GNU bug report logs - #41117
"Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs manual)

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Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Bug GNU Emacs <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs manual)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 01:33:23 +0200

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

Hello,

I'm not sure about it, because it's against convention of using
``...'' in source file, but it's for '@section', so it's kind of
special case, which means it may be acceptable.

Attached picture shows before/after.

--- old/killing.texi    2020-05-03 01:31:57.259190700 +0200
+++ new/killing.texi    2020-05-06 23:39:16.942404300 +0200
@@ -452,7 +452,7 @@
 append to the text that @kbd{M-w} copied into the kill ring.

 @node Cut and Paste
-@section ``Cut and Paste'' Operations on Graphical Displays
+@section “Cut and Paste” Operations on Graphical Displays
 @cindex cut
 @cindex copy
 @cindex paste


S. U.

[killing.png (image/png, attachment)]

Message #8 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF,
 Emacs manual)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 05:35:33 +0300

> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 01:33:23 +0200
> 
> I'm not sure about it, because it's against convention of using
> ``...'' in source file, but it's for '@section', so it's kind of
> special case, which means it may be acceptable.

I don't understand the rationale, and the image is strange.  I should
have seen curved quotes there in the OLD version.  That's what I see
in the Info version.

Message #11 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:28:36 +0200

> I don't understand the rationale, and the image is strange.  I
> should have seen curved quotes there in the OLD version.  That's
> what I see in the Info version.

The image is screenshot of bookmarks panel.  You probably won't see
curved quotes there because, I think, PDF bookmarks can't show these
glyphs.  So, probably, it shows ASCII characters, i.e. ``...'' or
ASCII approximations.

Because in Emacs manual, in section "Quotation Marks", there are
presented two conventions for ASCII quotes - 'like this' and "like
this", I wanted to make it look more appropriate.  And that's why I
chose to change in source ``...'' to “...” - everything will look as
it is now, except for name in PDF bookmarks panel, which will change
from ``Cut and Paste''... to "Cut and Paste"..., so closer to the
convention of ASCII style of quoting.


S. U.

Message #14 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 20:32:54 +0300

> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
> Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 19:28:36 +0200
> 
> The image is screenshot of bookmarks panel.  You probably won't see
> curved quotes there because, I think, PDF bookmarks can't show these
> glyphs.  So, probably, it shows ASCII characters, i.e. ``...'' or
> ASCII approximations.

Not my experience.  I see curved quotes, AFAIR.  But even if this
isn't true, the Texinfo sources of the Emacs manual is not the place
to fix it, this should be fixed in Texinfo.

> Because in Emacs manual, in section "Quotation Marks", there are
> presented two conventions for ASCII quotes - 'like this' and "like
> this", I wanted to make it look more appropriate.  And that's why I
> chose to change in source ``...'' to “...” - everything will look as
> it is now, except for name in PDF bookmarks panel, which will change
> from ``Cut and Paste''... to "Cut and Paste"..., so closer to the
> convention of ASCII style of quoting.

We use quoting ``..'' like this in Texinfo because this is supposed to
produce curved quotes, as printed quoted text is supposed to look.  I
don't think it's right to change that because PDF looks wrong, it
isn't a problem with our manual.

Thanks.

Message #17 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:31:51 +0200

> Not my experience.  I see curved quotes, AFAIR.

Strange, for official PDF updated for 26.3, Adobe Reader, SumatraPDF,
and Firefox's PDF reader, all show ``...'' instead of “...”, here.

> But even if this isn't true, the Texinfo sources of the Emacs manual
> is not the place to fix it, this should be fixed in Texinfo.

If it's Texinfo problem, then yes.  I just tried to fix it the
simplest way possible.

> We use quoting ``..'' like this in Texinfo because this is supposed to
> produce curved quotes, as printed quoted text is supposed to look.  I
> don't think it's right to change that because PDF looks wrong, it
> isn't a problem with our manual.

I'm aware of ``...'' as a default way of printing “...”, but - again -
I wanted to fix it and this small change did it.  Because it wasn't in
the middle of paragraph, I thought it may be acceptable.

Since you don't want make any exceptions of this kind, I think I'm on
my way to "help-texinfo" mailing list.  Could you keep this open for
few more days?


S. U.

Message #20 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF,
 Emacs manual)
Date: Thu, 07 May 2020 22:51:14 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I'm not sure about it, because it's against convention of using
  > ``...'' in source file, but it's for '@section', so it's kind of
  > special case, which means it may be acceptable.

Texinfo is supposed to handle `` and '' in section titles.

Can you report what commands you executed to get this output?
Where in the output file did you see the error?


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #23 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 09:09:48 +0300

> Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 7 May 2020 21:31:51 +0200
> 
> Since you don't want make any exceptions of this kind, I think I'm on
> my way to "help-texinfo" mailing list.  Could you keep this open for
> few more days?

I didn't say I will close this.  And even if I did close, reopening is
very simple, see admin/notes/bugtracker for the details.

Message #26 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: rms <at> gnu.org
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Fri, 8 May 2020 17:32:38 +0200

>> I'm not sure about it, because it's against convention of using
>> ``...'' in source file, but it's for '@section', so it's kind of
>> special case, which means it may be acceptable.
>
> Texinfo is supposed to handle `` and '' in section titles.

It does inside text, but not in PDF bookmarks pane/panel.

> Can you report what commands you executed to get this output?

"texi2pdf --tidy emacs.texi", but it doesn't matter, because the
problem is in the official Emacs manual PDF as well.

> Where in the output file did you see the error?

The easiest way to see it:
Open https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/pdf/emacs.pdf e.g. in
Firefox, then look at bookmarks on the left, "Killing and Moving Text"
---> "'Cut and Paste' Operations on Graphical Displays".  You'll see
something like ``Cut and Paste" in the bookmarks panel.


S. U.

Message #29 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF,
 Emacs manual)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 23:51:21 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > We use quoting ``..'' like this in Texinfo because this is supposed to
  > produce curved quotes, as printed quoted text is supposed to look.

That is the standard TeX convention.  Texinfo, for making PDFs, is
based on TeX so Texinfo uses the same convention.

There is a project to replace Texinfo with a new input format.
(Unfortunately we can't use the other existing clean input formats,
because none of them can make all the distinctions we need to make.)
If you would like to be one of the developers, please let me know.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #32 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF,
 Emacs manual)
Date: Fri, 08 May 2020 23:54:39 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  >  > Texinfo is supposed to handle `` and '' in section titles.

  > It does inside text, but not in PDF bookmarks pane/panel.

It sounds like this is a bug in whatever program constructs
the PDF bookmarks pane/panel.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Message #35 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 18:51:06 +0200

Alright, back from Texinfo.

Thread link:
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-texinfo/2020-05/msg00031.html

Here is the important part:

>> 1.  In my "test" texi file there is a line:
>>    @chapter ``Some text'' and the rest of the @TeX{} text
>>
>> The point is, when I export file to PDF (texi2pdf --tidy test.texi,
>> with @documentencoding UTF-8), the bookmark that is created (PDF
>> bookmarks) has ``Some text'', while I was hoping for “Some text”
>> (curved quotes).
>>
>> I can "fix" it like this:
>>    @chapter “Some text” ....
>>
>> ("fix" in this case means getting "Some text" in the bookmarks, which
>> is at least ASCII style quoting convention, i.e. it's better)
>>
>> but is there any way to stick to the ``..'' convention?
>
> It would have to be implemented.  The problem is that the PDF format
> uses UTF-16 internally for the bookmarks, so using curly quotes here is
> quite difficult.  Hence we are stuck with ASCII in the bookmarks.  I
> guess that " is better than `` but this may also be difficult to
> implement.  `` is a ligature in the fonts used that is a curvy double
> quote but the PDF bookmarks are completely separate - you'd need to
> change the two tokens `` to something else somehow.

And few days later:

> I'm not planning on working on this soon.  It would be messy to 
implement
> and quotation marks in chapter titles are rare anyway.


So... can't we have one exception?  As I wrote, it's in @section, so
it could be special case - one special case.


S. U.

Message #38 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 20:30:28 +0300

> Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 18:51:06 +0200
> 
>  > I'm not planning on working on this soon.  It would be messy to 
> implement
>  > and quotation marks in chapter titles are rare anyway.
> 
> 
> So... can't we have one exception?  As I wrote, it's in @section, so
> it could be special case - one special case.

Sorry, no.  I don't want to fix Texinfo problems in our sources,
especially since these problems are subtle and the "fix" looks plainly
wrong to Texinfo users.  Someone will come later and delete it as a
mistake.

We will have to wait until Texinfo fixes this.

Message #41 received at 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 41117 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF, Emacs
 manual)
Date: Thu, 14 May 2020 21:05:42 +0200

> Sorry, no.  I don't want to fix Texinfo problems in our sources,
> especially since these problems are subtle and the "fix" looks plainly
> wrong to Texinfo users.  Someone will come later and delete it as a
> mistake.
> 
> We will have to wait until Texinfo fixes this.

OK.

I guess this bug can remain open until fix for Texinfo arrive
somewhere in the future.  But if you want another report in the
future, because it may take some time, feel free to close this one.


S. U.

Message #50 received at 41117-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, 41117-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41117: "Cut and paste" section name in bookmarks (PDF,
 Emacs manual)
Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2020 15:19:55 +0000

Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban <at> gmail.com> writes:

>> Sorry, no.  I don't want to fix Texinfo problems in our sources,
>> especially since these problems are subtle and the "fix" looks plainly
>> wrong to Texinfo users.  Someone will come later and delete it as a
>> mistake.
>> We will have to wait until Texinfo fixes this.
>
> OK.
>
> I guess this bug can remain open until fix for Texinfo arrive
> somewhere in the future.  But if you want another report in the
> future, because it may take some time, feel free to close this one.

It's enough that texinfo tracks this bug on their end, so I'm closing
this bug report.

Thanks for reporting the bug to the texinfo maintainers.

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