GNU bug report logs - #47971
Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade

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Package: guix; Reported by: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>; Keywords: wontfix; Done: Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN>; Maintainer for guix is bug-guix@HIDDEN.
bug closed, send any further explanations to 47971 <at> debbugs.gnu.org and bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN> Request was from Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.
Added tag(s) wontfix. Request was from Ludovic Courtès <ludo@HIDDEN> to control <at> debbugs.gnu.org. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
From: Leo Prikler <leo.prikler@HIDDEN>
To: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>, Bone Baboon <bone.baboon@HIDDEN>
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2021 20:50:25 +0200
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Am Freitag, den 23.04.2021, 16:23 +0000 schrieb bo0od:
> Not really personal, Its about when there are new users these
> commands 
> looks horrible.
Sorry for informing you, but your sense for aesthetics is a very
personal thing.  If we really want to talk about UX, much more would be
gained by having a translatable GUI than through questionable command
renamings.

> You can call it personal when im saying use this X instead B while X
> and 
> B has the same bad approach or both are good. This is called personal
> e.g:
> 
> use upgrade instead of distro-upgrade = yeah very much is something
> not 
> really benefiting/different and personal.
> 
> but pull or update , reconfigure or system-upgrade...etc this is not 
> anymore personal as i have already explained in my reasoning above.

- guix pull: You "pull" a fresh set of package descriptions.  Note,
that you can't "push" package descriptions *yet*.
- guix upgrade: You "upgrade" a given user profile.
- guix system reconfigure: You "reconfigure" your "system" according to
the specifications made in some file.  Note, that this is not
inherently an upgrade -- it is perfectly fine only to change some
services, to add new ones, or to do all of those three at once.

Of course, there may come times, when you will have to explain to your
less tech-savvy family members or friends, who you've helped install
Guix, why upgrading all of your packages is such a tedious operation,
that involves this funny command line thing.  I've been there and done
that.  It all makes sense if you take a little time to
explain/understand it properly.

Regards,
Leo





Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
To: Bone Baboon <bone.baboon@HIDDEN>
References: <d6318446-4b47-e68d-0ea6-e0755dd52e2b@HIDDEN>
 <878s592fqf.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>
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Not really personal, Its about when there are new users these commands 
looks horrible.

You can call it personal when im saying use this X instead B while X and 
B has the same bad approach or both are good. This is called personal e.g:

use upgrade instead of distro-upgrade = yeah very much is something not 
really benefiting/different and personal.

but pull or update , reconfigure or system-upgrade...etc this is not 
anymore personal as i have already explained in my reasoning above.

Bone Baboon:
> bo0od writes:
>> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
>> friendly to type nor to memorize
> 
> The name of package management commands seems like it would largely be
> personal preference.
> 
> Each person using Guix could customize the commands to their own
> preferences using Bash aliases or an equivalent for the shell they are
> using.  For Bash refer to the Aliases section of it's info
> documentation.
> 
>> - pull -> update or refresh
>> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
>> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>>    system-upgrade
> 
> For command names there are many package managers that you can look to
> for inspiration. Here are some examples:
> 
> * Gentoo - emerge
> * OpenBSD - pkg
> * Void - xbps
> * Alpine - apk
> * Debian - apt
> * Arch - pacam or paru
> * Fedora - dnf
> 
>> OR There is another approach some distros taking which is using
>> shortcuts to only letters e.g
>>
>> pull -> p or -p
>> upgrade -> u or -u
>> reconfigure -> re or -re
> 
> This could also be done with shell aliases.
> 




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

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Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
To: Bone Baboon <bone.baboon@HIDDEN>
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Not really personal, Its about when there are new users these commands 
looks horrible.

You can call it personal when im saying use this X instead B while X and 
B has the same bad approach or both are good. This is called personal e.g:

use upgrade instead of distro-upgrade = yeah very much is something not 
really benefiting/different and personal.

but pull or update , reconfigure or system-upgrade...etc this is not 
anymore personal as i have already explained in my reasoning above.

Bone Baboon:
> bo0od writes:
>> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
>> friendly to type nor to memorize
> 
> The name of package management commands seems like it would largely be
> personal preference.
> 
> Each person using Guix could customize the commands to their own
> preferences using Bash aliases or an equivalent for the shell they are
> using.  For Bash refer to the Aliases section of it's info
> documentation.
> 
>> - pull -> update or refresh
>> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
>> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>>    system-upgrade
> 
> For command names there are many package managers that you can look to
> for inspiration. Here are some examples:
> 
> * Gentoo - emerge
> * OpenBSD - pkg
> * Void - xbps
> * Alpine - apk
> * Debian - apt
> * Arch - pacam or paru
> * Fedora - dnf
> 
>> OR There is another approach some distros taking which is using
>> shortcuts to only letters e.g
>>
>> pull -> p or -p
>> upgrade -> u or -u
>> reconfigure -> re or -re
> 
> This could also be done with shell aliases.
> 




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 47971 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Bone Baboon <bone.baboon@HIDDEN>
To: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
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bo0od writes:
> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
> friendly to type nor to memorize

The name of package management commands seems like it would largely be
personal preference.

Each person using Guix could customize the commands to their own
preferences using Bash aliases or an equivalent for the shell they are
using.  For Bash refer to the Aliases section of it's info
documentation.

> - pull -> update or refresh
> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>   system-upgrade

For command names there are many package managers that you can look to
for inspiration. Here are some examples:

* Gentoo - emerge
* OpenBSD - pkg 
* Void - xbps
* Alpine - apk
* Debian - apt
* Arch - pacam or paru
* Fedora - dnf

> OR There is another approach some distros taking which is using
> shortcuts to only letters e.g
>
> pull -> p or -p
> upgrade -> u or -u
> reconfigure -> re or -re

This could also be done with shell aliases.




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

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From: Bone Baboon <bone.baboon@HIDDEN>
To: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
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bo0od writes:
> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
> friendly to type nor to memorize

The name of package management commands seems like it would largely be
personal preference.

Each person using Guix could customize the commands to their own
preferences using Bash aliases or an equivalent for the shell they are
using.  For Bash refer to the Aliases section of it's info
documentation.

> - pull -> update or refresh
> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>   system-upgrade

For command names there are many package managers that you can look to
for inspiration. Here are some examples:

* Gentoo - emerge
* OpenBSD - pkg 
* Void - xbps
* Alpine - apk
* Debian - apt
* Arch - pacam or paru
* Fedora - dnf

> OR There is another approach some distros taking which is using
> shortcuts to only letters e.g
>
> pull -> p or -p
> upgrade -> u or -u
> reconfigure -> re or -re

This could also be done with shell aliases.




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 47971 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
To: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>
References: <d6318446-4b47-e68d-0ea6-e0755dd52e2b@HIDDEN>
 <87pmylgk8e.fsf@HIDDEN>
From: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>
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 > I don't get what you mean when you say pull is actually the opposite of
 > push? That's true in the sense of the words, but how does that relate to
 > Guix?

git pull , git push -> both are making sense

guix pull, but no guix push -> doesnt make sense as there is no relation 
between pull and other used commands. (thus i suggested to use known 
linked-terms like update,upgrade...etc)

 > You can "downgrade" (switch to using an older Guix/software) by
 > reconfiguring, so I wouldn't like to see that operation referred to as
 > an upgrade (as it's not always)

I see, for example it can be made as upgrade command to always read 
configurations which are only intended for upgrading the system and if 
you want to use downgrade then it will read configurations only intended 
for downgrading the system. (either by using the same config.scm or each 
command point to separated config.scm like upgrade.scm and downgrade.scm...)

by this can run system-upgrade , system-downgrade or 
dist-upgrade/downgrade..etc

Maybe there are better solutions like better terms or technical 
solutions someone can come up with to make things better than the 
current situation.



Christopher Baines:
> 
> bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
>> Hi There,
>>
>> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
>> friendly to type nor to memorize, Current commands:(i dunno if i
>> missed more)
>>
>> guix pull
>> guix upgrade
>> sudo guix reconfigure /etc/config.scm
>>
>>
>> There is no relation can be drawn from using these commands:
>>
>> - pull: Is actually the opposite of push which is a git command and it
>>    make sense in git atmosphere/usage.
> 
> guix pull usually does a git pull under the hood and then builds guix
> from that updated repository.
> 
> I don't get what you mean when you say pull is actually the opposite of
> push? That's true in the sense of the words, but how does that relate to
> Guix?
> 
>> - upgrade: This is the only good one as this is very common term used
>>    within distros or actually most of the operating systems generally.
>>
>> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm: hmm...
>>
>> There are many ways we can improve this by using different better
>> terms which can be easily memorized and even linked e.g: (These are
>> just examples, If there are any better terms you can come with sure
>> why not)
>>
>> - pull -> update or refresh
> 
> I think update is OK, although I think pull is OK too. refresh is
> already taken.
> 
>> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
>> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>>    system-upgrade
> 
> You can "downgrade" (switch to using an older Guix/software) by
> reconfiguring, so I wouldn't like to see that operation referred to as
> an upgrade (as it's not always).
> 




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
To: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>
References: <d6318446-4b47-e68d-0ea6-e0755dd52e2b@HIDDEN>
 <87pmylgk8e.fsf@HIDDEN>
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 > I don't get what you mean when you say pull is actually the opposite of
 > push? That's true in the sense of the words, but how does that relate to
 > Guix?

git pull , git push -> both are making sense

guix pull, but no guix push -> doesnt make sense as there is no relation 
between pull and other used commands. (thus i suggested to use known 
linked-terms like update,upgrade...etc)

 > You can "downgrade" (switch to using an older Guix/software) by
 > reconfiguring, so I wouldn't like to see that operation referred to as
 > an upgrade (as it's not always)

I see, for example it can be made as upgrade command to always read 
configurations which are only intended for upgrading the system and if 
you want to use downgrade then it will read configurations only intended 
for downgrading the system. (either by using the same config.scm or each 
command point to separated config.scm like upgrade.scm and downgrade.scm...)

by this can run system-upgrade , system-downgrade or 
dist-upgrade/downgrade..etc

Maybe there are better solutions like better terms or technical 
solutions someone can come up with to make things better than the 
current situation.



Christopher Baines:
> 
> bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN> writes:
> 
>> Hi There,
>>
>> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
>> friendly to type nor to memorize, Current commands:(i dunno if i
>> missed more)
>>
>> guix pull
>> guix upgrade
>> sudo guix reconfigure /etc/config.scm
>>
>>
>> There is no relation can be drawn from using these commands:
>>
>> - pull: Is actually the opposite of push which is a git command and it
>>    make sense in git atmosphere/usage.
> 
> guix pull usually does a git pull under the hood and then builds guix
> from that updated repository.
> 
> I don't get what you mean when you say pull is actually the opposite of
> push? That's true in the sense of the words, but how does that relate to
> Guix?
> 
>> - upgrade: This is the only good one as this is very common term used
>>    within distros or actually most of the operating systems generally.
>>
>> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm: hmm...
>>
>> There are many ways we can improve this by using different better
>> terms which can be easily memorized and even linked e.g: (These are
>> just examples, If there are any better terms you can come with sure
>> why not)
>>
>> - pull -> update or refresh
> 
> I think update is OK, although I think pull is OK too. refresh is
> already taken.
> 
>> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
>> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>>    system-upgrade
> 
> You can "downgrade" (switch to using an older Guix/software) by
> reconfiguring, so I wouldn't like to see that operation referred to as
> an upgrade (as it's not always).
> 




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at 47971 <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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To: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
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bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN> writes:

> Hi There,
>
> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
> friendly to type nor to memorize, Current commands:(i dunno if i
> missed more)
>
> guix pull
> guix upgrade
> sudo guix reconfigure /etc/config.scm
>
>
> There is no relation can be drawn from using these commands:
>
> - pull: Is actually the opposite of push which is a git command and it
>   make sense in git atmosphere/usage.

guix pull usually does a git pull under the hood and then builds guix
from that updated repository.

I don't get what you mean when you say pull is actually the opposite of
push? That's true in the sense of the words, but how does that relate to
Guix?

> - upgrade: This is the only good one as this is very common term used
>   within distros or actually most of the operating systems generally.
>
> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm: hmm...
>
> There are many ways we can improve this by using different better
> terms which can be easily memorized and even linked e.g: (These are
> just examples, If there are any better terms you can come with sure
> why not)
>
> - pull -> update or refresh

I think update is OK, although I think pull is OK too. refresh is
already taken.

> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>   system-upgrade

You can "downgrade" (switch to using an older Guix/software) by
reconfiguring, so I wouldn't like to see that operation referred to as
an upgrade (as it's not always).

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--=-=-=--




Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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From: Christopher Baines <mail@HIDDEN>
To: bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>
Subject: Re: bug#47971: Improve Guix commands for update/upgrade
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bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN> writes:

> Hi There,
>
> The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not
> friendly to type nor to memorize, Current commands:(i dunno if i
> missed more)
>
> guix pull
> guix upgrade
> sudo guix reconfigure /etc/config.scm
>
>
> There is no relation can be drawn from using these commands:
>
> - pull: Is actually the opposite of push which is a git command and it
>   make sense in git atmosphere/usage.

guix pull usually does a git pull under the hood and then builds guix
from that updated repository.

I don't get what you mean when you say pull is actually the opposite of
push? That's true in the sense of the words, but how does that relate to
Guix?

> - upgrade: This is the only good one as this is very common term used
>   within distros or actually most of the operating systems generally.
>
> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm: hmm...
>
> There are many ways we can improve this by using different better
> terms which can be easily memorized and even linked e.g: (These are
> just examples, If there are any better terms you can come with sure
> why not)
>
> - pull -> update or refresh

I think update is OK, although I think pull is OK too. refresh is
already taken.

> - upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
> - reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or
>   system-upgrade

You can "downgrade" (switch to using an older Guix/software) by
reconfiguring, so I wouldn't like to see that operation referred to as
an upgrade (as it's not always).

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Information forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.

Message received at submit <at> debbugs.gnu.org:


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Hi There,

The current commands used to make sure everything updated are not 
friendly to type nor to memorize, Current commands:(i dunno if i missed 
more)

guix pull
guix upgrade
sudo guix reconfigure /etc/config.scm


There is no relation can be drawn from using these commands:

- pull: Is actually the opposite of push which is a git command and it 
make sense in git atmosphere/usage.

- upgrade: This is the only good one as this is very common term used 
within distros or actually most of the operating systems generally.

- reconfigure /etc/config.scm: hmm...

There are many ways we can improve this by using different better terms 
which can be easily memorized and even linked e.g: (These are just 
examples, If there are any better terms you can come with sure why not)

- pull -> update or refresh
- upgrade -> can be kept or package-upgrade
- reconfigure /etc/config.scm -> dist-upgrade or distro-upgrade or 
system-upgrade

----

OR There is another approach some distros taking which is using 
shortcuts to only letters e.g

pull -> p or -p
upgrade -> u or -u
reconfigure -> re or -re

as a one world for memory "pure" (any other letters can be used as well)

ThX!





Acknowledgement sent to bo0od <bo0od@HIDDEN>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to bug-guix@HIDDEN. Full text available.
Report forwarded to bug-guix@HIDDEN:
bug#47971; Package guix. Full text available.
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