GNU bug report logs - #47416
Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'

Previous Next

To add a comment to this bug, you must first unarchive it, by sending
a message to control AT debbugs.gnu.org, with unarchive 47416 in the body.
You can then email your comments to 47416 AT debbugs.gnu.org in the normal way.

Toggle the display of automated, internal messages from the tracker.

Message #5 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Tim Lee <progscriptclone <at> gmail.com>
To: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 02:12:50 +0800

The last paragraph/sentence in the documentation of 'insert-file-contents' is:

> In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats
> by calling `format-decode', which see.

It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.

"... which see." — See what?

The sentence was introduced by commit bb085aed9593 (2012-12-21).

Message #8 received at 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Philipp <p.stephani2 <at> gmail.com>
To: Tim Lee <progscriptclone <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 19:32:28 +0100

> Am 26.03.2021 um 19:12 schrieb Tim Lee <progscriptclone <at> gmail.com>:
> 
> The last paragraph/sentence in the documentation of 'insert-file-contents' is:
> 
>> In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats
>> by calling `format-decode', which see.
> 
> It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.
> 
> "... which see." — See what?

Apparently this is correct English.  "... X, which see" means roughly "To find out more, look up X."

Message #11 received at 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Tim Lee <progscriptclone <at> gmail.com>
Cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 18:34:09 +0000

[Message part 1 (text/plain, inline)]

>
> The last paragraph/sentence in the documentation of 
> 'insert-file-contents' is:
>
>> In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats 
>> by calling `format-decode', which see.
>
> It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.
>
> "... which see." — See what?
>
> The sentence was introduced by commit bb085aed9593 (2012-12-21).
>

See the Emacs manual Glossary: q.v. Short for "quod vide" in Latin, which 
means "which see".  There are about 400 occurrences of "which see" in the 
Emacs documentation, it means "look at the documentation of the previous 
word/function to find more information".

Message #14 received at 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
To: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:42:30 -0400

It's one more archaism that Emacs refuses to remove.

Ref https://debbugs.gnu.org/28790

Message #17 received at 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 22:09:43 +0300

> From: Glenn Morris <rgm <at> gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:42:30 -0400
> 
> It's one more archaism that Emacs refuses to remove.

It's unfair and unkind to use derogatory language for past decisions
just because you disagree with them.  Please just let go.

Message #20 received at 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 20:27:14 +0000

What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"?  It's not longer (eight 
letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both "which see" and 
"q.v.".

Message #23 received at 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 08:57:01 +0300

> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 20:27:14 +0000
> From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
> cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"?  It's not longer (eight 
> letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both "which see" and 
> "q.v.".

ISTR that past discussions concluded that q.v. would be even more
cryptic.  With "which see", at least native English speakers and those
who are used to scientific literature would immediately understand
what it means.

Message #26 received at 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
To: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
Cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:09:26 +0000

>> What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"?  It's not longer 
>> (eight letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both 
>> "which see" and "q.v.".
>
> ISTR that past discussions concluded that q.v. would be even more 
> cryptic.  With "which see", at least native English speakers and those 
> who are used to scientific literature would immediately understand what 
> it means.
>

The only thing I see in that discussion (bug#28790) is: ""Quod vide" (qv) 
is arguably more conventional, but for those who haven't encountered the 
abbreviation or learned its meaning, it's a much tougher nut to crack." 
So it's about the abbreviation, not about the expression in full.  I just 
tried, finding the meaning of "q.v." is difficult, but finding the meaning 
of "quod vide" is immediate.

I tried to find recent occurrences of "which see" in Google Books and 
Google Scholar, there are none.  There are some occurrences of "on which 
see <reference>" or "for {examples, a discussion, an overview, an 
assessment, ...} of which see <reference>".  It seems that all occurrences 
of "which see" are from the 19th century.

Message #33 received at 47416-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz <at> gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
Cc: 47416-done <at> debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 11:05:12 +0300

tags 47416 wontfix
thanks

> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:09:26 +0000
> From: Gregory Heytings <gregory <at> heytings.org>
> cc: 47416 <at> debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> 
> >> What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"?  It's not longer 
> >> (eight letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both 
> >> "which see" and "q.v.".
> >
> > ISTR that past discussions concluded that q.v. would be even more 
> > cryptic.  With "which see", at least native English speakers and those 
> > who are used to scientific literature would immediately understand what 
> > it means.
> 
> The only thing I see in that discussion (bug#28790) is: ""Quod vide" (qv) 
> is arguably more conventional, but for those who haven't encountered the 
> abbreviation or learned its meaning, it's a much tougher nut to crack." 
> So it's about the abbreviation, not about the expression in full.

That's your interpretation.

Anyway, we already had this discussion, so I'm closing this bug
report.

Message #36 received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org (full text, mbox):

From: Richard Stallman <rms <at> gnu.org>
To: Tim Lee <progscriptclone <at> gmail.com>
Cc: bug-gnu-emacs <at> gnu.org
Subject: Re: bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of
 'insert-file-contents'
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 14:31:39 -0400

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats
  > > by calling `format-decode', which see.

  > It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.

  > "... which see." — See what?

See `format-decode'.

"which see" after some nominal says to go look at that nominal.
It is slightly old-fashioned usage but not obsolete.

There is no obstacle to stating that sentence some other way if that
is clearer.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Previous Next

GNU bug tracking system
Copyright (C) 1999 Darren O. Benham, 1997,2003 nCipher Corporation Ltd, 1994-97 Ian Jackson.