GNU bug report logs - #41403
A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

Previous Next

Package: emacs;

Reported by: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>

Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 14:22:03 UTC

Severity: wishlist

Tags: fixed

Fixed in version 28.1

Done: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

To add a comment to this bug, you must first unarchive it, by sending
a message to control AT debbugs.gnu.org, with unarchive 41403 in the body.
You can then email your comments to 41403 AT debbugs.gnu.org in the normal way.

Toggle the display of automated, internal messages from the tracker.

View this report as an mbox folder, status mbox, maintainer mbox


Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 19 May 2020 14:22:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org. (Tue, 19 May 2020 14:22:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>
To: "bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
Subject: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 13:08:45 +0000 (UTC)
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Hello GNU Emacs team,
Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?
As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with Lisp threads.
I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and maybe Julia too.
Regards,
Andrew Goh S M

[Message part 2 (text/html, inline)]

Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 19 May 2020 14:44:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #8 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 07:43:13 -0700
Hi Andrew,

Andrew Goh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org> writes:

> Hello GNU Emacs team,

Thank you for your interest in Emacs.

> Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without
> referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I

Do you have any concrete suggestions here?  We would of course like to
do things better, but we need concrete ideas to do that.

> understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?

M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'.  I'm not sure if that's
what you're asking.  It seems like I'm missing something.

> As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many
> languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with
> Lisp threads.

This is an ongoing discussion, and is anything but trivial to resolve.
I think we all agree it would be a good thing.  I would suggest you read
the recent discussion on emacs-devel about this.

One actionable thing today is to move forward with using lexical-binding
in more core libraries.  Anyone could help us with that by writing unit
tests for libraries in Emacs that are still using dynamic bindings.
That would give us confidence to move these libraries to
lexical-binding.  If you want to help, we would appreciate it.

> I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and
> maybe Julia too.

Do you mean here that you want to extend Emacs using Ruby and Julia
instead of Emacs Lisp?  I think that's a no-go, for various reasons.
One important issue for me is that it would fragment the Emacs
eco-system, and force users to learn many languages to extend any part
of Emacs effectively.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 19 May 2020 22:49:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #11 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 00:48:35 +0200
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> > understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?
>
> M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'.  I'm not sure if
> that's what you're asking.  It seems like I'm missing something.

I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
(meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.

Apart from that, I think the refcard offers a good overview.

Michael.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 19 May 2020 23:03:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #14 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 16:02:00 -0700
Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de> writes:

>> M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'.  I'm not sure if
>> that's what you're asking.  It seems like I'm missing something.
>
> I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
> (meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.

Right, okay.  If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added.

If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and
"S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it.  (If there's enough space.)

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 20 May 2020 00:56:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #17 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>
Cc: 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Tue, 19 May 2020 17:55:36 -0700
Hi Andrew,

Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg> writes:

> Hi Stefan,
> For the M-x command. All I wanted to know is what key combination on
> the keyboard that I should press, just as C-h, stands for pressing the
> Ctrl with the h key.

This information can be found in the tutorial (C-h t):

  Emacs commands generally involve the CONTROL key (sometimes labeled
  CTRL or CTL) or the META key (sometimes labeled EDIT or ALT).  Rather than
  write that in full each time, we'll use the following abbreviations:

   C-<chr>  means hold the CONTROL key while typing the character <chr>
  	  Thus, C-f would be: hold the CONTROL key and type f.
   M-<chr>  means hold the META or EDIT or ALT key down while typing <chr>.
  	  If there is no META, EDIT or ALT key, instead press and release the
  	  ESC key and then type <chr>.  We write <ESC> for the ESC key.

> As for extending Emacs with Ruby and Julia.  What I meant was to
> provide a Ruby and Julia programming mode.

As far as I can tell, there is already built-in support for Ruby. You
should just be able to open any Ruby file and be ready to go.
(There are many other useful Emacs packages for Ruby to find online.)

As for Julia, a quick search reveals this third-party package:

    https://github.com/JuliaEditorSupport/julia-emacs

You could install it from MELPA:

    https://www.melpa.org/

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 20 May 2020 13:38:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #20 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>
Cc: 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 06:37:39 -0700
Hi Andrew,

Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg> writes:

> Hi Stefan,
> Thanks for telling me the meta key stands for ALT-whatever, and about Ruby and Julia on GNU Emacs.
> I think there is a need for a new (Emacs) Lisp programming guide, since the last book was written about 10 years ago.  It should start with the basics of ELisp and show how to use other programming language modes.
> Before I let you off, I would like to give these suggestions:
> a.  Give the GNU Emacs package the look and feel of IDEs such as SQLite Studio, jGrasp or     Eiffel Studio etc, with distinct database/file area, work area, and output area.
> b.  Add another toolbar to add functionality in GNU Emacs and replace some of the Meta-key     and Control-key commands.
> c.  Use the right mouse button for additional commands and functions too.
> Regards,
> Andrew Goh S M

Thanks, I have forwarded this to the bug tracker to make sure this is
seen by others than me.

We appreciate your feedback and interest in GNU Emacs.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:43:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #23 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:42:04 +0200
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

>> I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
>> (meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.
>
> Right, okay.  If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added.
>
> If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and
> "S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it.  (If there's enough space.)

I don't think the refcard is the place to explain these keys -- the
refcard is for quick lookup when you know the basics.

The tutorial explains all this stuff, and that's the correct place, so
I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Added tag(s) wontfix. Request was from Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:43:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

bug closed, send any further explanations to 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org and Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg> Request was from Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:43:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Fri, 17 Sep 2021 18:46:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #30 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs <at> gmail.com>
To: Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>
Cc: 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 15:44:46 -0300
Hi Andrew,

there are many people trying to make Emacs more user-friendly, and
experimenting with different ways to do that. Most of these attempts
are announced at Sacha's Emacs Weekly News:

  https://sachachua.com/blog/category/emacs-news/
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-tangents/

My (own) preferred way to do that is this one:

  http://angg.twu.net/index.html#eev
  https://github.com/edrx/eev#introduction

In eev people can open a kind of an online version of a Reference Card
by typing just M-2 M-j. It opens something that looks like this:

  http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-emacs-keys-intro.html

and it is easy to define new (editable!) help pages.

Also, I think that the best way to get help is the IRC channel:

  https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannel

Cheers,
  Eduardo Ochs
  http://angg.twu.net/



On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:22, Andrew Goh via Bug reports for GNU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org>
wrote:
>
> Hello GNU Emacs team,
>
> Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?
>
> As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with Lisp threads.
>
> I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and maybe Julia too.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew Goh S M
>




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:58:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #33 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 13:57:33 -0700
Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

>>> I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
>>> (meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.
>>
>> Right, okay.  If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added.
>>
>> If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and
>> "S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it.  (If there's enough space.)
>
> I don't think the refcard is the place to explain these keys -- the
> refcard is for quick lookup when you know the basics.
>
> The tutorial explains all this stuff, and that's the correct place, so
> I'm closing this bug report.

I took a look at the refcards, and it is pretty full of stuff already.

One thing caught my eye, namely this information:

    Starting Emacs
    To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs

This seems useless, for two reasons:
A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".

This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Fri, 17 Sep 2021 22:06:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #36 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>,
 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 00:04:53 +0200
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

>     Starting Emacs
>     To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs
>
> This seems useless, for two reasons:
> A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
> B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".
>
> This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
> key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.

I agree.

Michael.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Sat, 18 Sep 2021 13:34:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #39 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2021 15:33:38 +0200
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> I took a look at the refcards, and it is pretty full of stuff already.
>
> One thing caught my eye, namely this information:
>
>     Starting Emacs
>     To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs
>
> This seems useless, for two reasons:
> A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
> B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".

Yeah, that's pretty useless.

> This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
> key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.

That's true.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:14:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #42 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 13:13:11 -0700
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
reopen 41403
tags 41403 - wontfix
thanks

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

>>     Starting Emacs
>>     To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs
>>
>> This seems useless, for two reasons:
>> A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
>> B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".
>
> Yeah, that's pretty useless.
>
>> This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
>> key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.
>
> That's true.

How about the attached patch?  I've checked it visually and it looks
okay to me, but I'm not exactly a TeX expert.
[0001-New-major-mode-with-font-locking-for-etc-AUTHORS.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Did not alter fixed versions and reopened. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs <at> gnu.org> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:14:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Removed tag(s) wontfix. Request was from Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:14:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 20:15:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #49 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 22:14:41 +0200
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> How about the attached patch?  I've checked it visually and it looks
> okay to me, but I'm not exactly a TeX expert.
>
> From 18d00dd62f71be36e0c19bfde25e7a31649ed3bf Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:46:44 +0200
> Subject: [PATCH] New major mode with font-locking for etc/AUTHORS

Wrong patch?  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 23:08:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #52 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 16:07:10 -0700
[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]
Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Wrong patch?  :-)

Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.
[0001-Add-section-to-refcard-explaining-our-keybinding-not.patch (text/x-diff, attachment)]

Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Tue, 21 Sep 2021 23:23:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #55 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 01:22:00 +0200
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.

Indeed.  After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks
OK to me.  Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 00:31:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #58 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>,
 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 02:30:09 +0200
Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> > Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.
>
> Indeed.  After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks
> OK to me.

To me, too.  I would not uppercase the X in the "meaning" version
though, that may confuse some people.

> Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards?

For comparison, there is Sacha Chuas beginner's guide:

  https://sachachua.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/How-to-Learn-Emacs-v2-Large.png

It says that Meta can be that special apple key, dunno the name of it.

Michael.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 14:42:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #61 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 16:41:40 +0200
Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.
>
> Indeed.  After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks
> OK to me.  Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards?

Control and shift matches exactly.  On my machine, the default key for
meta is the "alt" key (⌥), so I guess that matches as well:  the text
"alt" matches what is written on the keyboard.

(Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more
ergonomic on an Apple keyboard.  I have no idea why this isn't the
default.)




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:58:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #64 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> linux-m68k.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>,
 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:57:15 +0200
On Sep 22 2021, Stefan Kangas wrote:

> (Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more
> ergonomic on an Apple keyboard.  I have no idea why this isn't the
> default.)

I guess you have to ask Apple why they swapped the Alt and Cmd keys on
their keyboards.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab <at> linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:02:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #67 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> suse.de>
To: Mattias Engdegård <mattiase <at> acm.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>,
 Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:01:16 +0200
On Sep 22 2021, Mattias Engdegård wrote:

> I don't think they ever did. The left Command has always been to the right of the left Option (later also labelled alt).

That's exctly the problem.  What Apple calls the Option key, is the Alt
key on ordinary keyboards.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab <at> suse.de
GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE  1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7
"And now for something completely different."




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 18:49:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #70 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Mattias Engdegård <mattiase <at> acm.org>
To: Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> suse.de>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>,
 Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:47:56 +0200
22 sep. 2021 kl. 20.01 skrev Andreas Schwab <schwab <at> suse.de>:

> That's exctly the problem.  What Apple calls the Option key, is the Alt
> key on ordinary keyboards.

But they never switched the keys that you claimed they did.
Apple have their own keyboard design tradition and while they later reconciled their layout with that from IBM, they didn't somehow take IBM's keyboard and make arbitrary changes for nefarious reasons.

There isn't necessarily a bijection between Mac and PC keys. Option mostly corresponds to today's AltGr (for input of more characters) but is also used to modify function keys and mouse clicks. Command was originally designed as a more principled variant of the conventional Control  key (ie, for function keystrokes), but better located and without the historical TTY control code baggage. Later on Control was added to Mac keyboards as well for use in terminal emulators and the like, and is today just another modifier.

From your point of view you may wish that company this-and-that would have made different decisions and so do I (most definitely), but history is what it is.





Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 20:01:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #73 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:00:23 +0200
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Control and shift matches exactly.  On my machine, the default key for
> meta is the "alt" key (⌥), so I guess that matches as well:  the text
> "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard.

Then I think your patch makes complete sense, so please go ahead and push.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 21:26:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #76 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>
Cc: larsi <at> gnus.org, andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg, stefankangas <at> gmail.com,
 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 17:24:57 -0400
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space
and should not be too cluttered.  Could someone verify that?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)






Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 21:36:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #79 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
To: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg,
 stefankangas <at> gmail.com, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:34:52 +0200
Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:

> The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space
> and should not be too cluttered.  Could someone verify that?

The change removes as much as it adds, so it's fine.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 21:43:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #82 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Alan Third <alan <at> idiocy.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>,
 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:42:24 +0100
On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 04:41:40PM +0200, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> (Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more
> ergonomic on an Apple keyboard.  I have no idea why this isn't the
> default.)

Because we define NEXTstep shortcuts which are all on the command key,
so if we used it for meta as well they would get in each others way
quite quickly.

Plus the Mac's "option" is actually the same key as an IBM keyboard's
"alt", so when you plug in a PC keyboard alt and super do exactly what
you'd expect. In fact Apple keyboards even have "alt" written on the
option key.

And I think saying it's "much more ergonomic" is overstating the case
a little. The keys are right next to each other.

-- 
Alan Third




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:29:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #85 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Alan Third <alan <at> idiocy.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>, Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>,
 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:24 -0700
Alan Third <alan <at> idiocy.org> writes:

> And I think saying it's "much more ergonomic" is overstating the case
> a little. The keys are right next to each other.

Perhaps.  I wouldn't be surprised if I'm more sensitive to such issues
than the average user.

On the other hand, I also wouldn't be surprised if a not insignificant
fraction of our users find themselves in the same situation as me.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:29:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #88 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>,
 Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg>, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 15:28:36 -0700
tags 41403 + fixed
close 41403 28.1
thanks

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Control and shift matches exactly.  On my machine, the default key for
>> meta is the "alt" key (⌥), so I guess that matches as well:  the text
>> "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard.
>
> Then I think your patch makes complete sense, so please go ahead and push.

Thanks, pushed to master as commit bf0c072913.




Added tag(s) fixed. Request was from Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:29:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

bug marked as fixed in version 28.1, send any further explanations to 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org and Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg> Request was from Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Wed, 22 Sep 2021 22:29:03 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#41403; Package emacs. (Thu, 23 Sep 2021 06:25:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #95 received at 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
Cc: michael_heerdegen <at> web.de, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg,
 rms <at> gnu.org, stefankangas <at> gmail.com
Subject: Re: bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2021 09:24:31 +0300
> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi <at> gnus.org>
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:34:52 +0200
> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen <at> web.de>, andrewgoh95 <at> yahoo.com.sg,
>  stefankangas <at> gmail.com, 41403 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space
> > and should not be too cluttered.  Could someone verify that?
> 
> The change removes as much as it adds, so it's fine.

No, it adds more than it removes:

 etc/refcards/refcard.tex | 6 ++++--
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

However, I've generated the PDF file, and it still takes just 2 pages,
so this is okay.




bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs <at> gnu.org> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Thu, 21 Oct 2021 11:24:04 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

This bug report was last modified 2 years and 159 days ago.

Previous Next


GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.