GNU bug report logs - #40703
Unable to turn off autoarg-kp-mode

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 03:20:50 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Severity: wishlist

autoarg.el "provides `autoarg-mode', a global minor mode meant to
emulate a facility reported from Twenex Emacs whereby digit keys
supplied prefix args rather than self inserting, with a digit sequence
terminated by space acting to insert the digits".

While searching the web, I could find no evidence of autoarg-mode
being discussed or even mentioned.  It is presumably not very useful
in this day and age.  (I also found a breaking bug in autoarg-kp-mode
where enabling it also enables autoarg-mode.  Nobody seems to have
noticed.)

Does anyone object to marking it obsolete?

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

[0001-Make-autoarg.el-obsolete.patch (text/x-patch, attachment)]

Message #8 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 17:08:39 +0300

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 03:20:50 +0200
> 
> autoarg.el "provides `autoarg-mode', a global minor mode meant to
> emulate a facility reported from Twenex Emacs whereby digit keys
> supplied prefix args rather than self inserting, with a digit sequence
> terminated by space acting to insert the digits".
> 
> While searching the web, I could find no evidence of autoarg-mode
> being discussed or even mentioned.  It is presumably not very useful
> in this day and age.  (I also found a breaking bug in autoarg-kp-mode
> where enabling it also enables autoarg-mode.  Nobody seems to have
> noticed.)
> 
> Does anyone object to marking it obsolete?

AFAIR, when we deprecate a package, it's because there's some
replacement, or because the need is completely absent (e.g., because
the package caters to some software or part of Emacs that is no longer
there).  This doesn't seem to be the case, is it?

Or does this package cause us some maintenance burden?

Message #11 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:25:51 +0200

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> AFAIR, when we deprecate a package, it's because there's some
> replacement, or because the need is completely absent (e.g., because
> the package caters to some software or part of Emacs that is no longer
> there).  This doesn't seem to be the case, is it?
>
> Or does this package cause us some maintenance burden?

Well, as it stands 'autoarg-kp-mode' is broken.  It enables
'autoarg-mode', which kind of defeats the point of having a separate
mode to only enable this behaviour for the keypad.  I suggest
deprecation as a better alternative than leaving it in a broken state
or spending any time to fix it.

I don't know if that's in line with our deprecation practices, but I
would assume there is some room to make judgement calls.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #14 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:57:52 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> > Or does this package cause us some maintenance burden?
>
> Well, as it stands 'autoarg-kp-mode' is broken.  It enables
> 'autoarg-mode', which kind of defeats the point of having a separate
> mode to only enable this behaviour for the keypad.

Not for me.  Works here.  Are you sure?

FWIW, I think the mode is potentially useful.  It would be more useful
if there would be a local version, and if enabling autoarg-mode would
still allow me to enter digits with the keypad (i.e. the other way than
autoarg-kp-mode, because e.g. ...what? mhmm, I wanted to write an
example including integers but I can't enter them anymore, I can't turn
off autoarg mode.  It's just broken.  Will restart Emacs.

What I wanted to say was that large numbers are probably easier to type
on the keypad, and they are unlikely to be used as prefix arg.

Michael.

Message #17 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 02:57:16 +0200

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de> writes:

> > Well, as it stands 'autoarg-kp-mode' is broken.  It enables
> > 'autoarg-mode', which kind of defeats the point of having a separate
> > mode to only enable this behaviour for the keypad.
>
> Not for me.  Works here.  Are you sure?

In "emacs -Q" using 26.1:

M-x autoarg-kp-mode
    Message: Autoarg-Kp mode enabled
[regular 2] a
   Buffer contents: 2a
[keypad 2] a
    Buffer contents: 2aaa
[regular 2] b
    Buffer contents: 2aaabb
M-x autoarg-kp-mode
    Message: Autoarg-Kp mode disabled
[keypad 2] c
    Buffer contents: 2aaabbcc
[regular 2] d
    Buffer contents: 2aaabbccdd
M-x autoarg-mode
   Message: Autoarg mode enabled
... same behaviour as above
M-x autoarg-mode
   Message: Autoarg mode disabled
... it's still not disabled

So actually the breakage here is worse than what I initially
described, since autoarg-kp-mode also can't be disabled.

autoarg-mode seems to toggle correctly though.

> mhmm, I wanted to write an
> example including integers but I can't enter them anymore, I can't turn
> off autoarg mode.  It's just broken.  Will restart Emacs.

It sounds like you see the same thing as me.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #20 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 03:27:55 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> It sounds like you see the same thing as me.

Exactly.

(defun autoarg-kp-digit-argument (arg)
  [...]
  (setq overriding-terminal-local-map universal-argument-map)) ;; <---

That's not good.  u-a-map contains the normal number keys (first
problem), and the overriding-terminal-local-map is never uninstalled
(that's why it can't be turned off).

Michael.

Message #23 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: stefan <at> marxist.se, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 17:29:36 +0300

> From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,  40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 01:57:52 +0200
> 
> FWIW, I think the mode is potentially useful.  It would be more useful
> if there would be a local version, and if enabling autoarg-mode would
> still allow me to enter digits with the keypad (i.e. the other way than
> autoarg-kp-mode, because e.g. ...what? mhmm, I wanted to write an
> example including integers but I can't enter them anymore, I can't turn
> off autoarg mode.  It's just broken.  Will restart Emacs.

Maybe we should just fix it so the mode could be turned off, then.

Message #26 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:02:46 +0200

tags 40703 - patch
retitle 40703 Unable to turn off autoarg-kp-mode
thanks

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> FWIW, I think the mode is potentially useful.  It would be more useful
>> if there would be a local version, and if enabling autoarg-mode would
>> still allow me to enter digits with the keypad (i.e. the other way than
>> autoarg-kp-mode, because e.g. ...what? mhmm, I wanted to write an
>> example including integers but I can't enter them anymore, I can't turn
>> off autoarg mode.  It's just broken.  Will restart Emacs.
>
> Maybe we should just fix it so the mode could be turned off, then.

OK, I'm updating the bug to reflect that.

FWIW, I still think this mode is more of a historical musing than it
is useful.  But I accept that I'm in a minority here.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Message #35 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>,
 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 19:59:00 +0200

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> FWIW, I still think this mode is more of a historical musing than it
> is useful.  But I accept that I'm in a minority here.

I agree with you.  It's a feature that clearly doesn't work, which
should be a good indication that nobody uses it.  Doesn't work + Nobody
uses it spells "should be obsoleted" to me.  (I may be using the wrong
dictionary here, though.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #38 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 01:01:55 +0200

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> I agree with you.  It's a feature that clearly doesn't work, which
> should be a good indication that nobody uses it.  Doesn't work + Nobody
> uses it spells "should be obsoleted" to me.  (I may be using the wrong
> dictionary here, though.)

Being able to use number pad for e.g. prefix args and numbers on the
first line for numbers as self-insert characters is not so unuseful.  Do
we have a replacement providing such a feature?

Michael.

Message #41 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 08:45:37 +0200

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de> writes:

> Being able to use number pad for e.g. prefix args and numbers on the
> first line for numbers as self-insert characters is not so unuseful.  Do
> we have a replacement providing such a feature?

The keypad bits of autoarg do seem like they could be useful, but that
it doesn't work, and nobody has complained, seems like a hint that
nobody wants that, either?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Message #44 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: michael_heerdegen <at> web.de, stefan <at> marxist.se, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: [PATCH] Make autoarg.el obsolete
Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 09:59:52 +0300

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 08:45:37 +0200
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>, 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> The keypad bits of autoarg do seem like they could be useful, but that
> it doesn't work, and nobody has complained, seems like a hint that
> nobody wants that, either?

I don't think we should make such decisions based on no one's
complaining: I've heard many times that people don't complain about
problems they bump into for any number of reasons.

I think we should decide whether this functionality is useful, and if
so, try to fix it, if that is feasible.  We should only remove it if
we don't consider this useful or if fixing it is not feasible.

Message #47 received at 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 40703 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#40703: Unable to turn off autoarg-kp-mode
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2022 10:56:38 +0100

Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> writes:

> While searching the web, I could find no evidence of autoarg-mode
> being discussed or even mentioned.  It is presumably not very useful
> in this day and age.  (I also found a breaking bug in autoarg-kp-mode
> where enabling it also enables autoarg-mode.  Nobody seems to have
> noticed.)
>
> Does anyone object to marking it obsolete?

I think everything here points towards nobody using this package, and
the way it's implemented is unfortunate.

Think making it obsolete might perhaps spur someone on to make a new
package -- if they want this functionality (which may be unlikely).

So I've now obsoleted it.  If it turns out that people are actually
using it, somehow, then we could reconsider.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

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