GNU bug report logs - #44211
26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'

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Package: emacs;

Reported by: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>

Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 14:42:01 UTC

Severity: minor

Tags: notabug, wontfix

Found in version 26.3

Fixed in version 28.1

Done: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>

Bug is archived. No further changes may be made.

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Report forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Sun, 25 Oct 2020 14:42:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Acknowledgement sent to Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org. (Sun, 25 Oct 2020 14:42:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation
 License'
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 07:41:40 -0700 (PDT)
Dunno whether this is actually a bug, but it seems odd.

In this node you find this text:

 Texts.  A copy of the license is included in the section entitled ``GNU
 Free Documentation License''.

Should the `` and '' perhaps be rendered differently - perhaps as curly
double quotes?

In GNU Emacs 26.3 (build 1, x86_64-w64-mingw32)
 of 2019-08-29
Repository revision: 96dd0196c28bc36779584e47fffcca433c9309cd
Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 10.0.18362
Configured using:
 `configure --without-dbus --host=x86_64-w64-mingw32
 --without-compress-install 'CFLAGS=-O2 -static -g3''




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Sun, 25 Oct 2020 18:54:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #8 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>, 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free
 Documentation License'
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 11:53:02 -0700
Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:

> Dunno whether this is actually a bug, but it seems odd.
>
> In this node you find this text:
>
>  Texts.  A copy of the license is included in the section entitled ``GNU
>  Free Documentation License''.
>
> Should the `` and '' perhaps be rendered differently - perhaps as curly
> double quotes?

Agreed, they should probably be marked as the other instances of ``text
quoted like this''.

But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Sun, 25 Oct 2020 19:52:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #11 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams <at> oracle.com
Subject: Re: bug#44211: 26.3;
 Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 21:51:22 +0200
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
> Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 11:53:02 -0700
> 
> But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?

It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Sun, 25 Oct 2020 20:12:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #14 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams <at> oracle.com
Subject: RE: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free
 Documentation License'
Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 13:11:03 -0700 (PDT)
> > But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?
> 
> It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.

OK, not a bug.  Does that mean that this is what
we want users to see, as the final rendering of
this particular text?  If so, I wonder what the
reason for that is.

Here's an occurrence of ``...'' that I think is
understandable, in (emacs) `Inserting Text':

 In addition, in some contexts, if you type a quotation using grave
 accent and apostrophe '`like this'', it is converted to a form 'like
 this' using single quotation marks, even without 'C-x 8' commands.
 Similarly, typing a quotation '``like this''' using double grave accent
 and apostrophe converts it to a form "like this" using double quotation
 marks.  *Note Quotation Marks::.

And this one, in (emacs) `Org Authoring':

     #+begin_quote
     ``This is a quote.''
     #+end_quote

And this, in (emacs) `TeX Editing':

 In TeX, the character '"' is not normally used; instead, quotations
 begin with '``' and end with ''''.  TeX mode therefore binds the '"' key
 to the 'tex-insert-quote' command.  This inserts '``' after whitespace
 or an open brace, '"' after a backslash, and '''' after any other
 character.

 As a special exception, if you type '"' when the text before point is
 either '``' or '''', Emacs replaces that preceding text with a single
 '"' character.  You can therefore type '""' to insert '"', should you
 ever need to do so.  (You can also use 'C-q "' to insert this
 character.)

But I don't understand the reported case, unless
"in a document" means only some particular kind
of source document that will be handled in a way
that transforms ``...'' into something else.








Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 01:08:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #17 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams <at> oracle.com
Subject: Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free
 Documentation License'
Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 19:07:28 -0600
Stefan Kangas <stefankangas <at> gmail.com> writes:

> Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> writes:
>
>> Dunno whether this is actually a bug, but it seems odd.
>>
>> In this node you find this text:
>>
>>  Texts.  A copy of the license is included in the section entitled ``GNU
>>  Free Documentation License''.
>>
>> Should the `` and '' perhaps be rendered differently - perhaps as curly
>> double quotes?
>
> Agreed, they should probably be marked as the other instances of ``text
> quoted like this''.
>
> But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

> It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.

So should we replace this with “ and ” or should we close this as
wontfix?




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 08:05:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #20 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams <at> oracle.com
Subject: Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info (eintr)`GNU Free
 Documentation License'
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 10:03:53 +0200
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
> Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2021 19:07:28 -0600
> Cc: 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, drew.adams <at> oracle.com
> 
> > But the markup seems correct.  Is this a bug in makeinfo perhaps?
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > It is not a bug.  That's what @example does.
> 
> So should we replace this with “ and ” or should we close this as
> wontfix?

This is a legal blurb we have in all our manuals, so the format there
should be identical and coordinated with the FSF.

But wait a minute: I don't think I understand the bug report anymore,
because of 2 reasons:

  . the Texinfo source uses @quotation, not @example, so I'm unsure
    why I mentioned @example in my response, likely a mistake on my
    part;
  . more importantly, the text in the Info file uses “..” quoting

So I now tend to think that Drew was looking at an old version of Info
manuals, which were produced by makeinfo before we started using UTF-8
encoding as the default output encoding of our manuals, and that is
the reason for the original issue.

If I'm right, the bug should be closed as being fixed long ago.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:05:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #23 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Cc: "44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info
 (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:41:55 +0000
>   . more importantly, the text in the Info file uses “..” quoting
> 
> So I now tend to think that Drew was looking at an old version of Info
> manuals, which were produced by makeinfo before we started using UTF-8
> encoding as the default output encoding of our manuals, and that is
> the reason for the original issue.
> 
> If I'm right, the bug should be closed as being fixed long ago.

I just checked, with emacs -Q, in 27.1.

Go to node GNU Free Documentation License.
Scroll to the bottom of the node, or search
for Addendum.

The indented block of text after "just after
the title page" has this as its last sentence:

 A copy of the license is included in the section
 entitled ``GNU Free Documentation License''.

As that block is a quotation, perhaps this is
intended and needed, which is why I said in the
bug report that I don't know whether there's a
bug here.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 16:13:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #26 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org, stefan <at> marxist.se
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info
 (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 18:12:10 +0200
> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
> CC: "44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:41:55 +0000
> 
> I just checked, with emacs -Q, in 27.1.
> 
> Go to node GNU Free Documentation License.
> Scroll to the bottom of the node, or search
> for Addendum.
> 
> The indented block of text after "just after
> the title page" has this as its last sentence:
> 
>  A copy of the license is included in the section
>  entitled ``GNU Free Documentation License''.
> 
> As that block is a quotation, perhaps this is
> intended and needed, which is why I said in the
> bug report that I don't know whether there's a
> bug here.

That's the GNU FDL, we cannot change even a comma there.




Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:19:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #29 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>, Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
Cc: 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info
 (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 13:18:30 -0600
tags 44211 wontfix notabug
close 44211 28.1
thanks

Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
>> CC: "44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>
>> Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 15:41:55 +0000
>>
>> I just checked, with emacs -Q, in 27.1.
>>
>> Go to node GNU Free Documentation License.
>> Scroll to the bottom of the node, or search
>> for Addendum.
>>
>> The indented block of text after "just after
>> the title page" has this as its last sentence:
>>
>>  A copy of the license is included in the section
>>  entitled ``GNU Free Documentation License''.
>>
>> As that block is a quotation, perhaps this is
>> intended and needed, which is why I said in the
>> bug report that I don't know whether there's a
>> bug here.
>
> That's the GNU FDL, we cannot change even a comma there.

OK.  This is hardly worth this much time and energy in any case.

I've added the tags wontfix and notabug, so anyone can pick their
favourite.  I'm consequently closing this bug.




Added tag(s) wontfix and notabug. Request was from Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:19:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

bug marked as fixed in version 28.1, send any further explanations to 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org and Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com> Request was from Stefan Kangas <stefan <at> marxist.se> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:19:02 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Information forwarded to bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org:
bug#44211; Package emacs. (Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:59:01 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

Message #36 received at 44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Drew Adams <drew.adams <at> oracle.com>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: "44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org" <44211 <at> debbugs.gnu.org>,
 "stefan <at> marxist.se" <stefan <at> marxist.se>
Subject: RE: [External] : Re: bug#44211: 26.3; Repeated `` and '' in Info
 (eintr)`GNU Free Documentation License'
Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2021 19:53:41 +0000
> That's the GNU FDL, we cannot change even a comma there.

OK.  I thought that might be the case.
Thanks for confirming and closing.




bug archived. Request was from Debbugs Internal Request <help-debbugs <at> gnu.org> to internal_control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. (Sat, 10 Apr 2021 11:24:05 GMT) Full text and rfc822 format available.

This bug report was last modified 2 years and 353 days ago.

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