHXtiFa 6dpOPEWyJup35BITiU+iYLzzGI3BwyzkSEV2/clkAXFRtBXeFwTU+XDH8kaxSp9qMKSQ outhzMXTleCmWiPyM7vSbjphqbw5ha4J7mbT8OYE+7+odGtnr1163TOAwwYOKFrqHbww /+Cg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=gaTw6OIQ/0DnYikjerPQ3r1fjBEqBv2S/Xo+2LIYxTg=; b=FGN0wUQc0D6NBPW9Sr/5ccwetcgT08hRgi8JmpDVLtIVtm28Wed5puMwTQrNX7C0hZ FYRaA71m1Bu8fKkt398i/yRgppCAKXQpw2BAKpKIeaaVpDBCMXkF13SjeRaWddwNRKmc 5lGI1XE/A1D29flxz5O0gQG7L/LIzHsi35zbOeNmA84qucHQhoBx+TM+b00KIB+w/69K 4XTnC1R4wCfK0X1ett77a9+/vwJ5FqXHqSG3zX/S0h2USOfJIE330bATSVJeL+Cg1DxF C7ksDp6/w4ERPLTCuuP1g42LFshFvpNweDMQVDX/8V4gCvyopeJiEBjhLi5XlIcWKJBz VZwQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAVYxq+x3qKPmn+o50JqBsYFLpqgO5mAvt5QeVbfiVHp73MsmMNr HY7GDU28WSRwsOIAIIWGwi+0uhvsS5FL5hsQIg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqysKgFEUDFqS/6tbgotdkVPsnBY+5Up9KAiF/kcaNFAKu/n5vssVVqdffDkdbX8sGMMIIBgs0RmEq4eizcTKos= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:8394:: with SMTP id p20mr9236621ejx.136.1576149835556; Thu, 12 Dec 2019 03:23:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> From: =?UTF-8?Q?G=C3=A1bor_Boskovits?= <boskovits@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2019 12:23:44 +0100 Message-ID: <CAE4v=phY+7CTKMf8Y3a9p4okfqtMGOWu9kd2Nu6oCJW8OsK3Lw@HIDDEN> Subject: Make --ad-hoc the default for guix environment proposed deprecation mechanism To: Guix-devel <guix-devel@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hello guix, Based on discussion on IRC the following plan for deprecation might work. Comments are welcome: 1. Make guix environment aware of an environment variable: GUIX_ENVIRONMENT_DEPRECATED_AD_HOC if this is defined, then fall back to the current behaviour. Motivation: this would enable most script users to bypass the problem, while fixing them, but it makes the users aware that they are using a deprecated feature. At the same time this should come with a news entry, an any other announcements should be made that we usually do, so that support don't get overloaded. Is should also be announced that two releases later the code supporting this will be removed, so that we don't have to maintain it, but allow enough time for adoption. 2. add a flag to guix environment, something like --ignore-deprecated-ad-hoc, that makes guix environment ignore the environment variable, and default to the new behaviour. Motivation: so that scripts can be fixed individually by modifying the guix environment call to the new version, and adding the flag, so that it does not cause a problem in the trasitional period while the environment variable is defined. 3. on the specified release remove the environment variable support code, and make the flag a noop, and also deprecated. 4. later if needed after an adoption period we can remove the flag. Best regards, g_bor -- OpenPGP Key Fingerprint: 7988:3B9F:7D6A:4DBF:3719:0367:2506:A96C:CF63:0B21
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 10 Dec 2019 17:16:35 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 10 12:16:35 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56532 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iej7j-0001Ro-If for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:16:35 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:57758) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1iej7i-0001Rc-DV for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:16:34 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:55919) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1iej7c-0000Jd-U0; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:16:28 -0500 Received: from [2001:660:6102:320:e120:2c8f:8909:cdfe] (port=53704 helo=ribbon) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <ludo@HIDDEN>) id 1iej7b-0004lF-OS; Tue, 10 Dec 2019 12:16:28 -0500 From: =?utf-8?Q?Ludovic_Court=C3=A8s?= <ludo@HIDDEN> To: "Thompson\, David" <dthompson2@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAJ=RwfabiMuyx_JXP+KU76kCCRAX0zofN14YJ5wEi-YMwNW_YQ@HIDDEN> X-URL: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ X-Revolutionary-Date: 20 Frimaire an 228 de la =?utf-8?Q?R=C3=A9volution?= X-PGP-Key-ID: 0x090B11993D9AEBB5 X-PGP-Key: http://www.fdn.fr/~lcourtes/ludovic.asc X-PGP-Fingerprint: 3CE4 6455 8A84 FDC6 9DB4 0CFB 090B 1199 3D9A EBB5 X-OS: x86_64-pc-linux-gnu Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2019 18:16:26 +0100 In-Reply-To: <CAJ=RwfabiMuyx_JXP+KU76kCCRAX0zofN14YJ5wEi-YMwNW_YQ@HIDDEN> (David Thompson's message of "Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:46:20 -0500") Message-ID: <87o8wgksnp.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) Hello! "Thompson, David" <dthompson2@HIDDEN> skribis: > I have long thought that --ad-hoc should be implied, as that is the > mode I use 99% of the time, but I disagree that --pure should be the > default. I very much agree with that. I don=E2=80=99t think =E2=80=98--pure=E2=80= =99 should be the default, because there are valid use cases for that. As for =E2=80=98--ad-hoc=E2=80=99: making it the default is technically eas= y. The difficulty is to come up with a nice transition/deprecation mechanism so that we don=E2=80=99t break everyone=E2=80=99s script overnight. Ideas on how to achieve it are welcome! Thanks, Ludo=E2=80=99.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2019 20:17:42 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 09 15:17:41 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54454 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1iePTR-0000S9-Lo for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 15:17:41 -0500 Received: from mout01.posteo.de ([185.67.36.65]:39755) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <brettg@HIDDEN>) id 1iePTO-0000Rs-HE for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 15:17:39 -0500 Received: from submission (posteo.de [89.146.220.130]) by mout01.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00AF9160062 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 9 Dec 2019 21:17:31 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.net; s=2017; t=1575922652; bh=2ANSwyXjO2aPKJuJfe22hxsIWmAzhXjAREt1pW9SBaA=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:Date:From; b=cmkmo2SxSfULSm9maN/STgk7fCUd44ic5Repfw3e8Av2CdoeuPsQink9Uq7cH+RyL 3nU9vV0saC4LZs2YhXaOqFj3SOTOPbEVFcriuQqNfMNQBcI+yskv5WRxGDf+Xz6OWC HlId9Zs5m/wFADCJDks7+PTAVddsDx93mK8xqmC1q4VbNF4u1wXaM+PXdEvQGzDpJK /DZ6KElvA9HjHZP9NwgVefz4s5Mt3BJ0UC84F/b4NAcyncobdU5lJmccUBva1nJc24 6/FkcMKdqYyP9pNKuHY2tt6dy20WJkJFtIddiDnNK2zR2nJDrxpt4+BKqrZuoCqY39 zzqRuwxkvPUrA== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 47Wvck2Bdmz6tmK; Mon, 9 Dec 2019 21:17:25 +0100 (CET) From: Brett Gilio <brettg@HIDDEN> To: "Thompson\, David" <dthompson2@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> <CAJ=RwfabiMuyx_JXP+KU76kCCRAX0zofN14YJ5wEi-YMwNW_YQ@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 14:17:24 -0600 In-Reply-To: <CAJ=RwfabiMuyx_JXP+KU76kCCRAX0zofN14YJ5wEi-YMwNW_YQ@HIDDEN> (David Thompson's message of "Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:46:20 -0500") Message-ID: <87blshuucr.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) "Thompson, David" <dthompson2@HIDDEN> writes: > Hi, > > I have long thought that --ad-hoc should be implied, as that is the > mode I use 99% of the time, but I disagree that --pure should be the > default. Most of the time I (and I suspect most other users) just want > to temporarily augment the current environment with a package or two > and I think that shouldn't require any special flags (neither --ad-hoc > nor --pure). The current default behavior of making an environment > from package dependencies is because that's how nix-shell worked (or > at least how I thought it worked) and 'guix environment' was created > as a clone of that tool. > > - Dave I was waiting for somebody to say this. But, I am 100% in agreement with Dave as far as the behavior of --pure. I really would like to see either nothing change, or we make --ad-hoc the implied default. My reasoning confers with Dave's logic. -- Brett M. Gilio https://git.sr.ht/~brettgilio/
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2019 18:46:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 09 13:46:39 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54419 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ieO3L-0005k0-9Q for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 13:46:39 -0500 Received: from mail-vs1-f42.google.com ([209.85.217.42]:33892) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <dthompson2@HIDDEN>) id 1ieO3J-0005jj-Ep for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 13:46:38 -0500 Received: by mail-vs1-f42.google.com with SMTP id g15so11109253vsf.1 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 10:46:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=worcester-edu.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=POzIvzoaNBi6tgQOpEc0XlYBz9Ew73t4hg3H88JMKwY=; b=h9O1YXXqc3V+HFvKIysK2JL1a0nQFP1+bTb3Rpx/Duf7PvMn5fR5oMEEQAcCVWh+rz Qc7zUi0/qvDh8DLidMkuRO25e2iY/BA2sUX9krKIWgzUEgyLMkUNKyS654wTFeWrwgTX 4Cs/bOdMekurtpi5y33SfSsuPcT8porHywZrpjgA9b3EU8PpDApqSc1FjrR5+ez+UoVn tusOYs0y/0DYrzKehM249S7tQX1utYOjlXSnt87o7WFwgNfKje7gMr96J8ayxTEdhwJW GSFOEFVVGPe8QvXL/Q8DLMRp0A9KQgQ9ZddRsfpgLax/YPj1/8ByBDuWLFQFt6XuV+yX a6CQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=POzIvzoaNBi6tgQOpEc0XlYBz9Ew73t4hg3H88JMKwY=; b=NgnETbpoK2j1LdoGWZASpSiPAw1dJUAnTffrgdxdqEGkU8SpKk5tDjJLDW36zlBMb3 W4w3YDe0EHDj1jTkqykcKshSyuywkcA3uEu4rNouV3NbEznp6l8MgBe+i8qNr8+VWVcj XfAVR3dNt4hK0O2q4VjXPQ21RvhjJ4jEnbZD45Ergjfp38iqhM1oNwUOXMUhLh8q0L6/ fIZpYmDfrFvABSs6ye00Kp2V2xC0UyBa0U5I6ShotFAmbE4cxp5Z7OQ9ZLdZP30spfBm 9+iDUHhqG85jOKEhpfEemDSbpDVJva9KZKMdTMYAJmV23U6sQYuj5Dj6khMa9w8IFcNd wJrg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAWSA810bQZBzUbARq7clihULJPkv7a2xMZzMzo19XT8Tvv2EEbg cf2BwAGVGehZc6w6g+SU829nIfiKN8tHYyroxJb19w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqz9aGRVOaDcEPICDIlc1uaXvEg/yY1Mc0GdCfBrfCM+jUfmoOEQxTza2Kc2ObgkZbs6oUGqudKcT0g1PY2l9Sg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:5e5:: with SMTP id w5mr18066559vsf.163.1575917191832; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 10:46:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> From: "Thompson, David" <dthompson2@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2019 13:46:20 -0500 Message-ID: <CAJ=RwfabiMuyx_JXP+KU76kCCRAX0zofN14YJ5wEi-YMwNW_YQ@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? To: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi, I have long thought that --ad-hoc should be implied, as that is the mode I use 99% of the time, but I disagree that --pure should be the default. Most of the time I (and I suspect most other users) just want to temporarily augment the current environment with a package or two and I think that shouldn't require any special flags (neither --ad-hoc nor --pure). The current default behavior of making an environment from package dependencies is because that's how nix-shell worked (or at least how I thought it worked) and 'guix environment' was created as a clone of that tool. - Dave
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2019 17:37:22 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 09 12:37:22 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54401 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ieMyH-0003T2-SQ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 12:37:22 -0500 Received: from mail-pg1-f173.google.com ([209.85.215.173]:45310) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <jgibbons2357@HIDDEN>) id 1ieMyG-0003Sq-MF for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 12:37:21 -0500 Received: by mail-pg1-f173.google.com with SMTP id b9so7058409pgk.12 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:37:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=message-id:subject:from:to:in-reply-to:references:date:mime-version :user-agent:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UBWw84kW4/k8mS/Odoggyg0V0O/qQ4idirnEGZtTH1E=; b=UQ3fDK+wiUIYsc23GtOw9d1IiwmbEpJsDJNTxG5U2MwGqIgNGXfmAP3DykC4drYbDC WMmxBznHLbvMz4OZMU0nUhc0j1csdEUmY7QteDrgfCBNC1Z/P4bwD3ROJfHI1C1vTz7k u6wCE/6SfnwrF/vZf1Bgrysj4sbxHlaivOTBFIZQ9c2w9F0GM1M5dkjAbdUC45ZFSMCA wpM1lYpF/EtKkwwYzMqZFnh4yjoS1w9V+lKYLB97mY2ziUAScppBzTO9RzT3KH7fryv9 IYVQEtpUbMJuQ0UoY9mkRCV5eU0T7qOyA5k6pq+dxNoQz1i1gpKUCOdwVF6Rf7MuoCXO XtYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:subject:from:to:in-reply-to :references:date:mime-version:user-agent:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UBWw84kW4/k8mS/Odoggyg0V0O/qQ4idirnEGZtTH1E=; b=FX/YHLB8gSkXHT/J+nL9qUuYIvoNY8LpY0TyELgHWM0Ecas1ELD+AUzSkUj93aAqz8 LuYwz8uvTTAWY4o7igq0cyn6kFJr+ZldHeAkvVt1be8RzFDBAYZ///IYfQxD3Q9JwHPK KsEgesHdXrbtTeylKA69sksThPWO4U7auDTwRmVEibYi6uVp6eNwM77jGTqQAmFONg9Q 9BlCv0XgGEIwMfCRCf8ygwX7WQMZs0f6nROJmk/ZExLVzykbwaI0E5AauaQ/wCTv5+A8 D1YwJn/t6DJiOeRMangEIB9uVxb3k5Fjy6t0oAZfGzc39jI7rCROwCXPVGFfz3YcgXU8 VrKA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAUuDjWGONICgwE1suGtBDFrZ7hqOpMoH9coDA/sS6Qa2XRIkwGB OYU4TbsUcUgW0tYbrsKmfufV5u4I X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzCngLuAaJLBtKBuXIqiDW/d76ciSsHdLBvynQWhW4rknnpqMXQbGQZNuKy8ugTf2Fiqy6A1g== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:8d45:: with SMTP id s5mr7021179pfe.148.1575913034687; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:37:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from piranhaplant.local ([199.68.53.171]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id b7sm42117pjo.3.2019.12.09.09.37.13 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 09 Dec 2019 09:37:13 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <e56ae49d56e50c40a8e1d279e7d0b2b14761935b.camel@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? From: Jesse Gibbons <jgibbons2357@HIDDEN> To: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN>, 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org In-Reply-To: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 10:37:12 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Evolution 3.30.5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) On Sun, 2019-12-08 at 16:42 +0100, Pierre Neidhardt wrote: > --pure seems to be the more sensible behaviour. "Impure" environments > can have unexpected behaviours, so it makes sense to only allow them > when the user explicitly asks for it. > --pure environments sometimes miss important environment variables. Try running any app that depends on X and doesn't fallback to a console mode in a pure environment. for example, "guix environment --pure --ad-hoc pavucontrol -- pavucontrol" gives me an error: No protocol specified Unable to init server: Could not connect: Connection refused Similarly, "guix environment --pure --ad-hoc gnubik -- gnubik" gives me an error: No protocol specified (gnubik:29707): Gtk-WARNING **: 10:03:28.753: cannot open display: :1 "guix environment --pure --ad-hoc gedit -- gedit": No protocol specified Unable to init server: Could not connect: Connection refused (org.gnome.gedit:31542): Gtk-WARNING **: 10:08:07.401: cannot open display: :1 Making --pure the default for "guix environment" would make things more complicated for users wanting to temporarily run GUI apps unless we fix this issue first. I furthermore suspect some tests fail because of this issue.
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 Dec 2019 05:23:18 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Dec 09 00:23:18 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52505 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ieBVt-0000O7-Td for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 00:23:18 -0500 Received: from mail-qv1-f53.google.com ([209.85.219.53]:41256) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN>) id 1ieBVs-0000Np-FO for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 Dec 2019 00:23:16 -0500 Received: by mail-qv1-f53.google.com with SMTP id b18so2176470qvo.8 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 21:23:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version; bh=QlxLMicTrL3L18KMTrjDdAM7XYirktxmp8eUBeQ5Lu8=; b=iJU3mix0+NPWUbS019ue2fs8nwkdxQX6zqybQ1lxncR45nq4QAm5bTDas5FdJ3V86y HugDWyXQ8BZdTkUtIibO4CyyZ5s70hcmRZ8VvSZKnBtFCdbVTNKJzpflvPtLlIjf9gSN //zYC7hxWzpLy1eqFOLM7dmTdZDDHP0FO5v7Wy3XVMzzwCxoUpbPtuLGbuY5x44zvEGG 3obZQw57Dj2Y8xYAZqDlVgbxouPECUPGFh0K60kV3NMCQaMpsWt3PPirgVrGDhMMnfkI FqY1VLsO0prrX+f2TQCv07vusNAx54nIYBFE6jv/7+gP+WLM0qxbUrEeAZOk84zhAVb3 ltBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version; bh=QlxLMicTrL3L18KMTrjDdAM7XYirktxmp8eUBeQ5Lu8=; b=LNa/aVGNPJspF6WpG2xzU++ZXHvlcSATNFXD6ktzYI+Ni+BuM604LjLi5xkr5hkJKD oZOESkPyw3G+wz5BFlsOvueF1PLPst9cur/lcXuiaN4zkSbUj5oAAy+8W9lgkECR8kGn WBY9w3Q7ycw3aCZ2VAkLhUguL20e4fOWURro+qB3JDZv0pgRYEGhGO1VNttnJgvJME08 IJaw4xHU6kStNbOngh9cvTA3cTue0DjumDIcogc2iOIP5vevtwf5cT+fA9xXIX+e1okD r2E2i4dG3q/h2v8LQmXlEssdbG0LC+Y++Z+DeGrjUNiz2KtYkVP5E8GbWNTuc/mG4T52 Qpcg== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXqiKRkUQRRs0xhuJUnTML9uUrYgTLbRFvgzKBdDL7ReiawRzu+ K5Z6eR0gV8pxnoXQUZoiy74kJ6/h X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqzQXIoALwDQAjRZGhfn2VnOiUhMCa9rEH6/kVhEsAr9mSRo3P/9sM3UhThA0fao5gbXOGGYdw== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:8c3:: with SMTP id da3mr21646111qvb.249.1575868990717; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 21:23:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from x200 ([204.48.76.45]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x19sm7145517qtm.47.2019.12.08.21.23.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 08 Dec 2019 21:23:10 -0800 (PST) From: Maxim Cournoyer <maxim.cournoyer@HIDDEN> To: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2019 14:23:07 +0900 In-Reply-To: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> (Pierre Neidhardt's message of "Sun, 08 Dec 2019 16:42:07 +0100") Message-ID: <87tv6aoyx0.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Score: -0.1 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) Hi Pierre, Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN> writes: > --pure seems to be the more sensible behaviour. "Impure" environments > can have unexpected behaviours, so it makes sense to only allow them > when the user explicitly asks for it. Unfortunately Guix packages often don't work well with --pure. Be it magit that depends on git, or Emacs that depend or coreutils, etc., there are many things that are expected to be propagated and aren't explicitly, by omission or sometimes for closure's size sake (when the feature is optional). We could argue that is a good reason for the proposed change :-). I think environments are great mostly for hacking and trying stuff quickly, where the guarantees of Guix do not matter as much as for profiles (and if they did, you'd be better with guix environment --container anyway). So, I guess that makes me more on the side of "let's no change the defaults for now". Maxim
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
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bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at 38529) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2019 21:03:55 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 08 16:03:55 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52297 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1ie3ic-0003Xi-1e for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 16:03:54 -0500 Received: from mail-qt1-f178.google.com ([209.85.160.178]:40688) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN>) id 1ie3ia-0003XW-EA for 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 16:03:52 -0500 Received: by mail-qt1-f178.google.com with SMTP id t17so6846513qtr.7 for <38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 13:03:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aLnTjjhi0I0Iu07t7xVuxQq405awNn/1ci+4V/YgOPI=; b=gq6m0k25SIPAWgODGZklnqfkcUdMWgy9NDo9bs5kaZLsbYouKRm78e4ZTw4lCuZAUk Hhg9eAOj8eQ+BjssyOrg7rAJTXTd2d1BNHLpniwMpcxTRsxX0Yg7PNFNaLgelm3k+JiL aJukc9hevIaQK061I44epL6zOEzD+ODyvW/qCiYmK+paPkzomH2o37k5RJTNpJB+R1e2 Zu30lqw+yo+E7AVuiKvEUdnXQY+4kAxeOUwMQoCzl2PjSiT7rrq+oLeely2lpa7yjqbw DkQAnN8Pl/w8MnTJYhX1uDQvlg42xZIOwYs+IxA6cjjOKZNmBXi7xn7TzcyHS4/yhwo5 z/gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aLnTjjhi0I0Iu07t7xVuxQq405awNn/1ci+4V/YgOPI=; b=C6PhvZRCwmJWZHFLlsRQWh7+8u6mW9gNzngJxRcZPFYBVfxBiK9eCt6OWDVjJ3UHp/ zFKyLz6dTrE8rfYJ9OeBuCYlnBrkrnsb+6KUYCJB5C/ohQtF+SdVOqQquB/YG/HhFJqW 4VBn9Og5a6A8Neh5onWnZvWxAZ3mv0aXkO5UHPwxf2Fq725yE/pLfzym1LDTqZfExTJx x2/uAiZ9eIcJz7UMkZ7Fol5YgtBQ8oU0TUm/3ySMVT9wZkDg1V44r9//19VfEIZrydZr hwUuMWTOj1jxZRJoK6TgF/gqRUhXa1Gl0rYaILACFv6DA24spgYWJzN4STvFuiPOr7e3 VWTA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXKI5y2NBV3xKhDHYWFTEXGgU/W+nNybP/NoahWzY8mfyaT0aMy n9MNrF/SjIYbKSM0NJc+Tu5sLD7dG/eExpu8Y4k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqy7LfaKdsFzg7Di9t0KQ5fUD65JHDnWG4OwlhpM7LqZgK+y8S2FY4w5yeV360QKoVXj08fd36+hVyMD8dfX5Kg= X-Received: by 2002:aed:2270:: with SMTP id o45mr22436606qtc.217.1575839027062; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 13:03:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> From: zimoun <zimon.toutoune@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2019 22:03:35 +0100 Message-ID: <CAJ3okZ3WnG87m=jQw08M9ER+=9FS0NVx=uALHK_-4LuD50KhvA@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#38529: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? To: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 38529 Cc: 38529 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Hi Pierre, I agree. And also change the default which populates by the dependencies. Something like: guix environment foo --inputs-of bar should spawn an environment containing foo and the dependencies bar. Well, keeping the --ad-hoc option for compatibility. What do you think? All the best, simon
bug-guix@HIDDEN:bug#38529; Package guix.
Full text available.Received: (at submit) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Dec 2019 15:42:15 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Dec 08 10:42:15 2019 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:52071 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1idyhK-0007w4-OO for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 10:42:14 -0500 Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]:56779) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mail@HIDDEN>) id 1idyhI-0007vw-PA for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 10:42:13 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:59417) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <mail@HIDDEN>) id 1idyhH-0003iU-Jy for bug-guix@HIDDEN; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 10:42:12 -0500 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.2 (2011-06-06) on eggs.gnu.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.1 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_50,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW, URIBL_BLOCKED autolearn=disabled version=3.3.2 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <mail@HIDDEN>) id 1idyhG-0007Tc-Es for bug-guix@HIDDEN; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 10:42:11 -0500 Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.195]:49539) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from <mail@HIDDEN>) id 1idyhG-0007Ib-6D for bug-guix@HIDDEN; Sun, 08 Dec 2019 10:42:10 -0500 X-Originating-IP: 92.169.151.76 Received: from bababa (lfbn-1-4156-76.w92-169.abo.wanadoo.fr [92.169.151.76]) (Authenticated sender: mail@HIDDEN) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0F4E360005 for <bug-guix@HIDDEN>; Sun, 8 Dec 2019 15:42:07 +0000 (UTC) From: Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN> To: bug-guix@HIDDEN Subject: Make --pure the default for `guix environment'? Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2019 16:42:07 +0100 Message-ID: <87eexeu8mo.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 217.70.183.195 X-Spam-Score: 0.9 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: submit X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.1 (--) --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =2D-pure seems to be the more sensible behaviour. "Impure" environments can have unexpected behaviours, so it makes sense to only allow them when the user explicitly asks for it. =2D-=20 Pierre Neidhardt https://ambrevar.xyz/ --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCAAdFiEEUPM+LlsMPZAEJKvom9z0l6S7zH8FAl3tGc8ACgkQm9z0l6S7 zH/MHQgApSwFQkblgyaCyxB1Sg11edxeCLCPTDaJClGB9KCfvxpQUXTniTxvwPD/ 5y/P12V+MinvUKRm3zHucKkurbfikL9GkTw1A589fvrAqiRbM86aoImkumttJp5u 6DQIkRY6WMlB+yGx3T/reFe/Be3G4fNnXCe6POPap98jWQY2vJPOPNsMPtXliS5a iOzOHxCbElpIIUejyl0vbQkzrNXqn5Y95yn2Ymy1FahTjHwmscziYRZsnY2Km+W4 Ew15gj7wzBPmCq1QeJ9jsoFynOV7pXZnOdA9RBOSZu0kGvXFZkVXdTtrqv8/Lg31 mS9FNKno/LsaFqqm4jOBm96Ze3OhIw== =MXkn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--
Pierre Neidhardt <mail@HIDDEN>:bug-guix@HIDDEN.
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Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham,
1997 nCipher Corporation Ltd,
1994-97 Ian Jackson.