GNU bug report logs - #38807
[Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web workers.

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Package: emacs; Severity: wishlist; Reported by: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>; dated Mon, 30 Dec 2019 05:29:02 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 10:41:51 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Ivan Yonchovski <yyoncho@HIDDEN>
Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e800af4_4b683d0d_6dce
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM2:15=EF=BC=8CIvan Yo=
nchovski <yyoncho=40gmail.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> Eli Zaretskii writes:
>
> > Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help
> > to run some of this processing in a separate thread=3F
>
> The user might not want to wait for the completion but he/she might wan=
t
> to continue to type while the parsing is taking place. The effect is
> that the typing feels slugish. IME with latest native json parsing this=

> is no longer the case for lsp-mode.
>
>
> With my limited understanding of emacs internals I see 2 potential
> solutions to allow writing of =22lisp workers=22.
>
> 1. Start second(or multiple) elisp interpreter in the emacs process
> which has thread local copy of all of the global data(buffers, data
> allocation, etc). It may or may not have a gui attached to it. In
> addition to that, introduce primitives for moving elisp datastructure
> from the background thread to the main UI thread and vice versa
> eventually by coping the original structure to avoid bugs.
>

I=E2=80=99d like not expose any global data to them. Even the data alloca=
tion can be standalone. Then they pass lisp object by coping as you said.=


> 2. Make the functions that create elisp datastructures threadsafe(or
> some sane subset) and expose them to the dynamic modules.
>
> Thanks,
> Ivan

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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8827=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM2:15=EF=BC=8CIvan Yonchovski &lt;yyoncho@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=
=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
Eli Zaretskii writes:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Since the user waits f=
or this job to finish anyway, why does it help<br>
to run some of this processing in a separate thread?<br></blockquote>
<br>
The user might not want to wait for the completion but he/she might want<br=
>
to continue to type while the parsing is taking place. The effect is<br>
that the typing feels slugish. IME with latest native json parsing this<br>
is no longer the case for lsp-mode.<br>
<br>
<br>
With my limited understanding of emacs internals I see 2 potential<br>
solutions to allow writing of &quot;lisp workers&quot;.<br>
<br>
1. Start second(or multiple) elisp interpreter in the emacs process<br>
which has thread local copy of all of the global data(buffers, data<br>
allocation, etc). It may or may not have a gui attached to it. In<br>
addition to that, introduce primitives for moving elisp datastructure<br>
from the background thread to the main UI thread and vice versa<br>
eventually by coping the original structure to avoid bugs.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I=E2=80=99d like not expose any global data to them. Even=
 the data allocation can be standalone. Then they pass lisp object by copin=
g as you said.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">2. Make the functions =
that create elisp datastructures threadsafe(or<br>
some sane subset) and expose them to the dynamic modules.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Ivan<br></blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e800af4_4b683d0d_6dce--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2020 10:12:10 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho@HIDDEN
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:44=EF=BC=8CEli Za=
retskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:37:39 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: michael.albinus=40gmx.de, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho=40gmai=
l.com
> >
> > I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question:
> > while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it=
,
> > or will it do something else=3F Can you describe how this would work
> > using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on
> > program symbols=3F
> >
> > 1 After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a c=
ompletion task. The task has a task id.
> > The lsp-mode saves the task id as the current task and bind a callbac=
k function to it. It then returns.
> > 2 The module create a task and adds it to its task queue.
> > 3 The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue an=
d executes it. It builds the json-rpc
> > request and sends it to the lsp server. And then it waits for the rep=
ly from the lsp server.
> > 4 The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json m=
essage and builds the completion
> > result to a list(in lisp).
> > 5 The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes th=
e task id and the completion
> > result.
> > 6 Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by callin=
g a function in lsp-mode). The
> > function checks that it is the result of the completion ask and call =
the task callback function which will
> > popups a menu to display the completion items.
>
> If the above describes what happens when the user requests completion,
> then I deduce that the user waits for the entire process you described
> to finish, because the user cannot continue without seeing the
> completion candidates, and those are only available after item 6 above
> is done.
>

It doesn=E2=80=99t need to wait. When it needs completion, it setup a tas=
k with a task id. If the completion result doesn=E2=80=99t arrive before =
user input next char. It doesn=E2=80=99t display completion menu. And aft=
er user input another =C2=A0char it setup another task with a new task id=
 and the old task id is retired now.=C2=A0Then if the completion result f=
or the old task arrives, it just discards it. It only displays completion=
 menu when the completion result for the current valid task arrives.

Or when lsp add a new completion task to module, the module will know tha=
t the old task is cancelled. And it will not send the old completion resu=
lt to emacs. This will save more power.

> Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help
> to run some of this processing in a separate thread=3F
>
> > It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It =
will be
> > better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp=
 thread.
> >
> > Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think
> > I understand what you mean by =22send Lisp data=22 -- how (in what fo=
rm)
> > can Lisp data be sent=3F
> >
> > It can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which c=
an be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to
> > use.
>
> A Lisp object that is not stored in the data structures maintained by
> alloc.c is not really a Lisp object that has a meaning for Emacs, I
> think.
>

It will be great if emacs support this.

> > My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp d=
ata. Maybe we can prepare
> > data with its
> > format and let it deserialize them.
> >
> > But we already do that: the libjansson library =22serializes=22 the d=
ata,
> > and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the
> > library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying
> > to make shorter.
> >
> > Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c++ an=
d gocode for golang. They work very
> > smoothly.
> >
> > Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several we=
eks. It doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly
> > as the above tools. It lags.
> >
> > I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too ma=
ny(about 10=7E30) json messages
> > arrived after I input every char. Emacs has to parse and process all =
of them on every key pressing.
> >
> > =46or the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messag=
es arrived on every key pressing.
> >
> > Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify t=
hem.
>
> I don't think I understand how this is related to the serialization
> issue and the pdumper.

Because the most of the above json messages is empty diagnostic messages.=
 I think lsp-mode will do nothing with them except parsing them. I need p=
rofiling it.

Many people says that lsp in vim works smoothly. I don=E2=80=99t know if =
it supports same features with lsp in emacs. I will try it and compare th=
em.


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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
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itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM10:44=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020=
 21:37:39 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho@HIDDEN<br>
<br>
I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question:<br>
while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it,<br>
or will it do something else? Can you describe how this would work<br>
using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on<br>
program symbols?<br>
<br>
1 After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a complet=
ion task. The task has a task id.<br>
The lsp-mode saves the task id as the current task and bind a callback func=
tion to it. It then returns.<br>
2 The module create a task and adds it to its task queue.<br>
3 The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and exec=
utes it. It builds the json-rpc<br>
request and sends it to the lsp server. And then it waits for the reply fro=
m the lsp server.<br>
4 The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json message=
 and builds the completion<br>
result to a list(in lisp).<br>
5 The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the task=
 id and the completion<br>
result.<br>
6 Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a fu=
nction in lsp-mode). The<br>
function checks that it is the result of the completion ask and call the ta=
sk callback function which will<br>
popups a menu to display the completion items.<br></blockquote>
<br>
If the above describes what happens when the user requests completion,<br>
then I deduce that the user waits for the entire process you described<br>
to finish, because the user cannot continue without seeing the<br>
completion candidates, and those are only available after item 6 above<br>
is done.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">It doesn=E2=80=99t need to wait. When it needs completion=
, it setup a task with a task id. If the completion result doesn=E2=80=99t =
arrive before user input next char. It doesn=E2=80=99t display completion m=
enu. And after user input another &nbsp;char it setup another task with a n=
ew task id and the old task id is retired now.&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: v=
ar(--textColor); background-color: var(--backgroundColor);">Then if the com=
pletion result for the old task arrives, it just discards it. It only displ=
ays completion menu when the completion result for the current valid task a=
rrives.&nbsp;</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
Or when lsp add a new completion task to module, the module will know that =
the old task is cancelled. And it will not send the old completion result t=
o emacs. This will save more power.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">Since the user waits f=
or this job to finish anyway, why does it help<br>
to run some of this processing in a separate thread?<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">It will be good if mod=
ule thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be<br>
better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp threa=
d.<br>
<br>
Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think<br>
I understand what you mean by &quot;send Lisp data&quot; -- how (in what fo=
rm)<br>
can Lisp data be sent?<br>
<br>
It can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which can be =
passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to<br>
use.<br></blockquote>
<br>
A Lisp object that is not stored in the data structures maintained by<br>
alloc.c is not really a Lisp object that has a meaning for Emacs, I<br>
think.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">It will be great if emacs support this.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">My understanding is th=
at pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. Maybe we can prepare<br=
>
data with its<br>
format and let it deserialize them.<br>
<br>
But we already do that: the libjansson library &quot;serializes&quot; the d=
ata,<br>
and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the<br>
library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying<br>
to make shorter.<br>
<br>
Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c&#43;&#43; =
and gocode for golang. They work very<br>
smoothly.<br>
<br>
Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several weeks. I=
t doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly<br>
as the above tools. It lags.<br>
<br>
I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too many(abo=
ut 10~30) json messages<br>
arrived after I input every char. Emacs has to parse and process all of the=
m on every key pressing.<br>
<br>
For the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messages arriv=
ed on every key pressing.<br>
<br>
Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify them.<b=
r></blockquote>
<br>
I don't think I understand how this is related to the serialization<br>
issue and the pdumper.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Because the most of the above json messages is empty diag=
nostic messages. I think lsp-mode will do nothing with them except parsing =
them. I need profiling it.</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<div dir=3D"auto">Many people says that lsp in vim works smoothly. I don=E2=
=80=99t know if it supports same features with lsp in emacs. I will try it =
and compare them.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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User-agent: mu4e 1.3.7; emacs 27.0.60
From: Ivan Yonchovski <yyoncho@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
In-reply-to: <837dz79nvh.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 20:14:58 +0200
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Eli Zaretskii writes:

> Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help
> to run some of this processing in a separate thread?

The user might not want to wait for the completion but he/she might want
to continue to type while the parsing is taking place. The effect is
that the typing feels slugish. IME with latest native json parsing this
is no longer the case for lsp-mode.


With my limited understanding of emacs internals I see 2 potential
solutions to allow writing of "lisp workers".

1. Start second(or multiple) elisp interpreter in the emacs process
which has thread local copy of all of the global data(buffers, data
allocation, etc). It may or may not have a gui attached to it. In
addition to that, introduce primitives for moving elisp datastructure
from the background thread to the main UI thread and vice versa
eventually by coping the original structure to avoid bugs.

2. Make the functions that create elisp datastructures threadsafe(or
some sane subset) and expose them to the dynamic modules.

Thanks,
Ivan




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 16:44:50 +0200
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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <PS1PR03MB3606A0A1BDB6AEA35777A7E0B7CF0@HIDDEN>
 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:37:39 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
References: <aade4dc9-4992-4751-9706-9802389ff732@Spark>
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> Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 21:37:39 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho@HIDDEN
> 
>  I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question:
>  while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it,
>  or will it do something else? Can you describe how this would work
>  using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on
>  program symbols?
> 
> 1 After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a completion task. The task has a task id.
>  The lsp-mode saves the task id as the current task and bind a callback function to it. It then returns.
> 2 The module create a task and adds it to its task queue.
> 3 The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and executes it. It builds the json-rpc
>  request and sends it to the lsp server. And then it waits for the reply from the lsp server.
> 4 The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json message and builds the completion
>  result to a list(in lisp).
> 5 The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the task id and the completion
>  result.
> 6 Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a function in lsp-mode). The
>  function checks that it is the result of the completion ask and call the task callback function which will
>  popups a menu to display the completion items.

If the above describes what happens when the user requests completion,
then I deduce that the user waits for the entire process you described
to finish, because the user cannot continue without seeing the
completion candidates, and those are only available after item 6 above
is done.

Since the user waits for this job to finish anyway, why does it help
to run some of this processing in a separate thread?

>  It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be
>  better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp thread.
> 
>  Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think
>  I understand what you mean by "send Lisp data" -- how (in what form)
>  can Lisp data be sent?
> 
> It  can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which can be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to
> use. 

A Lisp object that is not stored in the data structures maintained by
alloc.c is not really a Lisp object that has a meaning for Emacs, I
think.

>  My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. Maybe we can prepare
>  data with its
>  format and let it deserialize them.
> 
>  But we already do that: the libjansson library "serializes" the data,
>  and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the
>  library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying
>  to make shorter. 
> 
> Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c++ and gocode for golang. They work very
> smoothly.
> 
> Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several weeks. It doesn’t work as smoothly
> as the above tools. It lags.
> 
> I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too many(about 10~30) json messages
> arrived after I input every char. Emacs has to parse and process all of them on every key pressing.
> 
> For the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messages arrived on every key pressing.
> 
> Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify them.

I don't think I understand how this is related to the serialization
issue and the pdumper.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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 <PS1PR03MB3606DA0457E33BC6C68AC936B7F10@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e7cb2d9_34dfbc00_6dce
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:44=EF=BC=8CIvan Y=
onchovski <yyoncho=40gmail.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> HaiJun Zhang writes:
>
> > > > If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struc=
t data(not lisp data), they have to be
> > > > translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which s=
hould be done in emacs thread cost too
> > > > much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not ve=
ry useful.
> > >
> > > You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone
> > > actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly=3F And if
> > > someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of det=
ail
> > > to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck=3F
> > >
> >
> > I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have do=
ne some work on this.
> > =40yyoncho Can you join the discussion=3F
>
> IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions (there was similar issue in=

> native json parsing as well). I havent tested the dynamic module parser=

> after the latest optimizations. Back then I tested also with the
> conversion code disabled and it still was relatively slow compared to
> the native json parsing even before the native joson parsing fixes.
>
> HaiJun Zhang, it will be good if you can report the performance issues
> you have with lsp-mode. You may follow the guide in the
> https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode=23performance .
>
>
> Thanks,
> Ivan


OK. I will do it when I have time.


--5e7cb2d9_34dfbc00_6dce
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8826=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:44=EF=BC=8CIvan Yonchovski &lt;yyoncho@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=
=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
HaiJun Zhang writes:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #3498db;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #d35400;">If json messages are p=
arsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have=
 to be<br>
translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be d=
one in emacs thread cost too<br>
much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful.=
<br></blockquote>
<br>
You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone<br>
actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly? And if<br>
someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail<br>
to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck?<br>
<br></blockquote>
<br>
I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have done som=
e work on this.<br>
@yyoncho Can you join the discussion?<br></blockquote>
<br>
IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions (there was similar issue in<br>
native json parsing as well). I havent tested the dynamic module parser<br>
after the latest optimizations. Back then I tested also with the<br>
conversion code disabled and it still was relatively slow compared to<br>
the native json parsing even before the native joson parsing fixes.<br>
<br>
HaiJun Zhang, it will be good if you can report the performance issues<br>
you have with lsp-mode. You may follow the guide in the<br>
https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode#performance .<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Ivan&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">OK. I will do it when I have time.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e7cb2d9_34dfbc00_6dce--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e7cb02e_550b8808_6dce
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:40=EF=BC=8CEli Za=
retskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question:
> while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it,
> or will it do something else=3F Can you describe how this would work
> using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on
> program symbols=3F
>


1. After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api to setup a comp=
letion task. The task has a task id. The lsp-mode saves the task id as th=
e current task and bind a callback function to it. It then returns.
2. The module create a task and adds it to its task queue.
3. The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and e=
xecutes it. It builds the json-rpc request and sends it to the lsp server=
. And then it waits for the reply from the lsp server.
4. The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json mess=
age and builds the completion result to a list(in lisp).
5. The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the t=
ask id and the completion result.
6. Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a=
 function in lsp-mode). The function checks that it is the result of the=C2=
=A0completion=C2=A0ask and call the task callback function which will pop=
ups a menu to display the completion items.


> > It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It =
will be
> > better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp=
 thread.
>
> Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think
> I understand what you mean by =22send Lisp data=22 -- how (in what form=
)
> can Lisp data be sent=3F
>

It =C2=A0can be the above completion list, a point to a lisp object which=
 can be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to use.

> > I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this
> > issue.
> >
> > My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp d=
ata. Maybe we can prepare data with its
> > format and let it deserialize them.
>
> But we already do that: the libjansson library =22serializes=22 the dat=
a,
> and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the
> library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying
> to make shorter.

Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c++ and go=
code for golang. They work very smoothly.

Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master for several weeks.=
 It doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly as the above tools. It lags.

I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that there are too many(a=
bout 10=7E30) json messages arrived after I input every char. Emacs has t=
o parse and process all of them on every key pressing.

=46or the old completion tools, there are only one or two json messages a=
rrived on every key pressing.

Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard to modify them.=



--5e7cb02e_550b8808_6dce
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8824=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM10:40=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
I'm not sure I understand the response. Let me repeat the question:<br>
while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it,<br>
or will it do something else? Can you describe how this would work<br>
using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on<br>
program symbols?<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<ol start=3D"1" type=3D"1" rd_type_protected=3D"true">
<li><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color: var(--backgro=
undColor);"></span>After user inputs a char, lsp-mode call the module api t=
o setup a completion task. The task has a task id. The lsp-mode saves the t=
ask id as the current task and bind a callback function to it. It then retu=
rns.</li>
<li>The module create a task and adds it to its task queue.</li>
<li>The worker thread in the module fetches the task from task queue and ex=
ecutes it. It builds the json-rpc request and sends it to the lsp server. A=
nd then it waits for the reply from the lsp server.</li>
<li>The worker receives the reply from lsp server. It parses the json messa=
ge and builds the completion result to a list(in lisp).</li>
<li>The worker thread posts a message to emacs. The message includes the ta=
sk id and the completion result.</li>
<li>Emacs receives the message and dispatches it to lsp-mode (by calling a =
function in lsp-mode). The function checks that it is the result of the&nbs=
p;<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(39, 39, 40);">completion</span>&nbsp;ask =
and call the task callback function which will popups a menu to display the=
 completion items.</li>
</ol>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">It will be good if mod=
ule thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be<br>
better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp threa=
d.<br></blockquote>
<br>
Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe. But I don't think<br>
I understand what you mean by &quot;send Lisp data&quot; -- how (in what fo=
rm)<br>
can Lisp data be sent?<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">It &nbsp;can be the above completion list, a point to a l=
isp object which can be passed to emacs to for lsp-mode to use.&nbsp;</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">I don't think I unders=
tand what does pdumper have to do with this<br>
issue.<br>
<br>
My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. M=
aybe we can prepare data with its<br>
format and let it deserialize them.<br></blockquote>
<br>
But we already do that: the libjansson library &quot;serializes&quot; the d=
ata,<br>
and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the<br>
library. That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying<br>
to make shorter.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>Before lsp-mode, I used completion tools like irony-mode for c/c&#43;&=
#43; and gocode for golang. They work very smoothly.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Now I have used lsp-mode with emacs-27 or emacs master fo=
r several weeks. It doesn=E2=80=99t work as smoothly as the above tools. It=
 lags.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I added some debug messages to lsp-mode and see that ther=
e are too many(about 10~30) json messages arrived after I input every char.=
 Emacs has to parse and process all of them on every key pressing.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">For the old completion tools, there are only one or two j=
son messages arrived on every key pressing.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Maybe it is the problem of the lsp server. But it is hard=
 to modify them.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e7cb02e_550b8808_6dce--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Ivan Yonchovski <yyoncho@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
In-reply-to: <83h7yc9xgy.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii writes:

>> From: Ivan Yonchovski <yyoncho@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:44:44 +0200
>>
>> IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions
>
> That should be all but gone now, then.  Right?

Probably yes. I haven't tested it since ATM json parsing is fast enough
or at least we haven't received a bug report about performance. Also,
the dynamic module solution will be slower since it will perform more
work than the native json so there is no point to invest effort into
that.




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> From: Ivan Yonchovski <yyoncho@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 18:44:44 +0200
> 
> IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions

That should be all but gone now, then.  Right?




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From: Ivan Yonchovski <yyoncho@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
In-reply-to: <PS1PR03MB3606DA0457E33BC6C68AC936B7F10@HIDDEN>
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HaiJun Zhang writes:

>> > If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have to be
>> > translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too
>> > much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful.
>>
>> You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone
>> actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly? And if
>> someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail
>> to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck?
>>
>
> I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have done some work on this.
> @yyoncho Can you join the discussion?

IIRC the bottleneck was the utf conversions (there was similar issue in
native json parsing as well). I havent tested the dynamic module parser
after the latest optimizations. Back then I tested also with the
conversion code disabled and it still was relatively slow compared to
the native json parsing even before the native joson parsing fixes.

HaiJun Zhang, it will be good if you can report the performance issues
you have with lsp-mode. You may follow the guide in the
https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode#performance .


Thanks,
Ivan




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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:22:57 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:22:57 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, yyoncho@HIDDEN
> 
>  Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the
>  main (a.k.a. "Lisp") thread of Emacs do while the module thread is
>  working? Doesn’t it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow?
> 
> They don’t known each other.

I'm not sure I understand the response.  Let me repeat the question:
while the module thread parses JSON, will the main thread wait for it,
or will it do something else?  Can you describe how this would work
using some use case where lsp-mode is used, like for completing on
program symbols?

> It will be good if module thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be
> better if module thread can send lisp data within the message to lisp thread. 

Posting messages is possible by writing to a pipe.  But I don't think
I understand what you mean by "send Lisp data" -- how (in what form)
can Lisp data be sent?

>  I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this
>  issue. 
> 
> My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data. Maybe we can prepare data with its
> format and let it deserialize them.

But we already do that: the libjansson library "serializes" the data,
and we then deserialize it in Emacs as we get the data from the
library.  That deserialization is what takes the time you are trying
to make shorter.




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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 12:22:57 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e798b26_3fc32e20_6dce
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:32=EF=BC=8CEli Za=
retskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the
> main (a.k.a. =22Lisp=22) thread of Emacs do while the module thread is
> working=3F Doesn=E2=80=99t it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow=3F=

>

They don=E2=80=99t known each other. It will be good if module thread can=
 post message to lisp thread. It will be better if module thread can send=
 lisp data within the message to lisp thread.


>
> > If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct da=
ta(not lisp data), they have to be
> > translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which shoul=
d be done in emacs thread cost too
> > much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very u=
seful.
>
> You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone
> actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly=3F And if
> someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail
> to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck=3F
>

I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their team have done s=
ome work on this.
=40yyoncho=C2=A0Can you join the discussion=3F


> > Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data struct for pdu=
mper, and translate the data to lisp
> > using pdumper=3F What about the performanse comparing with the above=3F=

>
> I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this
> issue.

My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp data.=
 Maybe we can prepare data with its format and let it deserialize them.


--5e798b26_3fc32e20_6dce
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Content-Disposition: inline

<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8822=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM10:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the<br>
main (a.k.a. &quot;Lisp&quot;) thread of Emacs do while the module thread i=
s<br>
working? Doesn=E2=80=99t it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow?<br>
<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div dir=3D"auto">They don=E2=80=99t known each other. It will be good if m=
odule thread can post message to lisp thread. It will be better if module t=
hread can send lisp data within the message to lisp thread.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">If json messages are p=
arsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have=
 to be<br>
translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be d=
one in emacs thread cost too<br>
much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful.=
<br></blockquote>
<br>
You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone<br>
actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly? And if<br>
someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail<br>
to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck?<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I have talked with the author of lsp-mode. I think their =
team have done some work on this.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<p style=3D"margin: 0px; font-stretch: normal; line-height: normal; font-fa=
mily: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;; color: rgb(62, 129, 222);">@<a href=3D"ma=
ilto:yyoncho%20%3Cyyoncho%40gmail.com%3E">yyoncho</a>&nbsp;Can you join the=
 discussion?</p>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Is it possible to pars=
e json messages and prepare data struct for pdumper, and translate the data=
 to lisp<br>
using pdumper? What about the performanse comparing with the above?<br></bl=
ockquote>
<br>
I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this<br>
issue.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>My understanding is that pdumper can serialize and deserialize lisp da=
ta. Maybe we can prepare data with its format and let it deserialize them.<=
/div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e798b26_3fc32e20_6dce--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <PS1PR03MB36065956FF167C2C8BA35016B7F30@HIDDEN>
 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:12:23 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
References: <aade4dc9-4992-4751-9706-9802389ff732@Spark>
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> Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:12:23 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  Yes, but so what? You can still do work in the module threads, then
>  send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread.
> 
> Many users complain the lag of lsp-mode(lsp client for emacs). I’m also suffering from it, while the lsp works
> much better in vim and VSCode.
> There are too many json messages in communication between emacs(lsp client) and lsp server. 
> 
> In that discussion,  some people want to parse the json messages in a module thread and prepare lisp data
> for emacs to use. But it is not possible because of the limit.

Suppose a module thread will be able to parse JSON: what would the
main (a.k.a. "Lisp") thread of Emacs do while the module thread is
working?  Doesn't it need to wait for the parsed data anyhow?

> If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(not lisp data), they have to be
> translated to lisp data before emacs use. The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too
> much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful.

You are saying that the translation is costly, but did someone
actually measure that and verify that it's indeed costly?  And if
someone did, where can I see the results in sufficient level of detail
to understand what part(s) of parsing JSON are the bottleneck?

> Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data struct for pdumper, and translate the data to lisp
> using pdumper? What about the performanse comparing with the above?

I don't think I understand what does pdumper have to do with this
issue.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2020 09:12:23 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e76bb7d_6a5ee64_6dce
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM4:16=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> Yes, but so what=3F You can still do work in the module threads, then
> send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread.
>

Many users complain the lag of lsp-mode(lsp client for emacs). I=E2=80=99=
m also suffering from it, while the lsp works much better in vim and VSCo=
de.
There are too many json messages in communication between emacs(lsp clien=
t) and lsp server.

In that discussion, =C2=A0some people want to parse the json messages in =
a module thread and prepare lisp data for emacs to use. But it is not pos=
sible because of the limit.

If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as c struct data(n=
ot lisp data), they have to be translated to lisp data before emacs use. =
The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too much cpu, w=
hich make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful.

Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data struct for pdumper=
, and translate the data to lisp using pdumper=3F What about the performa=
nse comparing with the above=3F


--5e76bb7d_6a5ee64_6dce
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B43=E6=9C=8821=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM4:16=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
Yes, but so what? You can still do work in the module threads, then<br>
send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Many users complain the lag of lsp-mode(lsp client for em=
acs). I=E2=80=99m also suffering from it, while the lsp works much better i=
n vim and VSCode.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">There are too many json messages in communication between=
 emacs(lsp client) and lsp server.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">In that discussion, &nbsp;s<span style=3D"color: var(--te=
xtColor); background-color: var(--backgroundColor);">ome people want to par=
se the json messages in a module thread and prepare lisp data for emacs to =
use. But it is not possible because of the limit.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">If json messages are parsed in module thread and saved as=
 c struct data(not lisp data), they have to be translated to lisp data befo=
re emacs use. The translation which should be done in emacs thread cost too=
 much cpu, which make the parallel parsing of json messages not very useful=
.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Is it possible to parse json messages and prepare data st=
ruct for pdumper, and translate the data to lisp using pdumper? What about =
the performanse comparing with the above?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e76bb7d_6a5ee64_6dce--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:24:37 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:24:37 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I known module code can call emacs functions. But is it true for threads in module?

Since the Lisp interpreter is non-reentrant, this is not possible.

> See this: https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode/issues/676#issuecomment-476700911
> 
> That means if a native-code thread is to be run in parallel with the UI thread, it can never access an Env. 

Yes, but so what?  You can still do work in the module threads, then
send the accumulated results to emacs from the main thread.

Again, this is all too abstract.  A useful discussion would have many
more details regarding the job that needs to be done and the
bottle-necks that need to be distributed to threads running in
parallel.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:24:37 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e757aed_79838cb2_6dce
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM5:00=EF=BC=8CEli Zare=
tskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:26:24 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: michael.albinus=40gmx.de, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
> > function),
> >
> > Can threads in modules call Emacs functions=3F
>
> Yes. It=E2=80=99s in the docs, please read about modules in the ELisp m=
anual.

I known module code can call emacs functions. But is it true for threads =
in module=3F

See this:=C2=A0https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode/issues/676=23issueco=
mment-476700911

> That means if a native-code thread is to be run in parallel with the UI=
 thread, it can never access an=C2=A0Env.


--5e757aed_79838cb2_6dce
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM5:00=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 =
13:26:24 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
<br>
There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs<br>
function),<br>
<br>
Can threads in modules call Emacs functions?<br></blockquote>
<br>
Yes. It=E2=80=99s in the docs, please read about modules in the ELisp manua=
l.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div dir=3D"auto">I known module code can call emacs functions. But is it t=
rue for threads in module?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">See this:&nbsp;<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(36, 41, 46=
); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: SFMono-Regular, Consolas, &quot;Lib=
eration Mono&quot;, Menlo, monospace; font-size: 12px; background-color: va=
r(--backgroundColor);">https://github.com/emacs-lsp/lsp-mode/issues/676#iss=
uecomment-476700911</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(36, 41, 46); color: rgb(3=
6, 41, 46); font-family: SFMono-Regular, Consolas, &quot;Liberation Mono&qu=
ot;, Menlo, monospace; font-size: 12px; background-color: var(--backgroundC=
olor);"><br></span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(36, 41, 46); color: rgb(3=
6, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, &quot;Segoe UI&=
quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;S=
egoe UI Emoji&quot;;">&gt; That means if a native-code thread is to be run =
in parallel with the UI thread, it can never access an&nbsp;</span><code st=
yle=3D"box-sizing: border-box; font-family: SFMono-Regular, Consolas, &quot=
;Liberation Mono&quot;, Menlo, monospace; font-size: 11.899999618530273px; =
padding: 0.2em 0.4em; margin: 0px; background-color: rgba(27, 31, 35, 0.047=
0588); border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bo=
ttom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; caret-color: rgb(36=
, 41, 46); color: rgb(36, 41, 46);">Env</code><span style=3D"caret-color: r=
gb(36, 41, 46); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMa=
cSystemFont, &quot;Segoe UI&quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Appl=
e Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;Segoe UI Emoji&quot;;">.&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"caret-color: rgb(36, 41, 46); color: rgb(36, 41, 46); font-family: SFMo=
no-Regular, Consolas, &quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, Menlo, monospace; font-s=
ize: 12px; background-color: var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(36, 41, 46); color: rgb(3=
6, 41, 46); font-family: -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, &quot;Segoe UI&=
quot;, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif, &quot;Apple Color Emoji&quot;, &quot;S=
egoe UI Emoji&quot;;"><br></span></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e757aed_79838cb2_6dce--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
In-reply-to: <PS1PR03MB36064B5352B3B6523D6DEEF4B73C0@HIDDEN>
 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:08:28 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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> Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:08:28 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful. You need to
>  propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is
>  designed and implemented. You need to describe those new APIs, and
>  you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that
>  displays messages in the echo area.
> 
> On the UI part, create a worker like this:
> ——————xxxx——————
> fetch_mail_worker = new Worker(xxx)
> 
> fetch_mail_worker.onmessage = function (msg) {
>     // display the new mail
> };
> 
> fetch_mail_worker.onerror = function (error) {
>     message(“fetch mail error: %s”, error)
> };
> 
> fetch_mail_worker.start()
> ——————xxxx———————
> 
> On the worker part, fetch emails and post messages or error:
> ——————xxxx———————-
> while(true) {
>     error = fetch_next_mail(&msg)
>     if error != nil {
>        post_error(error)
>        break
>     }
> 
>     post_message(msg)
> }
> ——————xxxx———————-

This is very abstract.  I hoped you could describe this in terms of
relevant Emacs APIs and features.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Mon, 6 Jan 2020 13:08:28 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Message-ID: <PS1PR03MB36064B5352B3B6523D6DEEF4B73C0@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <83blrjh7ml.fsf@HIDDEN>
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 <PS1PR03MB360625E2B9C745C775311683B7270@HIDDEN>
 <83o8vpn8g1.fsf@HIDDEN> <87mub9u0ld.fsf@HIDDEN>
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 <PS1PR03MB360611246FF32BB051B0D430B7230@HIDDEN>
 <83r20hhyhi.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <PS1PR03MB36062BD9A0355865B0FE9CA2B7220@HIDDEN>
 <83k167ha0u.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <PS1PR03MB36062395A4FACA20F7FACDA5B7220@HIDDEN>
 <83blrjh7ml.fsf@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e12c0d1_153ea438_b145
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM5:51=EF=BC=8CEli Zare=
tskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:33:18 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: michael.albinus=40gmx.de, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > How would that work=3F We don't have any such message queues in Emacs=
,
> > and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job
> > reported the message.
> >
> > Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the =
email client known what happens and
> > will tell the user.
>
> Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful. You need to
> propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is
> designed and implemented. You need to describe those new APIs, and
> you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that
> displays messages in the echo area.

On the UI part, create a worker like this:
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94
fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker =3D new Worker(xxx)

fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker.onmessage =3D function (msg) =7B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 // display the new mail
=7D;

fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker.onerror =3D function (error) =7B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 message(=E2=80=9Cfetch mail error: %s=E2=80=9D, error)
=7D;

fetch=5Fmail=5Fworker.start()
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94

On the worker part, fetch emails and post messages or error:
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-
while(true) =7B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 error =3D fetch=5Fnext=5Fmail(&msg)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 if error =21=3D nil =7B
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0post=5Ferror(error)
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0break
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =7D

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 post=5Fmessage(msg)
=7D
=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxxx=E2=80=94=E2=80=
=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-

> It goes without saying that an editor different from Emacs could be
> designed from scratch to support multi-threading between the UI and
> the processing engine. The issues at hand are (a) would such an
> editor be as powerful and flexible as Emacs, in terms of letting the
> programs written in the extension language control what is being
> displayed and where; and (b) would it be possible to add such
> threading to Emacs as it is now without completely redesigning how it
> processes input events and how it displays messages to the user.
>
> So any proposals in that direction must be more concrete and directly
> related to how Emacs works now, otherwise this will not be a
> discussion of any practical interest for Emacs development.

I don=E2=80=99t known if the above code is=C2=A0concrete.


--5e12c0d1_153ea438_b145
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM5:51=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 =
17:33:18 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
<br>
How would that work? We don't have any such message queues in Emacs,<br>
and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job<br>
reported the message.<br>
<br>
Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the email =
client known what happens and<br>
will tell the user.<br></blockquote>
<br>
Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful. You need to<br>
propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is<br>
designed and implemented. You need to describe those new APIs, and<br>
you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that<br>
displays messages in the echo area.<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">On the UI part, create a worker like this:</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx=
x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">fetch_mail_worker =3D new Worker(xxx)</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">fetch_mail_worker.onmessage =3D function (msg) {</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; // display the new mail</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">};</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">fetch_mail_worker.onerror =3D function (error) {</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; message(=E2=80=9Cfetch mail error: %s=E2=80=
=9D, error)</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">};</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">fetch_mail_worker.start()</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx=
x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">On the worker part, fetch emails and post messages or err=
or:</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx=
x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">while(true) {</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; error =3D fetch_next_mail(&amp;msg)</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; if error !=3D nil {</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;post_error(error)</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;break</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; }</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp; &nbsp; post_message(msg)</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">}</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94xxx=
x=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94=E2=80=94-</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">It goes without saying=
 that an editor different from Emacs could be<br>
designed from scratch to support multi-threading between the UI and<br>
the processing engine. The issues at hand are (a) would such an<br>
editor be as powerful and flexible as Emacs, in terms of letting the<br>
programs written in the extension language control what is being<br>
displayed and where; and (b) would it be possible to add such<br>
threading to Emacs as it is now without completely redesigning how it<br>
processes input events and how it displays messages to the user.<br>
<br>
So any proposals in that direction must be more concrete and directly<br>
related to how Emacs works now, otherwise this will not be a<br>
discussion of any practical interest for Emacs development.&nbsp;<br></bloc=
kquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
I don=E2=80=99t known if the above code is&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: var(-=
-textColor); background-color: var(--backgroundColor);">concrete.</span>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e12c0d1_153ea438_b145--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
In-reply-to: <PS1PR03MB36062395A4FACA20F7FACDA5B7220@HIDDEN>
 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:33:18 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
References: <aade4dc9-4992-4751-9706-9802389ff732@Spark>
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> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 17:33:18 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  How would that work? We don't have any such message queues in Emacs,
>  and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job
>  reported the message.
> 
> Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the email client known what happens and
> will tell the user. 

Sorry, such general and vague suggestions aren't useful.  You need to
propose specific changes that are consistent with how Emacs is
designed and implemented.  You need to describe those new APIs, and
you need to tell how will they be used by the existing code that
displays messages in the echo area.

It goes without saying that an editor different from Emacs could be
designed from scratch to support multi-threading between the UI and
the processing engine.  The issues at hand are (a) would such an
editor be as powerful and flexible as Emacs, in terms of letting the
programs written in the extension language control what is being
displayed and where; and (b) would it be possible to add such
threading to Emacs as it is now without completely redesigning how it
processes input events and how it displays messages to the user.

So any proposals in that direction must be more concrete and directly
related to how Emacs works now, otherwise this will not be a
discussion of any practical interest for Emacs development.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM4:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zare=
tskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> How would that work=3F We don't have any such message queues in Emacs,
> and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job
> reported the message.

Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI part of the emai=
l client known what happens and will tell the user.

> And again, some low-level Lisp functions issue messages when they like
> that, out of the application's control. What do you do with those=3F
>

The lisp machine need to be modified for running workers. When running wo=
rkers, It may save the messages to a log file.

> I'm saying that fetching email doesn't need any Lisp, it can be done
> in C. And if so, you don=E2=80=99t need Lisp-level threads at all.

Many emacs hackers may prefer lisp to C. Writing lisp is faster than C. A=
nd compiling C is not an easy
=C2=A0thing for many users.


--5e105be3_3b2125a3_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=884=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM4:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">How would that work? W=
e don't have any such message queues in Emacs,<br>
and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job<br>
reported the message.<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Some APIs need to be added for communication use. The UI =
part of the email client known what happens and will tell the user.&nbsp;</=
div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">And again, some low-le=
vel Lisp functions issue messages when they like<br>
that, out of the application's control. What do you do with those?<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">The lisp machine need to be modified for running workers.=
 When running workers, It may save the messages to a log file.</div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">I'm saying that fetchi=
ng email doesn't need any Lisp, it can be done<br>
in C. And if so, you don=E2=80=99t need Lisp-level threads at all.&nbsp;<br=
></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
Many emacs hackers may prefer lisp to C. Writing lisp is faster than C. And=
 compiling C is not an easy<br>
<div>&nbsp;thing for many users.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e105be3_3b2125a3_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e10568c_7924ca0a_4379
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The UI extension is in =E2=80=9CExtending Workbench=E2=80=9D.

Extension examples:
1. add icon buttons on the title menu bar(like toolbar)
2. add icon buttons on the status bar
3. add items to any existing menu or add new context menu
4. add an outline view to show symbol list(like imenu with a list view), =
and add a context menu for the symbols in the list
5. add an virtual filesystem view to show files from a ftp server and ope=
n files in it
6. call any command in the VSCode and get the result. The command may be =
a file chooser dialog.
7. call any command registered by other extensions and get the result
8. register commands for user to use. The command is implemented in the e=
xtension with typescript(like javescript). The command can be run by user=
 with Ctrl-P(like M-x in emacs) or can be called by other extensions(like=
 in 7).
9. create a webview and show it like an opened file. It can be used to pr=
eview markdown.
10. add key bindings
11. create an slot in log panel and output logs to it.
12. display notifications(like the tooltip window in emacs)
13. show progress
14. get opened file list or get the active file


=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: dgutov=40yandex.ru, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsive=
ness. As far as I known, the
> > extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.
>
> Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode
> extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you=3F

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itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto">The UI extension is in =E2=80=9CExtending Workbench=E2=80=
=9D.
<div><br></div>
<div>Extension examples:</div>
<div>1. add icon buttons on the title menu bar(like toolbar)</div>
<div>2. add icon buttons on the status bar</div>
<div>3. add items to any existing menu or add new context menu</div>
<div>4. add an outline view to show symbol list(like imenu with a list view=
), and add a context menu for the symbols in the list</div>
<div>5. add an virtual filesystem view to show files from a ftp server and =
open files in it</div>
<div>6. call any command in the VSCode and get the result. The command may =
be a file chooser dialog.</div>
<div>7. call any command registered by other extensions and get the result<=
/div>
<div>8. register commands for user to use. The command is implemented in th=
e extension with typescript(like javescript). The command can be run by use=
r with Ctrl-P(like M-x in emacs) or can be called by other extensions(like =
in 7).</div>
<div>9. create a webview and show it like an opened file. It can be used to=
 preview markdown.</div>
<div>10. add key bindings</div>
<div>11. create an slot in log panel and output logs to it.</div>
<div>12. display notifications(like the tooltip window in emacs)</div>
<div>13. show progress</div>
<div>14. get opened file list or get the active file</div>
<div><br>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 =
12:02:35 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: dgutov@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
<br>
While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. =
As far as I known, the<br>
extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.<br></blockquote>
<br>
Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode<br>
extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you?<br></bloc=
kquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e10568c_7924ca0a_4379--




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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:11:23 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 16:11:23 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: dgutov@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> I extracted some text from the VSCode extension development guide. Hope you can get an overview first.

Where does it say how to cause VSCode display an equivalent to an
image or an overlay string over some text in a buffer?




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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:26:24 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:26:24 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
>  function),  
> 
> Can threads in modules call Emacs functions?

Yes.  It's in the docs, please read about modules in the ELisp manual.




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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:19:46 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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> Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:19:46 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no
>  way of displaying any messages?  
> 
> Workers are background workers. They don’t display messages directly. They post the error messages to the
> UI part of the lisp application.

How would that work?  We don't have any such message queues in Emacs,
and no machinery to display them, nor for telling the user which job
reported the message.

And again, some low-level Lisp functions issue messages when they like
that, out of the application's control.  What do you do with those?

> For a lisp application such as an email client, it is splitted to two parts: the UI part and the worker part. The UI
> part may has two callbacks(or event handlers):
> 1. on_new_email
> 2. on_error
> 
> If the worker fetches an email successfully, it sends an event to the UI part and the on_new_email callback of
> the UI part will be called. If the worker fails, it sends an error to the UI part and the on_error callback will be
> called. The on_error callback can display the error message to user.

I'm saying that fetching email doesn't need any Lisp, it can be done
in C.  And if so, you don't need Lisp-level threads at all.




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From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e1048b0_6385489e_4379
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I extracted some text from the VSCode extension development guide. Hope y=
ou can get an overview first.


The extension host:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Extension host is a Node.js process in VS Code responsible for loading an=
d running extensions. Although you don't need to worry about the Extensio=
n Host when you are writing extensions, it is still useful to know what t=
he Extension Host does to your extension.

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/advanced-topics/extension-host


Extension Manifest:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Every Visual Studio Code extension needs a manifest file package.json at =
the root of the extension directory structure.

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/extension-manifest


Contribute Points:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Contribution Points are a set of JSON declarations that you make in the c=
ontributes field of the package.json Extension Manifest. Your extension r=
egisters Contribution Points to extend various functionalities within Vis=
ual Studio Code. Here is a list of all available Contribution Points:

configuration
configurationDefaults
commands
menus
keybindings
languages
debuggers
breakpoints
grammars
themes
snippets
jsonValidation
views
viewsContainers
problemMatchers
problemPatterns
taskDefinitions
colors
typescriptServerPlugins
resourceLabel=46ormatters

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/contribution-points


Extending Workbench:
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
=22Workbench=22 refers to the overall Visual Studio Code UI that encompas=
ses the following UI components:

Title Bar
Activity Bar
Side Bar
Panel
Editor Group
Status Bar

VS Code provides various APIs that allow you to add your own components t=
o the Workbench.

URL: https://code.visualstudio.com/api/extension-capabilities/extending-w=
orkbench

=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: dgutov=40yandex.ru, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsive=
ness. As far as I known, the
> > extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.
>
> Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode
> extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you=3F

--5e1048b0_6385489e_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto">I extracted some text from the VSCode extension developme=
nt guide. Hope you can get an overview first.<br>
<br>
<br>
The extension host:<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
Extension host is a Node.js process in VS Code responsible for loading and =
running extensions. Although you don't need to worry about the Extension Ho=
st when you are writing extensions, it is still useful to know what the Ext=
ension Host does to your extension.<br>
<br>
URL: <a href=3D"https://code.visualstudio.com/api/advanced-topics/extension=
-host">https://code.visualstudio.com/api/advanced-topics/extension-host</a>=
<br>
<br>
<br>
Extension Manifest:<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
Every Visual Studio Code extension needs a manifest file package.json at th=
e root of the extension directory structure.<br>
<br>
URL: <a href=3D"https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/extension-mani=
fest">https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/extension-manifest</a><b=
r>
<br>
<br>
Contribute Points:<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
Contribution Points are a set of JSON declarations that you make in the con=
tributes field of the package.json Extension Manifest. Your extension regis=
ters Contribution Points to extend various functionalities within Visual St=
udio Code. Here is a list of all available Contribution Points:<br>
<br>
configuration<br>
configurationDefaults<br>
commands<br>
menus<br>
keybindings<br>
languages<br>
debuggers<br>
breakpoints<br>
grammars<br>
themes<br>
snippets<br>
jsonValidation<br>
views<br>
viewsContainers<br>
problemMatchers<br>
problemPatterns<br>
taskDefinitions<br>
colors<br>
typescriptServerPlugins<br>
resourceLabelFormatters<br>
<br>
URL: <a href=3D"https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/contribution-p=
oints">https://code.visualstudio.com/api/references/contribution-points</a>=
<br>
<br>
<br>
Extending Workbench:<br>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>
&quot;Workbench&quot; refers to the overall Visual Studio Code UI that enco=
mpasses the following UI components:<br>
<br>
Title Bar<br>
Activity Bar<br>
Side Bar<br>
Panel<br>
Editor Group<br>
Status Bar<br>
<br>
VS Code provides various APIs that allow you to add your own components to =
the Workbench.<br>
<br>
URL: <a href=3D"https://code.visualstudio.com/api/extension-capabilities/ex=
tending-workbench">https://code.visualstudio.com/api/extension-capabilities=
/extending-workbench</a><br>
<br></div>
</div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 =
12:02:35 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: dgutov@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
<br>
While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. =
As far as I known, the<br>
extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.<br></blockquote>
<br>
Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode<br>
extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you?<br></bloc=
kquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e1048b0_6385489e_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 14:41:58 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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Subject: RE: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e1033bb_6f0939f8_4379
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Workers don=E2=80=99t have to be in dedicated native threads. It is decid=
ed by the lisp machine if they are run in a lisp machine.

=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:11=EF=BC=8Carthur =
miller <arthur.miller=40live.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> As a concept, I am not sure a thread is the best solution to implement =
for a high level scripting runtime as Emacs lisp. Thread is a relatively =
primitive concept and leaves a lot to=C2=A0 applications programmer to de=
cide and manage. In concurrent programming a thread is OK-ish concept, bu=
t it might not be the best for truly parallel problem solving.
>
> Creating more threads than there are physical cpus creates overhead tha=
t might eat up benefits of parallelism. It=C2=A0 also forces a programmer=
 to think in terms of machine, scheduling, synchronization etc. It can be=
 more effective and more lisp-ish to think in terms of tasks and let the =
core manage the threads and scheduling on it's own.
>
> Tasks let us think about the work we wish to perform and not how to per=
form it. It lets runtime create number of worker threads and schedule the=
m automatically instead of forcing programmers to join, synchronize etc
>
> As a concept a web worker is just a worker thread introduced as idea in=
 various single threaded gui toolkits long ago. Java's Swing popularized =
worker threads heavily back in days, and I don't remember if M=46C also m=
ade a deal of those before Swing or after.
>
> Anyway, these were just ordinary threads,=C2=A0 doing some work, like p=
opulating big lists and similar, nothing special. However back in days th=
reads were cheap. Everything run on one CPU, and threaded programming was=
 mostly what we today call concurrent programming.
>
> Since Swing and Mfc were big things, we have got multi core CPUs as mai=
nstream and threads have got much more expensive to create and communicat=
e with. Java threads back at days where super cheap to create. I am not s=
ure how expensive are posix threads on different cpus, but I know that wi=
n32 threads are quite expensive/slow. =46or a small work it might be more=
 expensive to process it in separate thread.
>
> Tasks can be mapped on entire thread or put into a queue for physical t=
hreads to pick them up. Thus I think tasks might be more suited for say a=
n input queue or render queue and similar.
>
> If I remember well, certain version of DirectX used to process input in=
 separate thread, which they abandoned in some later version. However I s=
topped to work with dx years ago, before dx10 come out, so I don't know h=
ow they do nowadays.
>
>
> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
>
>
>
> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> =46r=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> Datum: 2020-01-03 04:36 (GMT+01:00)
> Till: Eli Zaretskii <eliz=40gnu.org>
> Kopia: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus=40gmx.de
> =C3=84mne: bug=2338807: =5B=46eature request=5D: Support lisp workers l=
ike web workers.
>
> =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Z=
aretskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> >
> > Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
> > affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads
> > that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.
>
> =46or web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from M=
DN(https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web=5FWorkers=5FAPI/U=
sing=5Fweb=5Fworkers):
>
> workers run in another global context that is different from the curren=
t=C2=A0window. Thus, using the=C2=A0windowshortcut to get the current glo=
bal scope (instead of=C2=A0self) within a=C2=A0Worker=C2=A0will return an=
 error.
> The worker context is represented by a=C2=A0DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope=C2=
=A0object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are uti=
lized by a single script; shared workers use=C2=A0SharedWorkerGlobalScope=
). A dedicated worker is only accessible from the script that first spawn=
ed it, whereas shared workers can be accessed from multiple scripts.
>

--5e1033bb_6f0939f8_4379
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto">Workers don=E2=80=99t have to be in dedicated native thre=
ads. It is decided by the lisp machine if they are run in a lisp machine.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 &#43;=
0800 PM10:11=EF=BC=8Carthur miller &lt;arthur.miller@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A</span><br></div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto">As a concept, I am not sure a thread is the best solution=
 to implement for a high level scripting runtime as Emacs lisp. Thread is a=
 relatively primitive concept and leaves a lot to&nbsp; applications progra=
mmer to decide and manage. In concurrent programming a thread is OK-ish con=
cept, but it might not be the best for truly parallel problem solving.</div=
>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Creating more threads than there are physical cpus create=
s overhead that might eat up benefits of parallelism. It&nbsp; also forces =
a programmer to think in terms of machine, scheduling, synchronization etc.=
 It can be more effective and more lisp-ish to think in terms of tasks and =
let the core manage the threads and scheduling on it's own.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Tasks let us think about the work we wish to perform and =
not how to perform it. It lets runtime create number of worker threads and =
schedule them automatically instead of forcing programmers to join, synchro=
nize etc</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">As a concept a web worker is just a worker thread introdu=
ced as idea in various single threaded gui toolkits long ago. Java's Swing =
popularized worker threads heavily back in days, and I don't remember if MF=
C also made a deal of those before Swing or after.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Anyway, these were just ordinary threads,&nbsp; doing som=
e work, like populating big lists and similar, nothing special. However bac=
k in days threads were cheap. Everything run on one CPU, and threaded progr=
amming was mostly what we today call concurrent programming.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Since Swing and Mfc were big things, we have got multi co=
re CPUs as mainstream and threads have got much more expensive to create an=
d communicate with. Java threads back at days where super cheap to create. =
I am not sure how expensive are posix threads on different cpus, but I know=
 that win32 threads are quite expensive/slow. For a small work it might be =
more expensive to process it in separate thread.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Tasks can be mapped on entire thread or put into a queue =
for physical threads to pick them up. Thus I think tasks might be more suit=
ed for say an input queue or render queue and similar.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">If I remember well, certain version of DirectX used to pr=
ocess input in separate thread, which they abandoned in some later version.=
 However I stopped to work with dx years ago, before dx10 come out, so I do=
n't know how they do nowadays.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div id=3D"composer_signature" dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%; color:#575757">Skickat fr=C3=A5n =
min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-------- Originalmeddelande --------</div>
<div>Fr=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;</div>
<div>Datum: 2020-01-03 04:36 (GMT&#43;01:00)</div>
<div>Till: Eli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;</div>
<div>Kopia: 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, michael.albinus@HIDDEN</div>
<div>=C3=84mne: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web=
 workers.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;"><br>
Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly<br>
affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads<br>
that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. &nbsp;<br>=
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>For web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from MD=
N(<a href=3D"https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Workers_A=
PI/Using_web_workers">https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_=
Workers_API/Using_web_workers</a>)<span style=3D"">:</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 24px; padding:0px; border:0px; box-sizing:border=
-box; max-width:42rem; color:rgb(51,51,51); font-family:Arial,x-locale-body=
,sans-serif; font-size:16px; letter-spacing:-0.04447999969124794px">workers=
 run in another global context that is different from the current&nbsp;<a h=
ref=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window" title=3D"The Window interface represents=
 a window containing a DOM document; the document property points to the DO=
M document loaded in that window." style=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px; border=
:0px; color:rgb(61,126,154); text-decoration:none"><code style=3D"margin:0p=
x; padding:0px 2px; border:0px; font-style:inherit; background-color:rgba(2=
20,220,220,0.498039); border-top-left-radius:2px; border-top-right-radius:2=
px; border-bottom-right-radius:2px; border-bottom-left-radius:2px; font-fam=
ily:consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,courier,monospace; word-wrap:break=
-word">window</code></a>. Thus, using the&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/A=
PI/Window" title=3D"The Window interface represents a window containing a D=
OM document; the document property points to the DOM document loaded in tha=
t window." style=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px; border:0px; color:rgb(61,126,1=
54); text-decoration:none"><code style=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px 2px; bord=
er:0px; font-style:inherit; background-color:rgba(220,220,220,0.498039); bo=
rder-top-left-radius:2px; border-top-right-radius:2px; border-bottom-right-=
radius:2px; border-bottom-left-radius:2px; font-family:consolas,&quot;Liber=
ation Mono&quot;,courier,monospace; word-wrap:break-word">window</code></a>=
shortcut to get the current global scope (instead of&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US=
/docs/Web/API/Window/self" title=3D"The Window.self read-only property retu=
rns the window itself, as a WindowProxy. It can be used with dot notation o=
n a window object (that is, window.self) or standalone (self). The advantag=
e of the standalone notation is that a similar notation exists for non-wind=
ow contexts, such as in Web Workers. By using self, you can refer to the gl=
obal scope in a way that will work not only in a window context (self will =
resolve to window.self) but also in a worker context (self will then resolv=
e to WorkerGlobalScope.self)." style=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px; border:0px=
; color:rgb(61,126,154); text-decoration:none"><code style=3D"margin:0px; p=
adding:0px 2px; border:0px; font-style:inherit; background-color:rgba(220,2=
20,220,0.498039); border-top-left-radius:2px; border-top-right-radius:2px; =
border-bottom-right-radius:2px; border-bottom-left-radius:2px; font-family:=
consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,courier,monospace; word-wrap:break-wor=
d">self</code></a>) within a&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/Worker" ti=
tle=3D"The Worker interface of the Web Workers API represents a background =
task that can be easily created and can send messages back to its creator. =
Creating a worker is as simple as calling the Worker() constructor and spec=
ifying a script to be run in the worker thread." style=3D"margin:0px; paddi=
ng:0px; border:0px; color:rgb(61,126,154); text-decoration:none"><code styl=
e=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px 2px; border:0px; font-style:inherit; backgroun=
d-color:rgba(220,220,220,0.498039); border-top-left-radius:2px; border-top-=
right-radius:2px; border-bottom-right-radius:2px; border-bottom-left-radius=
:2px; font-family:consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,courier,monospace; w=
ord-wrap:break-word">Worker</code></a>&nbsp;will return an error.</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 24px; padding:0px; border:0px; box-sizing:border=
-box; max-width:42rem; color:rgb(51,51,51); font-family:Arial,x-locale-body=
,sans-serif; font-size:16px; letter-spacing:-0.04447999969124794px">The wor=
ker context is represented by a&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/Dedicat=
edWorkerGlobalScope" title=3D"The DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope object (the Wo=
rker global scope) is accessible through the self keyword. Some additional =
global functions, namespaces objects, and constructors, not typically assoc=
iated with the worker global scope, but available on it, are listed in the =
JavaScript Reference. See also: Functions available to workers." style=3D"m=
argin:0px; padding:0px; border:0px; color:rgb(61,126,154); text-decoration:=
none"><code style=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px 2px; border:0px; font-style:in=
herit; background-color:rgba(220,220,220,0.498039); border-top-left-radius:=
2px; border-top-right-radius:2px; border-bottom-right-radius:2px; border-bo=
ttom-left-radius:2px; font-family:consolas,&quot;Liberation Mono&quot;,cour=
ier,monospace; word-wrap:break-word">DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope</code></a>&=
nbsp;object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are uti=
lized by a single script; shared workers use&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/We=
b/API/SharedWorkerGlobalScope" title=3D"The SharedWorkerGlobalScope object =
(the SharedWorker global scope) is accessible through the self keyword. Som=
e additional global functions, namespaces objects, and constructors, not ty=
pically associated with the worker global scope, but available on it, are l=
isted in the JavaScript Reference. See the complete list of functions avail=
able to workers." style=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px; border:0px; color:rgb(6=
1,126,154); text-decoration:none"><code style=3D"margin:0px; padding:0px 2p=
x; border:0px; font-style:inherit; background-color:rgba(220,220,220,0.4980=
39); border-top-left-radius:2px; border-top-right-radius:2px; border-bottom=
-right-radius:2px; border-bottom-left-radius:2px; font-family:consolas,&quo=
t;Liberation Mono&quot;,courier,monospace; word-wrap:break-word">SharedWork=
erGlobalScope</code></a>). A dedicated worker is only accessible from the s=
cript that first spawned it, whereas shared workers can be accessed from mu=
ltiple scripts.</p>
<p style=3D"margin:0px 0px 24px; padding:0px; border:0px; box-sizing:border=
-box; max-width:42rem; color:rgb(51,51,51); font-family:Arial,x-locale-body=
,sans-serif; font-size:16px; letter-spacing:-0.04447999969124794px"><br></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e1033bb_6f0939f8_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:59:01 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, arthur miller
 <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
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Subject: RE: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e1029aa_58df53b_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM9:38=EF=BC=8Carthur m=
iller <arthur.miller=40live.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> This issue on their github might help you to start in right direction :=
-):
>
>
> https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/1833
>
> I don't if things changed since 2017 though.
>
> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
>

It is what I want to find. Thank you very much.


--5e1029aa_58df53b_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM9:38=EF=BC=8Carthur miller &lt;arthur.miller@HIDDEN&gt;=
=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<div dir=3D"auto">This issue on their github might help you to start in rig=
ht direction :-):</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/1833</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I don't if things changed since 2017 though.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div id=3D"composer_signature" dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%; color:#575757">Skickat fr=C3=A5n =
min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">&nbsp;</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>It is what I want to find. Thank you very much.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e1029aa_58df53b_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:55:48 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zare=
tskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
> function), but if more is needed, we can add that. Some design is
> necessary, though, to identify what else is needed and why.
>

There is discussion related with this.=C2=A0https://emacs-china.org/t/lsp=
-mode/11238/36


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=A5 &#43;0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs<br>
function), but if more is needed, we can add that. Some design is<br>
necessary, though, to identify what else is needed and why.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
There is discussion related with this.&nbsp;<a href=3D"https://emacs-china.=
org/t/lsp-mode/11238/36">https://emacs-china.org/t/lsp-mode/11238/36</a>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e1028ea_3bd615eb_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e1026f9_3e5e582b_4379
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM2:06=EF=BC=8CEli Zare=
tskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> How would that help=3F Until 3 is done, the user doesn't see the
> display updated. And if you think 3 doesn't touch any Lisp, then
> thats not true, just see how many times you find =22Lisp=5FObject=22 in=
,
> say, xterm.c.
>
OK. This branch of the discussion is for =40arthur=C2=A0miller.

If 3 can=E2=80=99t be done in separate thread, then we can keep them all =
as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=22. And let it do as less work as possible by s=
plitting some of work to background workers. Then better user responsiven=
ess is possible.



--5e1026f9_3e5e582b_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM2:06=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">How would that help? U=
ntil 3 is done, the user doesn't see the<br>
display updated. And if you think 3 doesn't touch any Lisp, then<br>
thats not true, just see how many times you find &quot;Lisp_Object&quot; in=
,<br>
say, xterm.c.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto">OK. This branch of the discussion is for @a<span style=3D=
"color: rgb(7, 29, 73); font-family: &quot;Helvetica Neue&quot;; background=
-color: var(--backgroundColor);">rthur&nbsp;miller.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: rgb(7, 29, 73); font-family: &quot;=
Helvetica Neue&quot;; background-color: var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span=
></div>
If 3 can=E2=80=99t be done in separate thread, then we can keep them all as=
 the =E2=80=9CUI thread&quot;. And let it do as less work as possible by sp=
litting some of work to background workers. Then better user responsiveness=
 is possible.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e1026f9_3e5e582b_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:26:24 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e102205_1a54d7bc_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zare=
tskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
> function),

Can threads in modules call Emacs functions=3F If yes, it is powerful.



--5e102205_1a54d7bc_4379
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM2:02=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">There are ways of comm=
unications (e.g., you can call any Emacs<br>
function), &nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>Can threads in modules call Emacs functions? If yes, it is powerful.</=
div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
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--5e102205_1a54d7bc_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:19:46 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e102078_5d5ce761_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM1:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zare=
tskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no
> way of displaying any messages=3F

Workers are background workers. They don=E2=80=99t display messages direc=
tly. They post the error messages to the UI part of the lisp application.=


=46or a lisp application such as an email client, it is splitted to two p=
arts: the UI part and the worker part. The UI part may has two callbacks(=
or event handlers):
1. on=5Fnew=5Femail
2. on=5Ferror

If the worker fetches an email successfully, it sends an event to the UI =
part and the on=5Fnew=5Femail callback of the UI part will be called. If =
the worker fails, it sends an error to the UI part and the on=5Ferror cal=
lback will be called. The on=5Ferror callback can display the error messa=
ge to user.



--5e102078_5d5ce761_4379
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itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=883=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM1:59=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=
=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no<br>
way of displaying any messages? &nbsp;</blockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Workers are background workers. They don=E2=80=99t displa=
y messages directly. They post the error messages to the UI part of the lis=
p application.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">For a lisp application such as an email client, it is spl=
itted to two parts: the UI part and the worker part. The UI part may has tw=
o callbacks(or event handlers):</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">1. on_new_email</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">2. on_error</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">If the worker fetches an email successfully, it sends an =
event to the UI part and the on_new_email callback of the UI part will be c=
alled. If the worker fails, it sends an error to the UI part and the on_err=
or callback will be called. The on_error callback can display the error mes=
sage to user.</div>
<br>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e102078_5d5ce761_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
Thread-Topic: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--_000_VI1P194MB0429FCDE82DC4F01333039AE96230VI1P194MB0429EURP_
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Aha. Ok, thx f=F6r the info. I didnt know lyckas implemented. Will take a l=
ook at server.el.



Skickat fr=E5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.



-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Fr=E5n: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Datum: 2020-01-03 15:26 (GMT+01:00)
Till: arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
Kopia: netjune@HIDDEN, michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
=C4mne: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web wor=
kers.

> From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
> CC: "38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 +0000
>
> I mean that emacsclient is sort of rendering thread while Emacs server is=
 sort of hard working part.

No, it isn't.  emacsclient just sends a command to Emacs telling it to
visit a file and display it in a frame.  All the rendering is done by
the "server", i.e. Emacs itself.

> I have honestly never looked at the code for server/client so I don't kno=
w how separation is done.

It's easy to see that by reading server.el.

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<div dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto">Aha. Ok, thx f=F6r the info. I didnt know lyckas implemen=
ted. Will take a look at server.el.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div id=3D"x_composer_signature" dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%; color:#575757">Skickat fr=E5n min=
 Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>-------- Originalmeddelande --------</div>
<div>Fr=E5n: Eli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt; </div>
<div>Datum: 2020-01-03 15:26 (GMT&#43;01:00) </div>
<div>Till: arthur miller &lt;arthur.miller@HIDDEN&gt; </div>
<div>Kopia: netjune@HIDDEN, michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807@HIDDEN=
org </div>
<div>=C4mne: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like we=
b workers.
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<font size=3D"2"><span style=3D"font-size:11pt;">
<div class=3D"PlainText">&gt; From: arthur miller &lt;arthur.miller@HIDDEN=
m&gt;<br>
&gt; CC: &quot;38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org&quot; &lt;38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org&gt;<br=
>
&gt; Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 &#43;0000<br>
&gt; <br>
&gt; I mean that emacsclient is sort of rendering thread while Emacs server=
 is sort of hard working part.<br>
<br>
No, it isn't.&nbsp; emacsclient just sends a command to Emacs telling it to=
<br>
visit a file and display it in a frame.&nbsp; All the rendering is done by<=
br>
the &quot;server&quot;, i.e. Emacs itself.<br>
<br>
&gt; I have honestly never looked at the code for server/client so I don't =
know how separation is done.<br>
<br>
It's easy to see that by reading server.el.<br>
</div>
</span></font>
</body>
</html>

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Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
> CC: "michael.albinus@HIDDEN" <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>, "38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org"
> 	<38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 14:19:40 +0000
> 
> > Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1?
> 
> > How would that help?  Until 3 is done, the user doesn't see the
> 
> Couldn't prepare and converting to bitmap, inclusive rendering the bitmap bo done in a separate thread from
> displaying the same?

We don't really generate a bitmap, it's an inaccurate description of
what the terminal-specific backend of the display engine does.

And if you change it to generate a bitmap, then doing so is most of
the work, and it needs to consult Lisp data, at least in its current
incarnation.  So proposing that this runs in a separate thread still
doesn't solve the problem of separating some significant workload from
Lisp, that is something that needs to be designed.

> Of course, displaying can not be done until previous work has finished, so I don't know if Emacs could
> interleave the work with something else useful?

In general, it is not useful to have a display system that doesn't
update the screen in near-real time.  If you ever tried editing via a
slow remote connection, you know what I mean.  So display must happen
very soon after the command which triggers it finishes, or users will
complain.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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 (message from arthur miller on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 +0000)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
> CC: "38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 13:35:49 +0000
> 
> I mean that emacsclient is sort of rendering thread while Emacs server is sort of hard working part.

No, it isn't.  emacsclient just sends a command to Emacs telling it to
visit a file and display it in a frame.  All the rendering is done by
the "server", i.e. Emacs itself.

> I have honestly never looked at the code for server/client so I don't know how separation is done.

It's easy to see that by reading server.el.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
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Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: RE: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
Thread-Topic: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
Thread-Index: AQHVvtIUlRPP0+Xs2kGZfAus7e+JfqfSzL+SgAA0zviAAA0p34AAWVcAgAELfYSAAK3LgIAA4FC2gAJOLACAALHIyw==
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--_000_VI1P194MB0429F49DDF16D1F3848B165D96230VI1P194MB0429EURP_--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: RE: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:45:51 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:45:51 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, arthur.miller@HIDDEN, 
>  38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix
>  3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it
> 
>  I think lots of work are in 2.
> 
>  Actually, 3 is also a lot of work. 
> 
> Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1?

How would that help?  Until 3 is done, the user doesn't see the
display updated.  And if you think 3 doesn't touch any Lisp, then
thats not true, just see how many times you find "Lisp_Object" in,
say, xterm.c.





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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:18:42 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:18:42 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
>  affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads
>  that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.  
> 
> Is it because there are many global resources in infrastructure of network and filesystem functions? 

Yes.  Every variable you want to reference is either global or local
to some buffer, for example.  Just look at any Lisp application in
Emacs and try to analyze its dependence on the global state, and you
will immediately see the problem.

> Is there an efficient way for threads in module to communicate with emacs core? It is used for threads to
> send result data to emacs core. The only thing I known is sending signals to emacs which is not too efficient.
> I would like emacs core to create an event queue for modules and modules can send events to the queue.

There are ways of communications (e.g., you can call any Emacs
function), but if more is needed, we can add that.  Some design is
necessary, though, to identify what else is needed and why.

> Yes. I don’t known how web browsers do this. Their web pages are rendered by different processes and then
> displayed in the same window. 

Shared memory?




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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:52:59 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:52:59 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> The threading support introduced in emacs 26 is cool. But it is too complex when every thread can control UI
> and interact with user. While the web worker model is much simpler.

How do you write a useful Lisp application for a thread if you have no
way of displaying any messages?  Besides, some low-level APIs you'd
use in any Lisp will display messages even if your code doesn't.

So some solution for user interaction from threads is still needed, or
else the thread system will not be useful for writing Lisp programs.




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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:23=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:47:49 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: =2238807=40debbugs.gnu.org=22 <38807=40debbugs.gnu.org>
> >
> > My understanding of the display flow:
> > 1. an event comes which causes redisplay
>
> More often than not, it is not an event, but a command that changes
> Lisp data (buffer text, overlays, text properties, position of point,
> new or deleted windows, etc.).
>

Thanks for your explanation.

> > 2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix
> > 3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it
> >
> > I think lots of work are in 2.
>
> Actually, 3 is also a lot of work.

Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1=3F


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Content-Disposition: inline

<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:23=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 =
11:47:49 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: &quot;38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org&quot; &lt;38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org&gt;<br>
<br>
My understanding of the display flow:<br>
1. an event comes which causes redisplay<br></blockquote>
<br>
More often than not, it is not an event, but a command that changes<br>
Lisp data (buffer text, overlays, text properties, position of point,<br>
new or deleted windows, etc.).<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
Thanks for your explanation.&nbsp;
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">2. the display engine =
prepares the glyph matrix<br>
3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it<br>
<br>
I think lots of work are in 2.<br></blockquote>
<br>
Actually, 3 is also a lot of work.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>Then 3 can be done in a separate thread from 2 and 1?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0eb8f5_20f88ea6_4379--




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Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:34:40 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e0eb658_622d8102_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
> affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads
> that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.

=46or web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from MDN=
(https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web=5FWorkers=5FAPI/Usi=
ng=5Fweb=5Fworkers):

workers run in another global context that is different from the current=C2=
=A0window. Thus, using the=C2=A0windowshortcut to get the current global =
scope (instead of=C2=A0self) within a=C2=A0Worker=C2=A0will return an err=
or.
The worker context is represented by a=C2=A0DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope=C2=
=A0object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are uti=
lized by a single script; shared workers use=C2=A0SharedWorkerGlobalScope=
). A dedicated worker is only accessible from the script that first spawn=
ed it, whereas shared workers can be accessed from multiple scripts.


--5e0eb658_622d8102_4379
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly<br>
affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads<br>
that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. &nbsp;<br>=
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>For web worker, they have different contexts. The following is from MD=
N(<a href=3D"https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Workers_A=
PI/Using_web_workers">https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_=
Workers_API/Using_web_workers</a>)<span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); b=
ackground-color: var(--backgroundColor);">:</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">
<p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 24px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; box-sizing: bo=
rder-box; max-width: 42rem; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51=
, 51); font-family: Arial, x-locale-body, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; lett=
er-spacing: -0.04447999969124794px;">workers run in another global context =
that is different from the current&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/Wind=
ow" title=3D"The Window interface represents a window containing a DOM docu=
ment; the document property points to the DOM document loaded in that windo=
w." style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; color: rgb(61, 126, 15=
4); text-decoration: none;"><code style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px 2px; b=
order: 0px; font-style: inherit; background-color: rgba(220, 220, 220, 0.49=
8039); border-top-left-radius: 2px; border-top-right-radius: 2px; border-bo=
ttom-right-radius: 2px; border-bottom-left-radius: 2px; font-family: consol=
as, &quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, courier, monospace; word-wrap: break-word;=
">window</code></a>. Thus, using the&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/Wi=
ndow" title=3D"The Window interface represents a window containing a DOM do=
cument; the document property points to the DOM document loaded in that win=
dow." style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; color: rgb(61, 126, =
154); text-decoration: none;"><code style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px 2px;=
 border: 0px; font-style: inherit; background-color: rgba(220, 220, 220, 0.=
498039); border-top-left-radius: 2px; border-top-right-radius: 2px; border-=
bottom-right-radius: 2px; border-bottom-left-radius: 2px; font-family: cons=
olas, &quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, courier, monospace; word-wrap: break-wor=
d;">window</code></a>shortcut to get the current global scope (instead of&n=
bsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/Window/self" title=3D"The Window.self re=
ad-only property returns the window itself, as a WindowProxy. It can be use=
d with dot notation on a window object (that is, window.self) or standalone=
 (self). The advantage of the standalone notation is that a similar notatio=
n exists for non-window contexts, such as in Web Workers. By using self, yo=
u can refer to the global scope in a way that will work not only in a windo=
w context (self will resolve to window.self) but also in a worker context (=
self will then resolve to WorkerGlobalScope.self)." style=3D"margin: 0px; p=
adding: 0px; border: 0px; color: rgb(61, 126, 154); text-decoration: none;"=
><code style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px 2px; border: 0px; font-style: inh=
erit; background-color: rgba(220, 220, 220, 0.498039); border-top-left-radi=
us: 2px; border-top-right-radius: 2px; border-bottom-right-radius: 2px; bor=
der-bottom-left-radius: 2px; font-family: consolas, &quot;Liberation Mono&q=
uot;, courier, monospace; word-wrap: break-word;">self</code></a>) within a=
&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/Worker" title=3D"The Worker interface =
of the Web Workers API represents a background task that can be easily crea=
ted and can send messages back to its creator. Creating a worker is as simp=
le as calling the Worker() constructor and specifying a script to be run in=
 the worker thread." style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; color=
: rgb(61, 126, 154); text-decoration: none;"><code style=3D"margin: 0px; pa=
dding: 0px 2px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; background-color: rgba(22=
0, 220, 220, 0.498039); border-top-left-radius: 2px; border-top-right-radiu=
s: 2px; border-bottom-right-radius: 2px; border-bottom-left-radius: 2px; fo=
nt-family: consolas, &quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, courier, monospace; word-=
wrap: break-word;">Worker</code></a>&nbsp;will return an error.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 24px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; box-sizing: bo=
rder-box; max-width: 42rem; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51=
, 51); font-family: Arial, x-locale-body, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; lett=
er-spacing: -0.04447999969124794px;">The worker context is represented by a=
&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API/DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope" title=3D"T=
he DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope object (the Worker global scope) is accessibl=
e through the self keyword. Some additional global functions, namespaces ob=
jects, and constructors, not typically associated with the worker global sc=
ope, but available on it, are listed in the JavaScript Reference. See also:=
 Functions available to workers." style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px; borde=
r: 0px; color: rgb(61, 126, 154); text-decoration: none;"><code style=3D"ma=
rgin: 0px; padding: 0px 2px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; background-c=
olor: rgba(220, 220, 220, 0.498039); border-top-left-radius: 2px; border-to=
p-right-radius: 2px; border-bottom-right-radius: 2px; border-bottom-left-ra=
dius: 2px; font-family: consolas, &quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, courier, mon=
ospace; word-wrap: break-word;">DedicatedWorkerGlobalScope</code></a>&nbsp;=
object in the case of dedicated workers (standard workers that are utilized=
 by a single script; shared workers use&nbsp;<a href=3D"/en-US/docs/Web/API=
/SharedWorkerGlobalScope" title=3D"The SharedWorkerGlobalScope object (the =
SharedWorker global scope) is accessible through the self keyword. Some add=
itional global functions, namespaces objects, and constructors, not typical=
ly associated with the worker global scope, but available on it, are listed=
 in the JavaScript Reference. See the complete list of functions available =
to workers." style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; color: rgb(61=
, 126, 154); text-decoration: none;"><code style=3D"margin: 0px; padding: 0=
px 2px; border: 0px; font-style: inherit; background-color: rgba(220, 220, =
220, 0.498039); border-top-left-radius: 2px; border-top-right-radius: 2px; =
border-bottom-right-radius: 2px; border-bottom-left-radius: 2px; font-famil=
y: consolas, &quot;Liberation Mono&quot;, courier, monospace; word-wrap: br=
eak-word;">SharedWorkerGlobalScope</code></a>). A dedicated worker is only =
accessible from the script that first spawned it, whereas shared workers ca=
n be accessed from multiple scripts.</p>
<p style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 24px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; box-sizing: bo=
rder-box; max-width: 42rem; caret-color: rgb(51, 51, 51); color: rgb(51, 51=
, 51); font-family: Arial, x-locale-body, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; lett=
er-spacing: -0.04447999969124794px;"><br></p>
</div>
</div>
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--5e0eb658_622d8102_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 11:18:42 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e0eb298_5204a191_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
> affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads
> that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.

Is it because there are many global resources in infrastructure of networ=
k and filesystem functions=3F

> We
> already have that available: you can write a module which Emacs can
> load, and that module can then start any number of threads doing any
> calculations or network communications you want. See emacs-module.h.
>

Yes. Is there an efficient way for threads in module to communicate with =
emacs core=3F It is used for threads to send result data to emacs core. T=
he only thing I known is sending signals to emacs which is not too=C2=A0e=
fficient. I would like emacs core to create an event queue for modules an=
d modules can send events to the queue.

Then it is possible to run guile in a module and write guile programs the=
re.


> > The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the
> > two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that
> > inefficient.
> >
> > We may design an IPC for their communication.
>
> =46or some data structures, yes. But buffer text and long strings are
> problematic, because the text can be very large.

Yes. I don=E2=80=99t known how web browsers do this. Their web pages are =
rendered by different processes and then displayed in the same window.




--5e0eb298_5204a191_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=882=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:21=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">Then these threads can=
not really run Lisp at all, nor even directly<br>
affect Lisp data. So in effect you want to be able to run threads<br>
that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data. &nbsp;</bl=
ockquote>
<div><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Is it because there are many global resources in infrastr=
ucture of network and filesystem functions?&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">We<br>
already have that available: you can write a module which Emacs can<br>
load, and that module can then start any number of threads doing any<br>
calculations or network communications you want. See emacs-module.h.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div dir=3D"auto">Yes. Is there an efficient way for threads in module to c=
ommunicate with emacs core? It is used for threads to send result data to e=
macs core. The only thing I known is sending signals to emacs which is not =
too&nbsp;<span style=3D"caret-color: rgb(39, 39, 40); color: var(--textColo=
r); background-color: var(--backgroundColor);">efficient</span><span style=
=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color: var(--backgroundColor);">. I=
 would like emacs core to create an event queue for modules and modules can=
 send events to the queue.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">Then it is possible to run guile in a module and =
write guile programs there.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span></div>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">The disadvantage is th=
at it is cumbersome to share data between the<br>
two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that<br>
inefficient.<br>
<br>
We may design an IPC for their communication.<br></blockquote>
<br>
For some data structures, yes. But buffer text and long strings are<br>
problematic, because the text can be very large.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
Yes. I don=E2=80=99t known how web browsers do this. Their web pages are re=
ndered by different processes and then displayed in the same window.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0eb298_5204a191_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:52:59 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e0eac91_71482545_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM5:14=EF=BC=8CMichael =
Albinus <michael.albinus=40gmx.de>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com> writes:
>
> > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we
> > don't
> > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.
> >
> > We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=
=9Dand run
> > another lisp machine for a worker.
>
> I'm not expecting to get a UI thread with all glories it is specified
> for web workers. I would already be happy if we could find a solution
> for supporting user input in a threaded package, as it is discussed in
> bug=2325214 and bug=2332426.
>
> Best regards, Michael.

The threading support introduced in emacs 26 is cool. But it is too compl=
ex when every thread can control UI and interact with user. While the web=
 worker model is much simpler.


--5e0eac91_71482545_4379
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itle></title>
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<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM5:14=EF=BC=8CMichael Albinus &lt;michael.albinus@HIDDEN&gt;=
=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">HaiJun Zhang &lt;netju=
ne@HIDDEN&gt; writes:<br>
<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">The point seems to be =
that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we<br>
don't<br>
have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.<br>
<br>
We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9Da=
nd run<br>
another lisp machine for a worker.<br></blockquote>
<br>
I'm not expecting to get a UI thread with all glories it is specified<br>
for web workers. I would already be happy if we could find a solution<br>
for supporting user input in a threaded package, as it is discussed in<br>
bug#25214 and bug#32426.<br>
<br>
Best regards, Michael.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>The threading support introduced in emacs 26 is cool. But it is too co=
mplex when every thread can control UI and interact with user. While the we=
b worker model is much simpler.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0eac91_71482545_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 10:05:59 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: dgutov=40yandex.ru, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsive=
ness. As far as I known, the
> > extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.
>
> Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode
> extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you=3F


I will try to do it when I have time.


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<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM11:32=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 =
12:02:35 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: dgutov@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
<br>
While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. =
As far as I known, the<br>
extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.<br></blockquote>
<br>
Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode<br>
extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you?&nbsp;<br>=
</blockquote>
<br>
<div><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I will try to do it when I have time.</div>
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--5e0ea18f_44380727_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Michael Albinus
 <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>, arthur miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>
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Subject: RE: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e0e9dbd_5953172f_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM10:52=EF=BC=8Carthur =
miller <arthur.miller=40live.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> > We can even keep all in emacs currently as
> > the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9Dand run another lisp machine > for a w=
orker.
>
> Isn=E2=80=99t emasc-server/emacsclient already already that=3F

Yes and no. The emacsclient do too less work to be a worker. Ratio of the=
ir work is 10:1=3F I would it to be 1:10=3F Workers should do most heavy =
work.


--5e0e9dbd_5953172f_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 PM10:52=EF=BC=8Carthur miller &lt;arthur.miller@HIDDEN&gt;=
=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection" dir=3D"auto">&gt; We can even keep all in=
 emacs currently as&nbsp;</div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection" dir=3D"auto">&gt; the =E2=80=9CUI thread=
=E2=80=9Dand run another lisp machine &gt; for a worker.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Isn=E2=80=99t emasc-server/emacsclient already already th=
at?&nbsp;</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<div>Yes and no. The emacsclient do too less work to be a worker. Ratio of =
their work is 10:1? I would it to be 1:10? Workers should do most heavy wor=
k.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0e9dbd_5953172f_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:47:49 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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 <PS1PR03MB360625E2B9C745C775311683B7270@HIDDEN>
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> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:47:49 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: "38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> 
> My understanding of the display flow:
> 1. an event comes which causes redisplay

More often than not, it is not an event, but a command that changes
Lisp data (buffer text, overlays, text properties, position of point,
new or deleted windows, etc.).

> 2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix
> 3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it
> 
> I think lots of work are in 2.

Actually, 3 is also a lot of work.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Wed, 1 Jan 2020 10:59:31 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
References: <aade4dc9-4992-4751-9706-9802389ff732@Spark>
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> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 10:59:31 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: michael.albinus@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  Your idea in fact means to have several isolated Lisp machines in the
>  same process. But how can we do something like that without a very
>  radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly
>  part of the global state? Buffers, global variables, windows,
>  frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to
>  access them. Emacs was not designed to allow that.
> 
> All those global resources are not accessible by workers. Workers can only access network, file system and
> other non-global resources. They only do the following things:
> 1. retrieve content from network, parse the data, and send the result(lisp data) to the UI thread to present it
> 2. communicate with subprocesses, parse the data from subprocesses, and send the result to the UI thread
> 3. do file indexing and send the index result to the UI thread
> 4. do other heavy work like mathematicl calculation and deep learning, send the result to the UI thread

Then these threads cannot really run Lisp at all, nor even directly
affect Lisp data.  So in effect you want to be able to run threads
that don't enter the Lisp interpreter, nor modify any Lisp data.  We
already have that available: you can write a module which Emacs can
load, and that module can then start any number of threads doing any
calculations or network communications you want.  See emacs-module.h.

>  The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the
>  two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that
>  inefficient. 
> 
> We may design an IPC for their communication.

For some data structures, yes.  But buffer text and long strings are
problematic, because the text can be very large.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: dgutov@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness. As far as I known, the
> extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.

Can you even remotely compare the degree of control the VSCode
extension language can have on the UI, with what Emacs gives you?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
References: <aade4dc9-4992-4751-9706-9802389ff732@Spark>
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Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2020 10:14:42 +0100
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HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN> writes:

>     The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we
>     don't
>     have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.
>
> We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=
=9Dand run
> another lisp machine for a worker.=20

I'm not expecting to get a UI thread with all glories it is specified
for web workers. I would already be happy if we could find a solution
for supporting user input in a threaded package, as it is discussed in
bug#25214 and bug#32426.

Best regards, Michael.




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bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:02:35 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e0c19e1_20f4bdad_4379
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While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good user responsiveness=
. As far as I known, the extensions of VSCode runs in separate process.
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM11:57=EF=BC=8CHaiJun =
Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> OK. I got it.
> One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion result is 100=
00 lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3=7E4s. This experi=
ence kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year.
> =E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Z=
aretskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:20:25 +0800
> > > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > > Cc: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> > >
> > > =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8C=
Eli Zaretskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > >
> > > This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by=
 an
> > > employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's st=
art
> > > with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.
> > >
> > > More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start=22, didn't I=3F=

> > >
> > > I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it=3F
> >
> > Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what=

> > we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations
> > Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some
> > applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will
> > collect some experience and understand better what additional feature=
s
> > do you need.

--5e0c19e1_20f4bdad_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto">While with the same dart project, the VSCode has good use=
r responsiveness. As far as I known, the extensions of VSCode runs in separ=
ate process.</div>
</div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM11:57=EF=BC=8CHaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=
=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto">OK. I got it.
<div dir=3D"auto">One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion=
 result is 10000 lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3~4s. T=
his experience kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #3498db;">Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 =
11:20:25 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
<br>
=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CEli=
 Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<br>
This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an<br>
employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start<br>
with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.<br>
<br>
More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start&quot;, didn't I?<br>
<br>
I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it?<br></blockquote>
<br>
Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what<br>
we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations<br>
Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some<br>
applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will<br>
collect some experience and understand better what additional features<br>
do you need.<br></blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0c19e1_20f4bdad_4379--




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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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OK. I got it.
One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion result is 10000=
 lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3=7E4s. This experien=
ce kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year.
=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:20:25 +0800
> > =46rom: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> > Cc: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> >
> > =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CE=
li Zaretskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> >
> > This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by a=
n
> > employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's star=
t
> > with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.
> >
> > More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start=22, didn't I=3F=

> >
> > I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it=3F
>
> Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what
> we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations
> Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some
> applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will
> collect some experience and understand better what additional features
> do you need.

--5e0c18c6_8f8b73f_4379
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itle></title>
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<body>
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto">OK. I got it.
<div dir=3D"auto">One example is lsp-mode for dart language. One completion=
 result is 10000 lines. And emacs doesn=E2=80=99t respond for about 3~4s. T=
his experience kept me away from lsp-mode for half a year.</div>
</div>
</div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM11:37=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 =
11:20:25 &#43;0800<br>
From: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
<br>
=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CEli=
 Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<br>
This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an<br>
employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start<br>
with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.<br>
<br>
More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start&quot;, didn't I?<br>
<br>
I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it?<br></blockquote>
<br>
Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what<br>
we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations<br>
Michael mentioned are really so grave. It could be that for some<br>
applications what we have is good enough. And if not, you will<br>
collect some experience and understand better what additional features<br>
do you need.<br></blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0c18c6_8f8b73f_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:47:49 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii
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Subject: RE: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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--5e0c166b_697d2d2_4379
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My understanding of the display flow:
1. an event comes which causes redisplay
2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix
3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display it

I think lots of work are in 2. During the work in 2, the display code nee=
ds to access many resources in lisp machine and even may eval lisp forms.=
 The resources it accesses are too wildcard, so that we can't copy the re=
sources to it and put them to queue. =46or multi-threading, we need a glo=
bal lock.

=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM9:39=EF=BC=8Carthur=
 miller <arthur.miller=40live.com>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> Cool idea.
>
> I have a question.=C2=A0 Is it even necessary for lisp machine to contr=
ol UI=3F
>
> Couldn't lisp machine post its =22ui events=22 to a some kind of render=
 queue and maybe input queue, instead of drawing and handling stuff immed=
iately in an OS window=3F That could decouple drawing from the rest and c=
ould open for some other interesting stuff when it comes for rendering.
>
> I don't know maybe another thread for input queue. Probably too much wo=
rk and I really don't know if that would be possible with Emacs architect=
ure, at least as of current.
>
> I mean does lisp machine really need to know where it draws=3F It could=
 as well just =22draw=22 some events to a queue which could be rendered a=
way in different passes, by different threads and so on.
>
> Skickat fr=C3=A5n min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.
>
>
>
> -------- Originalmeddelande --------
> =46r=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>
> Datum: 2019-12-31 01:42 (GMT+01:00)
> Till: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus=40gmx.de>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz=40=
gnu.org>
> Kopia: 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> =C3=84mne: bug=2338807: =5B=46eature request=5D: Support lisp workers l=
ike web workers.
>
> =E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli =
Zaretskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > > =46rom: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus=40gmx.de>
> > > Cc: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> > > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100
> > >
> > > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we =
don't
> > > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.
> >
> > We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how
> > much of =22UI=22 in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly=

> > because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the U=
I
> > does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine
> > simultaneously and asynchronously.
>
> What about the following idea:
> 1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles:
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + full featured: as the current running lisp machine in e=
macs
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + subset one: without all UI functions
> 2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master l=
isp machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the=
 web browser.
> 3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master =
lisp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling =
some APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don=
=E2=80=99t need to work across machines.
> 4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other.
>

--5e0c166b_697d2d2_4379
Content-Type: text/html; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Disposition: inline

<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">My understanding of the display flow:</span></div=
>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">1. an event comes which causes redisplay</span></=
div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">2. the display engine prepares the glyph matrix</=
span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">3. convert the glyph matrix to bitmap and display=
 it</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">I think lots of work are in 2. During the work in=
 2, the display code needs to access many resources in lisp machine and eve=
n may eval lisp forms. The resources it accesses are too wildcard, so that =
we can't copy the resources to it and put them to queue. For multi-threadin=
g, we need a global lock.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span></div>
<span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color: var(--backgroundC=
olor);">=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 &#43;0800 AM9:39=EF=
=BC=8Carthur miller &lt;arthur.miller@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=
=93=EF=BC=9A</span><br></div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<div dir=3D"auto">Cool idea.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I have a question.&nbsp; Is it even necessary for lisp ma=
chine to control UI?</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Couldn't lisp machine post its &quot;ui events&quot; to a=
 some kind of render queue and maybe input queue, instead of drawing and ha=
ndling stuff immediately in an OS window? That could decouple drawing from =
the rest and could open for some other interesting stuff when it comes for =
rendering.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I don't know maybe another thread for input queue. Probab=
ly too much work and I really don't know if that would be possible with Ema=
cs architecture, at least as of current.&nbsp;</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I mean does lisp machine really need to know where it dra=
ws? It could as well just &quot;draw&quot; some events to a queue which cou=
ld be rendered away in different passes, by different threads and so on.</d=
iv>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div id=3D"composer_signature" dir=3D"auto">
<div dir=3D"auto" style=3D"font-size:85%; color:#575757">Skickat fr=C3=A5n =
min Samsung Galaxy-smartphone.</div>
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>-------- Originalmeddelande --------</div>
<div>Fr=C3=A5n: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;</div>
<div>Datum: 2019-12-31 01:42 (GMT&#43;01:00)</div>
<div>Till: Michael Albinus &lt;michael.albinus@HIDDEN&gt;, Eli Zaretskii &l=
t;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;</div>
<div>Kopia: 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org</div>
<div>=C3=84mne: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web=
 workers.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=
=97=A5 &#43;0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #3498db;">From: Michael Albinus =
&lt;michael.albinus@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 &#43;0100<br>
<br>
The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't<br=
>
have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.<br></blockquote>
<br>
We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how<br>
much of &quot;UI&quot; in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly=
<br>
because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI<br>
does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine<br>
simultaneously and asynchronously.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>What about the following idea:</div>
<div>1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles:=
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &#43; full featured: as the current running lisp machine=
 in emacs</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &#43; subset one: without all UI functions</div>
<div>2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master =
lisp machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the =
web browser.</div>
<div>3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master=
 lisp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling s=
ome APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don=E2=
=80=99t need to work across machines.</div>
<div>4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other.</div>
<div><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0c166b_697d2d2_4379--




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bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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> Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:20:25 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> 在 2019年12月31日 +0800 AM12:26,Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>,写道:
> 
>  This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an
>  employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start
>  with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.
> 
>  More to the point, I did say “you could start", didn't I? 
> 
> I can’t understand this. Can you explain it?

Whatever application you have in mind, try implementing it using what
we already have regarding Lisp threads, and see if the limitations
Michael mentioned are really so grave.  It could be that for some
applications what we have is good enough.  And if not, you will
collect some experience and understand better what additional features
do you need.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:26=EF=BC=8CEli Z=
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> This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an
> employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start
> with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.
>
> More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start=22, didn't I=3F

I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it=3F

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<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=
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=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">This reminds me of an =
old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an<br>
employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start<br>
with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.<br>
<br>
More to the point, I did say =E2=80=9Cyou could start&quot;, didn't I?&nbsp=
;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>I can=E2=80=99t understand this. Can you explain it?</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0c0ffe_cbe5be9_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:16:13 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Michael Albinus
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM2:31=EF=BC=8CMichae=
l Albinus <michael.albinus=40gmx.de>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
>
> The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don'=
t
> have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.
>

We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9D=
and run another lisp machine for a worker.


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itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=
=97=A5 &#43;0800 AM2:31=EF=BC=8CMichael Albinus &lt;michael.albinus@HIDDEN&=
gt;=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;"><br>
The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't<br=
>
have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
We can even keep all in emacs currently as the =E2=80=9CUI thread=E2=80=9Da=
nd run another lisp machine for a worker.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
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--5e0c0f03_7e448de9_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8830=E6=97=A5 +0800 PM11:40=EF=BC=8CDmitr=
y Gutov <dgutov=40yandex.ru>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no=3F
>
> The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main
> thread.
>
> So the bit about not being able to access =22data in the UI thread=22 i=
s
> about no need for synchronization, I suppose.

Yes. That is what I mean. They can do heavy work without pausing user inp=
ut.


--5e0c0cb6_368db37e_4379
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itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8830=E6=
=97=A5 &#43;0800 PM11:40=EF=BC=8CDmitry Gutov &lt;dgutov@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=
=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">On 30.12.2019 17:23, E=
li Zaretskii wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">We have threads in Ema=
cs, so you could start by using them, no?<br></blockquote>
<br>
The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main<br>
thread.<br>
<br>
So the bit about not being able to access &quot;data in the UI thread&quot;=
 is<br>
about no need for synchronization, I suppose.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>Yes. That is what I mean. They can do heavy work without pausing user =
input.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
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--5e0c0cb6_368db37e_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM12:36=EF=BC=8CEli Zar=
etskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> The Lisp interpreter already sort-of =22queues=22 display changes, beca=
use
> it only changes Lisp data structures, and then the display engine
> references those data structures at display time. So those data
> structures serve as a kind-of =22queue=22, since redisplay runs when Em=
acs
> is idle (i.e., the last Lisp command completed its job).
>
> But the problem is in the other direction: it's not that Lisp somehow
> =22drives=22 the UI, it's that the UI frequently calls into Lisp as par=
t
> of its job. The simplest example is mode-line format: it includes
> references to variables, and can also include :eval forms that call
> the interpreter.
>

It is much clearer to me now. We can keep them all as the UI thread.

> Your idea in fact means to have several isolated Lisp machines in the
> same process. But how can we do something like that without a very
> radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly
> part of the global state=3F Buffers, global variables, windows,
> frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to
> access them. Emacs was not designed to allow that.
>

All those global resources are not accessible by workers. Workers can onl=
y access network, file system and other non-global resources. They only d=
o the following things:
1. retrieve content from network, parse the data, and send the result(lis=
p data) to the UI thread to present it
2. communicate with subprocesses, parse the data from subprocesses, and s=
end the result to the UI thread
3. do file indexing and send the index result to the UI thread
4. do other heavy work like mathematicl calculation and deep learning, se=
nd the result to the UI thread

Let the UI thread do as less work as possible.


> Your idea can be implemented with two processes, though. And there is
> already a package called emacs-async which does that:
>
> https://github.com/jwiegley/emacs-async
>

I knew this package. It is a good idea. Modern web browsers also use sepa=
rate processes to render page content(one or more pages per process). The=
y design specific IPC to let the worker processes to communicate with the=
 main(UI) process. They have good performance and good user responsivenes=
s.

I think emacs is much like web browsers. Both render large text content a=
nd care user responsiveness. We can learn from them.

> The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the
> two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that
> inefficient.

We may design an IPC for their=C2=A0communication.


--5e0c0b19_5451cf49_4379
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<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2020=E5=B9=B41=E6=9C=881=E6=97=
=A5 &#43;0800 AM12:36=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">The Lisp interpreter a=
lready sort-of &quot;queues&quot; display changes, because<br>
it only changes Lisp data structures, and then the display engine<br>
references those data structures at display time. So those data<br>
structures serve as a kind-of &quot;queue&quot;, since redisplay runs when =
Emacs<br>
is idle (i.e., the last Lisp command completed its job).<br>
<br>
But the problem is in the other direction: it's not that Lisp somehow<br>
&quot;drives&quot; the UI, it's that the UI frequently calls into Lisp as p=
art<br>
of its job. The simplest example is mode-line format: it includes<br>
references to variables, and can also include :eval forms that call<br>
the interpreter.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
It is much clearer to me now. We can keep them all as the UI thread.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">Your idea in fact mean=
s to have several isolated Lisp machines in the<br>
same process. But how can we do something like that without a very<br>
radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly<br>
part of the global state? Buffers, global variables, windows,<br>
frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to<br>
access them. Emacs was not designed to allow that.<br>
<br></blockquote>
<br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">All those global resources are not accessible by workers.=
 Workers can only access network, file system and other non-global resource=
s. They only do the following things:</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">1. retrieve content from network, parse the data, and sen=
d the result(lisp data) to the UI thread to present it</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">2. communicate with subprocesses, parse the data from sub=
processes, and send the result to the UI thread</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">3. do file indexing and send the index result to the UI t=
hread</div>
<div dir=3D"auto">4. do other heavy work like mathematicl calculation and d=
eep learning, send the result to the UI thread</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">Let the UI thread do as less work as possible.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">Your idea can be imple=
mented with two processes, though. And there is<br>
already a package called emacs-async which does that:<br>
<br>
https://github.com/jwiegley/emacs-async<br>
<br></blockquote>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
I knew this package. It is a good idea. Modern web browsers also use separa=
te processes to render page content(one or more pages per process). They de=
sign specific IPC to let the worker processes to communicate with the main(=
UI) process. They have good performance and good user responsiveness.&nbsp;=
</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">I think emacs is much like web browsers. Both render larg=
e text content and care user responsiveness. We can learn from them.</div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">The disadvantage is th=
at it is cumbersome to share data between the<br>
two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that<br>
inefficient.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>We may design an IPC for their&nbsp;<span style=3D"color: var(--textCo=
lor); background-color: var(--backgroundColor);">communication.</span></div=
>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0c0b19_5451cf49_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
In-reply-to: <PS1PR03MB36060210788E2BCB16A235D4B7260@HIDDEN>
 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:40:06 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
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> Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:40:06 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> Cc: 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
>  We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how
>  much of "UI" in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly
>  because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI
>  does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine
>  simultaneously and asynchronously. 
> 
> What about the following idea:
> 1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles:
>     + full featured: as the current running lisp machine in emacs
>     + subset one: without all UI functions
> 2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master lisp machine(for UI only), which behave
> like the UI thread(process) in the web browser.
> 3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master lisp machine. Workers can send
> messages to the master machine by calling some APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp
> machine, so GCs don’t need to work across machines.
> 4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other.

The Lisp interpreter already sort-of "queues" display changes, because
it only changes Lisp data structures, and then the display engine
references those data structures at display time.  So those data
structures serve as a kind-of "queue", since redisplay runs when Emacs
is idle (i.e., the last Lisp command completed its job).

But the problem is in the other direction: it's not that Lisp somehow
"drives" the UI, it's that the UI frequently calls into Lisp as part
of its job.  The simplest example is mode-line format: it includes
references to variables, and can also include :eval forms that call
the interpreter.

Your idea in fact means to have several isolated Lisp machines in the
same process.  But how can we do something like that without a very
radical redesign of Emacs, when so many things in Emacs are implicitly
part of the global state?  Buffers, global variables, windows,
frames--all those are global resources, and every thread will want to
access them.  Emacs was not designed to allow that.

Your idea can be implemented with two processes, though.  And there is
already a package called emacs-async which does that:

  https://github.com/jwiegley/emacs-async

The disadvantage is that it is cumbersome to share data between the
two instances of Emacs, and large amounts of data will make that
inefficient.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2019 08:40:06 +0800
From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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--5e0a98ec_2e48f044_4379
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=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=97=A5 +0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli Za=
retskii <eliz=40gnu.org>=EF=BC=8C=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A
> > =46rom: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus=40gmx.de>
> > Cc: HaiJun Zhang <netjune=40outlook.com>, 38807=40debbugs.gnu.org
> > Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100
> >
> > The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we do=
n't
> > have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.
>
> We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how
> much of =22UI=22 in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly
> because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI
> does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine
> simultaneously and asynchronously.

What about the following idea:
1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 + full featured: as the current running lisp machine in ema=
cs
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 + subset one: without all UI functions
2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master lis=
p machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the w=
eb browser.
3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master li=
sp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling so=
me APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don=E2=
=80=99t need to work across machines.
4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other.


--5e0a98ec_2e48f044_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageReplySection">=E5=9C=A8 2019=E5=B9=B412=E6=9C=8831=E6=
=97=A5 &#43;0800 AM3:19=EF=BC=8CEli Zaretskii &lt;eliz@HIDDEN&gt;=EF=BC=8C=
=E5=86=99=E9=81=93=EF=BC=9A<br>
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #1abc9c;">
<blockquote type=3D"cite" class=3D"spark_quote" style=3D"margin: 5px 5px; p=
adding-left: 10px; border-left: thin solid #e67e22;">From: Michael Albinus =
&lt;michael.albinus@HIDDEN&gt;<br>
Cc: HaiJun Zhang &lt;netjune@HIDDEN&gt;, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org<br>
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 &#43;0100<br>
<br>
The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't<br=
>
have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.<br></blockquote>
<br>
We do have that on MS-Windows. Except that you'll be surprised how<br>
much of &quot;UI&quot; in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly=
<br>
because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI<br>
does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine<br>
simultaneously and asynchronously.&nbsp;<br></blockquote>
<br>
<div>What about the following idea:</div>
<div>1. Make the current lisp machine be customized which has two profiles:=
</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &#43; full featured: as the current running lisp machine=
 in emacs</div>
<div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &#43; subset one: without all UI functions</div>
<div>2. Run the full featured one as emacs does now. It acts as the master =
lisp machine(for UI only), which behave like the UI thread(process) in the =
web browser.</div>
<div>3. Run some subset ones for workers. Workers are started by the master=
 lisp machine. Workers can send messages to the master machine by calling s=
ome APIs. The messages are copied to the master lisp machine, so GCs don=E2=
=80=99t need to work across machines.</div>
<div>4. Provide some APIs for them to communicate with each other.</div>
<div><br></div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e0a98ec_2e48f044_4379--




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
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In-reply-to: <831rslmxih.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Mon, 30
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 21:19:50 +0200
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
> Cc: netjune@HIDDEN, 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI
> does

This might confuse.  What I meant is that the Lisp machine controls a
lot of what the UI does, not the other way around (of course).




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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
In-reply-to: <87mub9u0ld.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Michael Albinus on Mon, 30
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
References: <aade4dc9-4992-4751-9706-9802389ff732@Spark>
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> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
> Cc: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>,  38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100
> 
> The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't
> have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.

We do have that on MS-Windows.  Except that you'll be surprised how
much of "UI" in Emacs cannot be done in a separate thread, mainly
because the Lisp machine is under such complete control of what the UI
does, and you cannot run several instances of the Lisp machine
simultaneously and asynchronously.




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From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 19:31:26 +0100
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:27:44 +0800
>> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
>>=20
>> I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as
>> web browser. The workers do heavy
>> work and provide the results to the UI thread. The UI thread only
>> displays the result and responds to user
>> input events which makes good user responsiveness.=20
>>=20
>> The web workers run in other context. They can=E2=80=99t access data in =
the
>> UI thread. They can only communicate
>> with the UI thread by calling some limited APIs.
>
> We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no?

The point seems to be that there is a dedicated UI thread. That we don't
have (yet) in Emacs, and I like this idea.

Best regards, Michael.




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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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 <PS1PR03MB360625E2B9C745C775311683B7270@HIDDEN>
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> Cc: 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN>
> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 18:40:49 +0300
> 
> On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no?
> 
> The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main 
> thread.

This reminds me of an old joke: when a shop owner was approached by an
employee asking to work 5 days a week, the owner answered: let's start
with one, and then gradually arrive at 5.

More to the point, I did say "you could start", didn't I?




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Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
 workers.
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
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 Content preview:  On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > We have threads
 in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no? The main point of Web Workers
 is that they run in parallel to the main thread. So the bit about not being
 able to access "data in the UI thread" is about no need for synchronization,
 I suppose. 
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On 30.12.2019 17:23, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no?

The main point of Web Workers is that they run in parallel to the main 
thread.

So the bit about not being able to access "data in the UI thread" is 
about no need for synchronization, I suppose.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 38807 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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 (message from HaiJun Zhang on Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:27:44 +0800)
Subject: Re: bug#38807: [Feature request]: Support lisp workers like web
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> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2019 13:27:44 +0800
> From: HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>
> 
> I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as web browser. The workers do heavy
> work and provide the results to the UI thread. The UI thread only displays the result and responds to user
> input events which makes good user responsiveness. 
> 
> The web workers run in other context. They can’t access data in the UI thread. They can only communicate
> with the UI thread by calling some limited APIs.

We have threads in Emacs, so you could start by using them, no?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.

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--5e098ad5_26f324ba_4379
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applications such as web =
browser. The workers do heavy work and provide the results to the UI thre=
ad. The UI thread only displays the result and responds to user input eve=
nts which makes good user responsiveness.

The web workers run in other context. They=C2=A0can=E2=80=99t access data=
 in the UI thread. They can only communicate with the UI thread by callin=
g some limited APIs.

See:=C2=A0https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web=5FWorkers=5F=
API/Using=5Fweb=5Fworkers


--5e098ad5_26f324ba_4379
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<html xmlns=3D"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"><head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dutf-8"><t=
itle></title>
</head>
<body>
<div name=3D"messageBodySection">
<div dir=3D"auto">I think the web worker is a good design for GUI applicati=
ons such as web browser. The workers do heavy work and provide the results =
to the UI thread. The UI thread only displays the result and responds to us=
er input events which makes good user responsiveness.
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
<div dir=3D"auto">The web workers run in other context. They<span style=3D"=
color: var(--textColor); background-color: var(--backgroundColor);">&nbsp;c=
an=E2=80=99t access data in the UI thread. They can only communicate with t=
he UI thread by calling some limited APIs.</span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);"><br></span></div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><span style=3D"color: var(--textColor); background-color:=
 var(--backgroundColor);">See:&nbsp;</span><a href=3D"https://developer.moz=
illa.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Workers_API/Using_web_workers">https://deve=
loper.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Web_Workers_API/Using_web_workers</a><=
/div>
<div dir=3D"auto"><br></div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--5e098ad5_26f324ba_4379--




Acknowledgement sent to HaiJun Zhang <netjune@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#38807; Package emacs. Full text available.
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