Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2020 11:24:04 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 01 07:24:04 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55263 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kD4OR-0002PG-Qx for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 07:24:04 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f171.google.com ([209.85.208.171]:40491) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1kD4OQ-0002Oj-C0 for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 07:24:02 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f171.google.com with SMTP id s205so1033136lja.7 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 04:24:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wqSGog/mLFFnXNsjMgMHSNhSmLETgolt2JJLEwPnzow=; b=iKzsg3QssYL1yRDZ97GPZtbUyr2/BHXHD+EXbkd6MAmsMvrl9txbs2D1WkAhVtoHBP Dppw2Twq/rGjc9jhVJAVDfu4Ix6W5v2ViP+ivLtDrpte+oYg/2Mw/zvdv3UKjIEf83Os ukOBc6B+RfVcmYNdkS7wmnLXUsE11cn6VIkDWufS/opk0nNn4j0JjeFEfjSktB2dww+o oXIT4LUE1hrAbS+jo3SVeJ4Px8kpQpgOJVy4Gw92OzxY+f/YRqCRlfmr8rdQFHkadvNB VkqCM06qLkIq5LM63fIy0VPfCn33D+ZhyUmX1lr53vp8braTuI6enQe8ZgFu5PPAWpTY Znog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wqSGog/mLFFnXNsjMgMHSNhSmLETgolt2JJLEwPnzow=; b=CjYgn0HTdWK5RoRgjh/QrRulHbBdC+1ch2SSkokkqQGA0bijFoFYQA2dGkncS4lVwU 0WQEFAoAKH+PeoOlWDk6NDaV8HW2OYFKCnW2lLkhH0CG8yp7ZR6obbHIBvU00Iqf3i5i 9D2sZygWNTAxYzwKP/dhi1lmIqCkgvBfk9UupYl2IIYeKHLHm0Hz1dkx+J6y0jAUPz/A NH9s2Ut2ZD6dtWCy44yU+Jym38O/Tc5lgHUPe8Ngq0pJlSO6r1RyYx7PMPUexHhSbMa7 azAKizTfEPdeU6zWOAKFZIEik4CmlWB9u8nThzUEGB8E5mhuUWw5t0xzHydrLCwF7jCD xswg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531CmwXII7tVd7yUZZo8j8OFY16Rk7IicicKZMs5mPKk+7Unmvhs lB4JkB8THULZ/5G4gE0Ie38= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwtvcE83RqKyM3MtrsrxfhfiPUuLJimmZZYbitkcQU3HKRG0bv/wXJ6KSMLbhPV88ydA19gpQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:3012:: with SMTP id w18mr376246ljw.61.1598959436294; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 04:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id x73sm212301lfa.94.2020.09.01.04.23.54 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Sep 2020 04:23:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> <87wo1eikpi.fsf@HIDDEN> <84b1d158-8f97-3b79-91cf-22ab2cb58e9c@HIDDEN> <87sgc2ig63.fsf@HIDDEN> <cbd83df6-8af5-7e98-b2ec-752ee8bc1d4c@HIDDEN> <87mu29iweu.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <27f4163b-5f34-1df8-7992-cbeb7920f545@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 14:23:54 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87mu29iweu.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 01.09.2020 14:11, João Távora wrote: > Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > >>> other people would like these things, hence my proposal. I don't mind >>> the echo area jumping in height one or two lines once in a while, >> >> I mind. Unfortunately. >> >>> but if >>> others do, there are tools to control it, which we can leverage to good >>> effect. That's it. >> >> What tools? > > eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p, as I mentiond at least 3 times in this > thread. In my very first message, I asked what's the point of changing the strategy if we set this variable to nil. Please pay attention. >>> You said you wished for a command to "show documentation" and I >>> pointed >>> you to M-x eldoc, a new command which seems to do what you want, and >>> that you might not be aware of since it wasn't discussed. > >> And I told you its semantics are broken. > > I think you are still confusing M-x eldoc and M-x eldoc-doc-buffer, > which are two different commands. Ah, that very well may be. But if so, your advice wasn't great. M-x eldoc (if it only uses the echo area) is for showing small hints, not for showing documentation. > For the record, both commands and > surrounding functionality can and probably will be improved. Indeed. >> Showing the text intended to be displayed in the echo area (one line, >> usually; maybe a few) in a full-size window is ridiculous. > > This is not true in the generality of ElDoc usage, of course: LSP users > are confronted with very verbose at-point documentation. And very verbose eldoc messages, then? > And a window > and buffer in Emacs are not the same thing, something I assumed you > knew. Your point being? The said buffer is subsequently displayed in a normal window. Not in a "mini" window akin to minibuffer. >>> If you don't >>> wish to pursue this suggestion, fine. I am in no obligation to waste my >>> time replying to every new off-topic point you bring up, I do so only >>> where I think I can add value. Bickering with you is not one of those >>> things. >> >> If you try actually reading what I wrote, you might find some >> actionable suggestions there. > > I told you at least once that it's rude to accuse other people of not > reading your emails. It's a lie and a disrespect for the precious time > they invest in reading them and replying to them as they see fit. And it's not rude to snip off a third of the message your are replying to without any good reason? > Not > to mention wholly unproductive. Because I don't have time for this, I'm > putting you in my ignore list, joined by very few, if anyone. So now > you'll _know_ that I won't be reading what you write, and the reason why > I won't. It must be fun to see (or not see) one's commits surprisingly reverted because of a message you chose not to read.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2020 11:11:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 01 07:11:50 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55239 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kD4Cb-00026K-Qp for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 07:11:50 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f43.google.com ([209.85.221.43]:39236) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1kD4CZ-000264-5R for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 07:11:48 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f43.google.com with SMTP id a17so1049247wrn.6 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 04:11:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sv8SS2L7w52jN150HmmtC5yjVhmb6zS4XeLSTslhzIs=; b=EWpgWxoALC0RgSJE2/zJMK0lEcBlEAkH1L0EONwfuB1H3L4h7uYqJwPsdn0wQHzENK 8anFvyBdMfR+lwFqh2O2oq9znVa9OgPbZR0XLpt5JmmlAuAXp02nPCMir955FPxKr7Ez U5veebwpTcFQdSmDAsknzvU8e5IrWu1Mz8KO7LcBEqcvvhVrlmgoPlS8yCpRNfqCRogg YTp5gecTVAtCbQvRFfZCSxa5638qhxx4UnFEY94gWFEfe6OI/a3BlZOCnDuN2uXAiwn6 M4UA5eRDavZlC75eO/HCujLhqV+xW7ZBCRHoqEN3S7WoP45yg6jFWn5mEgCGjwO6ptJU NHnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Sv8SS2L7w52jN150HmmtC5yjVhmb6zS4XeLSTslhzIs=; b=KYXz3DNt3E6x+Ly8nAQEjEsOX0lwPWXdLY6DGqG4nCdSsOyBC9Se/rpvkxxqSZoUyl s6eL0G6eNWRK0RBdSUo+EUUlpA8qRI/1S3i1NFyvPf7Q9FAnQovR83iMA4eEZxNMruDy jTwbzAwPx5VUJgFNVUpiw3sDZbvXToRRSDSkEhUnvMgQo3KUiROXFodRpmVTB5roFo2Z XFeCoqds8JUiXdJEKAC6r9aQFqyRLmHPTQGk1n3/oWBrTd2Xg/Mr9gkUnqhweDPlN3p/ RrCMSq2phcXRU42dwyC6DN6gmsz92fHT+vB2R78ErFaVurwGTTtX1BBDWVvHrt/Bm18F xrhQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ZVJcqI5+WEFLClaMQNEuXrKtKIAAuxY0qlm1mf95mk3JL+qhH g++57R6JflimvOtS8dyiTQQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz6DlnQHYsQ4ghRzp91T+ebVFrUWHm6lrLbqalIkyLeKKi0S3Dw68RlgaxGZtVFxVjTgMBYJA== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e54f:: with SMTP id z15mr1292531wrm.136.1598958701482; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 04:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (77.68.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt. [93.108.68.77]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h185sm1494361wme.25.2020.09.01.04.11.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Tue, 01 Sep 2020 04:11:40 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> <87wo1eikpi.fsf@HIDDEN> <84b1d158-8f97-3b79-91cf-22ab2cb58e9c@HIDDEN> <87sgc2ig63.fsf@HIDDEN> <cbd83df6-8af5-7e98-b2ec-752ee8bc1d4c@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2020 12:11:37 +0100 In-Reply-To: <cbd83df6-8af5-7e98-b2ec-752ee8bc1d4c@HIDDEN> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 1 Sep 2020 13:52:00 +0300") Message-ID: <87mu29iweu.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: >> other people would like these things, hence my proposal. I don't mind >> the echo area jumping in height one or two lines once in a while, > > I mind. Unfortunately. > >> but if >> others do, there are tools to control it, which we can leverage to good >> effect. That's it. > > What tools? eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p, as I mentiond at least 3 times in this thread. >> You said you wished for a command to "show documentation" and I >> pointed >> you to M-x eldoc, a new command which seems to do what you want, and >> that you might not be aware of since it wasn't discussed. > And I told you its semantics are broken. I think you are still confusing M-x eldoc and M-x eldoc-doc-buffer, which are two different commands. For the record, both commands and surrounding functionality can and probably will be improved. > Showing the text intended to be displayed in the echo area (one line, > usually; maybe a few) in a full-size window is ridiculous. This is not true in the generality of ElDoc usage, of course: LSP users are confronted with very verbose at-point documentation. And a window and buffer in Emacs are not the same thing, something I assumed you knew. >> If you don't >> wish to pursue this suggestion, fine. I am in no obligation to waste my >> time replying to every new off-topic point you bring up, I do so only >> where I think I can add value. Bickering with you is not one of those >> things. > > If you try actually reading what I wrote, you might find some > actionable suggestions there. I told you at least once that it's rude to accuse other people of not reading your emails. It's a lie and a disrespect for the precious time they invest in reading them and replying to them as they see fit. Not to mention wholly unproductive. Because I don't have time for this, I'm putting you in my ignore list, joined by very few, if anyone. So now you'll _know_ that I won't be reading what you write, and the reason why I won't. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Sep 2020 10:52:11 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Sep 01 06:52:11 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55213 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kD3tb-0001df-7G for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 06:52:11 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-f52.google.com ([209.85.167.52]:37930) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1kD3tY-0001dR-BE for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 06:52:09 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-f52.google.com with SMTP id y11so503581lfl.5 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 03:52:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=A31Kek3VhhE2V8xbLKQ6pmRSEQhf77wjkFRvW6ukSrk=; b=vJtakL31nwnN5PxD4f5xaeJODyWj70+7ZrZC+VUEJwX+2HdPOEhJ77J1dw8nzswIO1 ClEMVRHajhpZtiy58H5AMpO54koipVXjz08WT9PHDcQBH7y8NotWLcVqfl3FYCrYWubp zaZmu/yDjxiPlEDHdrxJn4bTsbGG0OcscHzMLPYc5+vKVMm5Eaqt+NfccTxoEWZc5kYa lbxvlhoU3eO9M0U+5c7IfYMcGvD9JywvEwdRN5ZIxhQ2e0CY/vQk7KcDXEyO2jN8Zv1H Wt0AmL9l2C010oErmX3liH6T5lDvHrSJ3gncnKtcmgUbaIHr0Pebj7axfjZW5T/+FmnJ /FSQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=A31Kek3VhhE2V8xbLKQ6pmRSEQhf77wjkFRvW6ukSrk=; b=CtPWyP+6Kw5MzLChJUxknkCxtOXP7Wk8hcKZ9eQbaK9yrQX+Tp4BD8UOiWNaTgNedf v4dzIzrWrgwFDUcT+to6fNWvyQAJZhwTyYA9q6INljQ4nrgseT0yx/yfxdBl54SRs2c9 fTHGsr7rM0bUlQ7Dka6G9JbiilLGiDxbcd4UuybwvsUdhMORGje8clWWX3qhGMJs4LsO GrwNt7MBQ3qH1Arq+p86K6bmZy/v9Kq6NwqnTgs/ft28VRpDYD3FMqkGBN7GXIRiPEW3 je59bG+fh7FmSt8TYVWWiUxY1YUEnvVKLyLPKJVlY31aP1aBGsU9CvXUhiFt0nZm86ka w32A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530ql0uKL+GPYvIx2hqP2P0xH/wxIgwUBo/iacgW/GmE/TWTQX8M TcHymrUuxluT+UrqU1064Tg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyZx2ZAsrX/Icx1SH3nG6FtrUq63Zb6r9/dtZyuosyMWZJSzGBlfZfhbyT14gW/2TzH1smP+A== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3143:: with SMTP id s3mr310512lfi.154.1598957522119; Tue, 01 Sep 2020 03:52:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y5sm194867lfy.88.2020.09.01.03.52.00 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Sep 2020 03:52:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> <87wo1eikpi.fsf@HIDDEN> <84b1d158-8f97-3b79-91cf-22ab2cb58e9c@HIDDEN> <87sgc2ig63.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <cbd83df6-8af5-7e98-b2ec-752ee8bc1d4c@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 13:52:00 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87sgc2ig63.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 01.09.2020 01:50, João Távora wrote: > The echo area > has been there from ElDoc's first design, it is not one of the new tools > that ElDoc offers now. My point is -- as is well-known -- the echo area has a long-standing problem. If the message is multiline, the windows will jump. Since the echo area is still the main means of conveying Eldoc notifications, changing Eldoc behavior to multiline messages is problematic. > For your benefit, and to wrap up this exchange, here's a summary of what > I propose: In Elisp mode, I've experimented with the > `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy and I like the results: it's > useful to have Elisp function signatures, Elisp variable documentation > and Elisp diagnostics displayed somewhere, constantly updated. Indeed. > I think > other people would like these things, hence my proposal. I don't mind > the echo area jumping in height one or two lines once in a while, I mind. Unfortunately. > but if > others do, there are tools to control it, which we can leverage to good > effect. That's it. What tools? >>>> One particular way it's unfortunate, is I actually *would* like a >>>> generic "show documentation" feature with an existing key >>>> binding. Shame it doesn't really work for that purpose. >>> Try M-x eldoc and global-set-key and tell us what's missing. >> >> Already told you. I'm not sure how many different ways I can explain >> things, if you keep snipping those explanations out. > > You said you wished for a command to "show documentation" and I pointed > you to M-x eldoc, a new command which seems to do what you want, and > that you might not be aware of since it wasn't discussed. And I told you its semantics are broken. Showing the text intended to be displayed in the echo area (one line, usually; maybe a few) in a full-size window is ridiculous. > If you don't > wish to pursue this suggestion, fine. I am in no obligation to waste my > time replying to every new off-topic point you bring up, I do so only > where I think I can add value. Bickering with you is not one of those > things. If you try actually reading what I wrote, you might find some actionable suggestions there.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 22:50:25 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 31 18:50:25 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54043 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCsd7-0008Hi-Cg for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 18:50:25 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f54.google.com ([209.85.128.54]:51664) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1kCsd4-0008HO-5H for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 18:50:24 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f54.google.com with SMTP id w2so972103wmi.1 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:50:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=t0q8D0IrrBG0v+G7RzKjfHMqGeeEII78LQJTLp8RXxk=; b=hFAPB4z/EHhQOyJnNogI3l22M94DYZAHkmyM2kgy72aUKnS2tfA6DzkIPS15FBSdJz vP7LxTqQbIKWbNHrAw8T1x4PaHb/pTC3GfWjKBkHI7CQzUnXwDgwOyK25NO3/BKerE5j y3plTRK7Ko8gGscLiUoC1Be4eFEMu+YXIFQqjfF2Z7OId58ydHR8uCGtk7ppRxj6kWZQ POx6ETflDitCEEv/EIyzzSrsWuMzuFy2glpjSf6wI0SoNG0ogAsYBDIHSpm8k0jvsTej Yo7hyj0OiI3YkmSWf4n8hFFms7OB3APpO8XODUNDmR/PD94GB9rNjKNvOJa+cB1rpW8y 56Sw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=t0q8D0IrrBG0v+G7RzKjfHMqGeeEII78LQJTLp8RXxk=; b=PKORyIok0m6WIoTSMk1NzytYgbcJJ1e4+LnV+JOjj9Ur7lBvO4xLfi4n4cY3tq+bTp 77s0LELDZfNhZa9KMbu7kvKbvBA3u0qWXtxfzSTEI34I2i4dOtNH4HRiez12SphMjW1L RuibowK5RDKahpVi3j/dwCbhqrF0ehCEt3Jp9r9nsMJBtwfOFag82OxsUf7hU49X3/c2 DS0RKbpAc5KMV4r4zSYUavuffveJ+mDkr4bg1dX1SCBLgEY5M/HEX1YUy/rSwPmQdjrS jvLAN1w3iJJ+M63RgB2T4JIf1xwrVGopBBsdsULx8HZ5yzkfIb66uUwqY9mt0KQjOc4S p4kw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531zrw7LbhVs3BvmRze3GUCX9t9nSLqm/0h+l8e+v0AhufOgctSe S9e6RMKEfFZUfAtYdK+4C1k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxKn1bN8ixBUj5zF943Anv6odxC0uruaR5N584m5NC7TIV5bo2qpQ1+6hZlzoOiWSnd+g6uCw== X-Received: by 2002:a7b:c0c8:: with SMTP id s8mr1399005wmh.4.1598914216181; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:50:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (214.221.137.78.rev.vodafone.pt. [78.137.221.214]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o4sm11256783wrv.86.2020.08.31.15.50.14 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 15:50:14 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> <87wo1eikpi.fsf@HIDDEN> <84b1d158-8f97-3b79-91cf-22ab2cb58e9c@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:50:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <84b1d158-8f97-3b79-91cf-22ab2cb58e9c@HIDDEN> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Tue, 1 Sep 2020 00:20:59 +0300") Message-ID: <87sgc2ig63.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > On 01.09.2020 00:12, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: >> Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: >>=20 >>> On 31.08.2020 23:25, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: >>> >>>>>>> These is definite wisdom in that. >>>>>> I see only signs of rudimentary intial design which predates >>>>>> eldoc-...-multiline-p, composition, Flymake... >>>>> That doesn't mean the initial design didn't get something right. >>>>> If it didn't, this aspect would have likely changed by now. >>>> It couldn't change because there weren't the tools for it to change. >>>> There are now. >>> I don't think so. It still uses the echo area. >> The echo area is not one of the new tools. > You're making my point here. If you say so, I really have no clue what your point is. The echo area has been there from ElDoc's first design, it is not one of the new tools that ElDoc offers now. For your benefit, and to wrap up this exchange, here's a summary of what I propose: In Elisp mode, I've experimented with the `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy and I like the results: it's useful to have Elisp function signatures, Elisp variable documentation and Elisp diagnostics displayed somewhere, constantly updated. I think other people would like these things, hence my proposal. I don't mind the echo area jumping in height one or two lines once in a while, but if others do, there are tools to control it, which we can leverage to good effect. That's it. >>> One particular way it's unfortunate, is I actually *would* like a >>> generic "show documentation" feature with an existing key >>> binding. Shame it doesn't really work for that purpose. >> Try M-x eldoc and global-set-key and tell us what's missing. > > Already told you. I'm not sure how many different ways I can explain > things, if you keep snipping those explanations out. You said you wished for a command to "show documentation" and I pointed you to M-x eldoc, a new command which seems to do what you want, and that you might not be aware of since it wasn't discussed. If you don't wish to pursue this suggestion, fine. I am in no obligation to waste my time replying to every new off-topic point you bring up, I do so only where I think I can add value. Bickering with you is not one of those things. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 21:21:12 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 31 17:21:12 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53954 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCrEl-0006A9-Ms for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:21:11 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f196.google.com ([209.85.208.196]:41420) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1kCrEg-000699-H7 for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:21:09 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f196.google.com with SMTP id y4so7328291ljk.8 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:21:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SSv7U0U6y+tHiOTsKEtC9hVk8br6+fvvdu5vbKinnf4=; b=OC3eWTw2CEWzP6E5G+P48P6DykNPBk4qtU1x+NoTPRa9jLZjCExr27RKT1rEO1clyl K3F77D8Q/S1RM2ImdZZpqg8+dH3dsJyK88OKnFFO0nJ+SxzjrFnm/sNO6LELe3VJggHD qAYhNFLJ7y4am8yeZ4H9CNE2S5NziO6gfdEL9GTSl+AzBvXDM79Y6d1mo2VELy7t3CyM RkWvyCimqRF21PPVTWwkHy7YD6uFojvjHmZfJK9uiWZWI3yH1pG9IxUDuilo2rk0PTHK fSEgG7YMIrFbu40F0duBfNAseZ6wTj2F47qdqs+OnLxrBw4K/o91uAizdgx/wqgfrvX+ 18pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SSv7U0U6y+tHiOTsKEtC9hVk8br6+fvvdu5vbKinnf4=; b=t3QQLvlmZvHvIMvuGttH/N8O44O3UOmWXnOEOzaT0yCpJz/s1vqGfDxNnORvRlRBuL RKuhJ6U8X/ucLJB4EIEvoEQ7qISBtLo+/r1bGdlHu9wA/f5Beoc/g27jFiyIlWysFe2E uPcw3nCsnERfPKIz+aWjFfRAaialiJqUCfrp+oUl/H4fklESvGPeInRGfBXR1My8ft8F 1O+NocabpubdXRCALAo2N1GaldL96Ne+8wz+03+gV44fVZcEXRnQ+GTPtYhZ5gp2QoTr aFW/LWTa16xJSvshqk1qNx+33j+m7PVGYZxn2YOYoLxUUWUZkMryv7s6egh1+mUOlDsS tCBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532pAhAQJi+wP1W6NHpZhjaYb83nbfnz1GI7Uu1JTsGOJ8g+RxDw iQafZ9R3JVN0NBYutPjG+cM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxcvUAEynBewA4Ujz8RewxaZ0NjvPwaU3vGXKLohG22x7FKyn7zV2g2esSMLNsZSs2ftPspZA== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:6f17:: with SMTP id k23mr1526045ljc.245.1598908860445; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id g63sm2225600lfd.28.2020.08.31.14.20.59 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> <87wo1eikpi.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <84b1d158-8f97-3b79-91cf-22ab2cb58e9c@HIDDEN> Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2020 00:20:59 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87wo1eikpi.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 01.09.2020 00:12, João Távora wrote: > Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > >> On 31.08.2020 23:25, João Távora wrote: >> >>>>>> These is definite wisdom in that. >>>>> I see only signs of rudimentary intial design which predates >>>>> eldoc-...-multiline-p, composition, Flymake... >>>> That doesn't mean the initial design didn't get something right. >>>> If it didn't, this aspect would have likely changed by now. >>> It couldn't change because there weren't the tools for it to change. >>> There are now. >> >> I don't think so. It still uses the echo area. > > The echo area is not one of the new tools. You're making my point here. >> Many of us here program in multiple programming languages. >> >> Having major modes exhibit different behaviors where they don't have >> to is jarring. > > Shall I enumerate variables that are set differently per major-mode? > Your argument is very odd: every major mode has different behaviours, > including for example the shape and form of the elements of > eldoc-documentation-functions. One reason we create minor modes, unified bindings, and so on, is to make the behavior in general more predictable and uniform. So that one doesn't need to re-learn Emacs entirely when editing a file in a different format. >> They don't have multiple documentation sources? One from major mode, >> another from Flymake, at least. > > But you don't know in general the form of each of those, or if there may > be more, or other characteristics. That looks like a drawback of your latest redesign (which I pointed out previously, but who cares about that). The strategy is a global variable, and it's user-customizable. And yet, somehow, now you're getting worried that different strategies might only suit some major modes? >>>>>>> - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can still >>>>>>> get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new >>>>>>> `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buffer >>>>>> >>>>>> Is that the only benefit? >>>>> No. >>>> >>>> Any others? >>> For example, it can be used to have ElDoc information permanently >>> visible in another frame. >> >> In the default configuration? > > Yes. The command. Not the strategy? >> You're proposing to change the default configuration. >> >> To clarify, I was asking whether this was the only benefit of changing >> the strategy if we also set eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p to nil. > > Hopefully you understand now. I've told you all I know. You seem to have been answering a different question. >> One particular way it's unfortunate, is I actually *would* like a >> generic "show documentation" feature with an existing key >> binding. Shame it doesn't really work for that purpose. > > Try M-x eldoc and global-set-key and tell us what's missing. Already told you. I'm not sure how many different ways I can explain things, if you keep snipping those explanations out.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 21:12:19 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 31 17:12:19 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53920 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCr6B-0005uG-6k for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:12:19 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f48.google.com ([209.85.221.48]:45497) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1kCr69-0005u1-By for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 17:12:17 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f48.google.com with SMTP id h15so7267453wrt.12 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:12:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=B6A1i5hFhz7ES2h89gJMaTPBc3dnTMA+1SIf691IZDQ=; b=KPoeYcmhSy3GkeTJEHo+/sbiCff8IRtkofYKmUiTbhqHv3EDjNMb/GYgXvEfHGbQIj VNxaEpf/JQfVpSb7xk9sj9gNb9TZAUyjlXW9Qb5+3BlkT6SyaSNL0y+fnXaHexio1FE6 P9v6BoXzM+PlL3h+6rcdWywyHROxM+5xetPyyxZNx3eGCW/Ht4cJrOv34ESEXwJzkqJh swFLh9rFvhU6YMCk4wKxYPZ1b0BX7GyU+vJdRafLVjQLXjctK0wmFwE+4a/8eNKnbd2j 28W/3Fss5yJr5uQe2Kq4XB8SH9YNDztKpARGhVJa+HpOk0aAL9jj5naNrLiaGAxT5e3o wSfw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=B6A1i5hFhz7ES2h89gJMaTPBc3dnTMA+1SIf691IZDQ=; b=rToeTOHnqjJmri4Kj05jwS6+0QWThaVuy8ChySWpmgSpMYIaMP2vEvbqDgInf92PSF puAkbVIU+sq9wqNCYrWWsYpT3fdU+CbgMG/yXRavvkZFFsC2pFRavbVyJHR02krbkURd /lrdUEQr/LY2hLUpgF7DIGBSG3Ai4Sbp7PgriheFGosPJ0t++AYxvT6wkr0CIyd3gyjh oAUuz53Rs98DQefx6ssRiUmCQ6dDLUI/b5Blqiu3Lc1q1bpustBQZU4mOC0BDkiUpemL 8ZjgqTsYl1kmmGk5s0lf3xsC85zjqSKKx22leGXx0bTdpQpUg7cIQR0mEU6ZHO0zkj3I 2s6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532C/xHvz5K2X7LNmZsaRQ3wvIhvGpqTvbbVLtXGiclDvBBp0k7v nFxfu2qCEe+beD1TW6DaZpw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRbNo5cAhC/6RPIluOAb5LMnhW1OVz0EEgOEdZsEj0ZueBfAe6hehQFD0oIvHL/2uZch7gjg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6000:110b:: with SMTP id z11mr3385179wrw.426.1598908331510; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (214.221.137.78.rev.vodafone.pt. [78.137.221.214]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 201sm1109369wma.27.2020.08.31.14.12.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 14:12:10 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 22:12:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:48:10 +0300") Message-ID: <87wo1eikpi.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > On 31.08.2020 23:25, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > >>>>> These is definite wisdom in that. >>>> I see only signs of rudimentary intial design which predates >>>> eldoc-...-multiline-p, composition, Flymake... >>> That doesn't mean the initial design didn't get something right. >>> If it didn't, this aspect would have likely changed by now. >> It couldn't change because there weren't the tools for it to change. >> There are now. > > I don't think so. It still uses the echo area. The echo area is not one of the new tools. >>> Having a major mode exhibit a different behavior WRT eldoc strategy is >>> bound to be confusing. E.g., why Elisp and not Python? Why not the >>> rest? >> I think people are used to their major modes working in a certain >> way, >> and changes to that way should come about incrementally. > > Many of us here program in multiple programming languages. > > Having major modes exhibit different behaviors where they don't have > to is jarring. Shall I enumerate variables that are set differently per major-mode? Your argument is very odd: every major mode has different behaviours, including for example the shape and form of the elements of eldoc-documentation-functions. > They don't have multiple documentation sources? One from major mode, > another from Flymake, at least. But you don't know in general the form of each of those, or if there may be more, or other characteristics. >>>>>> - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can s= till >>>>>> get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new >>>>>> `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buf= fer >>>>> >>>>> Is that the only benefit? >>>> No. >>> >>> Any others? >> For example, it can be used to have ElDoc information permanently >> visible in another frame. > > In the default configuration? Yes. > You're proposing to change the default configuration. > > To clarify, I was asking whether this was the only benefit of changing > the strategy if we also set eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p to nil. Hopefully you understand now. I've told you all I know. > One particular way it's unfortunate, is I actually *would* like a > generic "show documentation" feature with an existing key > binding. Shame it doesn't really work for that purpose. Try M-x eldoc and global-set-key and tell us what's missing. I don't know how this relates to the ElDoc buffer or its purported "weirdness". Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 20:48:20 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 31 16:48:19 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53858 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCqix-00036m-KN for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:48:19 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-f51.google.com ([209.85.167.51]:39250) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1kCqiv-00036Y-JD for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:48:18 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-f51.google.com with SMTP id q8so4285781lfb.6 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:48:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fY+E4J4yGrztN0Uwlz1qwEiq5BkHHb9mFnb3T4cINIs=; b=HWzn8dULluDfbJF/Ken6k0vLSZCmj3Mg6asvrclZSyACiHdryRC23IMgyOuoh4WO1+ 20PqL4kY6/f6XSTG0GXz/PtJ0R7dnS6fwYlmDcQEsRslSEOzc3TvgIQB5zXvtrz97tjo xscXivC1+syIVyKryiL/c3jZTz7Lx6pHZfI5wIrslgdr/Bfi+3ZWXCA0k0H4ZYr1I6jZ KOwOXHR7DGvUmTghujekS/cprTj6BEumt6srG+7iOULGYuIMTdc1Dr7CJfCVSP4SlQ4F n11YIQqAepfeCiUzDvrlpkl6cWwuC7jOVZTSzX119MbhEJ2dFipByUSX0iJSNNtawjSp QuVA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fY+E4J4yGrztN0Uwlz1qwEiq5BkHHb9mFnb3T4cINIs=; b=H9VfiGDHA1OH8p0YDifbusS6+zamqZXfp19Kto9ZFkBP5gCJRBKJrE65lDjfz9AGhO xc3Mtw4S4G7soWNlGR+oWo1o1cvw0Q7ivTsJCXL4irbf7Xf+FmxSB4GMAsczAhgeigLh j8biSoqhYM2I4FUSBO0mkCwAfJGlEStElFRhkvKXdfDW9exQH8E06XOFKCSjP6zeML9i tPg4Jg1W8LsAPVbz7rekzMOHiDGHl775AG4q7nOS0y8MP3g6WVJTTZs7Ulv/N6djTB4V GdTE63cmhXs/m6cm1XY9JCz/lYWY8Y1cizgvRgAtALoarwCwYN1QA0ufqjlb4NGWZBxo oeHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531J6L1+3JrnWa4WQqUa2WR7Pm4U4SlkXXn79RxkkniVFoHpWdMe RbkAxw/ZCzQjG/6D9z9zpg8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwgWbTSVqjnGJFxfetkkNsfyRFVOlAZVn1BMVsbdgjizQJo6QTByyT0GgiyXM+YZ78qqI5Kjg== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3189:: with SMTP id i9mr1459618lfe.41.1598906891788; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm1784066lji.106.2020.08.31.13.48.10 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <59d878fc-98e0-26c3-e568-239638f54962@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:48:10 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 31.08.2020 23:25, João Távora wrote: >>>> These is definite wisdom in that. >>> I see only signs of rudimentary intial design which predates >>> eldoc-...-multiline-p, composition, Flymake... >> That doesn't mean the initial design didn't get something right. >> If it didn't, this aspect would have likely changed by now. > > It couldn't change because there weren't the tools for it to change. > There are now. I don't think so. It still uses the echo area. >> Having a major mode exhibit a different behavior WRT eldoc strategy is >> bound to be confusing. E.g., why Elisp and not Python? Why not the >> rest? > > I think people are used to their major modes working in a certain way, > and changes to that way should come about incrementally. Many of us here program in multiple programming languages. Having major modes exhibit different behaviors where they don't have to is jarring. > Other modes > may have ElDoc sources that don't lend themselves to this particular > composition strategy. They don't have multiple documentation sources? One from major mode, another from Flymake, at least. >>>>> - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can still >>>>> get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new >>>>> `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buffer >>>> >>>> Is that the only benefit? >>> No. >> >> Any others? > > For example, it can be used to have ElDoc information permanently > visible in another frame. In the default configuration? You're proposing to change the default configuration. To clarify, I was asking whether this was the only benefit of changing the strategy if we also set eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p to nil. >>>> This command is pretty odd in its design. But if its main purpose was >>>> to show multiple eldoc results together >>> It's similar to `help-buffer`, but also switches to the buffer when >>> called interactively. I don't see anything odd in that, in Emacs terms. >> >> It's odd to use basically the same presentation for the buffer as the >> one for the echo area. > > They don't use the same presentation. Same text contents. > If you want another example in Emacs, here's one: in Flymake (and in > Flycheck) there are diagnostics collected from multiple backends. This > information is presented in a variety of ways: in-source annotations, > tiny mode-line construct, echo area, and a constantly updated separate > buffer listing all the diagnostics in tabular form. The ElDoc buffer is > similar to the latter. I'm not saying the Eldoc buffer command is unnecessary. I'm saying the current implementation and semantics are weird. One particular way it's unfortunate, is I actually *would* like a generic "show documentation" feature with an existing key binding. Shame it doesn't really work for that purpose.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 20:25:50 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 31 16:25:50 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53803 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCqNC-0002XG-DT for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:25:50 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f45.google.com ([209.85.128.45]:33432) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1kCqNB-0002X3-Di for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:25:49 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f45.google.com with SMTP id e11so735339wme.0 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:25:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F4NO07rXBwyAyF2VD1nlQ/J3eznCQr74XRqaS4aI9fU=; b=ht9+CBejI5cSFIKYVpW5reAyQ2VeJpRFHBxyp3Uqq3qzYM9bV1sQl2yu8hgOdNNDVN jrLxEA+coerqtGFNJvPpnQvFbgK2Zywlg1Eg+BuYnBCuwrQQWCkCQNTbsEGEvXV59dAW BdsU/tfwvPmIccGJEcGPDnEMHy9X8Mf09WTVfiOFbfsi0FYY6BrLBLr6hFt5eutFjV8K 4q4kMnoXMA0e1U4eBAvAba0w47U0l+kVYxFV6r6R2L6Z+k/LF/89cAJDmMqDCl8HkR9G tN0NDqPJi0mVh+wFE8NezSej+wDiiSXNb3SqAqwvzgnQh0SMvOEshPoWKjbAdjv7QHYE KqgA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=F4NO07rXBwyAyF2VD1nlQ/J3eznCQr74XRqaS4aI9fU=; b=KF+b+I9jwA8y2OOL42PbUofnCmfbexy2ueEr4UaxI0IyjV4BLES16/WBSMFXNqqy8e zKIbdBlaEKC1BqX9kZO0GYLFzsvOoyFephy/YD9ma2OohGdgvqox75ju5rErY9JsouWp kGouzK5ugOTVWK2ByAdh8wn7Bj6+eQ4WtMOQ4qKbpaMFrTrjGoRB7/KHE/YhTXN5Hw7n Pzgl7QtDA2QHfdlU1qrsmYOPmhM10K7mw9x6ZSsDZ3uK7YhFCxOrk+hcbsAT1ATPd4di zNK3CfLnpJoMUj2t1Kfc5XVk3yF6BahOQh0l16qxE+4cspcKk3gB9Qfdbf8IGw+fsvAQ MKKA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531c3/5l4qcD5e/IIqgT4oxSkmBzIfU8bQbeLw2icA922o+VjTYL 4z/26+PaJR4IuStT6L4oUd0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxpXed/TxaLcwsn4BtAm26i9XRkepwSV8Uv8+PR1hxzssWibdZhep62JSUDhC3vLkf6v160RA== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:7907:: with SMTP id l7mr904563wme.89.1598905543265; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:25:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (214.221.137.78.rev.vodafone.pt. [78.137.221.214]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q8sm13531458wrx.79.2020.08.31.13.25.41 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:25:42 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 21:25:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:03:37 +0300") Message-ID: <873642k1fg.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: >>> These is definite wisdom in that. >> I see only signs of rudimentary intial design which predates >> eldoc-...-multiline-p, composition, Flymake... > That doesn't mean the initial design didn't get something right. > If it didn't, this aspect would have likely changed by now. It couldn't change because there weren't the tools for it to change. There are now. I don't know where your evolutionary argument is headed but it's not very interesting, in my opinion.. >>> Change the default in eldoc.el. Why emacs-lisp-mode? >> See subject line. > > Having a major mode exhibit a different behavior WRT eldoc strategy is > bound to be confusing. E.g., why Elisp and not Python? Why not the > rest? I think people are used to their major modes working in a certain way, and changes to that way should come about incrementally. Other modes may have ElDoc sources that don't lend themselves to this particular composition strategy. >>> One would probably prefer to see the description of the compilation >>> error rather than the function signature, if they had to choose. >> Maybe you would, you can adjust it. I'd rather not change more >> defaults >> than the one suggested in the subject line. > > If it's for emacs-lisp-mode only, it's already not "changing the default". I don't care what you call it. I proposed to change the "Emacs -Q behaviour" of emacs-lisp-mode first. >>>> - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can sti= ll >>>> get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new >>>> `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buffer >>> >>> Is that the only benefit? >> No. > > Any others? For example, it can be used to have ElDoc information permanently visible in another frame. >>> This command is pretty odd in its design. But if its main purpose was >>> to show multiple eldoc results together >> It's similar to `help-buffer`, but also switches to the buffer when >> called interactively. I don't see anything odd in that, in Emacs terms. > > It's odd to use basically the same presentation for the buffer as the > one for the echo area. They don't use the same presentation. I don't understand the rest of your reasoning, sorry. If you want another example in Emacs, here's one: in Flymake (and in Flycheck) there are diagnostics collected from multiple backends. This information is presented in a variety of ways: in-source annotations, tiny mode-line construct, echo area, and a constantly updated separate buffer listing all the diagnostics in tabular form. The ElDoc buffer is similar to the latter. >> This is beyond the scope of this bug, though. > You brought it up. No. You asserted the design is odd, I explained how it's not. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 20:03:49 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 31 16:03:49 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53774 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCq1t-0001x0-6R for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:03:49 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f180.google.com ([209.85.208.180]:46233) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1kCq1p-0001wi-Af for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 16:03:47 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f180.google.com with SMTP id h19so8118210ljg.13 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:03:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gSyaLg0nY/pP8JVqK4Vd7JI+RWS2rvtmB/E9ytCxNvY=; b=W8xOf1DtPhCf9uZqfW6oEJ33H8hjSCYP+5qbK+6w8pVGMxZLwsKQjQosT/03mqIMeK Y6/kp7gU2cBBoUQyjr3tvLH0NjvVmQsoHeUu0Npzn/XtSx6I0aQ8y/AOck+x5K0vxA70 ZmDecwCyGETKaP9dE2xp9WHiW5i7BKrUTHafoFCtTnCXuIFgwKurGpi8avRK600w/Jcg Xp5CMfLFMJtZl0fcSRNIznP6rYR508RQjOq0ftdQAgSzJEg0X6ER8JvlCNstowcoxSVE r3xiEH+4GjdouXBk0zroD/RolC6IloRrYKde4aYdGwo5m//fQgnN2OKsG+u9BlqPwvLG Cj+A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gSyaLg0nY/pP8JVqK4Vd7JI+RWS2rvtmB/E9ytCxNvY=; b=AHHvpHzn06Y4CW2dD92kv9Aztoewx99UxbUTFeFatibdgNIbS2A4rnXrwVTz2T3Zkx fmDH3dQzdprHYB5zCEZsBI1vfpoE0eRdi9od47w+Qhv3umNjihgoJfLmjprIW0uv53iV voHm15qcEVNU3cX4ii1Z9c/UnjICCqvaffLj2+OhOnOWbp02weIen2xVxMK7vklJ2yLi cytUChiF+bNyuJjbyI5XjOMECYymDixdJUMPVCgVVHXnpybnmGWjwCmeD7Ve5NT+sagI WiSmN0YWisGVwDz2ive6HE+Qjz46YVK/FJ/J3805ixG+v7gDrJRr/YCI3NcGKeb0VUm7 sBdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532IFgFAkHGNbmr6nt7ueecFEeOn4lcyJC+1Ccwjt5t2BYUDUSg+ Ob4TbwSqtuueTZKGVdLzT60= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx59IuAVckjZ4AVG9ON547kG+7OqWGiyy0l4v7o32Ry+v+PfTptsdn4BT+8/KNnLUmEMUsuHg== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9a93:: with SMTP id p19mr1316349lji.67.1598904219010; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id d2sm1799496ljo.126.2020.08.31.13.03.37 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 13:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <60560e93-40e8-b7bf-1339-fbd48c792588@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 23:03:37 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -2.9 (--) On 31.08.2020 11:38, João Távora wrote: >> It's true, but the curious reality is that AFAIK the built-in eldoc >> functions (foremost, the Elisp one) have always used the one-line >> display, even when they could show more. >> >> These is definite wisdom in that. > > I see only signs of rudimentary intial design which predates > eldoc-...-multiline-p, composition, Flymake... That doesn't mean the initial design didn't get something right. If it didn't, this aspect would have likely changed by now. >> Change the default in eldoc.el. Why emacs-lisp-mode? > > See subject line. Having a major mode exhibit a different behavior WRT eldoc strategy is bound to be confusing. E.g., why Elisp and not Python? Why not the rest? >> One would probably prefer to see the description of the compilation >> error rather than the function signature, if they had to choose. > > Maybe you would, you can adjust it. I'd rather not change more defaults > than the one suggested in the subject line. If it's for emacs-lisp-mode only, it's already not "changing the default". >>> - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can still >>> get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new >>> `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buffer >> >> Is that the only benefit? > > No. Any others? >> This command is pretty odd in its design. But if its main purpose was >> to show multiple eldoc results together > > It's similar to `help-buffer`, but also switches to the buffer when > called interactively. I don't see anything odd in that, in Emacs terms. It's odd to use basically the same presentation for the buffer as the one for the echo area. The echo area is smaller in size, and has undesirable side-effects when its contents change height. A buffer doesn't have these kind of constraints. And if we were to differentiate the buffer's presentation (for instance, by binding eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p to t inside eldoc-print-current-symbol-info's interactive clause), we might as well use a different strategy for it, too. > The command pops a window to *eldoc ...*, a less restricted view into > the continuously composed results of ElDoc collection, the echo area > being a much more restricted outlet. In the future, there could/should > be an arbitrary number of such outlets: windows, frames, tooltips, some > more restrictive, some less, some more interactive, some less. Some of these have different constraints, too. > This is beyond the scope of this bug, though. You brought it up.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 08:38:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Mon Aug 31 04:38:31 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51518 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCfKh-0003N6-1c for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:38:31 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f47.google.com ([209.85.128.47]:38674) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1kCfKe-0003Mr-QL for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:38:29 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f47.google.com with SMTP id l9so666967wme.3 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 01:38:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=r8F8xjpCRIqIR/ViFuF5UQBhDoaUCVBWO5rGfXL0/Kc=; b=IDoWQr+yK0rjfQqfuyVBIE4iByW8XBq6GLuxLdgsteeNhNHBdwz9w1d0oIKIDT5A6f h0Zz8Xhmv35BzGB6SMmESlnxcEgCgTzP81f13G+ciP9CJhY48UNi084K6lTO9hRGKnBH aKM78Uo7Uuc3YMBTV9XDpvx9r5CzNM2ScY/Ah91lSo1rjXBDKiqiGCPNq6M67oaBfYck SYD2JxZ3gge0PcR0u5hSctzJyjJmZBS1RmCsbfjv+zkaGHR6nRbTfqBzevDWdw/qnIUN 0vQI0JZKu09tURnE11Ew1SzL+uB2QW9u32Tvh0Ijc9iqYFvha32l95X9yB9oMraj0pCI vXMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=r8F8xjpCRIqIR/ViFuF5UQBhDoaUCVBWO5rGfXL0/Kc=; b=XH0o3snaRmH/juG+NRSjiQRBLgJCj9gDZ4CzBNOoZsjtE+z6WEOqi7FxMDa/FJy8X8 e+y+UcV82o06l1Vd4oKiJp5YH9eXoPzThEzvY++HwV4lGW/kpnFKJ+SDcZKfooVzWQtM eyHid6F6TRdCEc5FdGOoCNpl96QlwBkilQs96m3AqRCm07NjoNF1uh4FtaA3FA1bSVTY hWcNpCyMvthsOPZbpT+ib/UQfzTkEn1RWdgWHRJxzUqlRuE5GFdNad3/uxyORuaqyk6L 4WIa3VTMFCKqXKjeJZTYn965dOsT9eLyighVbb+mDdqgqT46dXWGARwvMOY30765slPK 7meQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530GlMB5IAvvoWy6UzKgKB5WQDDDz26+Ht5yfdpQVPJf4MTlFJvY HuCSPW8fSbkKIn1kVFAezhc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJytSNCow485a/yP9IOJdK/Pag2TWdbrNrxlX3wfK31AhAVlJgkbDbn3JXe7y1LatBZkx79+lw== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:56d6:: with SMTP id k205mr366093wmb.88.1598863102878; Mon, 31 Aug 2020 01:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (173.37.158.5.rev.vodafone.pt. [5.158.37.173]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x2sm11806443wrg.73.2020.08.31.01.38.21 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Mon, 31 Aug 2020 01:38:22 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 09:38:19 +0100 In-Reply-To: <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:07:19 +0300") Message-ID: <87sgc3gqh0.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> writes: > On 30.08.2020 18:15, Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora wrote: > It's true, but the curious reality is that AFAIK the built-in eldoc > functions (foremost, the Elisp one) have always used the one-line > display, even when they could show more. > > These is definite wisdom in that. I see only signs of rudimentary intial design which predates eldoc-...-multiline-p, composition, Flymake... > Change the default in eldoc.el. Why emacs-lisp-mode? See subject line. > One would probably prefer to see the description of the compilation > error rather than the function signature, if they had to choose. Maybe you would, you can adjust it. I'd rather not change more defaults than the one suggested in the subject line. >> - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can still >> get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new >> `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buffer > > Is that the only benefit? No. > This command is pretty odd in its design. But if its main purpose was > to show multiple eldoc results together It's similar to `help-buffer`, but also switches to the buffer when called interactively. I don't see anything odd in that, in Emacs terms. The command pops a window to *eldoc ...*, a less restricted view into the continuously composed results of ElDoc collection, the echo area being a much more restricted outlet. In the future, there could/should be an arbitrary number of such outlets: windows, frames, tooltips, some more restrictive, some less, some more interactive, some less. This is beyond the scope of this bug, though. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 01:07:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 30 21:07:28 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51048 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCYIC-0004XI-2E for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:07:28 -0400 Received: from mail-lj1-f176.google.com ([209.85.208.176]:35684) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1kCYIB-0004X6-AW for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 21:07:27 -0400 Received: by mail-lj1-f176.google.com with SMTP id i10so4810449ljn.2 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:07:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lyD75QySdpVjnEOtBAbO8VXYrmeYYdJGVRJicsy4/AA=; b=tB/dWB98GuWfjPXfIRJODIMuVYlHvOQPfQ0pjK/ZpAltMPTPH+kkrfllKHx4dR5wIZ trAvxds18qeicKm5Np9crpQHtKAmJI47xY9WqNp/i1WwBszs3T4hSC05q+Kzvj014Fu9 VK6b4qzRSlhKjzyWHvuX0i1ahrsOlKzL4flPkWn73iwDkEgubHczPrvSX/xi5lBotLzD 65EXHUsU1B2tXcqt+5o3qTh6Qw6kb229sbcW4lS4d7IqnZ83jdcysbFRBeJ/Ri2vz0xV gJAQ04Cs636o/ZR+PaoyEJHCdXjlumPaRIExE6YTpwG+Ee2jpd5FXBOG1EM02ko6iGRe Djvw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lyD75QySdpVjnEOtBAbO8VXYrmeYYdJGVRJicsy4/AA=; b=MR1uc4Nlqcy0atKjXMaKGgL5UZjNjGdxv6I4l63e9QH4ZrQkQ+Ured3X+QayjM39HD F4fsRUDUTl7R3HSNUlKq8ReBVjBoZvKOqTI4WeGV1xgcU6uKH5n1gjyfqtY97Uu2KdiP UAdVe2xnH0xrrrRBDib1Jsc8768cr/qEHFOhpgcBRttkKgZj9y2Az5WwpWaPNM9Vb9mB Fu7XCdu6tdnwdcm1K7+SRLwDWZDeUOHQvBMysaIIW0c8fojH0URzM68eepD32rmLMu0i aZUP/yk9utXtxVByDmJZxWxtbZAfFSCLNLllCTxZ4QWPtsYUicrooqQuvfdtTjmo3kgR Nd0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531iIzgL9AoxX6ZLtjS1hA8pXrQpfoo6pJfmfMxXOUzQvIVaIvt2 kwZ5vtnjcfDzlp4lMWPLwrc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwHl3tJ8dOOrZkClEBSaVGBc7MoTqOJRqyHnWHB0Zje+fHCXPUIcByJa8ofv1df4116Myp9vQ== X-Received: by 2002:a2e:9ac5:: with SMTP id p5mr4355395ljj.253.1598836041224; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id a12sm1578712lfi.83.2020.08.30.18.07.20 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 18:07:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) To: =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <a1eea8fb-f0d9-3eca-42c2-1605dd2e07f2@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 04:07:19 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 30.08.2020 18:15, João Távora wrote: > Its default and original value is `truncate-sym-name-if-fit`, which (but > for one detail) basically amounts to `t` or "yes, do use multiple > lines". So we could It's true, but the curious reality is that AFAIK the built-in eldoc functions (foremost, the Elisp one) have always used the one-line display, even when they could show more. These is definite wisdom in that. > 1. greet these annoyed users with this fact and tell > them to set eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p to nil or 1 > > 2. set it to such a value by default in emacs-lisp-mode Change the default in eldoc.el. Why emacs-lisp-mode? > 3. wait for the aforementioned overhaul to somehow give us better > perspective before doing the work of this bug report (i.e. switch to > eldoc-documentation-compose in emacs-lisp-mode). Or that. > At any rate, as I wrote earlier: > > - the Flymake Eldoc source is last in the list, so it will be the one > edited out if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil. In > practice this would amount to no immediately visible change in > behaviour; One would probably prefer to see the description of the compilation error rather than the function signature, if they had to choose. > - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can still > get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new > `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buffer Is that the only benefit? This command is pretty odd in its design. But if its main purpose was to show multiple eldoc results together, it could always use the 'compose' strategy itself, regardless of the value of eldoc-documentation-strategy.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Aug 2020 00:47:33 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 30 20:47:33 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51014 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCXyv-00043w-EC for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:47:33 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-f42.google.com ([209.85.167.42]:35812) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <raaahh@HIDDEN>) id 1kCXys-00043i-VP for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 20:47:31 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-f42.google.com with SMTP id w11so558567lfn.2 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:47:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KZODWCkVZH4yIX0Z29R9IMPJLIODimlxtlZ6i6bhgUw=; b=N3vwgiXHUntaDbbilBvwABxZzeCoiRoCUGT2EkfAmXIYQx7tnHLUadIchs/MtRc9xc l2DuCHdqMIXn7Qrhc7fBLfn6HGhfZj+FPodoPNeJqZ/2T9urmif+TA/wwrJg29qz7cHG tsYdXL11cCA9NraZUHduOeYwascXLsVqgGj9WZ11l45xVXvK5AF24LbSNZOTzFV1etlA T7p79N7AIizwztr3RpdksP7j6gQacjZh3Uc8rEg5Yp75FFnB6Tp60yBudD5lZ5qIhPzw mgC97pQKuPC5lbQ7a9nbqr6WGGmDO4spZpt32ZE1f3aDqsTdtG1Mk8z7v9VSDNeNXyue vbWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=KZODWCkVZH4yIX0Z29R9IMPJLIODimlxtlZ6i6bhgUw=; b=SFzdLO9nI35paCcbX3oWzNj/Nu3Z0QkOJYCvdjhMAnFkwXI/amQcjkloRGk5iKYwwN BBUxt0RoWkjCSpVW7pfGfQtHjRdJUannXmaJvX8aE80NrMfJrk1bavfRY0Iungb+mhL7 hiEBM3Hg/17ARnB8PbzL9NQ+0oMKI4SvC3VdOsqbij76dPARHp3lgTbMhwbNio3je7e/ rExLR0Jh7LPF8DaEeknFi659P8yokS+7YW6+9xQocAUsPtUsomO60Pdw4PT4cjyYosK7 FeSNX+3WNENzZELIQJocb45bPHQFZhyOzsEKu8qxug38h2dCxV4TwSOxcblFbHsDOYMl VDmQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532kR9YBG19mkaULMUT4kg03NCEbaIS7em6BBwuntsdRJMb8h+QS T8KhPYGZ46sDzPpcRU8aBKQ= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJz+8zTpZybQvglZ5UCSLBJaQ7GB97qc6TrnBql/ZvRZzFO5PNGCJk9Avp4Fu4w23ZbaetWppQ== X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5dc1:: with SMTP id x1mr4327946lfq.217.1598834844887; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.104] ([94.229.108.16]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u6sm1234194ljg.105.2020.08.30.17.47.23 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:47:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, =?UTF-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@HIDDEN> Message-ID: <1c99257e-1d76-d0ef-c6f3-06d5b7e87772@HIDDEN> Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2020 03:47:23 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.10.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 30.08.2020 17:26, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > Expect annoying users due to resizing of mini-window. Exactly.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2020 15:15:31 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 30 11:15:31 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50558 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCP3L-0005V7-DJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:15:31 -0400 Received: from mail-wm1-f53.google.com ([209.85.128.53]:40336) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1kCP3J-0005Uu-G9 for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 11:15:30 -0400 Received: by mail-wm1-f53.google.com with SMTP id v4so2422395wmj.5 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:15:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7rcKUZnxG+dmxJuycrUxWklY3Fzd0O5J2hDpX3oFwUs=; b=fmDTu6DqlJild7+e9F49q/R6CLOOPNUkv5LBvMMrkPVjyuVbYsvGBOVM7dzvCeyN13 zm8rg0kRUXUKdB9rUdBIBp7MUL4Aq4Gqgz0uIvz/3nz8L2nGuwT42pe6eSRwgoA7Smme 0bxJdb0StfU0JmYBMt7/3vLbEO+UcZ6bjvephwfrFBJBhl2JwMW6YfTto36TfdhOSn7/ Ro+sim0YfjK0mGmwy/vkWdTm5YwvYLDTGI3DdxXWESwiDPmDFf86sISw2vdVVqFEeMvo DPWsCqijCjGLtOE61RwuA30S0+fL7d2nUO8fh0lCS6zTbi40XOziZpjpTaGA82PWXqyB qFXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7rcKUZnxG+dmxJuycrUxWklY3Fzd0O5J2hDpX3oFwUs=; b=ShoIX9YmWF70EAQzaXL+BJYcMAo1i8CTeP42E+Wzh1jYvT18dN7T3G+q7DcxXyGDFB 3aFHSnKCMh5sSaMZmVW21+qV4KQCwFkxYb0IckXDsPXRbUHhnsiu17MCviXE+VJJyhZK aiCT1dIMZSVOTCXwsQmTet9KjpvasdVwIvmQLcEjtd7hEFICu9vUdqaetG7FWfrQwjQ6 C34qgnI/vTFXYcAepvOVzex0cPzeRTXJ0CyqbhEUwyTIHxRck913JZCMKWndYFmv91jk kErL4dCXz1rE2md9hqmivMqHn/UTFbr0Ii0WyReycUcwlVXKdPcSJsMc4NZyrDe4jQhl t6JQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532iXcgRND0TmRWnPpSxUgQw0QTIEFZOjwYxjfKWc109TGilW0dF IbrKbpbMUOL4wH/tSt+vRsU= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyRACt8/4duSQg02/01EGlISKoGo0b6izG0cARUDHG/KZ8rV3NxiqSCHNPYOnPmOMEA9D13rQ== X-Received: by 2002:a1c:f30f:: with SMTP id q15mr7240253wmq.60.1598800523520; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:15:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug ([89.180.151.132]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q6sm7546761wma.22.2020.08.30.08.15.22 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 30 Aug 2020 08:15:22 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 16:15:21 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:26:27 +0300") Message-ID: <878sdwi2ra.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: >> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> >> Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN >> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 21:13:31 +0100 >>=20 >> I will agree with you that displaying the transient error >> on those situations is alarmist and not very useful, but it's better >> fixed by adjusting 'flymake-no-changes-timeout' > > If we are okay with a large timeout (like 1 sec at least), then maybe > it's fine. I'm okay with a 1 sec timeout for flymake-no-changes-timeout, though before changing that default I'd first pay attention to the feedback of Flymake+ElDoc users (as you know, Flymake isn't on by default). Personally, as a Flymake user, I'm not very bothered by the alarmist messages. They're very similar to what until very recently happened with the "add a quote" situation (the one that `jit-lock-antiblink-grace` fixed). Other modes (and other editors, IIRC) will visually annotate the transient erroneous state as the user is typing "new code". Though, granted, we shouldn't compare ourselves with those inferior kind. >> Anyway, from your statement, it seems you'd be OK (or at least find less >> problematic) that the two Flymake-unrelated lines: >>=20 >> eldoc-idle-delay: Number of seconds of idle time to wait before prin= ting. >> run-with-idle-timer: (SECS REPEAT FUNCTION &rest ARGS) [SECS is bol= dface] >>=20 >> Being shown when point hovers on the second atom of the form >>=20 >> (run-with-idle-timer eldoc-idle-delay nil ...) >>=20 >> ? > > Expect annoying users due to resizing of mini-window. Yes, and this is why I mentioned eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p in my original message. It is the current way to control this (at least before I propose a overhaul of the ElDoc display system). Its default and original value is `truncate-sym-name-if-fit`, which (but for one detail) basically amounts to `t` or "yes, do use multiple lines". So we could 1. greet these annoyed users with this fact and tell them to set eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p to nil or 1 2. set it to such a value by default in emacs-lisp-mode 3. wait for the aforementioned overhaul to somehow give us better perspective before doing the work of this bug report (i.e. switch to eldoc-documentation-compose in emacs-lisp-mode). At any rate, as I wrote earlier: - the Flymake Eldoc source is last in the list, so it will be the one edited out if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil. In practice this would amount to no immediately visible change in behaviour; - even if eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p is set to nil, users can still get to all the info collecte by ElDoc with the new `eldoc-documentation-compose` strategy by pressing M-x eldoc-doc-buffer Hope this clarifies things, Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Aug 2020 14:26:39 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sun Aug 30 10:26:39 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50467 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kCOI3-0004EO-Ga for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:26:39 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35894) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kCOI1-0004EC-V6 for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:26:38 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:40193) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kCOHv-0006rt-Up; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:26:31 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=2739 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kCOHv-0000m6-55; Sun, 30 Aug 2020 10:26:31 -0400 Date: Sun, 30 Aug 2020 17:26:27 +0300 Message-Id: <83blisxl9o.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28g?= =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 29 Aug 2020 21:13:31 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> <87k0xhi51w.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 21:13:31 +0100 > > I will agree with you that displaying the transient error > on those situations is alarmist and not very useful, but it's better > fixed by adjusting 'flymake-no-changes-timeout' If we are okay with a large timeout (like 1 sec at least), then maybe it's fine. > Anyway, from your statement, it seems you'd be OK (or at least find less > problematic) that the two Flymake-unrelated lines: > > eldoc-idle-delay: Number of seconds of idle time to wait before printing. > run-with-idle-timer: (SECS REPEAT FUNCTION &rest ARGS) [SECS is boldface] > > Being shown when point hovers on the second atom of the form > > (run-with-idle-timer eldoc-idle-delay nil ...) > > ? Expect annoying users due to resizing of mini-window.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
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From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp
mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy)
References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN>
<87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 21:13:31 +0100
In-Reply-To: <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 29 Aug
2020 21:17:03 +0300")
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>> From: Jo=C3=A3o T=C3=A1vora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN
>> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:07:48 +0100
>>=20
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
>>=20
>> > How will the proposed change modify the behavior in the use case with
>> > which you started this message?
>>=20
>> In the use case I started this message with, the user has enabled
>> Flymake. Instead of seeing only the function signature in the echo area
>> -- and being denied the presumed Flymake diagnostic "beneath it" -- this
>> user would now see both items of information in two lines of said echo
>> area.
>
> So the user will see both the function's signature and the Flymake's
> error message because the call's syntax is not yet complete? That
> sounds sub-optimal, doesn't it? why show an error message when the
> user is clearly still typing the code?
For me it's really not clear. What if the user changed the function
signature elsewhere or the compilation the error check is based on might
is looking at a different version of the library that has another
protocol. When point is on those invalid calls, it's quite useful to be
alerted to both the error and the signature. Also note this happens in
any mode that uses Flymake and provide signatures, not just Elisp.
So, situations where the user is typing function calls from scratch do
happen, but they're not necessarily the majority -- it depends on the
editing work. I will agree with you that displaying the transient error
on those situations is alarmist and not very useful, but it's better
fixed by adjusting 'flymake-no-changes-timeout' (or some other heuristic
that makes Flymake less eager) than asserting that the simultaneous
display of both pieces of information isn't useful _in general_. It is.
In fact, I recall bug reports in Eglot that repeateadly state so.
>> A similar reasoning applies to other situations with two competing
>> different sources of context or "at point" documentation. Currently,
>> even without Flymake there are function signatures and variable
>> docstrings, for example.
>
> I'm talking specifically about Flymake, because it reports errors,
> not just any information.
More precisely, it reports "diagnostics", which may be errors, warnings,
notes, or really any annotation about a region in your source.
Anyway, from your statement, it seems you'd be OK (or at least find less
problematic) that the two Flymake-unrelated lines:
eldoc-idle-delay: Number of seconds of idle time to wait before printin=
g.
run-with-idle-timer: (SECS REPEAT FUNCTION &rest ARGS) [SECS is boldfa=
ce]
Being shown when point hovers on the second atom of the form
(run-with-idle-timer eldoc-idle-delay nil ...)
?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2020 18:17:17 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 29 14:17:17 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:49104 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kC5Ph-0002ah-Kt for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:17:17 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:35962) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kC5Pf-0002aU-Vf for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:17:16 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:56685) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kC5Pa-0002ba-B1; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:17:10 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4597 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kC5PZ-0003C1-ND; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 14:17:10 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 21:17:03 +0300 Message-Id: <83tuwlxqow.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28g?= =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:07:48 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:07:48 +0100 > > Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > > > How will the proposed change modify the behavior in the use case with > > which you started this message? > > In the use case I started this message with, the user has enabled > Flymake. Instead of seeing only the function signature in the echo area > -- and being denied the presumed Flymake diagnostic "beneath it" -- this > user would now see both items of information in two lines of said echo > area. So the user will see both the function's signature and the Flymake's error message because the call's syntax is not yet complete? That sounds sub-optimal, doesn't it? why show an error message when the user is clearly still typing the code? > A similar reasoning applies to other situations with two competing > different sources of context or "at point" documentation. Currently, > even without Flymake there are function signatures and variable > docstrings, for example. I'm talking specifically about Flymake, because it reports errors, not just any information.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2020 16:08:01 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 29 12:08:01 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48934 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kC3Ob-0003TF-BZ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:08:01 -0400 Received: from mail-wr1-f53.google.com ([209.85.221.53]:42488) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <joaotavora@HIDDEN>) id 1kC3OX-0003Sz-Ic for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 12:07:59 -0400 Received: by mail-wr1-f53.google.com with SMTP id c18so1923850wrm.9 for <43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 09:07:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yFJ4IyLRydH4fktgeqBUYiVftEwBq905SDX6norOqcw=; b=R4RKjPHOQdlIu2eyxU1d8+NUykxqDEA8liLVGMlQtuqkBV9LIYBPr2HwcH7N6yAZSN MaO38I1kISBnapAyTRP5bOnYBFXAiixO5nZP3EuNYTUcEsgt8DEW9sJ6ovozWBBWk7I2 seybJc0V2uiGbisLgXTdqYw7KLZhQtHXiwyM0fyI6rS9l8ydDo23/fEizcY+nK96JntG cxOkXxRZvlfY2V0LVv2NvYQKqxh/HmwyAqHWWlIln4znM5m22z6WfN4u8eanepo9qCrS iEt3cSimubxaMGKPbd3nXkIvZQdkI1Qw4g2DdKgvEKpx0WJV9SMq2cELixHirCPlpBnv VBLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to :message-id:user-agent:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yFJ4IyLRydH4fktgeqBUYiVftEwBq905SDX6norOqcw=; b=PTZEVA7zIR7fRdMxSQvxbxDGWNRZSPwWdE6etYZgwKDy0c9KbufSRKTBDIy0NJ8nTZ j4V+dzzstQt7zXNwvRDuvx3iji43MDbm6AHEtofI7aHTGhM4kIVd9XE/QZNijE2Wkq/H ps9WmnryoKOCd06VCqj4nerBZNwMvAL8NZjxtY2KTbaGDO7wDR1ZRFslY576ANYN33m5 n3tY6XRvl97UoX90IHgV5LUmU2QUlwNYFzktFIKcm4Sm8/aO+eRoTmJQXRlaSf+e2KpA 7rRjao8aJawCnVYAh6U7wyfNileoeJ1pjfvwI6nWONiUjeHGbWu3Hk9ALH/6O2HJeHia MnQw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530jhS0sLSA1jqeFxNLyby17PcH0TTXX9CE735Vi4L/YDv20Ljra LVVgd2H34bev52Wb5xrTRs0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyJRhlK/x9SFvUDUbOXF/dl9pJiGLUHNVWfaJAyJn16UJ9Hx7fQb63Bt9PeV2ALNRXSrhXvCg== X-Received: by 2002:adf:e98c:: with SMTP id h12mr4029452wrm.3.1598717271818; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 09:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from krug (a83-132-192-71.cpe.netcabo.pt. [83.132.192.71]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h185sm2910670wme.25.2020.08.29.09.07.50 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 29 Aug 2020 09:07:51 -0700 (PDT) From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 17:07:48 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Sat, 29 Aug 2020 18:58:11 +0300") Message-ID: <87r1rpigff.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > How will the proposed change modify the behavior in the use case with > which you started this message? In the use case I started this message with, the user has enabled Flymake. Instead of seeing only the function signature in the echo area -- and being denied the presumed Flymake diagnostic "beneath it" -- this user would now see both items of information in two lines of said echo area. A similar reasoning applies to other situations with two competing different sources of context or "at point" documentation. Currently, even without Flymake there are function signatures and variable docstrings, for example. Jo=C3=A3o
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 43103) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Aug 2020 15:58:27 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sat Aug 29 11:58:27 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:48923 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kC3FL-0003EY-2c for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:58:27 -0400 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:41146) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kC3FJ-0003EM-VT for 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:58:26 -0400 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:54731) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kC3FE-0002A9-1i; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:58:20 -0400 Received: from [176.228.60.248] (port=4018 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kC3FC-0006JP-LQ; Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:58:19 -0400 Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 18:58:11 +0300 Message-Id: <83wo1hxx4c.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28g?= =?utf-8?B?VMOhdm9yYQ==?= on Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:36:51 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#43103: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode (eldoc-documentation-strategy) References: <87h7sla2gc.fsf@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 43103 Cc: 43103 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN> > Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:36:51 +0100 > > I've recently moved `flymake-eldoc-function` from first to the last spot > in the list. If I hadn't done that, the default behaviour when writing > a sexp such as, say: > > (my-dear-function [point here]) > > would be to foremost greet the user with the Flymake error message about > insufficient args being supplied to the `my-dear-function` call about to > be written, rather than what those args are supposed to be. Obviously > this defeats the purpose of having ElDoc serve as a code-writing aid. > > But now take this other situation and suppose there is an error in the > "foo" where point is on: > > (my-dear-function 'fo[point here]o 42 'bar) > > Having the sexp written with a suitable number of arguments but with > some Flymake mistake will now fail to notify us of those mistakes, since > the signature information takes priority. This is similar, if not the > same, as the aforementioned bug#32243. > > Earlier, there was no obvious solution to this, especially if one > insisted on using only a one-line-tall echo area at the maximum. Now, > after Mark Oteiza's introduction of `eldoc-documentation-functions`, > there are ways to configure suitable behaviours. In particular there is > `eldoc-documentation-strategy` (formerly `eldoc-documentation-function`, > singular), which tells how to coordinate ElDoc information from multiple > sources. > > This variable's value defaults to `eldoc-documentation-default` > globally. I suggest we default it to `eldoc-documentation-compose` in > Elisp mode, so the three functions occupying > `eldoc-documentation-functions` can be in play at the same time. This > is because the information conveyed by them can be generally be useful > at the same time. How will the proposed change modify the behavior in the use case with which you started this message?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
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From: =?utf-8?B?Sm/Do28gVMOhdm9yYQ==?= <joaotavora@HIDDEN>
To: bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN, larsi@HIDDEN, monnier@HIDDEN
Subject: 28.0.50; Default ElDoc composition strategy in Elisp mode
(eldoc-documentation-strategy)
Date: Sat, 29 Aug 2020 16:36:51 +0100
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Hello,
As I recently mentioned to Lars over at bug#32243, the recent changes to
ElDoc have made it possible for the user and the major mode to control
the information that is eventually showed to the user in the echo area.
That bug, which concerned Elisp function signatures overriding/hiding
Flymake diagnostic lines, has been fixed, mostly because Flymake itself
is an independent producer of Eldoc information, and one is now given
the tools to coordinate between different sources.
The TL;DR is that this bug is a proposal for changing the default value
of `eldoc-documentation-strategy` to `eldoc-documentation-compose`, in
Elisp mode so that all these sources can serve us simultaneously.
So, in Emacs master, we have reasonably common sources for Elisp mode,
which may all act and be useful at the same time. They occupy this
relative order in 'eldoc-documentation-functions':
- elisp-eldoc-funcall
- elisp-eldoc-var-docstring
- flymake-eldoc-function (only active if Flymake mode is enabled)
I've recently moved `flymake-eldoc-function` from first to the last spot
in the list. If I hadn't done that, the default behaviour when writing
a sexp such as, say:
(my-dear-function [point here])
would be to foremost greet the user with the Flymake error message about
insufficient args being supplied to the `my-dear-function` call about to
be written, rather than what those args are supposed to be. Obviously
this defeats the purpose of having ElDoc serve as a code-writing aid.
But now take this other situation and suppose there is an error in the
"foo" where point is on:
(my-dear-function 'fo[point here]o 42 'bar)
Having the sexp written with a suitable number of arguments but with
some Flymake mistake will now fail to notify us of those mistakes, since
the signature information takes priority. This is similar, if not the
same, as the aforementioned bug#32243.
Earlier, there was no obvious solution to this, especially if one
insisted on using only a one-line-tall echo area at the maximum. Now,
after Mark Oteiza's introduction of `eldoc-documentation-functions`,
there are ways to configure suitable behaviours. In particular there is
`eldoc-documentation-strategy` (formerly `eldoc-documentation-function`,
singular), which tells how to coordinate ElDoc information from multiple
sources.
This variable's value defaults to `eldoc-documentation-default`
globally. I suggest we default it to `eldoc-documentation-compose` in
Elisp mode, so the three functions occupying
`eldoc-documentation-functions` can be in play at the same time. This
is because the information conveyed by them can be generally be useful
at the same time.
If that creates too tall an echo area for some, I want to mention that,
for now, there is the variable `eldoc-echo-area-use-multiline-p` to
control this. For those willing to bear with 2 lines at most, I think
this is guaranteed. For non-users of Flymake, for instance, 2 lines
usually happens if one lands the cursor on documented Elisp variable
being used inside a documented function. With the cursor on the first
argument in this form:
(run-with-idle-timer eldoc-idle-delay nil ...)
The echo area would show two lines instead of the usual 1:
eldoc-idle-delay: Number of seconds of idle time to wait before printin=
g.
run-with-idle-timer: (SECS REPEAT FUNCTION &rest ARGS)
Also note that even if one sets `eldoc-echo-are-use-multiline-p` to nil,
or 1, one can still get the full set of lines by via M-x
eldoc-doc-buffer.
Later on, we will probably want to review and explore other outlets
other than the echo area and this auxiliary buffer for displaying the
information collected and coordinated by our chose
eldoc-documentation-strategy.
But that is matter for another bug report...
Jo=C3=A3o
João Távora <joaotavora@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#43103; Package emacs.
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