Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2021 12:28:43 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 01 07:28:43 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55749 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kvJXv-0002O6-JD for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:28:43 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:33680) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kvJXu-0002Nu-4M for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:28:42 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:52451) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kvJXo-0002b2-Rm; Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:28:36 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:4084 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kvJXo-0005X4-3T; Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:28:36 -0500 Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2021 14:28:16 +0200 Message-Id: <83tus0g7tr.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <020D0443-20C2-4F8B-81FE-F1040469E919@HIDDEN> (message from Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:10:28 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> <83sg7oidp6.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sg7oosmx.fsf@HIDDEN> <97ADE294-0674-4CAC-96B1-DAD947BA3A32@HIDDEN> <87im8ioan4.fsf@HIDDEN> <FF3E4FB4-C370-4A27-B824-FBC91E8327B6@HIDDEN> <9029B6ED-5201-417A-AE37-44A564561BBA@HIDDEN> <87h7o1c4uv.fsf@HIDDEN> <83zh1sg947.fsf@HIDDEN> <020D0443-20C2-4F8B-81FE-F1040469E919@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: larsi@HIDDEN, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN> > Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:10:28 +0100 > Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org > > 1 jan. 2021 kl. 13.00 skrev Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>: > > > What the manual uses is the format makeinfo emits for keys and key > > sequences in the Info format. It is only very loosely related to the > > way we format key sequences in Emacs. > > But it is what users see when they read the manual in Info, so clearly they cannot be surprised or confused by it. The users also see that in Info manuals that have nothing to do with Emacs, so their surprise, if it exists, is misguided, and if they use what's in the manual to request that Emacs behaves the same, those requests are misdirected. Besides, your suggested changes don't produce results that are 100% identical with what's in Info manuals, either, so how would you explain the differences to those users? > When the manual seeks to make an explicit example (with '<' instead of @key), it uses the logical style as well. See the examples used to illustrate the manual entry for the 'kbd' function itself. That's the tiny minority of the examples you show, most of them are unrelated to 'kbd'.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 1 Jan 2021 12:10:35 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Fri Jan 01 07:10:35 2021 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55678 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kvJGM-0001w4-TP for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:10:35 -0500 Received: from mail211c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.10.221]:45652 helo=mail194c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mattiase@HIDDEN>) id 1kvJGK-0001vq-Az for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 01 Jan 2021 07:10:33 -0500 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@HIDDEN DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1609503030; bh=1YcoBY1uzuUy8RKeOhNtvf9Gzt1c11MO9b9DJmttFXQ=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=pGLV815rbZ51W+fKNtw8JM5bOaXeCA7KIWScO0O/8BbyF+6b2D8ozniqbUJzPZkFm /hPToMvVAor/70oIjbMRJpDjkg/k4Z8B4ExHJrAD7ToaM96QXmGtCdk+CmXyJ9HbDY jxQbxjMXha+5j+QM9DAkyKEQG7I+HL7qYst2y6JA= Feedback-ID: mattiase@HIDDEN Received: from [192.168.0.4] (c188-150-171-71.bredband.comhem.se [188.150.171.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail194c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 101CAS0G012461; Fri, 1 Jan 2021 12:10:30 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <83zh1sg947.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 13:10:28 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <020D0443-20C2-4F8B-81FE-F1040469E919@HIDDEN> References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> <83sg7oidp6.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sg7oosmx.fsf@HIDDEN> <97ADE294-0674-4CAC-96B1-DAD947BA3A32@HIDDEN> <87im8ioan4.fsf@HIDDEN> <FF3E4FB4-C370-4A27-B824-FBC91E8327B6@HIDDEN> <9029B6ED-5201-417A-AE37-44A564561BBA@HIDDEN> <87h7o1c4uv.fsf@HIDDEN> <83zh1sg947.fsf@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A742F24.5FEF1136.0016, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=AfXP4EfG c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:117 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=mDV3o1hIAAAA:8 a=bZ12ziim5FMaFyj1UcgA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_FVE-zBwftR9WsbkzFJk:22 X-Origin-Country: SE X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 1 jan. 2021 kl. 13.00 skrev Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>: > What the manual uses is the format makeinfo emits for keys and key > sequences in the Info format. It is only very loosely related to the > way we format key sequences in Emacs. But it is what users see when they read the manual in Info, so clearly = they cannot be surprised or confused by it. When the manual seeks to make an explicit example (with '<' instead of = @key), it uses the logical style as well. See the examples used to = illustrate the manual entry for the 'kbd' function itself.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
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01 Jan 2021 11:46:00 +0100)
Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
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> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 01 Jan 2021 11:46:00 +0100
>
> Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN> writes:
>
> > 31 dec. 2020 kl. 10.59 skrev Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN>:
> >
> >> The manual uses it a bit everywhere, and rightly so.
> >
> > Correction: the manual uses the logical notation almost exclusively.
> > Perhaps the Reddit crowd has been fuming about this for decades, I
> > wouldn't know.
>
> The only instance I could find of "M-<[a-z]" was this from the manual?
>
> (kbd "C-M-<down>") @result{} [C-M-down]
What the manual uses is the format makeinfo emits for keys and key
sequences in the Info format. It is only very loosely related to the
way we format key sequences in Emacs.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
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To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
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Content preview: Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN> writes: > Thank you
for double-checking! But there are more modifiers than Meta, > and there is
also @key{...} which expands to <...>. Oh, right. Well, if the manual displays
these keys as M-<foo> etc, then I withdraw all my objections based on possible
confusion -- this change would make things less confusing. So I'm leaning
towards [...]
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Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd <mattiase@HIDDEN> writes:
> Thank you for double-checking! But there are more modifiers than Meta,
> and there is also @key{...} which expands to <...>.
Oh, right. Well, if the manual displays these keys as M-<foo> etc, then
I withdraw all my objections based on possible confusion -- this change
would make things less confusing. So I'm leaning towards applying the
change and then see whether this breaks anything for anybody.
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2021 12:51:32 +0100
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To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
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Content preview: 1 jan. 2021 kl. 11.46 skrev Lars Ingebrigtsen
<larsi@HIDDEN>:
> The only instance I could find of "M-<[a-z]" was this from the manual?
Thank you for double-checking! But there are more modifiers than Meta, and
there is also @key{...} which expands to <...>. Here are my grep results:
Content analysis details: (1.4 points, 10.0 required)
pts rule name description
---- ---------------------- --------------------------------------------------
0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record
1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail)
0.4 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS
X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
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1 jan. 2021 kl. 11.46 skrev Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>:
> The only instance I could find of "M-<[a-z]" was this from the manual?
Thank you for double-checking! But there are more modifiers than Meta, =
and there is also @key{...} which expands to <...>.
Here are my grep results:
--Apple-Mail=_056F11CF-8F54-42A7-902E-897CF81A1C38
Content-Disposition: attachment;
filename=logical-style-in-manual.log
Content-Type: application/octet-stream;
x-unix-mode=0644;
name="logical-style-in-manual.log"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
-*- mode: grep; default-directory: "~/emacs/doc/" -*-
Grep started at Fri Jan 1 12:47:19
git --no-pager grep -n -e \[CMAHSs\]-\\\(\[CMAHSs\]-\\\)\*\\\(\<.\*\>\\\|\@key\\\) -- \*.texi
emacs/basic.texi:241:@item C-@key{RIGHT}
emacs/basic.texi:242:@itemx M-@key{RIGHT}
emacs/basic.texi:253:@item C-@key{LEFT}
emacs/basic.texi:254:@itemx M-@key{LEFT}
emacs/basic.texi:282:On graphical displays, @kbd{C-@key{HOME}} does the same.
emacs/basic.texi:289:displays, @kbd{C-@key{END}} does the same.
emacs/basic.texi:416:@item M-@key{DEL}
emacs/basic.texi:417:@itemx M-@key{BACKSPACE}
emacs/buffers.texi:441:@item M-@key{DEL}
emacs/buffers.texi:735: @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} will select the first completion in the list, like
emacs/buffers.texi:738:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} can be used a few times to descend in the hierarchy
emacs/buffers.texi:800:bound to @kbd{C-Down-mouse-1} and @kbd{C-@key{F10}}, with its own
emacs/calendar.texi:300:date using @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}, move point to another date, and type @kbd{M-=}
emacs/calendar.texi:316:@itemx S-@key{SPC}
emacs/commands.texi:55:characters, e.g., @kbd{C-@key{F1}} or @kbd{M-@key{LEFT}}.
emacs/commands.texi:73:inputs, including @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}, @kbd{M-@key{SPC}}, @kbd{C-M-d}
emacs/custom.texi:134:field. @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} (@code{widget-backward}) moves back to the
emacs/custom.texi:254:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} or @kbd{@key{ESC} @key{TAB}}. This behaves much
emacs/custom.texi:1833:(global-set-key (kbd "C-<f5>") 'display-line-numbers-mode)
emacs/custom.texi:1834:(global-set-key (kbd "C-<right>") 'forward-sentence)
emacs/custom.texi:2025:@kbd{M-@key{kp-8}}.
emacs/dired.texi:549:@itemx M-@key{DEL}
emacs/dired.texi:554:(@code{dired-unmark-all-files}). If invoked with @kbd{M-@key{DEL}},
emacs/dired.texi:1187:@kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} returns to your previous position in the Dired
emacs/dired.texi:1508:@kbd{C-@key{RET}} (@code{image-dired-thumbnail-display-external}) to
emacs/display.texi:470:windowful, @kbd{S-@key{SPC}} or @key{DEL} to scroll backward, and @kbd{s} to
emacs/files.texi:1910:operations, and @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} which unmarks all the marked files.
emacs/files.texi:2073:When typing a file name in the minibuffer, @kbd{C-@key{TAB}}
emacs/files.texi:2075:name cache. If you repeat @kbd{C-@key{TAB}}, that cycles through the
emacs/files.texi:2077:that the @kbd{C-@key{TAB}} character cannot be typed on most text
emacs/fixit.texi:288:@item M-@key{TAB}
emacs/fixit.texi:395: In Text mode and related modes, @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
emacs/fixit.texi:398:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}; this shows a list of completions. (If your
emacs/fixit.texi:399:window manager intercepts @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}, type @w{@kbd{@key{ESC}
emacs/frames.texi:519:@item M-@key{F10}
emacs/frames.texi:1385:@itemx C-@key{TAB}
emacs/frames.texi:1395:@item S-C-@key{TAB}
emacs/glossary.texi:1116:command, using @kbd{C-g} (or @kbd{C-@key{BREAK}} on MS-DOS). @xref{Quitting}.
emacs/help.texi:429:@kbd{S-@key{SPC}} scrolls backward. A few special commands are also
emacs/help.texi:437:@item S-@key{TAB}
emacs/help.texi:486:forward to the next hyperlink, while @kbd{S-@key{TAB}}
emacs/indent.texi:137:space. You can also type @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} or @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} to
emacs/killing.texi:94:@item M-@key{SPC}
emacs/killing.texi:121:deletes spaces and tab characters before point. @kbd{M-@key{SPC}}
emacs/killing.texi:211:@item M-@key{DEL}
emacs/killing.texi:239:words, with @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} and @kbd{M-d} (@pxref{Words}); balanced
emacs/killing.texi:305:position, if you wish, with @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} (@pxref{Mark Ring}).
emacs/killing.texi:432:with point shown by @point{}. If you type @kbd{M-d M-@key{DEL} M-d
emacs/killing.texi:433:M-@key{DEL}}, killing alternately forward and backward, you end up with
emacs/killing.texi:437:@kbd{M-@key{SPC}} or @kbd{M-q}.)
emacs/killing.texi:442:ring. @kbd{M-f M-f C-u M-@key{DEL}} kills the same text, all going
emacs/killing.texi:577:@kbd{C-@key{SPC}} and moving point; @pxref{Setting Mark}).
emacs/killing.texi:933:rectangle highlighting. Use @kbd{C-@key{RET}} to start a rectangle,
emacs/killing.texi:951:copying of text between buffers. Use @kbd{C-S-@key{SPC}} to toggle the
emacs/kmacro.texi:105:error or you type @kbd{C-g} (or, on MS-DOS, @kbd{C-@key{BREAK}}).
emacs/maintaining.texi:1290:@item S-@key{TAB}
emacs/maintaining.texi:2356:@itemx M-@key{TAB}
emacs/maintaining.texi:2372:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{completion-at-point}) to complete the symbol
emacs/mark.texi:72:@item C-@key{SPC}
emacs/mark.texi:92: The most common way to set the mark is with @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}
emacs/mark.texi:93:(@code{set-mark-command})@footnote{There is no @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}
emacs/mark.texi:94:character in @acronym{ASCII}; usually, typing @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} on a
emacs/mark.texi:98:@kbd{C-@@} as @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}.}. This sets the mark where point is,
emacs/mark.texi:104:@kbd{C-@key{SPC}}, and move point until the desired portion of text is
emacs/mark.texi:116:@kbd{C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}}), and later jump back there (by typing
emacs/mark.texi:117:@kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}}). @xref{Mark Ring}, for details.
emacs/mark.texi:131:similar to @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}}.
emacs/mark.texi:142:typing certain cursor motion commands (such as @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}},
emacs/mark.texi:312:@item C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}
emacs/mark.texi:314:@item C-u C-@key{SPC}
emacs/mark.texi:320: The command @kbd{C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}} is handy when you want to
emacs/mark.texi:324:actually two consecutive invocations of @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}
emacs/mark.texi:325:(@code{set-mark-command}); the first @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} sets the mark,
emacs/mark.texi:326:and the second @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} deactivates it. (When Transient Mark
emacs/mark.texi:327:mode is off, @kbd{C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}} instead activates Transient
emacs/mark.texi:332:prefix argument: @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}}. This moves point to where the
emacs/mark.texi:334:@kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} jumps to a prior position stored in the mark
emacs/mark.texi:340:then immediately after you type @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}}, you can type
emacs/mark.texi:341:@kbd{C-@key{SPC}} instead of @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} to cycle through
emacs/mark.texi:346:current buffer's mark ring. In particular, @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}}
emacs/mark.texi:353:the list is discarded. Repeating @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} cycles through
emacs/mark.texi:377: The command @kbd{C-x C-@key{SPC}} (@code{pop-global-mark}) jumps to
emacs/mark.texi:379:rotates the ring, so that successive uses of @kbd{C-x C-@key{SPC}} take
emacs/mark.texi:434:Setting the mark, with commands like @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} or @kbd{C-x
emacs/mark.texi:454:using @kbd{C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}} or @kbd{C-u C-x C-x}.
emacs/mark.texi:457:@item C-@key{SPC} C-@key{SPC}
emacs/mark.texi:459:Set the mark at point (like plain @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}) and enable
emacs/mark.texi:461:is not really a separate command; you are using the @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}
emacs/mini.texi:108:Alternatively, you can use @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} to kill directory names
emacs/mini.texi:230:can also scroll the help text with @kbd{M-@key{PageUp}} and
emacs/mini.texi:231:@kbd{M-@key{PageDown}} (or, equivalently, @kbd{M-@key{prior}} and
emacs/mini.texi:232:@kbd{M-@key{next}}). This is especially useful with long lists of
emacs/misc.texi:1191:@itemx C-@key{UP}
emacs/misc.texi:1198:@itemx C-@key{DOWN}
emacs/misc.texi:1239:@kbd{C-@key{UP}} works like @kbd{M-p}, and @kbd{C-@key{DOWN}} like
emacs/msdos-xtra.texi:61: Emacs built for MS-DOS recognizes @kbd{C-@key{Break}} as a quit
emacs/msdos-xtra.texi:71:By contrast, @kbd{C-@key{Break}} @emph{is} detected as soon as you
emacs/msdos-xtra.texi:599:Pressing @kbd{C-c} or @kbd{C-@key{Break}} might sometimes help in these
emacs/msdos.texi:592:@cindex @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} vs @kbd{@key{Alt}-@key{TAB}} (MS-Windows)
emacs/msdos.texi:593:@cindex @kbd{@key{Alt}-@key{TAB}} vs @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (MS-Windows)
emacs/msdos.texi:595:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} normally in Emacs; for instance, to complete the
emacs/mule.texi:493:the current alternative with a special color; type @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}
emacs/mule.texi:1933:@kbd{C-@key{RIGHT}}, are sensitive to the base direction of the
emacs/picture-xtra.texi:210:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{picture-tab-search}) for context-based tabbing.
emacs/picture-xtra.texi:215:@kbd{C-u M-@key{TAB}}, this command moves to the next such interesting
emacs/picture-xtra.texi:216:character in the current line. @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} does not change the
emacs/picture-xtra.texi:233:This command sets the tab stops to the positions which @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
emacs/picture-xtra.texi:236:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} is more convenient in the cases where it is sufficient.
emacs/programs.texi:642:@itemx C-M-@key{SPC}
emacs/programs.texi:692:region, type @kbd{C-M-@key{SPC}} (@code{mark-sexp}). This sets the
emacs/programs.texi:697:The alias @kbd{C-M-@@} is equivalent to @kbd{C-M-@key{SPC}}.
emacs/programs.texi:1388: In programming language modes, type @kbd{C-M-i} or @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
emacs/programs.texi:1390:the @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key is usually reserved by the window manager
emacs/programs.texi:1399:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}) invokes the command @code{completion-at-point},
emacs/programs.texi:1413: In Text mode and related modes, @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} completes words
emacs/programs.texi:1741:@item C-c C-@key{DEL}
emacs/programs.texi:1749:@itemx C-c C-@key{Delete}
emacs/rmail.texi:113:@itemx S-@key{SPC}
emacs/rmail.texi:126:(or @kbd{S-@key{SPC}}) do the same as @kbd{C-v} (@code{scroll-up-command})
emacs/rmail.texi:1233:@item S-@key{TAB}
emacs/search.texi:147:@kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} or @kbd{C-x C-x} to return to where you were
emacs/search.texi:150:started the search, both @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} and @kbd{C-x C-x} will
emacs/search.texi:472: Typing @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} in incremental search invokes
emacs/search.texi:476:systems, the @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key sequence is captured by the window
emacs/search.texi:1467:activating the mark; use @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} to move back there.
emacs/text.texi:101:@item M-@key{DEL}
emacs/text.texi:112:cognate to @kbd{C-@@}, which is an alias for @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}.
emacs/text.texi:137:@kbd{M-@key{DEL}}.) @kbd{M-d} takes arguments just like @kbd{M-f}.
emacs/text.texi:141: @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} (@code{backward-kill-word}) kills the word before
emacs/text.texi:146:of @kbd{M-@key{DEL}}.
emacs/text.texi:923: Text mode binds @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to @code{ispell-complete-word}.
emacs/text.texi:927:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to switch windows, you can type @kbd{@key{ESC}
emacs/text.texi:1217:states. Typing @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} (@code{outline-cycle-buffer}) cycles
emacs/text.texi:1393: Typing @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} (@code{org-shifttab}) anywhere in an Org mode
emacs/text.texi:1407:body lines and subtree (if any), by typing @kbd{M-@key{UP}}
emacs/text.texi:1408:(@code{org-metaup}) or @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-metadown}) on the
emacs/text.texi:1410:with @kbd{M-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-metaleft}) and @kbd{M-@key{RIGHT}}
emacs/text.texi:2044:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}, as well as on-the-fly XML
emacs/trouble.texi:23:@itemx C-@key{Break} @r{(MS-DOS only)}
emacs/trouble.texi:60: On MS-DOS, the character @kbd{C-@key{Break}} serves as a quit character
emacs/trouble.texi:64:@kbd{C-@key{Break}} at all times.
emacs/trouble.texi:457: On MS-DOS, you must type @kbd{C-@key{Break}} (twice) to cause
emacs/trouble.texi:593:long time. Type @kbd{C-g} (@kbd{C-@key{Break}} on MS-DOS) and then
lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi:2177:When the mark is set with the @kbd{C-@@} or @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} command,
lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi:4244:with a command such as @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} (@code{set-mark-command}). If
lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi:4250:cursor to a saved mark by typing @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}} one or more
lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi:4915:C-@key{SPC}} twice.
lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi:5918:go back to it with @kbd{C-u C-@key{SPC}}.) Meanwhile, point is
lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi:10377:with @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} (@code{set-mark-command}), moving the cursor to
lispref/customize.texi:586:provides inline completion with @kbd{C-M-i} or @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}.
lispref/customize.texi:661:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}.
lispref/keymaps.texi:95:(kbd "C-M-<down>") @result{} [C-M-down]
lispref/keymaps.texi:243:other input events; thus, @kbd{M-@key{end}} has nothing to do with
lispref/keymaps.texi:1267:for other kinds of input events. Thus, @kbd{M-@key{F1}}, a function
lispref/minibuf.texi:373:@item @kbd{C-@key{TAB}}
lispref/minibuf.texi:1971:the @kbd{C-M-i} or @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} command, bound to
lispref/modes.texi:922:(@pxref{Syntax Class Table}), and binds @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to
lispref/modes.texi:1785:@kbd{C-@key{DEL}}. There are no @var{body} forms---many minor modes
misc/calc.texi:489:front of the list by typing @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} or @kbd{C-@@} there,
misc/calc.texi:1544:A related stack command is @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (hold @key{META} and type
misc/calc.texi:1555: 10 @key{RET} 20 @key{RET} 30 @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} M-@key{TAB}
misc/calc.texi:1678:2 @key{RET} 3 @key{RET} ( M-@key{TAB} M-@key{TAB} )
misc/calc.texi:2842: U U f T M-@key{RET} M-2 n f T -
misc/calc.texi:2857:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} commands to cycle the 116 up around the duplicates.
misc/calc.texi:3111: M-@key{RET} M-2 A * / I C
misc/calc.texi:3139: r 1 r 2 V C s 3 M-@key{RET} M-2 A * / A I S
misc/calc.texi:3330: M-@key{RET} * U @key{TAB} *
misc/calc.texi:3706:(On your system this may be @kbd{C-2}, @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}, or @kbd{NUL}.)
misc/calc.texi:6168:following form: Press @kbd{C-@@} (or @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}) at
misc/calc.texi:6521:Similarly, @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} gives you access to the number in level 3.
misc/calc.texi:6530: M-@key{TAB} 1 + M-@key{TAB} M-@key{TAB}
misc/calc.texi:6568:enough that Calc provides a special key, @kbd{M-@key{DEL}}, to do just that.
misc/calc.texi:6569:@kbd{M-@key{DEL}} is just like @kbd{@key{TAB} @key{DEL}}, except that it doesn't exhibit
misc/calc.texi:7105:Move to one end of the list and press @kbd{C-@@} (or @kbd{C-@key{SPC}} or
misc/calc.texi:8947:it, then move it back: @kbd{C-x ( M-@key{TAB} n M-@key{TAB} M-@key{TAB} C-x )}.
misc/calc.texi:9151: @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} a = Z / Z > Z ' C-x )
misc/calc.texi:9186: @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} a = Z /
misc/calc.texi:9292: @key{TAB} @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} - @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} a = Z / 2 Z ) Z ' C-x )
misc/calc.texi:9319: @key{TAB} @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} - @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} a = Z /
misc/calc.texi:9367: Z ( @key{TAB} @key{RET} 0 s l x @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} ! / s | 1
misc/calc.texi:9414: Z ( @key{TAB} @key{RET} 0 s l x @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} ! / s | 1
misc/calc.texi:9488: M-@key{TAB} M-@key{TAB} @key{TAB} @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} z s * -
misc/calc.texi:9499: Z ] Z ] C-x ) Z K s @key{RET} @key{DEL} 4 @key{RET} 2 z s M-@key{RET} k s
misc/calc.texi:9516: M-@key{TAB} M-@key{TAB} @key{TAB} @key{RET} M-@key{TAB} z s * -
misc/calc.texi:10104:You can finish an algebraic entry with @kbd{M-=} or @kbd{M-@key{RET}} instead
misc/calc.texi:10107:the variable @samp{pi}, but @kbd{' pi M-@key{RET}} pushes 3.1415.)
misc/calc.texi:10276:The @kbd{M-@key{RET}} key (@code{calc-last-args}) is like undo in that
misc/calc.texi:10284:to @kbd{M-@key{RET}}. @xref{Stack and Trail}.
misc/calc.texi:11783:The @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} (@code{calc-pop-above}) command is to @key{DEL} what
misc/calc.texi:11786:Thus @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} by itself removes the second-from-top stack element,
misc/calc.texi:11787:leaving the first, third, fourth, and so on; @kbd{M-3 M-@key{DEL}} deletes
misc/calc.texi:11818:The command @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{calc-roll-up}) is analogous to @key{TAB}
misc/calc.texi:11822:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} creates @samp{10 20 40 50 30},
misc/calc.texi:11823:@kbd{C-u 4 M-@key{TAB}} creates @samp{10 30 40 50 20},
misc/calc.texi:11824:@kbd{C-u - 2 M-@key{TAB}} creates @samp{30 40 50 10 20}, and
misc/calc.texi:11825:@kbd{C-u 0 M-@key{TAB}} creates @samp{50 40 30 20 10}.
misc/calc.texi:11827:A good way to view the operation of @key{TAB} and @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} is in
misc/calc.texi:11831:intervening stack elements toward the top. @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} moves the
misc/calc.texi:11837:stack, and the object in level @mathit{@var{n}+1} to the top. @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
misc/calc.texi:12073:the argument, you can press @kbd{M-@key{RET}} (@code{calc-last-args}).
misc/calc.texi:12076:different than with @kbd{K}: @kbd{2 @key{RET} 3 + M-@key{RET}} leaves
misc/calc.texi:19359:k N M-@key{RET} @key{DEL} 2.8 k N -}, using @kbd{M-@key{RET} @key{DEL}} to
misc/calc.texi:30263:``last arguments'' (@kbd{M-@key{RET}}).
misc/calc.texi:31598:instead of @kbd{M-@key{RET}} (@code{calc-last-args}).
misc/calc.texi:36655:@kbd{M-@key{DEL}}, the meaning of the sign is reversed.)
misc/cc-mode.texi:1580:@item @kbd{C-c C-@key{DEL}}, or @kbd{C-c @key{DEL}} (@code{c-hungry-delete-backwards})@footnote{This command was formerly known as @code{c-hungry-backspace}.}
misc/cc-mode.texi:1589:to both @kbd{C-c C-@key{DEL}} and @kbd{C-c @key{DEL}}, since the more
misc/cc-mode.texi:1590:natural one, @kbd{C-c C-@key{DEL}}, is sometimes difficult to type at
misc/cc-mode.texi:1593:@item @kbd{C-c C-d}, @kbd{C-c C-@key{DELETE}}, or @kbd{C-c @key{DELETE}} (@code{c-hungry-delete-forward})
misc/cc-mode.texi:1601:to both @kbd{C-c C-@key{Delete}} and @kbd{C-c @key{Delete}} for the
misc/cc-mode.texi:1628:@kbd{C-c @key{Delete}} and @kbd{C-c C-@key{Delete}} are bound to
misc/cc-mode.texi:1636:and @ccmode{} extends those bindings to @kbd{C-c C-@key{Backspace}}
misc/cc-mode.texi:1722:@item @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} @tab @code{backward-kill-word} @tab @code{c-backward-kill-subword}
misc/efaq.texi:2447:Set the mark (@kbd{C-@key{SPC}}) at the beginning of the first line you
misc/efaq.texi:3842:(define-key function-key-map [M-@key{TAB}] [?\M-\t])
misc/efaq.texi:3846:defines the @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} key sequence.
misc/efaq.texi:3999:@item @kbd{C-2} or @kbd{C-@key{SPC}}
misc/erc.texi:281:@item M-@key{TAB} (@code{ispell-complete-word})
misc/ert.texi:265:In the ERT results buffer, @kbd{@key{TAB}} and @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} cycle between
misc/eshell.texi:890:So that @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} acts in a predictable manner, etc.
misc/eshell.texi:904:@item After pressing @kbd{M-@key{RET}}, redisplay before running the next command
misc/eshell.texi:1217:@item @kbd{M-@key{RET}} during a long command (using smart display) doesn't work
misc/eww.texi:113: The @kbd{M-@key{RET}} command (@code{eww-open-in-new-buffer}) opens the
misc/forms.texi:356:@item S-@key{TAB}
misc/gnus.texi:2201:@item M-@key{RET}
misc/gnus.texi:2209:(i.e., @kbd{0 M-@key{RET}}), Gnus won't even generate the summary buffer,
misc/gnus.texi:2213:@item M-@key{SPC}
misc/gnus.texi:2220:@item C-M-@key{RET}
misc/gnus.texi:3916:@item M-@key{TAB}
misc/gnus.texi:5630:@item M-@key{RET}
misc/gnus.texi:7451:@itemx M-@key{DOWN}
misc/gnus.texi:7460:@itemx M-@key{UP}
misc/gnus.texi:11831:@item M-@key{RET} (Article)
misc/gnus.texi:12383:@item M-@key{TAB}
misc/gnus.texi:28043:@kbd{M-@key{RET}} is a new Message command for breaking cited text.
misc/idlwave.texi:295:@item @kbd{M-@key{RET}}
misc/idlwave.texi:307:@item @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
misc/idlwave.texi:456:cursor in any line you would like to split and press @kbd{M-@key{RET}}.
misc/idlwave.texi:515:@kbd{M-@key{Tab}}. A long list of plot's keywords appears. Aha,
misc/idlwave.texi:700:(@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}) on any routine or partial routine name you know to
misc/idlwave.texi:705: a=readf@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
misc/idlwave.texi:941:@kbd{M-@key{RET}}, which calls the command @code{idlwave-split-line}.
misc/idlwave.texi:943:indents the new line. The command @kbd{M-@key{RET}} can also be invoked
misc/idlwave.texi:1531:is bound to @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (or simply @kbd{@key{TAB}} in the IDLWAVE
misc/idlwave.texi:1538:what @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} would try to complete when the cursor is on the
misc/idlwave.texi:1566:name at such a location by using a prefix arg: @kbd{C-u M-@key{TAB}}.
misc/idlwave.texi:1568:Giving two prefix arguments (@kbd{C-u C-u M-@key{TAB}}) prompts for a
misc/idlwave.texi:1579:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} repeatedly. Online help (if installed) for each
misc/idlwave.texi:1682:M-@key{TAB}}. IDLWAVE will then prompt you for the class in order to
misc/idlwave.texi:2564:@item @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
misc/idlwave.texi:2947:program, you can use the commands @kbd{C-c C-d C-@key{UP}}
misc/idlwave.texi:2948:(@code{idlwave-shell-stack-up}) and @kbd{C-c C-d C-@key{DOWN}}
misc/idlwave.texi:4063:@item M-@key{TAB} switches among running programs---use @key{ESC}-@key{TAB}
misc/idlwave.texi:4138:@item @strong{@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} doesn't complete words, it switches
misc/idlwave.texi:4141:Your system is trapping @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} and using it for its own
misc/info.texi:163:@kbd{S-@key{SPC}} (press and hold the @key{Shift} key and then press
misc/info.texi:670:stand-alone reader, type @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}---that is, press and hold
misc/info.texi:673:@kbd{S-@key{TAB}} to move to a previous subtopic line (press and hold
misc/info.texi:785: The @key{TAB}, @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} and @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} keys,
misc/info.texi:1247:@key{DEL}, or @kbd{S-@key{SPC}}) keys in a menu visit subnodes of the
misc/message.texi:1438:@item M-@key{RET}
misc/message.texi:1449:If point is before @samp{And} and you press @kbd{M-@key{RET}}, you'll get:
misc/mh-e.texi:454:@kbd{C-@key{SPC}}).
misc/mh-e.texi:1701:@item K S-@key{TAB}
misc/mh-e.texi:2347:@kbd{K S-@key{TAB}} (@code{mh-prev-button}). If the beginning of the
misc/mh-e.texi:3027:message with @kbd{M-<} (@code{mh-first-msg}) and @kbd{M->}
misc/mh-e.texi:4385:@item M-@key{TAB}
misc/mh-e.texi:4401:@item S-@key{TAB}
misc/mh-e.texi:4818:@kbd{S-@key{TAB}} (@code{mh-letter-previous-header-field}) moves
misc/mh-e.texi:4839:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{mh-letter-complete}) will provide alias
misc/mh-e.texi:4841:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} runs @code{mh-letter-complete-function} instead,
misc/mh-e.texi:4843:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{mh-letter-complete}) takes a prefix argument
misc/mh-e.texi:5320:@kbd{C-@key{SPC}}, type in the text to be highlighted, and type @kbd{C-c t
misc/mh-e.texi:5718:@item M-@key{TAB}
misc/mh-e.texi:5806:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{mh-letter-complete}) or @key{SPC}
misc/mh-e.texi:5823:@samp{To:} field and then @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}, then you'd get the list;
misc/mh-e.texi:5824:if you started with @kbd{m} and then entered @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}, then
misc/mh-e.texi:6615:@item S-@key{TAB}
misc/mh-e.texi:6769:(@code{mh-index-next-folder}) and @kbd{S-@key{TAB}}
misc/newsticker.texi:241:@item M-@key{UP}
misc/newsticker.texi:242:@itemx M-@key{DOWN}
misc/newsticker.texi:248:@item M-S-@key{UP}
misc/newsticker.texi:249:@itemx M-S-@key{DOWN}
misc/nxml-mode.texi:129:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}. Note that many window systems and window managers
misc/nxml-mode.texi:130:use @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} themselves (typically for switching between
misc/org.texi:451:* Completion:: @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} guesses completions.
misc/org.texi:725:@kbd{C-@key{SPC}} twice before moving point.
misc/org.texi:899:document structure, @kbd{M-@key{RIGHT}} will be listed to call
misc/org.texi:999:@kbd{S-@key{TAB}} to change the visibility in the buffer.
misc/org.texi:1015:@item @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} (@code{org-global-cycle})
misc/org.texi:1032:When @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} is called with a numeric prefix argument
misc/org.texi:1036:Note that inside tables (see @ref{Tables}), @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} jumps to the
misc/org.texi:1234:@item @kbd{M-@key{RET}} (@code{org-meta-return})
misc/org.texi:1255:@item @kbd{C-@key{RET}} (@code{org-insert-heading-respect-content})
misc/org.texi:1260:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RET}} (@code{org-insert-todo-heading})
misc/org.texi:1267:@item @kbd{C-S-@key{RET}} (@code{org-insert-todo-heading-respect-content})
misc/org.texi:1271:@kbd{C-@key{RET}}, the new headline is inserted after the current
misc/org.texi:1283:@item @kbd{M-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-do-promote})
misc/org.texi:1284:@itemx @kbd{M-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-do-demote})
misc/org.texi:1301:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-promote-subtree})
misc/org.texi:1306:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-demote-subtree})
misc/org.texi:1311:@item @kbd{M-@key{UP}} (@code{org-move-subtree-up})
misc/org.texi:1316:@item @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-move-subtree-down})
misc/org.texi:1617:@item @kbd{M-@key{RET}} (@code{org-insert-heading})
misc/org.texi:1629:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RET}}
misc/org.texi:1633:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}}
misc/org.texi:1634:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}}
misc/org.texi:1643:paragraph jumping commands like @kbd{C-@key{UP}} and
misc/org.texi:1644:@kbd{C-@key{DOWN}} to quite similar effect.
misc/org.texi:1646:@item @kbd{M-@key{UP}}
misc/org.texi:1647:@itemx @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}}
misc/org.texi:1654:@item @kbd{M-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:1655:@itemx @kbd{M-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:1661:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:1662:@itemx @kbd{M-S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:1709:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:1710:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:1756:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}@footnote{Many desktops intercept @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to switch windows.
misc/org.texi:1859:@kbd{@key{TAB}}, @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} or @kbd{@key{RET}}, the field is
misc/org.texi:1905:@item @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} (@code{org-table-previous-field})
misc/org.texi:1933:@item @kbd{M-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-table-move-column-left})
misc/org.texi:1938:@item @kbd{M-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-table-move-column-right})
misc/org.texi:1943:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-table-delete-column})
misc/org.texi:1948:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-table-insert-column})
misc/org.texi:1954:@item @kbd{M-@key{UP}} (@code{org-table-move-row-up})
misc/org.texi:1959:@item @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-table-move-row-down})
misc/org.texi:1964:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{UP}} (@code{org-table-kill-row})
misc/org.texi:1969:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}} (@code{org-table-move-cell-up})
misc/org.texi:1974:@item @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-table-move-cell-down})
misc/org.texi:1979:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-table-move-cell-left})
misc/org.texi:1984:@item @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-table-move-cell-right})
misc/org.texi:1989:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-table-insert-row})
misc/org.texi:2049:@item @kbd{M-@key{RET}} (@code{org-table-wrap-region})
misc/org.texi:2075:@item @kbd{S-@key{RET}} (@code{org-table-copy-down})
misc/org.texi:3011:@item @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{lisp-complete-symbol})
misc/org.texi:3016:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}}, @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}}, @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}, @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:3026:@samp{B3} and you press @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}, it becomes @samp{C3}. This also
misc/org.texi:3029:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{UP}} (@code{org-table-fedit-line-up})
misc/org.texi:3034:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-table-fedit-line-down})
misc/org.texi:3039:@item @kbd{M-@key{UP}} (@code{org-table-fedit-scroll-up})
misc/org.texi:3044:@item @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-table-fedit-scroll-down})
misc/org.texi:3247:@kbd{@key{TAB}} or @kbd{@key{RET}} or @kbd{S-@key{TAB}} in this row.
misc/org.texi:3517:the buffer and press @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}. All headlines in the current
misc/org.texi:4241:@item @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:4274:@item @kbd{S-M-@key{RET}} (@code{org-insert-todo-heading})
misc/org.texi:4334:the state immediately to @samp{VERIFY}. Or you can use @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:4335:and @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} to go forward and backward through the states.
misc/org.texi:4406:@itemx @kbd{C-S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:4407:@itemx @kbd{C-S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:4412:above example, @kbd{C-u C-u C-c C-t} or @kbd{C-S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:4417:@item @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:4418:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:4421:@kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} and @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} walk through @emph{all} keywords
misc/org.texi:4422:from all sub-sequences, so for example @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} would
misc/org.texi:4493:buffer and then use @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to complete it (see @ref{Completion}).
misc/org.texi:4923:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}} (@code{org-priority-up})
misc/org.texi:4924:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-priority-down})
misc/org.texi:5124:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RET}} (@code{org-insert-todo-heading})
misc/org.texi:5148:@kbd{M-S-@key{RET}}. TODO statistics cookies update when changing
misc/org.texi:5245:After a colon, @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} offers completion on tags. There is
misc/org.texi:5736:@item @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{pcomplete})
misc/org.texi:5766:@item @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-property-next-allowed-values})
misc/org.texi:5767:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-property-previous-allowed-value})
misc/org.texi:5959:view---@kbd{S-@key{TAB}} @kbd{S-@key{TAB}}, or simply @kbd{c}
misc/org.texi:6193:@item @kbd{n} or @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-columns-next-allowed-value})
misc/org.texi:6194:@itemx @kbd{p} or @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-columns-previous-allowed-value})
misc/org.texi:6245:@item @kbd{S-M-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-columns-new})
misc/org.texi:6250:@item @kbd{S-M-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-columns-delete})
misc/org.texi:6549:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-timestamp-down-day})
misc/org.texi:6550:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-timestamp-up-day})
misc/org.texi:6558:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}} (@code{org-timestamp-up})
misc/org.texi:6559:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-timestamp-down})
misc/org.texi:6725:@item @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:6727:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:6729:@item @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}}
misc/org.texi:6731:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}}
misc/org.texi:6733:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:6735:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:6793:The @kbd{S-@key{UP}} and @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}} keys can no longer be used
misc/org.texi:6795:beginning of the stamp, @kbd{S-@key{UP}} and @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}} change
misc/org.texi:6796:the stamp by one day, just like @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:6797:@kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}. At the end of the stamp, change the time by one
misc/org.texi:7197:change them with @kbd{S-<cursor>} keys, the update is
misc/org.texi:7200:@item @kbd{C-S-@key{UP}} (@code{org-clock-timestamps-up})
misc/org.texi:7201:@itemx @kbd{C-S-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-clock-timestamps-down})
misc/org.texi:7209:@item @kbd{S-M-@key{UP}} (@code{org-timestamp-up})
misc/org.texi:7210:@itemx @kbd{S-M-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-timestamp-down})
misc/org.texi:7217:duration. For example, if you hit @kbd{S-M-@key{UP}} to increase
misc/org.texi:7292:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:7293:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-clocktable-try-shift})
misc/org.texi:7384:Use @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} or @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} to shift the time
misc/org.texi:7712:column mode, and to use @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} and @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} to
misc/org.texi:7783:@item @kbd{M-@key{RET}} (@code{org-insert-heading})
misc/org.texi:7786:Once the timer list is started, you can also use @kbd{M-@key{RET}} to
misc/org.texi:8002:subtrees with @kbd{C-@key{TAB}}, or by setting the option
misc/org.texi:8050:@item @kbd{C-c C-@key{TAB}} (@code{org-force-cycle-archived})
misc/org.texi:10388:modification of the timestamps of items with @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} and
misc/org.texi:10389:@kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}. When the buffer is the global TODO list,
misc/org.texi:10418:@item @kbd{M-@key{UP}} (@code{org-agenda-drag-line-backward})
misc/org.texi:10427:@item @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-agenda-drag-line-forward})
misc/org.texi:10459:@item @kbd{C-S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-agenda-todo-nextset})
misc/org.texi:10464:@item @kbd{C-S-@key{LEFT}}, @code{org-agenda-todo-previousset}
misc/org.texi:10532:@item @kbd{+} or @kbd{S-@key{UP}} (@code{org-agenda-priority-up})
misc/org.texi:10540:@item @kbd{-} or @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}} (@code{org-agenda-priority-down})
misc/org.texi:10578:@item @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} (@code{org-agenda-do-date-later})
misc/org.texi:10584:it by that many days. For example, @kbd{3 6 5 S-@key{RIGHT}} changes
misc/org.texi:10593:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} (@code{org-agenda-do-date-earlier})
misc/org.texi:11444:and maybe a few letters, and press @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to see possible
misc/org.texi:12211:@kbd{M-@key{TAB}}@footnote{Many desktops intercept @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to switch windows.
misc/org.texi:19399:@item @kbd{M-@key{UP}}
misc/org.texi:19401:@item @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}}
misc/org.texi:19553:* Completion:: @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} guesses completions.
misc/org.texi:19599:@item @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
misc/org.texi:19632:pressing @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} again inserts example settings for this
misc/org.texi:20553:with Org's use of @kbd{S-<cursor>} commands to change timestamps,
misc/org.texi:20555:@kbd{S-<cursor>} commands outside of specific contexts do not do
misc/org.texi:20566:Org key bindings conflict with @kbd{S-<cursor>} keys used by
misc/org.texi:20573:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}} @result{} @kbd{M-p}
misc/org.texi:20574:@tab @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}} @result{} @kbd{M-n}
misc/org.texi:20575:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}} @result{} @kbd{M--}
misc/org.texi:20576:@tab @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}} @result{} @kbd{M-+}
misc/org.texi:20577:@item @kbd{C-S-@key{LEFT}} @result{} @kbd{M-S--}
misc/org.texi:20578:@tab @kbd{C-S-@key{RIGHT}} @result{} @kbd{M-S-+}
misc/org.texi:20624:This package also uses the @kbd{S-<cursor>} keys, so everything
misc/org.texi:20627:mode does not have special functionality on @kbd{S-<cursor>},
misc/org.texi:20682:@kbd{S-<cursor>} for editing timestamp might be better with
misc/org.texi:20690:@item @kbd{S-@key{TAB}}
misc/org.texi:20694:@item @kbd{M-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:20698:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:20702:@item @kbd{M-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:20706:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:20710:@item @kbd{M-@key{UP}}
misc/org.texi:20714:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{UP}}
misc/org.texi:20718:@item @kbd{M-@key{DOWN}}
misc/org.texi:20722:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{DOWN}}
misc/org.texi:20726:@item @kbd{S-@key{RET}}
misc/org.texi:20730:@item @kbd{M-@key{RET}}
misc/org.texi:20734:@item @kbd{M-S-@key{RET}}
misc/org.texi:20738:@item @kbd{S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:20742:@item @kbd{S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/org.texi:20746:@item @kbd{S-@key{UP}}
misc/org.texi:20750:@item @kbd{S-@key{DOWN}}
misc/org.texi:20754:@item @kbd{C-S-@key{LEFT}}
misc/org.texi:20758:@item @kbd{C-S-@key{RIGHT}}
misc/pcl-cvs.texi:740:@item M-@key{DEL}
misc/pcl-cvs.texi:1113:selection with @kbd{M-@key{DEL}} (@code{cvs-mode-unmark-all-files}), position
misc/rcirc.texi:246:Use @kbd{C-c C-@key{SPC}} to switch to these buffers.
misc/rcirc.texi:656:channel or nick name. Use @kbd{C-c C-@key{SPC}} to switch to these
misc/rcirc.texi:672:active channels using @kbd{C-c C-@key{SPC}} no longer works as
misc/rcirc.texi:680:@kbd{C-c C-@key{SPC}} will not switch to low priority channels unless
misc/sem-user.texi:822:behaves like the usual @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} (@code{complete-symbol})
misc/ses.texi:234:@item C-@key{SPC}
misc/ses.texi:297:@item M-@key{TAB}
misc/ses.texi:431:While typing in a lambda, you can use @kbd{M-@key{TAB}} to complete
misc/todo-mode.texi:1420:@itemx S-@key{TAB}
misc/tramp.texi:4735:C-@key{TAB}}.
misc/widget.texi:310:@item @kbd{M-@key{TAB}}
misc/widget.texi:311:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{TAB}}
misc/widget.texi:458:@key{TAB} and @kbd{C-@key{TAB}} are bound to @code{widget-forward} and
misc/woman.texi:633:@itemx @kbd{S-@key{SPC}}
Grep finished with matches found at Fri Jan 1 12:47:20
--Apple-Mail=_056F11CF-8F54-42A7-902E-897CF81A1C38--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
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Content preview: Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN> writes: > 31 dec. 2020
kl. 10.59 skrev Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN>: > >> The manual uses
it a bit everywhere, and rightly so. > > Correction: the manual uses the
logical notation almost exclusively. [...]
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Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd <mattiase@HIDDEN> writes:
> 31 dec. 2020 kl. 10.59 skrev Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd <mattiase@HIDDEN>:
>
>> The manual uses it a bit everywhere, and rightly so.
>
> Correction: the manual uses the logical notation almost exclusively.
> Perhaps the Reddit crowd has been fuming about this for decades, I
> wouldn't know.
The only instance I could find of "M-<[a-z]" was this from the manual?
(kbd "C-M-<down>") @result{} [C-M-down]
--=20
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bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
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Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
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Content preview: 31 dec. 2020 kl. 10.59 skrev Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN>:
> The manual uses it a bit everywhere, and rightly so. Correction: the manual
uses the logical notation almost exclusively. Perhaps the Reddit crowd has
been fuming about this for decades, I wouldn't know.
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31 dec. 2020 kl. 10.59 skrev Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd <mattiase@HIDDEN>:
> The manual uses it a bit everywhere, and rightly so.
Correction: the manual uses the logical notation almost exclusively.
Perhaps the Reddit crowd has been fuming about this for decades, I =
wouldn't know.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2020 09:59:54 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Thu Dec 31 04:59:54 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53509 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kuukM-0002AI-Dd for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 04:59:54 -0500 Received: from mail1435c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.14.35]:36002 helo=mail263c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mattiase@HIDDEN>) id 1kuukK-0002A4-Df for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 04:59:53 -0500 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@HIDDEN DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1609408785; bh=YNlDEMqXnLQn9OtgZtIx0sJTWv+sffoTXez6OTkVPf8=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=qZUDRRFLhP6Fa+ZyniTmRtiNyU7NUSBVnZHTyBAMWs246clvmA7FBgC4EjSeh7HDT C728ZPpCoZjCtYnPm6ypnQwClGm9pgUuA9NwuhY5uKCjt1lfidQmCrWD+Ja2+kfoAY ktwxT9277k5pYNECY159WSCY5/noakJFPSVIXve4= Feedback-ID: mattiase@HIDDEN Received: from [192.168.0.4] (c188-150-171-71.bredband.comhem.se [188.150.171.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail263c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 0BV9xdiX004876; Thu, 31 Dec 2020 09:59:43 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87im8ioan4.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 10:59:39 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <FF3E4FB4-C370-4A27-B824-FBC91E8327B6@HIDDEN> References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> <83sg7oidp6.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sg7oosmx.fsf@HIDDEN> <97ADE294-0674-4CAC-96B1-DAD947BA3A32@HIDDEN> <87im8ioan4.fsf@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A742F27.5FEDA111.0018, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=foiim2wf c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:117 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=OocQHUDgAAAA:8 a=8onWCLtbJCKAG9o9OjMA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=xUZTl98r3Qw_uB5NK3jt:22 X-Origin-Country: SE X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: 31 dec. 2020 kl. 05.35 skrev Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>: > The confusion problem is still present, though -- people will see > different ways of representing keystrokes (in examples on the web, > etc). Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: gnus.org] 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.3 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 31 dec. 2020 kl. 05.35 skrev Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>: > The confusion problem is still present, though -- people will see > different ways of representing keystrokes (in examples on the web, > etc).=20 Let's not make a mole out of a molehill -- it will be all right. After = all, the change is for the better. Surely we must be able to correct past mistakes? Remember that this is not a new notation -- 'kbd' has always accepted = it, and I'm sure that .emacs files the world over contain instances of = it. The manual uses it a bit everywhere, and rightly so. I'm quite sure = that nobody ever got confused by it. Actually it makes sense to let the logical notation be the default, = doesn't it? There's no harm in trying it on master. > What's the specific use case? The NS port renders <backspace> as the backspace symbol (etc), by = convention for that platform. This is done by string replacement and = won't work if the key is <M-backspace> instead of M-<backspace>. Of course we can add messy code to correct for this, but why do that = locally in the NS port for this specific purpose when everyone could = benefit from a clearer notation in the first place?
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
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From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>
To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN>
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Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 05:35:43 +0100
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Content preview: Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN> writes: > Let me give
you a hand then! The latest patch puts the change under > control of a variable,
defaulting to off. This should take care of > your concerns for compatibility
problems, as well as the po [...]
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Mattias Engdeg=C3=A5rd <mattiase@HIDDEN> writes:
> Let me give you a hand then! The latest patch puts the change under
> control of a variable, defaulting to off. This should take care of
> your concerns for compatibility problems, as well as the possibility
> of confusion (which I think is minuscule).
The confusion problem is still present, though -- people will see
different ways of representing keystrokes (in examples on the web,
etc).=20
> The variable can be set permanently by users who prefer the new key
> binding style. It can also be bound temporarily for specific uses. It
> was a specific use I had in mind, but there is no reason to withhold
> an improvement from users in general.
What's the specific use case?
> Thanks for your careful reasoning. We can all agree that if we
> included pleasing everybody on Reddit in our design criteria, no
> progress would ever be made.
I wasn't worried about pleasing anybody -- I just want to avoid
unnecessary confusion.=20
--=20
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2020 09:52:45 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Wed Dec 30 04:52:45 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40963 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kuY9t-0002Z9-8E for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2020 04:52:45 -0500 Received: from mail228c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.10.238]:52596 helo=mail36c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mattiase@HIDDEN>) id 1kuY9r-0002Yz-J9 for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2020 04:52:44 -0500 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@HIDDEN DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1609321961; bh=b2V1Y/W8H3EH2sRjxprf/AY+nwLBQ7x1wfv5Pqe3klI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=bZZyHl8ljabfY1LakZHclXkigef75oavB584SuN5o0kr7/rT+fNWBjWYLrcyU6+EG UOxTrQ7ZT/st5mM5v1GD6k0IcJ1VXnk4wyoLBR3Rg9UGXVMq3Vz1DoGdCOaOaeF8hy UZWSyyy6U4NafEP9RfpkfO+V4wnCXOr1ijmvwyac= Feedback-ID: mattiase@HIDDEN Received: from [192.168.0.4] (c188-150-171-71.bredband.comhem.se [188.150.171.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail36c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 0BU9qcXk029497; Wed, 30 Dec 2020 09:52:40 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <87sg7oosmx.fsf@HIDDEN> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:52:37 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <97ADE294-0674-4CAC-96B1-DAD947BA3A32@HIDDEN> References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> <83sg7oidp6.fsf@HIDDEN> <87sg7oosmx.fsf@HIDDEN> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A742F1C.5FEC4DE9.001A, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=OrUxNB3t c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:117 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=OocQHUDgAAAA:8 a=LWs9icv0OvD3yNjefS4A:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=xUZTl98r3Qw_uB5NK3jt:22 X-Origin-Country: SE X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: 30 dec. 2020 kl. 04.54 skrev Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>: > On the third hand, we could try this out on master for a while and see > whether anything breaks -- my guess would be that nothing will break. > > On the fourth hand, I can see people asking "what's [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 0.3 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 30 dec. 2020 kl. 04.54 skrev Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN>: > On the third hand, we could try this out on master for a while and see > whether anything breaks -- my guess would be that nothing will break. >=20 > On the fourth hand, I can see people asking "what's the difference > between C-<return> and <C-return>?" on Reddit for decades to come, so = it > might just confuse people and waste their time. So... I'm leaning > towards not changing this. >=20 > I'm running out of hands here. Let me give you a hand then! The latest patch puts the change under = control of a variable, defaulting to off. This should take care of your = concerns for compatibility problems, as well as the possibility of = confusion (which I think is minuscule). The variable can be set permanently by users who prefer the new key = binding style. It can also be bound temporarily for specific uses. It = was a specific use I had in mind, but there is no reason to withhold an = improvement from users in general. Thanks for your careful reasoning. We can all agree that if we included = pleasing everybody on Reddit in our design criteria, no progress would = ever be made.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Dec 2020 03:55:00 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 29 22:55:00 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40676 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kuSZf-0004SA-W1 for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 22:55:00 -0500 Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([95.216.78.240]:32844) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1kuSZe-0004Rs-GU for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 22:54:58 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnus.org; s=20200322; h=Content-Type:MIME-Version:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Date: References:Subject:Cc:To:From:Sender:Reply-To:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From:Resent-Sender: Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help:List-Unsubscribe: List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=kQqzFhieE8CUvhqaXsJKKSWO7i0KkodK9U8pggQqw6I=; b=i1Moop4C+8iB/faKjwuw/Qougn 6T53OjM8zcK/W698TYaE/SqaVj42Tnjrlc7bSY0QVovQSlV3cVAdp5RpzuAagCjf4sBXtni9nf0CY ZKgevMbtnBGSoz3oPMcV5onKTJ9m5WEV3WxLCM9/44pfpRvrRMQ3s46wQiFTUzgxEoyQ=; Received: from cm-84.212.202.86.getinternet.no ([84.212.202.86] helo=xo) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.3:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <larsi@HIDDEN>) id 1kuSZT-0001is-D1; Wed, 30 Dec 2020 04:54:52 +0100 From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@HIDDEN> To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> <83sg7oidp6.fsf@HIDDEN> X-Now-Playing: Simon & Garfunkel's _The Concert In Central Park_: "American Tune" Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 04:54:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <83sg7oidp6.fsf@HIDDEN> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Tue, 29 Dec 2020 22:01:41 +0200") Message-ID: <87sg7oosmx.fsf@HIDDEN> User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/28.0.50 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "quimby.gnus.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see @@CONTACT_ADDRESS@@ for details. Content preview: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > IMO, making this kind of changes is just asking for trouble: the gains > are null and void (I don't see why we should care about consistency > here), while the potential for breaking something out t [...] Content analysis details: (-2.9 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -1.0 ALL_TRUSTED Passed through trusted hosts only via SMTP -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> writes: > IMO, making this kind of changes is just asking for trouble: the gains > are null and void (I don't see why we should care about consistency > here), while the potential for breaking something out there is very > real. I think Mattias' proposed change makes for better readability, so the gains aren't null... on the other hand, they aren't huge, and I share Eli's worry about breaking something. On the third hand, we could try this out on master for a while and see whether anything breaks -- my guess would be that nothing will break. On the fourth hand, I can see people asking "what's the difference between C-<return> and <C-return>?" on Reddit for decades to come, so it might just confuse people and waste their time. So... I'm leaning towards not changing this. I'm running out of hands here. -- (domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.) bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
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Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
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29 dec. 2020 kl. 21.01 skrev Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN>:
> IMO, making this kind of changes is just asking for trouble: the gains
> are null and void (I don't see why we should care about consistency
> here), while the potential for breaking something out there is very
> real.
The gains are not null and void (or the change would not have been =
proposed).
There is no evidence for it being likely to break anything, but we can =
make the reform optional and turned off by default. That way, code for =
which it is desirable and safe could bind a dynamic variable during the =
pretty-printing.
Updated patch attached.
--Apple-Mail=_93843DBC-E6B9-4260-88E3-E6A5A48FA7E9
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--Apple-Mail=_93843DBC-E6B9-4260-88E3-E6A5A48FA7E9--
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2020 20:14:48 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 29 15:14:48 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40283 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kuLOK-0001On-2H for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:14:48 -0500 Received: from userp2130.oracle.com ([156.151.31.86]:41308) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1kuLOG-0001OY-Oo for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:14:47 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (userp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BTK9V1k093130; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 20:14:36 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=m81JtPr8ptOj7YbI2bp+kb3PNNmC+DK3MeJH2M48gcM=; b=LuXoZ7MQUORySr5TO0AcuYhcWBATsDj/vh/+vD/pgUNNTnu08UAvY96otXjk9l8i/994 1ItDyVGeTiy5gHb52UDCWkF5D0er89+d5/unY3akvGk4IV24/tNR9a90CxNDUqy4jbjn Ttdt52RxS+2651BLlrUc3T1zxt4JPoiTwkyRHeO+7O7rLMqtdNmCr8GWkNVK9CCJy5a8 CNX1T4zTPIR6qyrT87f2DPnyKHIBlh41flEIPeXzV/3dWMi/amIuK/EOrUFm6yub0M42 pwKWn5RhzEvFiGvBAoPJ427x92++aHQWz8rhixFM0R2LHXFU8XbdnMBkSgv1VEyNZyD4 WQ== Received: from userp3030.oracle.com (userp3030.oracle.com [156.151.31.80]) by userp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35nvkqq7dv-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Dec 2020 20:14:36 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (userp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by userp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BTKAwvi161458; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 20:14:36 GMT Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35pf3x29ax-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 29 Dec 2020 20:14:36 +0000 Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0BTKEYjT008202; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 20:14:34 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <e78d3730-3c83-48d1-a55b-0fded53ac02b@default> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:14:33 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: =?iso-8859-1?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWflcmQ=?= <mattiase@HIDDEN> Subject: RE: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> <188d3006-24cf-4597-8c30-1009c62b269f@default> <BE81FBF6-55D4-4D31-91D0-03D85E4BB67E@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <BE81FBF6-55D4-4D31-91D0-03D85E4BB67E@HIDDEN> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5095.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9849 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012290123 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9849 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 adultscore=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 impostorscore=0 suspectscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012290123 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > Thank you. This proposal is not nearly as radical (or opinionated) but ai= ms > to bring back logic and consistency to the notation. > In particular, it carefully preserves round-trip compatibility with `kbd` > (which remains unchanged). `kbd' remains unchanged with `naked.el' as well. The library just provides function `naked' as an addition - an alternative to `kbd'. And `naked.el' nevertheless lets you use angle brackets, even with its own functions, whenever you still might want to for some reason. It does that with an optional arg. And even without providing the optional arg, `naked' accepts angle-bracketed key descriptions on input, e.g. (naked "M-<foobar>") returns the same thing as (naked "M-foobar"): [M-foobar]. Prior to Emacs 21, Emacs itself never bothered with angle brackets - no need. But someone around the turn of the century got the idea that Emacs could not do without them. Now they're apparently believed to be indispensable, because their use is enforced. > It is good that you posted the links, because it indicates that more peop= le > have desired something similar, and the existence of such attempts gives = some > reassurance that the presented more timid patch would not cause any probl= ems. I've desired it because I lived it prior to Emacs 21, and I find it MUCH clearer.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2020 20:01:59 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 29 15:01:59 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40260 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kuLBu-00014I-PI for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:01:58 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58894) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kuLBr-000141-77 for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:01:57 -0500 Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:37959) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kuLBl-0002le-IL; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:01:49 -0500 Received: from 84.94.185.95.cable.012.net.il ([84.94.185.95]:1793 helo=home-c4e4a596f7) by fencepost.gnu.org with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from <eliz@HIDDEN>) id 1kuLBj-0000ir-KC; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:01:48 -0500 Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 22:01:41 +0200 Message-Id: <83sg7oidp6.fsf@HIDDEN> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@HIDDEN> To: Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> (message from Mattias =?utf-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= on Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:21:03 +0100) Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > From: Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN> > Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:21:03 +0100 > > It is a bit inconsistent that keys are described as C-x and <return> but <C-return>. It would be more logical to write C-<return>. The key parser will happily accept either, but descriptions without modifiers in <> brackets are more legible, and the result is easier to understand and explain. > > Attached is a patch which adapts the code that pretty-prints keys. This is a change for human consumption only; it seems unlikely to affect compatibility. With the patch, <C-M-backspace> is now printed as C-M-<backspace>. IMO, making this kind of changes is just asking for trouble: the gains are null and void (I don't see why we should care about consistency here), while the potential for breaking something out there is very real.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2020 19:50:28 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 29 14:50:27 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40251 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kuL0l-0000lq-MJ for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:50:27 -0500 Received: from mail1479c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.14.79]:49084 helo=mail118c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <mattiase@HIDDEN>) id 1kuL0i-0000lY-Tp for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:50:26 -0500 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@HIDDEN DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1609271418; bh=8TSyNuBm7VNx+jAOpiXzSWH4WPy9V5egq1UVIJEbElI=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=AuFhcTXmX8efMBZSzAcF+32H0+Spv2F1IPrunpx2XtjDpRyioQwyZe+KuO3ad/tp1 W+6Mbgt66d1Rkv81imvfGDJcNskpbTnOqdJuPf0WK3u73n+4PqQu+7oyyaJt43AcJn bHR8spK/PvPtx7pgAAZ1lSiGChsx+ISmKIYUkMY8= Feedback-ID: mattiase@HIDDEN Received: from [192.168.0.4] (c188-150-171-71.bredband.comhem.se [188.150.171.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail118c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 0BTJoGOl002254; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 19:50:17 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.17\)) Subject: Re: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers From: =?utf-8?Q?Mattias_Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= <mattiase@HIDDEN> X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <188d3006-24cf-4597-8c30-1009c62b269f@default> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 20:50:15 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <BE81FBF6-55D4-4D31-91D0-03D85E4BB67E@HIDDEN> References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> <188d3006-24cf-4597-8c30-1009c62b269f@default> To: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.17) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A742F2A.5FEB887A.0025, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Rules: X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=HYRqsRM8 c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:117 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=M51BFTxLslgA:10 a=yPCof4ZbAAAA:8 a=xY1_shhyAAAA:8 a=CwL6C7edubGEwW9EF0sA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=XdPpjfHQEUkA:10 a=_qGpZPc723ggZ2AwnKam:22 X-Origin-Country: SE X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "debbugs.gnu.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: 29 dec. 2020 kl. 19.31 skrev Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>: > Related: > > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/NaKeD > > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/naked.el Thank you. This proposal is not nearly as radical (or opinionated) but aims to bring back logic and consistency to the notation. In particular, it carefully preserves round-trip compatibility with `kb [...] Content analysis details: (1.3 points, 10.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 1.0 SPF_SOFTFAIL SPF: sender does not match SPF record (softfail) 0.0 SPF_HELO_NONE SPF: HELO does not publish an SPF Record 0.3 KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS Relay HELO differs from its IP's reverse DNS X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 Cc: 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) 29 dec. 2020 kl. 19.31 skrev Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN>: > Related: >=20 > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/NaKeD >=20 > https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/naked.el Thank you. This proposal is not nearly as radical (or opinionated) but = aims to bring back logic and consistency to the notation. In particular, it carefully preserves round-trip compatibility with = `kbd` (which remains unchanged). It is good that you posted the links, because it indicates that more = people have desired something similar, and the existence of such = attempts gives some reassurance that the presented more timid patch = would not cause any problems.
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.Received: (at 45536) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Dec 2020 18:33:56 +0000 From debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Tue Dec 29 13:33:56 2020 Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40152 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org>) id 1kuJoh-0005F4-NM for submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:33:55 -0500 Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:52552) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from <drew.adams@HIDDEN>) id 1kuJog-0005Er-9Y for 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:33:55 -0500 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BTIV0si101022; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 18:33:47 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=HrQWdnWLBpYJDBXoAkodurqSI/RaJC1rZjfbLLajqVI=; b=o04ZIDeoTHriA6W+DbqadtgGiR5jagn5apLllnj2Fi0eLbO92++ggQd9CIt8FuPvHBTg z1aLP6MHbS8lC9pg0BfzzNFoMlT6LeGkRWmPV12UlE5JkFdMjKKDpl2fKaqW1yGqfRpi f0tQkooDZN4BcuV0C0rIj3qYlvnh/2eou4Y+E/j/7Y5mps9BJCZUjasX+uEo4T5hiTjJ 6z0ofyCVPY8rKLB17Fc6LXLPYkuJo0LKo+WRTMUwIOZxz6aVb+ksHabK6G9CcLmL6Tcx ioKI3EAai4mkJIeP5q9YegKXxEADPBfq6RydncVr7+S7v8KpqulDSLLzxB5hZ+cLITca 0g== Received: from aserp3020.oracle.com (aserp3020.oracle.com [141.146.126.70]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35ntpaq429-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 29 Dec 2020 18:33:47 +0000 Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3020.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3020.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 0BTIQNGV023975; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 18:31:47 GMT Received: from aserv0121.oracle.com (aserv0121.oracle.com [141.146.126.235]) by aserp3020.oracle.com with ESMTP id 35pf2xafvd-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 29 Dec 2020 18:31:47 +0000 Received: from abhmp0016.oracle.com (abhmp0016.oracle.com [141.146.116.22]) by aserv0121.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.13.8) with ESMTP id 0BTIVkET010688; Tue, 29 Dec 2020 18:31:46 GMT MIME-Version: 1.0 Message-ID: <188d3006-24cf-4597-8c30-1009c62b269f@default> Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 10:31:45 -0800 (PST) From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@HIDDEN> To: =?iso-8859-1?B?TWF0dGlhcyBFbmdkZWflcmQ=?= <mattiase@HIDDEN>, 45536 <at> debbugs.gnu.org Subject: RE: bug#45536: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers References: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> In-Reply-To: <ED8E3FF1-4DFE-47FE-860E-36A8F939A4EE@HIDDEN> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.5095.0 (x86)] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9849 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 phishscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012290117 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6000 definitions=9849 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1011 phishscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 bulkscore=0 impostorscore=0 priorityscore=1501 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2012290117 X-Spam-Score: -2.3 (--) X-Debbugs-Envelope-To: 45536 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list List-Id: <debbugs-submit.debbugs.gnu.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/options/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/debbugs-submit/> List-Post: <mailto:debbugs-submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org> List-Help: <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/debbugs-submit>, <mailto:debbugs-submit-request <at> debbugs.gnu.org?subject=subscribe> Errors-To: debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org Sender: "Debbugs-submit" <debbugs-submit-bounces <at> debbugs.gnu.org> X-Spam-Score: -3.3 (---) > It is a bit inconsistent that keys are described as C-x and <return> but = <C- > return>. It would be more logical to write C-<return>. The key parser wil= l > happily accept either, but descriptions without modifiers in <> brackets = are > more legible, and the result is easier to understand and explain. >=20 > Attached is a patch which adapts the code that pretty-prints keys. This i= s a > change for human consumption only; it seems unlikely to affect compatibil= ity. > With the patch, <C-M-backspace> is now printed as C-M-<backspace>. >=20 > I'd be happy to update the manuals accordingly, and add a NEWS entry if > required. Related: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/NaKeD https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/naked.el
bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
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Subject: [PATCH] Pretty-print keys without <> around modifiers
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Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:21:03 +0100
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--Apple-Mail=_AE5A45EA-7EC7-448F-B446-8730928325AE
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It is a bit inconsistent that keys are described as C-x and <return> but =
<C-return>. It would be more logical to write C-<return>. The key parser =
will happily accept either, but descriptions without modifiers in <> =
brackets are more legible, and the result is easier to understand and =
explain.
Attached is a patch which adapts the code that pretty-prints keys. This =
is a change for human consumption only; it seems unlikely to affect =
compatibility. With the patch, <C-M-backspace> is now printed as =
C-M-<backspace>.
I'd be happy to update the manuals accordingly, and add a NEWS entry if =
required.
--Apple-Mail=_AE5A45EA-7EC7-448F-B446-8730928325AE
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--Apple-Mail=_AE5A45EA-7EC7-448F-B446-8730928325AE--
Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@HIDDEN>:bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN.
Full text available.bug-gnu-emacs@HIDDEN:bug#45536; Package emacs.
Full text available.
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