GNU bug report logs - #43269
28.0.50; [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native compiled

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Package: emacs; Reported by: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>; dated Tue, 8 Sep 2020 08:04:01 UTC; Maintainer for emacs is bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.

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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50; [feature/native-comp] provide a user
 feedback on Emacs being native compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
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 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfv9gnnfj5.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo13j5i1.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 14:16:24 +0200
In-Reply-To: <xjfpn6uoqpx.fsf@HIDDEN> (Andrea Corallo via's message of "Wed, 
 09 Sep 2020 16:32:58 +0000")
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 Content preview:  Andrea Corallo via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army
 knife of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes: > $ git clean -xfd
 && ./autogen.sh && ./configure --without-x > --with-nativecomp & [...] 
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Cc: 43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, rms@HIDDEN, arthur.miller@HIDDEN,
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Andrea Corallo via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of
text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN> writes:
> $ git clean -xfd && ./autogen.sh && ./configure --without-x
> --with-nativecomp && time make NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 -j16
> [...]
> real    4m19.570s
> user    28m59.958s
> sys     0m48.797s

Just another data point -- on my AMD Ryzen 7 3700X 8-Core Processor,

$ make bootstrap-clean; ./configure; time make NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 -j16

real	1m51.603s
user	11m27.197s
sys	0m38.004s

$ make bootstrap-clean; ./configure --with-nativecomp; time make NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 -j16 

real	3m44.636s
user	27m15.699s
sys	0m53.677s

So it takes about 2x the time to build Emacs on this machine with native
compilation, which isn't so bad.  (And the result is a really snappy and
responsive Emacs. :-))

Of course, the non-native compilation spends a lot of time being
single-threaded, and there's room for improvement there.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

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In-Reply-To: <xjfh7s6obye.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Andrea Corallo on Wed, 09
 Sep 2020 21:51:53 +0000)
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfv9gnnfj5.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo13j5i1.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfpn6uoqpx.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw6kgyd.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rms@HIDDEN,  arthur.miller@HIDDEN,  43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 21:51:53 +0000
> 
> It should be said that, as we have improved compilation speed already by
> about a factor five, we may be able to improve it further.  But this is
> where we stand today.

Needless to say, I think that making this faster is very important.




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bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfv9gnnfj5.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo13j5i1.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfpn6uoqpx.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw6kgyd.fsf@HIDDEN>
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Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 21:51:53 +0000
In-Reply-To: <83sgbqkc32.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 09 Sep
 2020 22:02:41 +0300")
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: rms@HIDDEN,  arthur.miller@HIDDEN,  43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:15:51 +0000
>> 
>> > So what do you have there, an i9 CPU?  In any case, 4 min with -j16 is
>> > quite a lot.
>> 
>> It's Xeon from three yeas ago (8 real cores).  It's 4 mins because our
>> build is not very parallel.
>> 
>> But that said I think what matters it the total CPU time (here ~30min)
>> to be compared against the same for the vanilla build (~12min).  This is
>> about what one would get at -j1.
>
> No, what matters to users is the elapsed time.  And that cannot be
> simply estimated as the total CPU time.

To my knowledge and for my experience with this workload this is a
decent estimation of the conversion factor.

It should be said that, as we have improved compilation speed already by
about a factor five, we may be able to improve it further.  But this is
where we stand today.

> Anyway, thanks for the data (and all your hard work on this).

Welcome, I really enjoy to work on this with you all.

  Andrea




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

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To: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <xjflfhiolyg.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Andrea Corallo on Wed, 09
 Sep 2020 18:15:51 +0000)
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfv9gnnfj5.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo13j5i1.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rms@HIDDEN,  arthur.miller@HIDDEN,  43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:15:51 +0000
> 
> > So what do you have there, an i9 CPU?  In any case, 4 min with -j16 is
> > quite a lot.
> 
> It's Xeon from three yeas ago (8 real cores).  It's 4 mins because our
> build is not very parallel.
> 
> But that said I think what matters it the total CPU time (here ~30min)
> to be compared against the same for the vanilla build (~12min).  This is
> about what one would get at -j1.

No, what matters to users is the elapsed time.  And that cannot be
simply estimated as the total CPU time.

Anyway, thanks for the data (and all your hard work on this).




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfv9gnnfj5.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo13j5i1.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfpn6uoqpx.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw6kgyd.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:15:51 +0000
In-Reply-To: <83tuw6kgyd.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 09 Sep
 2020 20:17:30 +0300")
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: rms@HIDDEN,  arthur.miller@HIDDEN,  43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:32:58 +0000
>> 
>> > Is this with "make" or with "make -jN"? if the latter, what value of N
>> > was used?
>> 
>> $ git clean -xfd && ./autogen.sh && ./configure --without-x
>> --with-nativecomp && time make NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 -j16
>> [...]
>> real    4m19.570s
>> user    28m59.958s
>> sys     0m48.797s
>> $
>> 
>> I guess -j1 may even score slightly less user time.
>
> So what do you have there, an i9 CPU?  In any case, 4 min with -j16 is
> quite a lot.

It's Xeon from three yeas ago (8 real cores).  It's 4 mins because our
build is not very parallel.

But that said I think what matters it the total CPU time (here ~30min)
to be compared against the same for the vanilla build (~12min).  This is
about what one would get at -j1.

This indicates a 2.5x.

> And what does NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 do? what kind of compiler
> optimizations does it imply?

It's just the current way to say not to compile AoT all the Emacs
distribution but only what goes into the dump.  Is going to to be the
default soon as agreed.

  Andrea




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To: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <xjfpn6uoqpx.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Andrea Corallo on Wed, 09
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Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
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References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
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 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
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> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rms@HIDDEN,  arthur.miller@HIDDEN,  43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:32:58 +0000
> 
> > Is this with "make" or with "make -jN"? if the latter, what value of N
> > was used?
> 
> $ git clean -xfd && ./autogen.sh && ./configure --without-x --with-nativecomp  && time make NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 -j16
> [...]
> real    4m19.570s
> user    28m59.958s
> sys     0m48.797s
> $
> 
> I guess -j1 may even score slightly less user time.

So what do you have there, an i9 CPU?  In any case, 4 min with -j16 is
quite a lot.

And what does NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 do? what kind of compiler
optimizations does it imply?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
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Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50; [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback
 on Emacs being native compiled
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> For Guile I have no idea if it was simpler to implement or discuss.
>
> I'm talking from the POV of a Guile user: it is simply seamless.

FWIW, I have been using the native-comp branch for the last few weeks,
and my experience has been mostly seamless.  The only bug I've
personally seen in that time has been fixed (keymaps showing up as
undefined).




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From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfv9gnnfj5.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo13j5i1.fsf@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:32:58 +0000
In-Reply-To: <83wo13j5i1.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 09 Sep
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: rms@HIDDEN,  arthur.miller@HIDDEN,  43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:19:58 +0000
>>
>> the native compiler improved considerably the compilation speed with
>> time.  I just took a measure at today's status native compiling only the
>> dumped image (what is going to be default when native compiling).
>>
>> On my dev machine vanilla Emacs uses 12m tot CPU time for a compilation
>> from a fresh repo. The same native compiling takes 30m tot CPU time so
>> IMO it is not terrible.
>
> Is this with "make" or with "make -jN"? if the latter, what value of N
> was used?

$ git clean -xfd && ./autogen.sh && ./configure --without-x --with-nativecomp  && time make NATIVE_FAST_BOOT=1 -j16
[...]
real    4m19.570s
user    28m59.958s
sys     0m48.797s
$

I guess -j1 may even score slightly less user time.

>> For Guile I have no idea if it was simpler to implement or discuss.
>
> I'm talking from the POV of a Guile user: it is simply seamless.

Well I think from a user prespective now with our native-compiler should
be the same, it does not require any user intervention.

  Andrea




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <xjfv9gnnfj5.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Andrea Corallo on Wed, 09
 Sep 2020 15:19:58 +0000)
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
> Cc: rms@HIDDEN,  arthur.miller@HIDDEN,  43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 15:19:58 +0000
> 
> the native compiler improved considerably the compilation speed with
> time.  I just took a measure at today's status native compiling only the
> dumped image (what is going to be default when native compiling).
> 
> On my dev machine vanilla Emacs uses 12m tot CPU time for a compilation
> from a fresh repo. The same native compiling takes 30m tot CPU time so
> IMO it is not terrible.

Is this with "make" or with "make -jN"? if the latter, what value of N
was used?

> For Guile I have no idea if it was simpler to implement or discuss.

I'm talking from the POV of a Guile user: it is simply seamless.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
In-Reply-To: <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 09 Sep
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References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
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 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
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 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
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 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> <83h7s7kpfr.fsf@HIDDEN>
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/26.3 (gnu/linux)
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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

>> From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>
>> Cc: akrl@HIDDEN, arthur.miller@HIDDEN, 43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 23:45:06 -0400
>> 
>>   > As mentioned on the bug list, I'd prefer if user could defer native
>>   > compilation to some later time, so as to avoid making the Emacs build
>>   > take hours, especially on slow and low-end machines.
>> 
>> I wonder if I would ever see any benefit form the speedup of native
>> compilation.  I hardly ever notice waiting for Emacs to do computation.
>> But I would find a big slowdown in building to be a pain.
>> 
>> Maybe I would prefer to turn off native compilation, pure and simple.
>
> I share some of these feelings, FWIW.  Andrea's work is, of course,
> commendable and the results will be very welcome when they land on
> master, but I'm disappointed by the high price we need to pay for this
> feature, both in complexity (notice the long discussions of where and
> how to store the *.eln files, and how to handle recompilation and
> reloading), and in compilation times.  Having the single-core
> compilation times increase from 10-15 min to several hours is
> ... extreme.  (And before you say no one runs this on a single core: I
> sometimes do, when parallel builds get in the way of debugging some
> problem.)  And we will probably bump into additional issues down the
> road.
>
> (How come it's so easy and seamless in Guile?)
>

Hi Eli,

the native compiler improved considerably the compilation speed with
time.  I just took a measure at today's status native compiling only the
dumped image (what is going to be default when native compiling).

On my dev machine vanilla Emacs uses 12m tot CPU time for a compilation
from a fresh repo. The same native compiling takes 30m tot CPU time so
IMO it is not terrible.

Regarding the complexity I don't know, I guess it took some message to
decide how to have it working but now we are there.  It looks to me way
simpler then deciding Emacs defaults :)

For Guile I have no idea if it was simpler to implement or discuss.  I'm
not a Guile expert so I may be inaccurate but I think they can native
compile with a simple lightening based jitter.  This let me think they
can't save or reuse the compilation output, nor dump it given everything
happens in memory.

Regards

  Andrea




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>
To: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
In-Reply-To: <xjfd02vpf3k.fsf@HIDDEN> (message from Andrea Corallo on Wed, 09
 Sep 2020 07:46:23 +0000)
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
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> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, arthur.miller@HIDDEN,
>         43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 07:46:23 +0000
> 
> > I wonder if I would ever see any benefit form the speedup of native
> > compilation.  I hardly ever notice waiting for Emacs to do computation.
> > But I would find a big slowdown in building to be a pain.
> 
> Hi Richard,
> 
> It is certainly very workflow dependent.  I think too many don't need
> it, for others is the opposite.

I very much doubt that anyone will give up this feature, unless they
have some serious problem with using it (such as that a single Emacs
build needs to run for hours).

> > Maybe I would prefer to turn off native compilation, pure and simple.
> 
> ATM even in the feature branch this is off by default, must be activated
> with a configure switch otherwise just vanilla Emacs is built.

When this lands on master, we almost certainly will make the configure
script probe the system, and turn this feature on if the prerequisites
are detected.  Like we do with most other important features.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: rms@HIDDEN
In-Reply-To: <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> (message from Richard
 Stallman on Tue, 08 Sep 2020 23:45:06 -0400)
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
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 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN> <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN>
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> From: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>
> Cc: akrl@HIDDEN, arthur.miller@HIDDEN, 43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 23:45:06 -0400
> 
>   > As mentioned on the bug list, I'd prefer if user could defer native
>   > compilation to some later time, so as to avoid making the Emacs build
>   > take hours, especially on slow and low-end machines.
> 
> I wonder if I would ever see any benefit form the speedup of native
> compilation.  I hardly ever notice waiting for Emacs to do computation.
> But I would find a big slowdown in building to be a pain.
> 
> Maybe I would prefer to turn off native compilation, pure and simple.

I share some of these feelings, FWIW.  Andrea's work is, of course,
commendable and the results will be very welcome when they land on
master, but I'm disappointed by the high price we need to pay for this
feature, both in complexity (notice the long discussions of where and
how to store the *.eln files, and how to handle recompilation and
reloading), and in compilation times.  Having the single-core
compilation times increase from 10-15 min to several hours is
... extreme.  (And before you say no one runs this on a single core: I
sometimes do, when parallel builds get in the way of debugging some
problem.)  And we will probably bump into additional issues down the
road.

(How come it's so easy and seamless in Guile?)




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

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From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
To: Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
 <xjfblihsqvc.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
 <xjf7dt5sfzt.fsf@HIDDEN> <83wo15msrj.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjfy2llqzcf.fsf@HIDDEN> <83tuw9mmfe.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <xjftuw9qtjy.fsf@HIDDEN> <83sgbtm2d3.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <VI1PR06MB4526C8E3283388EBB1A78AA896290@HIDDEN>
 <062E9DA2-B039-4AAD-802B-7333971F5B73@HIDDEN>
 <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> <83ft7smjcd.fsf@HIDDEN>
 <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN>
Date: Wed, 09 Sep 2020 07:46:23 +0000
In-Reply-To: <E1kFr2g-00054w-QL@HIDDEN> (Richard Stallman's message
 of "Tue, 08 Sep 2020 23:45:06 -0400")
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Richard Stallman <rms@HIDDEN> writes:

> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
>
>   > As mentioned on the bug list, I'd prefer if user could defer native
>   > compilation to some later time, so as to avoid making the Emacs build
>   > take hours, especially on slow and low-end machines.
>
> I wonder if I would ever see any benefit form the speedup of native
> compilation.  I hardly ever notice waiting for Emacs to do computation.
> But I would find a big slowdown in building to be a pain.

Hi Richard,

It is certainly very workflow dependent.  I think too many don't need
it, for others is the opposite.

> Maybe I would prefer to turn off native compilation, pure and simple.

ATM even in the feature branch this is off by default, must be activated
with a configure switch otherwise just vanilla Emacs is built.

Regards

  Andrea





Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at 43269 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#43269: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
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[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > As mentioned on the bug list, I'd prefer if user could defer native
  > compilation to some later time, so as to avoid making the Emacs build
  > take hours, especially on slow and low-end machines.

I wonder if I would ever see any benefit form the speedup of native
compilation.  I hardly ever notice waiting for Emacs to do computation.
But I would find a big slowdown in building to be a pain.

Maybe I would prefer to turn off native compilation, pure and simple.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)






Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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In-Reply-To: <xjfk0x4r8zp.fsf_-_@HIDDEN> (message from Andrea Corallo on Tue, 
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Subject: Re: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
 compiled
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> From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@HIDDEN>, bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN
> Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 08:03:06 +0000
> 
> As suggested opening a new issue to keep on discussing what came-up from
> 
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-09/msg00637.html
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > That's a different issue.  The original question was about the splash
> > screen and specifically about emacs-version.  I see no reason
> > whatsoever to show information about the native compilation there, as
> > it's a minor feature that moreover has no effect at all until some
> > Lisp files are compiled with it.
> 
> For completeness: ATM all code that was byte compiled gets native
> compiled automatically.  For this reason it *has* an effect since Emacs
> starts.

As mentioned on the bug list, I'd prefer if user could defer native
compilation to some later time, so as to avoid making the Emacs build
take hours, especially on slow and low-end machines.

> If it's more or less important than say using Cairo that's very much a
> POV I think, as I believe is classifying it as "minor feature" (reason
> why I'd avoid).

Maybe Cairo is also not important enough, and should be removed.  GTK
(or the toolkit in general) _is_ important, as it has radical effect
on the GUI appearance.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>
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Subject: 28.0.50;
 [feature/native-comp] provide a user feedback on Emacs being native
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References: <VI1PR06MB4526511188299A6D4136193596280@HIDDEN>
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 <VI1PR06MB4526A5E0FC31580F4F8E0D1E96280@HIDDEN>
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Date: Tue, 08 Sep 2020 08:03:06 +0000
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As suggested opening a new issue to keep on discussing what came-up from

https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2020-09/msg00637.html

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes:

[...]

> That's a different issue.  The original question was about the splash
> screen and specifically about emacs-version.  I see no reason
> whatsoever to show information about the native compilation there, as
> it's a minor feature that moreover has no effect at all until some
> Lisp files are compiled with it.

For completeness: ATM all code that was byte compiled gets native
compiled automatically.  For this reason it *has* an effect since Emacs
starts.

It is true that from a user perspective everything is going on
transparently but the side effect of the native compilation is the exact
reason why people are using it (read depending on the workload it can be
noticeably faster).

If it's more or less important than say using Cairo that's very much a
POV I think, as I believe is classifying it as "minor feature" (reason
why I'd avoid).

Thanks

  Andrea




Acknowledgement sent to Andrea Corallo <akrl@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:
bug#43269; Package emacs. Full text available.
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